Why is there so much anger on Internet forums?

[Pete]

I've been around the 'net since it's inception and have ran a bunch of different forums and participated in many more, but the anger and hostility that is often the norm can still shock me on occasion.

Even here -- where everyone either lives in or comes from Oklahoma, a place famous for friendliness -- the most innocuous threads tend to take an angry and even acrimonious turn. Someone could post about their favorite corn dog and by the second page of discussion, we'll be calling each other idiots for preferring thick batter to the thinner variety or some other trivial point of disagreement.

I just don't get it. I also don't expect to change it and therefore have to accept it here, even though I feel a strong sense of ownership (literally and figuratively).


There are some times it bothers me more than others, though, and today was one of those days. Hence the post.


BTW, I'm not trying to be high-and-mighty here because I can lose my cool as well or simply make a bad assumption that leads me down a dark path. But today is one of those days where I reaffirm a promise to myself to try and be nice, even when others aren't providing the same courtesy.


My dad used to say this (not sure where he heard it): "I choose to treat any man as a gentleman, not because he is one but because I am one."

I always try to keep that in mind.

[RadicalModerate]

Kudos to you, Sir . . . and to your Dad.
(For Real: No kidding, no joke, no sarcasm, no snark.)

And thanks--from a Newbie--for the light-handed reminders that "this" is YOUR house.

Since you asked: I think "the anger on the Internet" is simply a means of venting in response to a lack of justice, kindness and common sense in the real world.

[Thunder]

One of the main problem is the anonymity. With only a nickname/username, it tend to bring out the worse in people. Also, people tend to get carried away so easily that its considered the norm these days on the Internet. What I can say is that when people diss each other online, its rarely that way in person. Hell, people could diss each other on here without being aware that they are friendly to each other in person and/or know each other through friendship or family member. Its just that people feel safer to speak their mind online, but there is a line that tend to be broken, which is the respect for each other.

Some people have different methods for releasing whatever they want. Most prefer the Internet as to not burden their family and friends. As Pete said recently, some people do use OKCTalk (in proper location) for support system...to vent...rant...etc...within acceptable guidelines. Its impossible to avoid people slamming each other when the best course of action is to remain silent if nothing good/supportive can be said. The Internet...discussion forums...chats...all are powerful tools and lifesaver to many people. Sadly, there are those that just do not understand and enjoy bashing people...but, the main focus is to provide education for those sort of people such as telling them to respect people the way they want to be respected.

[Double Edge]

If this were my forum and my primary interest was development (as it seems to be,) I'd kill the politics section. The only other way to keep it and make it less volatile and ugly is to be much more heavy handed than I think you want to be.

[Pete]

Yes, the anonymity makes it easy to vent but why people feel the need is the bigger question. What is everybody so angry about in the first place?


I've toyed with the idea of having everyone here post under their real names but I know that would be death for the forum.

[adaniel]

I would have no problem posting under my real name since my user name is is so close to it anyway. A lot of news sites' comments sections now require users to post under a facebook account. If you have a social network account you have far less privacy than you think. Whats so different about your profile on Facebook vs having a profile on OKCTalk?

As far as the anger, well unfortunately we live in an increasingly angry society. And an anonymous internet forum will be the first place to feel it given the fact that so many avenues for outward emotional expression in our society are very repressed nowadays. But I'll spare you all of my ramblings. Even in very friendly Oklahoma, people are just in a natural pissy mood. Maybe its the economy, the poor job market that has caused people to be stressed at work, the hideous weather as of late burning people out.

Part of it is also the fact that society in general has become a lot less personal. We don't call anyone to see how they are, we just shoot a text message saying "R U Ok". We don't meetup with friends we sit and have AIM or Facebook chat. Sorry, but even someone who is fairly young I can tell you its not the same thing. The is something emotionally numbing about trying to express yourself through a computer. Its shocking at my job how many so called professionals I deal with will send my emails IN ALL CAPS with lots of EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!! not knowing this is the same as yelling and very rude IMO. Perhaps in this increasingly unpersonal world where true relationships are becoming less and less common its no longer a big deal to fire off a message on an internet forum telling someone to go to hell for favoring the wrong Corn Dog batter. Its really sad, and I don't see it getting any better.

