Oklahoma Commercial Air Service Discussion 2012

[venture]

Going to get this going to keep things organized into the New Year. A lot has happened over the last year and we look for a lot more coming up. I wanted to focus this thread on the commercial side of air service and open it up to all of Oklahoma. We aren't like most states that have several commercial airports - we have just a few.

Here is where we are starting 2012 with Commercial service in Oklahoma...

Oklahoma City (KOKC) - Will Rogers World Airport

• Atlanta: Delta (2x M88, 1x CR9, 2x CR7)
• Baltimore: Southwest (1x 73G)
• Chicago Midway: Southwest (Starts June 3rd - 1x 733)
• Chicago O'Hare: American (2x CR7, 2x ER4), United (4x CR7, 1x ER4)
• Dallas/Fort Worth: American (7x M80)
• Dallas Love: Southwest (3x 73G, 2x 733)
• Denver: Frontier (2x 319), Southwest, United (1x 319, 3x ER4)
• Detroit: Delta (2x CR7)
• Houston Hobby: Southwest (4x 733)
• Houston Bush Intercontinental: United (3x DH4, 6x ER4)
• Kansas City: Southwest (1x 73G, 1x 733)
• Las Vegas: Southwest (1x 73G, 1x 733)
• Los Angeles: American (2x CR7) , United (1x CR7)
• Memphis: Delta (3x CRJ)
• Minneapolis/St. Paul: Delta (2x CRJ)
• New York/Newark: United (1x ER4)
• Phoenix: Southwest (2x 73G)
• Salt Lake City: Delta (2x CR7)
• San Francisco: United (1x CR7)
• St. Louis: Southwest (1x 73G, 1x 733)
• Washington Dulles: United (1x CR7)

Tulsa (KTUL) - Tulsa International

• Atlanta: Delta (1x M88, 1x CR9, 3x CR7)
• Chicago O'Hare: American (1x M80, 2x ER4, 1x ERD), United (1x CRJ, 4x ERD)
• Dallas/Fort Worth: American (2x 757, 1x 738, 4x M80, 1x ERD)
• Dallas Love: Southwest (2x 73G, 3x 733, 1x 735)
• Denver: Southwest (2x 73G, 1x 733), United (1x 320, 1x 319, 1x CR7, 1x ER4)
• Detroit: Delta (2x CR7)
• Houston Hobby: Southwest (1x 73G, 2x 733)
• Houston Intercontinental: United (1x 735, 2x DH4, 6x ERJ)
• Las Vegas: Southwest (1x 73G)
• Los Angeles: United (1x CR7)
• Memphis: Delta (3x CRJ)
• Minneapolis/St. Paul: Delta (2x CRJ)
• New York/Newark: United (1x ERJ)
• Phoenix: Southwest (2x 73G)
• Salt Lake City: Delta (1x CR7)
• St. Louis: Southwest (1x 73G, 1x 733)
• Washington Dulles: United (1x CR7)

Lawton (KLAW) - Lawton/Ft. Sill Regional Airport

• Dallas/Fort Worth: American (5x AT7)

Other Oklahoma Airports that use to have recent commercial airline service:

• Enid: http://www.enidairport.com/default.htm
• Guymon
• Ponca City
• Woodward: http://www.cityofwoodward.com/airport-89/

[ljbab728]

Other Oklahoma Airports that use to have recent commercial airline service:

• Enid: http://www.enidairport.com/default.htm
• Guymon
• Woodward: http://www.cityofwoodward.com/airport-89/

Ponca City also had commercial airline service. It ended at the same time that Enid lost their service.

[venture]

Ponca City also had commercial airline service. It ended at the same time that Enid lost their service.

Got it added, forgot about them. Might want to edit your post since the quote is huge. LOL

[damonsmuz]

Anyone know how full the 757'S usually are on DFW-TUL ?

[BB37]

Anyone know how full the 757'S usually are on DFW-TUL ?

