My vision for downtown

[Pete]

I would really like to see OKC try and put a multi-purpose stadium downtown and if I could choose one area, it would be on the site of the ugly "co-op":




The stadium could be built in two stages, the first being a 30,000 seat venue used for MLS soccer, high school football and maybe an OU and/or OSU scrimmage or two. Could also be used for track & field and various other events.

Then, it could be expanded later so OKC could bid for the BIG XII chamipionship football game and even an upstart bowl game. Heck, if Boise can have one, why not the town that supports college athletics better than anyplace?

[mranderson]

I would really like to see OKC try and put a multi-purpose stadium downtown and if I could choose one area, it would be on the site of the ugly "co-op":




The stadium could be built in two stages, the first being a 30,000 seat venue used for MLS soccer, high school football and maybe an OU and/or OSU scrimmage or two. Could also be used for track & field and various other events.

Then, it could be expanded later so OKC could bid for the BIG XII chamipionship football game and even an upstart bowl game. Heck, if Boise can have one, why not the town that supports college athletics better than anyplace?

I agree in principal, but not size. The stadium, a dome, should be at least 60,000 capacity. Yes. It can hold some of the events you mention, including the bowl game. We have proposed the name "Heartland Castle, " and "Heartland Bowl." It could attract an NFL franchise (yes, I know the nay sayer, and I am sick of hearing the negitive attitudes), a Presidential nominating convention, the final four and more. We could fill it year round.

We have proposed the dome in the form of a castle to make it unique.

Oh. Supports college sports better than anyplace? I think that is a stretch.

[Pete]

My only thought was that a scalable stadium would be easier to get built in the short-term, although of course a huge domed stadium would be fantastic.


And what city supports college athletics better than OKC?

[mranderson]

My only thought was that a scalable stadium would be easier to get built in the short-term, although of course a huge domed stadium would be fantastic.


And what city supports college athletics better than OKC?

My point was other cities support college athletics equally. Hense, a stretch.

[bubfloyd]

MalibuSooner wrote: I would really like to see OKC try and put a multi-purpose stadium downtown and if I could choose one area, it would be on the site of the ugly "co-op":

I wouldn't say ugly. It's a grain yard with lots of interesting and unusual metal structures. Much like the Purnia operation just West of Western North of Main. It has its own unique asthetic. In many ways, very cool. Another major sports venue is much less important than providing the infrastructure to support more urban residential development. I con't think the Coop is going anywhere in the near future. So, a stadium at that location is a moot point.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

[Pete]

1. Sports / events venues are largely responsible for the start of the downtown revival.

2. Housing and a stadium are not mutually exclusive concepts and in fact the former could only help the latter.

3. I appreciate that aesthetics are a matter of personal tastes, but if OKC is hoping to attract outside development I don't think too many people are going to be impressed with a series of grain silos in an area soon to be the gateway to downtown.

4. How is this "getting ahead of ourselves"? How do you get ahead without a starting point?

[mranderson]

I will add. Getting ahead is the best course of action. The person (etc) who does not plan ahead, shoots himself in the foot when the action IS needed.

We need to plan for these things NOW, not when we have things to fill them.

[Midtowner]

Here is an excellent paper (although a bit old) explaining why OKC is not a good candidate for major league franchises at this point.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

Talking about a stadium like this as if it is in the near future is dreaming at best. OKC just does not hae the population density, geographic location, exclusiveness of services or overall population to support one of the top-4 franchises like they need to be supported.

Want a starting point? Maybe having an AFL team instead of an AFL2 team would be a start. I'm a season ticket holder for the Yard Dawgz, but it's a minor league to a minor league.

[Pete]

That's a very interesting analysis.


In addition to their two main points, I would also say that the lack of larger corporations is also a big (if not bigger) barrier.

The majority of revenues from pro sports comes through the sale of luxury suites and season tickets. Typically, large companies buy both for use of their employees and to entertain clients.

OKC's biggest employers are the state, Tinker, and school districts -- not good candidates for buying lots of luxury suites.

For football, I think the limited market has already been well tapped due at OU and OSU. And for sports such as basketball and hockey, you have many more games you need to sell.

I'd love OKC to get a pro franchise but I think the sounder marketing plan would be to focus on semi-pro (and MLS) and amateur sports for the short-term.

[Pete]

Please remember that areas as big as the one occupied for the coop were cleared for the Galleria, Cox Convention Center and the Myriad Gardens.

You could argue the wisdom of that scrape and rebuild mentality but it's been done in that area in the past -- several times, actually.


As the Oklahoma River continues to evolve, I hate the thought of the coop sitting between it and downtown/BT.

[HOT ROD]

That's a very interesting analysis.


In addition to their two main points, I would also say that the lack of larger corporations is also a big (if not bigger) barrier.