On the upside, I participate in several internet forums (OKC Talk, City-Data, Camaro 5, Sooner Fans, plus some other news sites), and OKC Talk is pretty mild. This is a great site and it does indeed have a lot of passionate people. Yes some can get a little ahead of themselves, but its nothing a sternly worded PM can't fix. I just want to say that this site is a valuable asset to the community, and I would hope a few screamers in the balcony aren't going to derail it anytime soon.

[HewenttoJared]

What is everybody so angry about in the first place?

People who demonize and advocate for the destruction of our way of life.

I think using verified FB profiles like many sites are doing would be a great way to calm things down.

[Thunder]

Well...everyone is angry at the world. Its just that phase and can only be changed, which I believe, when we finally get into serious space exploration with the world becoming united rather than split country by country.

Requiring us to use our real name is a huge NO-NO, because it takes away our identity protection. It may prevent bad behaviors, but it can pose a serious security/identity risk. Like what Facebook is doing is a huge NO-NO, because they failed to follow what MySpace did...keep our anonymity. There was a recent protest against Google+ for enforcing us to use real name that was too much the same as Facebook.

First name will be fine, I guess, but last name....hell no. I just do not want to risk it. That doesn't mean that I'm hidden or anything like that since people know me and know where to find me, etc, but I just don't want it publicly out there for the thousands of people that I do not know.

[venture]

I've operated several message boards over the years, worked in customer service industries, and all around have been exposed to the public. There has been a tremendous shift over the like 3-4 years where people have become just downright hateful online or over the phone. It seems people, when they know they don't have to face the person in real life, will say whatever they want because there are no repercussions for such behavior. Whether in a customer service capacity where my employees would be dealing with the public and get absolutely torn apart over the phone, or on a message board...it is just a sad state we are in.

As much of a techno geek that I am, I have to blame technology. I remember just a few years ago I would talk to all of my friends at least once on the phone, or in person, per week. Now? A random text message or facebook post and that is it. There has been a complete shift where patience is gone and people want immediate responses or results - without having to speak or see someone. The dawn of the current social media has been the tool for the population to turn into zombies that are becoming more incompetent to communicate in an in person social setting. It is also allowing people to express themselves, right or wrong, in ways that they feel will have no consequences (i.e. politicians). Also look at all the newspaper or TV station websites and the comments left. People don't care what they say even if it is racist, hateful, vulgar, etc. What is going to happen to them? Nothing 99% of the time.

I can appreciate the frustration from owning a message board on how to drive the community to be less hateful or just plain out rude. I've been part of forums where real names are required (and they do verification). Not even then do the trolls stay away. People let their egos and carelessness take control and they express themselves in all their ugliness. I have started to see a trend where more forums are restricting new posters from their posting ability and also even requiring some to mention references (of existing forum members) in order to be cleared to join. I just feel that we are in a state right now where, as a forum manager, the abilities to ensure a clean/safe/cordial environment is just too limited. We have a choice of either dealing with it, posting our disapproval, or banning the person. Then we run into the issue of people claiming we are censoring.

Overmoderation is always a risk, but sometimes it is needed to get things under control - if it is widespread. Some of the main forums I participate in, but don't manage, have extensive moderation staffing. Airlines.net is a great example. They have probably 24-30 moderators and if you get the least bit out of line, they delete the post and action your account with a warning. To me, that is a bit overkill as you don't have any recourse if you are pegged and anything you've contributed (even if the violation was just two words out of a long post) is gone for good. Then let's look at Stormtrack.org. They are a site that has had its ups and downs and also required real names to be used by everyone. Sometimes things get a bit pissy, but the mods step in and diffuse the situations rather quickly. Here, it has been a much more laid back moderation style, but I've definitely seen Pete & Mmm step it up (granted I have a feeling more people are using the report post feature than before). The vast majority of the forum is great with little issue, but we have our hot spots.