I don't have the answer to your question, but that really jumped out at me. How can Tulsa have enough traffic to DFW to justify two 757s per day, but not OKC?

[redrunner]

I don't have the answer to your question, but that really jumped out at me. How can Tulsa have enough traffic to DFW to justify two 757s per day, but not OKC?

Someone with knowledge can probably confirm this but my guess is that they funnel the 757s to TUL for aircraft maintenance at the AA maintenance base.

[Barry Clark]

I don't have the answer to your question, but that really jumped out at me. How can Tulsa have enough traffic to DFW to justify two 757s per day, but not OKC?

757 load factors are typically in the low 70% range for Tulsa but aircraft assigned to the Tulsa-DFW route have far more to do with the logistics of routing aircraft out of the Tulsa maintenance facility than with demand characteristics of the route. As a result, overall load factors for TUL-DFW are usually 5-10 points lower than for OKC-DFW.

[bluedogok]

I know the Frontier flights that I took from Denver to OKC and back over Christmas were very full. It was the first time that I have flown into Will Rogers since the remodel and I even worked a little bit on that project. They did very nice job on it, so much better than the old terminal. I am sure we will be flying to OKC more since we will both be in Denver full time in February, it just didn't make much sense flying from Austin to OKC since there was no direct flight and there are several from DIA.

[damonsmuz]

I know we've talked about this in the past, but the ball is rolling here. USAir is starting service from Charlotte to Des Moines and Omaha. With USAir breaking back into the Central Plains, any rumor of them coming to Oklahoma within the year?

[venture]

I know we've talked about this in the past, but the ball is rolling here. USAir is starting service from Charlotte to Des Moines and Omaha. With USAir breaking back into the Central Plains, any rumor of them coming to Oklahoma within the year?

The Des Moines and Omaha service is a little misleading. First they are both already served by US Airways to PHX & LAS. Due to the LGA/DCA slot swap with Delta, they are taking over DCA (Washington National) to both OMA and DSM. To make things make a bit more sense, they are adding in flights to a traditional hub - their strongest - in CLT. So this really doesn't have anything to do with a new initiative to get back into the Midwest and Plains more so replacing Delta and connecting dots.

I'm still hearing 2013 before they make a large push back into the Midwest/Great Lakes/Plains, but that could be up in the air should they pursue to purchase American.

[bombermwc]

What no service between Tulsa and OKC? LOL....

[damonsmuz]

Bomber: Here's your OKC-TUL service http://flightaware.com/live/flight/FDX347

OK, so you may have to pack yourself up in a FEDEX box and be shipped, but it still counts right FYI, I hear the in-flight entertainment on this leg is not the best... nor are the free drinks

[venture]

What no service between Tulsa and OKC? LOL....

Careful, Delta use to operate it daily and then Great Plains did it as well. :-)

[rayhurst]

AA runs a seasonal 737 TUL-MIA route from Nov to Apr:

http://www.aa.com/i18n/aboutUs/newSe...false&from=Nav

[poe]

Think there will be an increase in Seattle-OKC traffic with today's Boeing announcement?

[Snowman]

Think there will be an increase in Seattle-OKC traffic with today's Boeing announcement?

I would expect a larger increase in trips to San Antonio than Seattle, since that is where the majority of work for the projects they are associated with is being done, though it will still be fairly small compared to general traffic.

[venture]

Think there will be an increase in Seattle-OKC traffic with today's Boeing announcement?

I would hope, but I don't think these jobs will drive much to Seattle. Boeing HQ is in Chicago now, but like Snowman said...SAT has a bigger tie to them. SAT traffic will be served via American and Southwest through Dallas. Boeing employed thousands in Wichita, on both commercial and military side, but nonstop service to Seattle failed there miserably. The OKC-SEA O&D market is pretty decent and I really think Alaska could make it work if they wanted to, especially with rotating aircraft here for maintenance. However, it will be hard for people to give up fly Southwest/United/Frontier through Denver which is just as easy.