The majority of revenues from pro sports comes through the sale of luxury suites and season tickets. Typically, large companies buy both for use of their employees and to entertain clients.

OKC's biggest employers are the state, Tinker, and school districts -- not good candidates for buying lots of luxury suites.

For football, I think the limited market has already been well tapped due at OU and OSU. And for sports such as basketball and hockey, you have many more games you need to sell.

I'd love OKC to get a pro franchise but I think the sounder marketing plan would be to focus on semi-pro (and MLS) and amateur sports for the short-term.

Malibu, unfortunately

You are thinking in terms of numbers of people employed. But actually, OKC has lots of corporations and at least five in the Fortune 1000, 3 in Fortune 500 - I believe. You make these lists due to your revenue generation, not necessarily employment numbers. The state government is the next largest employer, much larger than the school systems.

Sure, Tinker is the largest employer in the state in terms of number of employees but Devon, Kerr McGee, Sonic, Chesapeke, Mid First, Bank of Oklahoma, OGE, on and on .. all have revenue generation substantially higher than Tinker (if it was rated as a private corporation).

Honestly, I dont think OKC has any trouble with corporate base, OKC has problems with public support! Plain and simple, otherwise our cable market would be larger, our sporting events would be standing room only, every event here would receive top press (instead of the media here listing our pro team's scores as an afterthought after going over the NFL or MLB).

Plain and simple, OKC get out and support WHAT YOU HAVE! Demand major league and someone will give it to you! And all of the corporate boxes will be filled (as they currently are at Ford and SBC Bricktown Ballpark!)

[Karried]

MalibuSooner, without people such as yourself, nothing would ever get done.... it's good to plan and dream - now if we can just make some of these visions reality - we'll be on our way.

[bubfloyd]

All points well taken. I'm not sure what the OKC 2020 Comprehensive Plan has to say about a stadium of this size,

Originally Posted by MalibuSooner
1. Sports / events venues are largely responsible for the start of the downtown revival.

I would disagree with "largely". An important part certainly, that being the baseball park. The Ford Center is mostly an entertainment venue, and a very popular one with booking agents, not primarily a sports venue. Also, there is much data to demonstrate that in total, sports don't pay the bills. It's just a dollar swap. Cultural facilities do. The Music Hall and the Norick Library. Tne OKC Museum of Art, though many people believe it is a MAPS project, is all private money and a big grant from The Reynolds Foundation.

In the end, it's the total package that makes for an improved quality of life for all OKCityians. Sprots, retail, cultural, recreation etc. Quality of life is the filter through which all public policy decisions should go. Our present success has come from public projects that benefit us, taking out time and paying as we go. We're not mortaging our future chasing some bogus quick fix.

[Patrick]

I think you guys are all on the right track, and MalibuSooner, I love you're dreaming. Keep it up! Without dreamers like you, MAPS never would've happened. I remember back in 1992 when people in our city looked at the plans for MAPS and laughed. Imagining an entertainment district downtown back then was a far stretch. But, we had dreamers like Ron Norick who put this plan into place, with the help of over 50% of our residents voting for MAPS.

I actually have mixed emotions about the Co-op! It is a landmark to our city, but at the same time, it makes our city look hickish. Regardless, I guess it's moot point, because the Co-op won't be moving. I still think a location on the river would be nice for a stadium/dome in the near future. But, I do agree with Midtowner that we're not quite there yet.

At this point, MLS might be our best shot, but even that's a long shot. Tulsa probably has a leg up on us there.

Malibu, you're so right in your assessment of the coporate market in our city. At the present time, we don't have a large enough corporate community to support a pro team. With more companies entering the market like Dell though, hopefully that will change. Right now, instead of focusing on buildig stadiums and the like, we probably need to be focusing on attracting more businesses to our city and growing the businesses we already have.

Of course, now is a good time to start thinking about a stadium and commuter rail transit!

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

There is no reason we do not host a bcs bowl. There is no reason we don't host one of the big ones for crying out loud!

[Midtowner]

There is no reason we do not host a bcs bowl. There is no reason we don't host one of the big ones for crying out loud!

We could start a whole new thread on that.

BCS Bowls are all, without exception located in cities where summer and winter are difficult to distinguish -- also, they are all, without exception popular tourist destination cities.

Where does OKC fit on this list:

Tempe,
Pasadena,
Miami,
New Orleans

With the current talk being that there are already too many bowl games, I don't personally see new ones being added -- least of all in or around Oklahoma City.

[Pete]

it's moot point, because the Co-op won't be moving.

I know there are no present plans to move it...

But what makes doing it so impossible?



I'm asking an honest question because I don't know that much about the facility.

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

Actually winter is quite tropical in Oklahoma compared to the rest of the nation.

[Patrick]

Interestingly, the Co-op was listed at one of OKC's top 25 architecturally significant structure a few years back! But, I guess so was the old Hopewell Baptist Church out in far northwest OKC.