Is there any way to make an internet forum anger free again? No. As moderators we each take ownership of the sites under our watch and do what we feel is best. I've had my moments where I have gotten a bit pissy in the past, as we all have, so I need to hold myself accountable for those posts. I think though that some ignore that duty of accountability and just post whatever they want with reckless regard, and those are the people that truly ruin it for the rest of us. Majority of us can have a heated debate and still like or are respectful to each other at the end of the day. However, we will always have the trolls that are just here to get under people's skin and provide absolutely no value to the site as a whole. We know who those people are and have the ignore (and report post) feature to deal with them.

I've been very surprised that Pete has decided to keep the Politics section as it is. For those of us that have been here awhile remember the more rambunctious off topic area where things got very heated and hateful. It got deleted and things calmed down. The politics section sort of took over as that area of the forum where people feel they can behave without worry of who they impact by the words they type. We all remember how ugly it got around here in 2008 and I have a fear it is going to be even worse next year. This is just a smaller look at the issue with the country as a whole though, so it isn't shocking. How Pete decides to handle it is completely up to him. I just hope that those whom choose to participate here spend some more time thinking about the jokes, "news" stories, or other rhetoric they post and figure out how much value it really provides to the OKCTalk community and who it impacts. Are people posting things just to get a reaction or are they wanting to start an thoughtful discussion to exchange ideas.

There also has to be some consideration made for evaluating "are we giving trolls the resources to behave as they do?" Could moderation be stronger? It is a hard balance, and one I struggle with daily. Do certain areas incite or assist with this behavior? Possibly. I've seen many forums that had off topic areas completely remove them due to the trolls and anger taking over. The biggest thing though, how can we as a community assist in improving things? This one really shouldn't be hard. If we want our community (OKCTalk or other forums) to improve we need to empowering those that spread anger and utilize ignore, report post, or just outright disregard any comments they make on threads. Does that mean we don't participate? Not at all. Just means some threads are going to have 80% of the posts with the message "so and so is on your ignore list" when trying to view posts. If you haven't tried it yet, please do so. It helps. And when we stop giving attention to those that must act like 15 year olds (I'm probably being disrespectful to most 15 year olds right now), ideally they will give up and go find a new forum to troll. We've seen them come and go here. Yes they get replaced by a new crop every few months, but they will eventually leave too. Some of us have been here for years...it is our responsibility to help ensure things are welcoming to new people looking for a legitimate place to discuss common interests and hopefully keep those that are just here to be negative or toot their own agenda away.

Okay book done. Sorry. LOL

[Ginkasa]

Some of the problem is anonymity, but its not just that. Sure, you get the guy who spouts off and causes problems because he's a jerk and the worst that could realistically happen is he gets banned. That's not going to be everyone, though. Or even most people.

I think the anger on the internet has more to do with three things:

1) The lack of clear communication. We are trained to communicate not just with words but also with body language and the tone of our voice. A sentence can carry a whole different meaning when accompanied by a different tone or with different body language. You can tell if someone is serious or joking. If they're angry, or happy, or apathetic. Without the additional layers of communication from "real life" interactions, I think people tend to assume the worst about what is being said. They read condescension into a post where it wasn't intended. Or anger. Or whatever. They take offense at what they assume must have been intended by the poster when that's not the case at all.

2) The anonymity of the OTHER guy. I think when the above happens people react more harshly than they normally would not because nobody knows who they are, but because they don't know who the other guy is. All you see on a message board is a username and maybe an avatar that is rarely a photo of the actual poster. For a lot of people, I think, its hard to register a username as a real person even when they logically know there is person behind a keyboard there. Since its "not a real person" they put less thought into whether what they say will cause offense.