[ljbab728]

Careful, Delta use to operate it daily and then Great Plains did it as well. :-)

The Delta service was really just an afterthought with a plane operating between OKC, Tulsa, and Salt Lake. The service between OKC and Tulsa was never significant.

[venture]

The Delta service was really just an afterthought with a plane operating between OKC, Tulsa, and Salt Lake. The service between OKC and Tulsa was never significant.

Yeah I'm aware of that. It was back when they use to do extensive tagging of flights. Up through the late 90s you could get on the same flight number that would make 5 stops until it go to its final destination.

Bomber, I know you were. :-) Not sure LJ picked up on it though. LOL

[ljbab728]

Bomber, I know you were. :-) Not sure LJ picked up on it though. LOL

Yes, I understood that. My response was just for information purposes.

[bombermwc]

Come on guys, i was just joking. Although i have been on Delta flights before that went from OKC to TUL on their way to other places.

[OUman]

I've flown between OKC and TUL back in '96 twice when I flew with my mom and sister connecting at ATL for overseas connections (both inbound and outbound). The plane was full both times, then again there were plenty of days for that leg to be half empty or very empty, but I thought I would make that observation. It was operated either with a 737-200 or 727-200 Advanced. The west-bound run used to be something like ATL-TUL-OKC-SLC-SJC, then the reverse route was the opposite of that. But back in the day Delta and many other airlines had more point-to-point flying, I remember American had a flight on OKC-DFW-BNA-TYS (BNA being Nashville Metro Int'l and TYS being Knoxville McGhee-Tyson Airport). Operated by the good ol' Fokker 100 (pronounced FOLK-er). Which I've had the pleasure of flying in btw.

The only airline that still has such multi-stop flights today is Southwest. Then again, Southwest's model is point-to-point, not hub and spoke, the airports where it has a dominance is simply because those are "major" points-where so many flights pass through that it gives the impression of being a hub.

As far as OKC though, I think 2012 will be a pretty good year for passenger traffic, barring any unforseen challenges of course. Nice to see two DL mainliners to anywhere :P.

[venture]

I've flown between OKC and TUL back in '96 twice when I flew with my mom and sister connecting at ATL for overseas connections (both inbound and outbound). The plane was full both times, then again there were plenty of days for that leg to be half empty or very empty, but I thought I would make that observation. It was operated either with a 737-200 or 727-200 Advanced. The west-bound run used to be something like ATL-TUL-OKC-SLC-SJC, then the reverse route was the opposite of that. But back in the day Delta and many other airlines had more point-to-point flying, I remember American had a flight on OKC-DFW-BNA-TYS (BNA being Nashville Metro Int'l and TYS being Knoxville McGhee-Tyson Airport). Operated by the good ol' Fokker 100 (pronounced FOLK-er). Which I've had the pleasure of flying in btw.

I miss the F-100s. Remember those on US through the Northeast. Nice little jet that was super quiet. Yeah the Westbound flight normally was ATL-TUL-OKC-SLC, but I want to say sometimes they swapped the OKC and TUL stops around. Delta loved their single flight numbers spanning the country. There was an a.net thread about this a year or so ago and some of them were crazy. ATL to Bangor, ME in the 80s had 3 stops en route. One of the airports that was west of were I grew up had a flight that went something like TOL-ATL-BHM-SHV-DFW-SLC-RNO. Great for someone who loved the 727, but sucked if you wanted to get to Reno before dark. LOL

The only airline that still has such multi-stop flights today is Southwest. Then again, Southwest's model is point-to-point, not hub and spoke, the airports where it has a dominance is simply because those are "major" points-where so many flights pass through that it gives the impression of being a hub.

As far as OKC though, I think 2012 will be a pretty good year for passenger traffic, barring any unforseen challenges of course. Nice to see two DL mainliners to anywhere :P.

Eh I think the notion of them not having a hub/spoke system is out the window now. They pretty much caved and called their main stations hubs now and do a good deal of connecting traffic. They still offer a lot of point-to-point O&D traffic, but not like they use to.