[JOHNINSOKC]

Does anyone know if there are future plans to relocate that CO-OP plant somewhere else?? It really looks like an eyesore. Plus, it would really open the area up for more development, the kind we really need right now. I could see some new hotels going up there.

[bubfloyd]

The grain Coop land is as available as any other piece of real estate. I'm sure they would be glad to move to a more modern new facility as long as it had a rail siding and there was enough money in it. The question is why use mega-bucks to move a successful (as far as I know) business for no useful reason. Especially to put a foot ball stadium on prime property that close to downtown Look at an arial map of OKC. There is land-o-plenty for a stadium in the unlikely event that we ever really needed one.

Now don't go hanging some anti-sports label on me, but there are enough half empty football stadiums and dumb-ass bowl games. Pro football in OKC? "The OKC Dell Nerds". You gotta love it. How about putting our efforts into developing a world-class professional regional theatrical center instead? The arts are the answer; performing and visual. Look at the public reaction to the new art museum. Attendance, from around the city, from around the state and from around the nation along with new memberships are through the roof. And on the roof, every Thursday evening starting in May, "Cocktails on The Roof". A wonderful weekly urban gathering. And the film program at the OKCMOA is top shelf. Titles only dreamed about just a few years ago. Grow the arts and the arts will grow the city.

I think the odds are better that 50/50 that Gerald Green will come to OSU. Go Pokes.

[Pete]

Whether we actually build a stadium or not, I'd really like city leaders to start thinking about relocating the co-op.

It stands between downtown and all the great things happening there and the river, which has unlimited potential.

Also, I hate the idea of visitors to the city seeing those structures as they cruise through on the new Crosstown or exit the freeway to get to DT/BT.


Is this the image of a progressive city with a vital urban core?

[BG918]

OKC doesn't need a new stadium or an NFL team, at least within the next 20 years. I would like to see AFL arena football in an expanded Ford Center though in the near future. The NBA would also make a nice addition 10-15 years down the road. OU and OSU are the big dogs here, with UCO possibly getting D-1 status in the future.

The area you mentioned as a good site for a stadium will be perfect for additional downtown development south of Bricktown once I-40 is rebuilt. There are some exciting plans for development just north of Bricktown being developed by TAP Architecture/Planning of OKC. Some of the proposals are currently on display here at the OU architecture gallery and are part of the Triangle and Hill developments. They look very cool and very urban, more urban than anything OKC has done in awhile. They include lots of residential but also have retail and things like grocery stores and pharmacies outlined as well. Something along these lines, a true urban neighborhood, would fit in better in the area south of Bricktown and north of the river. If you are in Norman within the next couple of weeks I would encourage you to check out some of the proposals by Hanz Butzer (principal of TAP) and Linda Klein involving urban development and light rail in downtown OKC.

[Pete]

Hot Rod, if you read my post more closely you'll see I listed the state as one of the largest employers.

I am well aware of the companies you mentioned but that list does not compare favorably to even the smallest "big league" cities.

Of the three major sports venues, one is sponsored by the local cable TV company and the other two by businesses HQed elsewhere. That speaks volumes.

[HOT ROD]

Hot Rod, if you read my post more closely you'll see I listed the state as one of the largest employers.

I am well aware of the companies you mentioned but that list does not compare favorably to even the smallest "big league" cities.

Of the three major sports venues, one is sponsored by the local cable TV company and the other two by businesses HQed elsewhere. That speaks volumes.

True:

But companies all over sponsor events in cities. Just because a company is headquartered in your city does not mean that they will sponsor events there. Take Gaylord Enterprises, for instance, headquartered in OKC - a private company, but what do they sponsor in OKC? Nothing!!!

What do they sponsor in Nashville? Almost any and everything!

Another Example that you are familiar of, is US Cellular - not hq in OKC but they recently were the major sponsor for an OKC event (I forget which one). They did not have to do that but they did, to show their support for OKC.

There are even cases where corporations will sponsor an event in a city where they don t even have a presence! What Im trying to say is it is very difficult to point at corporate presence as an indicator for your city. Corporations do whatever will make them the greatest return on their investment dollar. Often, this means you need to advertise not in your home market, but where the visibility exists. I know WAMU (based here in Seattle with no OKC presence) recently sponsored a high profile event in OKC, because it was high profile!

This is why OKC should focus on attracting sports teams! because OKC will get visibility and corporations from all over would want to sponsor here!

True, OKC may not have the corporate presence (at least major corporation) that other big cities have but with the global economy that does not mean much anymore. Dollars and advertising go where visible events take place, which is why nearly every company on earth has some sort of advertising in Las Vegas, Chicago, and New York - even though they may not have a presence there (esp Vegas).

We should shoot for a piece of that advertising dollars through additional major events and not get caught up on our lack of major corporations, relatively speaking.