3) The political environment. This is the media, government, anything involved with politics is contributing to it. Although "less vs. right" is nothing new and political figures have always tried to paint their opponents as failures and heathens, but there's a difference between a campaign speech or poster and day to day discourse. Lately the common belief seems to be that if someone doesn't agree with you they must hate and be actively planning to destroy everything you love and believe in. And you absolutely have to 100% agree with everything your side does or you, indeed, are also an enemy. There can be no intelligent discussion because each side automatically assumes the other side must not be intelligent or they wouldn't be on the other side. The object of a "debate" is not to convince the other guy you're right, but to absolutely destroy his credibility and self-respect. Even if a discussion somehow starts out as fair and open-minded, it very quickly devolves into a verbal monkey fight where feces is the weapon of choice. This mindset seems to be spreading to other, non-political topics as well unfortunately.

Those are my thoughts on it, anyway.

[MustangGT]

It seems people, when they know they don't have to face the person in real life, will say whatever they want because there are no repercussions for such behavior. Whether in a customer service capacity where my employees would be dealing with the public and get absolutely torn apart over the phone, or on a message board...it is just a sad state we are in.

I don't disagree with this however it really does not go far enough. For way too many folks civility is DEAD in any and all interactions. I have seen customers become absolutely apoplectic at clerks and employees at business when they are face to face. There are certain groups of people who have developed the "entitlement" atitude.

Tell people to get off their cell phone, talk quieter, and you will surely get an earful. I have sadly witnessed folks who thnk employees are punching bags and take their shot. It is interesting that when I talk to friends and describe a particular behavior they are able to describe the individual and are freqently very accurate about the individual based solely upon a description of the behavior.

[Thunder]

We could have it both ways, if Pete can somehow integrate a feature to do so. Like for posting on the forum, display the nickname/username, and have the real name (either opted to be viewable to the public or Mods only) on the profile portion. I think that will be the best solution, that way its up to the people to display on their profile for their real name to be shown to the public or Mods only, that way the Mods can easily contact law enforcement to locate the person.

[stick47]

I've been around the 'net since it's inception and have ran a bunch of different forums and participated in many more, but the anger and hostility that is often the norm can still shock me on occasion.

Even here -- where everyone either lives in or comes from Oklahoma, a place famous for friendliness -- the most innocuous threads tend to take an angry and even acrimonious turn. Someone could post about their favorite corn dog and by the second page of discussion, we'll be calling each other idiots for preferring thick batter to the thinner variety or some other trivial point of disagreement.

I just don't get it. I also don't expect to change it and therefore have to accept it here, even though I feel a strong sense of ownership (literally and figuratively).


There are some times it bothers me more than others, though, and today was one of those days. Hence the post.


BTW, I'm not trying to be high-and-mighty here because I can lose my cool as well or simply make a bad assumption that leads me down a dark path. But today is one of those days where I reaffirm a promise to myself to try and be nice, even when others aren't providing the same courtesy.


My dad used to say this (not sure where he heard it): "I choose to treat any man as a gentleman, not because he is one but because I am one."

I always try to keep that in mind.

I think it's because people are fed up with the game not being fair. The lies from the current administration & our representatives are pushing people to the tipping point of their patience. Even this forum is a crooked game. It's run to give an edge to the Lefties. I stopped posting in the politics section just because of the way the Lefties got a pass where the Conservitives were called for any infraction. My advice is if you want a civil forum, treat all the players equally. BTW, thanks for asking.

[MadMonk]

I was given the advice that if you want a pleasant dinner, never discuss politics or religion at the table. I suppose it's the same way for a forum. Strongly-held beliefs bring out the best and the worst in people.

[bucktalk]

Perhaps the tone of hostility some people freely give isn't really based outside circumstances. Perhaps the lack of civil dialog isn't due to politics, economics or family strife. The reality is unless the heart is content (which comes by wisdom and the ability to be emotionally healthy) then everything looks bleak.

Jesus Christ expressed it well, "from the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks".

The truth is all of the hateful and mean spirited dialog is simply revealing the condition of someones heart.

[ou48A]

Perhaps the tone of hostility some people freely give isn't really based outside circumstances. Perhaps the lack of civil dialog isn't due to politics, economics or family strife. The reality is unless the heart is content (which comes by wisdom and the ability to be emotionally healthy) then everything looks bleak.