As far as 2012 outlook goes, we'll probably see decent growth around 3-5% for the year. Even with a US Airways take over of American, it shouldn't hurt us too much...probably the opposite.

Potential growth markets would be MDW - could go to 2 daily on Southwest and might see mainline return on the other guys to O'Hare Field. ATL we could see Southwest add in a couple of flights and add'l mainline from Delta to compete.

Potential lost markets...Denver could take a hit with the 3 way race to demolition there. Kansas City or St. Louis might lose a flight if Chicago does well.

New Entrants...eh, hard to say. JetBlue would be nice, but I think they are a long shot. Allegiant would be as well, but Florida from OKC is horrible and they won't bother going west from here. US Airways to CLT or PHL would be nice and should have happened a long time ago.

[Video Expert]

As far as OKC though, I think 2012 will be a pretty good year for passenger traffic, barring any unforseen challenges of course. Nice to see two DL mainliners to anywhere :P.

I think OKC could have so much more traffic if it weren't for some ridiculous fares at times when compared to other nearby airports. I along with co-workers have flown 40+ times since early 2011 and about a third of the time, we've ended up booking out of DAL, DFW, TUL, or ICT because the fares can be drastically cheaper from those locations. I'm talking some significant fare differences here, so I'm not being such a tightwad that I'd drive to Dallas or Tulsa just to save a total of $200 for my company or anything. For example,...from OKC to CHS last month on WN, it was going to cost $2600 round trip for four of us. And that's booking 14 + days in advance. Instead, I booked where we carpooled to Love Field and all got round trip tickets for a total of $1280. So basically, it would have cost my company more than double just for the four of us to fly the 30 minutes from OKC to DAL and then catch the same flight to CHS as opposed to just the fare from DAL to CHS. Of course, we had a couple of stops on the way courtesy of the Wright Amendment, but it was the same connection. Why such higher prices in our market?? It happens all the time.

Another example...OKC to LAS for 4 people ran $1,600 round trip on WN. It was about the same on other carriers, but there are layovers. (Damn, I miss Champion) Now simply drive the two+ hrs to ICT and fly Allegiant, and pay round trip non-stop for around $760. Factor in the gas to and from Wichita and you're still over $800 ahead for that trip alone. Amazing! For all you high rollers out there, please don't laugh. But if you are a small business owner in this economy trying to run a lean ship, this all adds up over time.

I can't be the only small business in OKC that occasionally books corporate travel for multiple employees from other nearby airports in order to save thousands in travel costs over the course of the year. OKC to anywhere is NEVER the lower fare, which isn't the issue. If it's reasonably close, then OKC it is. I understand we're not a hub and have to connect many times for many destinations. It's just that about a third of the time, it seems the fares to some destinations from OKC are extremely out of whack compared to other airports...even others that have to connect in Dallas, Denver, Atlanta, or Chicago.

Why such a difference? Will this ever change???

[ljbab728]

I can't be the only small business in OKC that occasionally books corporate travel for multiple employees from other nearby airports in order to save thousands in travel costs over the course of the year. OKC to anywhere is NEVER the lower fare, which isn't the issue. If it's reasonably close, then OKC it is. I understand we're not a hub and have to connect many times for many destinations. It's just that about a third of the time, it seems the fares to some destinations from OKC are extremely out of whack compared to other airports...even others that have to connect in Dallas, Denver, Atlanta, or Chicago.

Why such a difference? Will this ever change???

Video, I'm not saying you didn't have that problem but sentiments that fares are always higher from OKC are simply not true. I deal with airline fares every day and have for many years so I follow what's going on closely. I have seen an occasion where a passenger who wanted to originate in Dallas actually flew to OKC first and then back his destination through Dallas because it saved money. Airline fares can fluctuate wildly and sometimes it's just the luck of the draw based on when you book as to which city might be less expensive.

There are a few areas such as the Northeast and Denver in particular where fares have dropped signficantly compared to what they were a few years ago from OKC.