Jesus Christ expressed it well, "from the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks".

The truth is all of the hateful and mean spirited dialog is simply revealing the condition of someones heart.

This^ is a great post and is basically how I feel.
The one rule I try very hard to follow for my self is to never say anything that I wouldn’t say to someone’s face.

[Bostonfan]

People get tired of the BS spewed by others and eventually call them out. Then the person spewing the BS gets upset because they usually aren't called out. All this is done in a forum because it's usually the only time certain people will interact with certain people. Think about it. A person will gravitate, or hang with, people he wants to hang out with. I'll say it............ there are many people on this forum I would NEVER want to meet and hang with, and therefore I would never have the opportunity to call them out in person. And I'm sure the feeling is mutual. No hard feelings, it's just how we humans are. Also, some people take these forums wayyyyyyy too seriously. Especially the one's who take themselves too seriously.

[PennyQuilts]

What I've seen is people who can't tell the difference between sharing a difference of opinion and a personal attack. And it seems the same people feel justified in "attacking back" as soon as someone disagrees with them. There are a few posters who spend most of their time - some nearly all of it - apparently looking through the posts and turning the whole thing ugly by focusing on personalities and hijacking the topic being discussed. I am not saying I am perfect or that I haven't done the same but I honestly try to be fair and not get into that. There are plenty of folks who have overlooked my lapses and whose occasional pissiniess I've overlooked, myself. To me, that is a healthy message board. There are some who can't forgive, can't forget, can't move on and seem to think attack, attack, attack is the purpose of the board.

[BBatesokc]

I give a lot of weight to anonymity and separation of sensory input. Anonymity is a enabler and many feel there will never be actual repercussions for their written word or actions (I also see this daily on S. Robinson). I also think we don't realize the weight sensory input has on our actions. When you are face-to-face with someone you take in their size, demeanor, perceived social status, geographic location, and tone (happy, sad, nervous, joking, etc.), just to name a few. Even when people use their real names or have been identified, there is still a significant physical separation that reminds them the chances of actually ever running into an individual here and recognizing them (or being recognized) remote. I think the lack of these elements can cause tunnel vision and the societal norms that cause one to bite their tongue are often out the window.

This is one reason I post under my real name. I can be as sarcastic hot head, but I know I'll always own my words.

Another reality that some find good and others bad, is that a forum often gives each individual equal standing. For the most part we have no idea who is rich, who is poor, who is educated, or who is a complete buffoon we'd never give the time of day to (or at least any credibility) in a face-to-face meeting.

I also truly believe that some people who turn to the Internet are already lacking social skills.

Lastly, many people go to forums with an agenda or a bias they look to promote.

[RadicalModerate]

Lots of very good thoughts, so far, on how and why people express anger--in forums like this--yet not too much on why there is so much anger that needs to be expressed.
Please note that I didn't say that there was nothing said about the why? . . . Just not a lot.

I'm not sure that requiring posting under our real names would address that question either . . .
It would probably only modify how that anger is expressed.

The term "Metacognition" comes to mind: (Short version) "Why we think what we think."
For example: "Why do I feel so much anger [about this or that] . . ."
And, trust me: I ask myself that question a lot. =)

[TaoMaas]

I think that the reason people get angry and abusive on the internet is the same reason kids throw temper tantrums in Wal Mart. It's because they can. I belong to forums with very strict rules about behavior, as well as forums with very loose rules. The strict forums are far more active and civilized.

[venture]

I think it's because people are fed up with the game not being fair. The lies from the current administration & our representatives are pushing people to the tipping point of their patience. Even this forum is a crooked game. It's run to give an edge to the Lefties. I stopped posting in the politics section just because of the way the Lefties got a pass where the Conservitives were called for any infraction. My advice is if you want a civil forum, treat all the players equally. BTW, thanks for asking.

Can't agree with this point at all. Just looking through the Politics section and there are many topics, the majority of them, that are right slanted and they tend to get very insulting. However, the behavior does exist on both sides...but no, I would never considering their forum "crooked" though.

I was given the advice that if you want a pleasant dinner, never discuss politics or religion at the table. I suppose it's the same way for a forum. Strongly-held beliefs bring out the best and the worst in people.

Completely agree 100%.

People get tired of the BS spewed by others and eventually call them out. Then the person spewing the BS gets upset because they usually aren't called out.

It is a terrible cycle we get stuck in. Sometimes we do get baited into the trap set by others and lose decorum.

What I've seen is people who can't tell the difference between sharing a difference of opinion and a personal attack. And it seems the same people feel justified in "attacking back" as soon as someone disagrees with them. There are a few posters who spend most of their time - some nearly all of it - apparently looking through the posts and turning the whole thing ugly by focusing on personalities and hijacking the topic being discussed. I am not saying I am perfect or that I haven't done the same but I honestly try to be fair and not get into that. There are plenty of folks who have overlooked my lapses and whose occasional pissiniess I've overlooked, myself. To me, that is a healthy message board. There are some who can't forgive, can't forget, can't move on and seem to think attack, attack, attack is the purpose of the board.

I like this point because I feel the same. PQ there are times where I completely agree with what you say, and other times where I think you are battier than the crazy cat lady. LOL But I'm sure that is mutual. ;-)

I think that the reason people get angry and abusive on the internet is the same reason kids throw temper tantrums in Wal Mart. It's because they can. I belong to forums with very strict rules about behavior, as well as forums with very loose rules. The strict forums are far more active and civilized.

Agree with this too. If things did get strict here, we'd probably lose 4-10 people...people who normally only contribute to the political area...and the rest of us would be opened to a much more inviting atmosphere.

[Pete]

My advice is if you want a civil forum, treat all the players equally

I really don't want to turn this into a thread about how this board is moderated but I wanted to point out that any intervention at all is almost always seen as an affront to someone's personal belief system. Simultaneously, we are criticized for being biased to both ends of the political/religious spectrum. I am strongly considering doing away with the politics forum as it's a breeding ground for hostility which often bleeds into the other forums.


Back to the original topic, the point has been made a few times about how message boards bring together groups of people who would normally not interact, at least on the level we get into here. For example, I have friends and relatives that think all the MAPS projects are silly and unnecessary and I certainly don't engage in dialog with them on the subject. But when you are passionate about something and someone posts what you consider a very contrary and ill-informed view, for some reason it's much harder to ignore. Perhaps because you are already part of the dialog but also because that idea is put out there in writing for others to see and it's hard to let it go. A spoken opinion usually just falls flat if it's not engaged and even then, who cares what a few people think?

Another example I can think of is one of my very good friends that lives in OKC and is very accomplished and well-educated, but will say things like, "They just need to tear all those old buildings down and start over". I just ignore such comments because I know he doesn't really know much about such things and isn't in any position to influence decisions. Also, his point of view is so far from mine that I know it's pointless to try to convince him otherwise. But if that was posted on the forum, it would be very hard to let it pass without responding.

So, the 'net brings together people that would 1) normally not interact at all and 2) certainly not engage in active debate.


Also, due to the anonymity of everyone else, I think it's human nature to assume the person you are debating with is much like you. But of course, that person could be 10 years old, disabled, emotionally disturbed, 90 years old or even be posting from Serbia. Heck, we often don't even know the gender of the other person.


I suppose everyone has some inherent anger and frustration and all these factors tend to bring it out -- without any repercussions.

[stick47]

I am strongly considering doing away with the politics forum as it's a breeding ground for hostility which often bleeds into the other forums.

I'm in favor of it and if you do, it would prove that YOU have no agenda here.

[Roadhawg]

I'm in favor of it and if you do, it would prove that YOU have no agenda here.

How would it prove that? the politics forum is open to both sides and I rarely see Pete or mmm take any sides and only step in if it gets too nasty or personal.