6 months later.

[barnold]

It's been 6 months now since Mayor Cornett appeared in countless TV ads touting that a "vote for Maps3 will add police and fire protection." There was no denial of this promise by city leaders and many joined the Mayor for face time in the great push to get Maps3 passed.

July 1 starts the new fiscal year for the city and we will start this year off with 22 less police and 29 less firefighter positions that will be filled. (These numbers do not include how many each department is already running short, as are many other essential city services are as well.) Mayor Cornett announced to the voters of Oklahoma City that the use tax from Maps3 would actually add 20 police and 10 firefighter positions.

Who will hold the city leaders accountable for their promises? Who will remember the TV ads, blogs, radio interviews and other propaganda that was spread for months? It seems only those that it directly affects. The only problem with this way of thinking is that until you don't have a service you've taken for granted all this time; it doesn't really affect you- does it?

Several on OKC talk were bold in stating that they would be the first to stand in front of the council and demand that essential city services be maintained. Where have they gone? Other threads have touted how OKC's population base has grown over the past several years, but few admit that the employee base that delivers these services has actually decreased.

I won't stand idly by waiting for promises to come to fruition and will continue to ask the questions here and in other forums. But when will someone in a position of authority with the city stand up and answer for what they have promised the citizens of OKC? Politicians count on you not remembering all their promises over the past 4 years. Will you? Why do we have to wait 4 years when you have a voice now? Honesty from our city leaders is expected; accountability is demanded and failure of either of these traits should be immediately corrected. If not by those in public office, then by those that placed them there by their individual voice and vote.

[brianinok]

MAPS3 will increase our tax base, which will allow the city to hire more police and firefighters. This is not rocket science.

[OKC@heart]

The taxes generated by the result of Maps III will also certainly increase as a result. But even the Maps money is not in hand to be used yet, but is accrued as it is collected in a pay as you go model.

[Mikemarsh51]

Nice theory Brianinok, Can you explain why the numbers of police and firefighters has declined since the first and subsequent Maps projects? It can't be the tax base getting smaller. You being so niave is almost cute.

[Steve]

1. Mayor Mick Cornett promised during the MAPS 3 campaign that if the tax were passed, it would put more police and firefighters on the streets.
2. Curious: does a growing population always translate into a higher work load? What is the impact of better built homes, a shrinking supply of older, more fire prone homes, and technological advances?

[okcpulse]

1. Mayor Mick Cornett promised during the MAPS 3 campaign that if the tax were passed, it would put more police and firefighters on the streets.
2. Curious: does a growing population always translate into a higher work load? What is the impact of better built homes, a shrinking supply of older, more fire prone homes, and technological advances?

Not to mention better efficiency from within the police force. Our city's population has increased, but does crime skyrocket with population growth? Too many cops can create bored cops, and that can be bad.

Besides, we just started collecting the tax a few months ago. This is a pay-as-you-go program. Not an instant-gratification-finance-and-build-the-projects-now program.

Not trying to to sound short, barnold, but think things through before coming to these conclusions instead of jumping to them. Heck, after the first MAPS was passed in 1993 my stepdad expected to see cranes flying for the new arena on the day we started collecting the tax. Doesn't work that way.

[barnold]

Steve,

1. Yes he he did, and no it has not.
2. In the case of Okc, YES it has. Total work load for all departments has increased and the new motto of okc services is "do more with less". For the FD it's not just fires calls and hasn't been for more than 20 years, you know that. As to the newer homes, unless they have a sprinkler system installed in them, they actually burn faster and hotter than 20 years ago making the occupants time to escape even less than it used to be.

[dismayed]

...the new motto of okc services is "do more with less".

Welcome to the workforce of the 21st Century. That is the motto of everyone, everywhere. I'm afraid I have no sympathy.

I know this is hard for some folks in this state to hear, but when that becomes the situation and it is immovable, it is time to start thinking about changing the way things are done instead of doing the same things that have been done for the last 100 years. The fact is it is pretty clear to me you are not going to win this argument in this city. That being the case, shouting from the rooftops, or in this case an anonymous message board, isn't going to do the job. I think city public services need to step back and rethink a few things.

[Mikemarsh51]

You have to think outside of the house Steve. Even though we have better built structures, we still have natural disasters, motor vehicle accidents, domestic accidents, domestic abuse, any number of criminal situations causing injury and overall bad health of people. Public safety should keep up with the population growth.

[Mikemarsh51]

Brianinok, When ground was broken for the canal on 7/4/1998, we had approx. 975 personnel on the fire dept. A class was started on 3/19/1999 that brought our total to 999 personnel. Since that time and several Maps projects later we are somewhere around 930. Splain the the rocket science or be prepared to believe public safety is in fact not a priority with this mayor, city council and city manager.

[Mikemarsh51]

Pulse, are you serious? We have lived through 16 years of waiting for things to get better. And it has been that long since the city actually had a contract with us in place at the start of the fiscal year. Wasnt us dragging our feet on an agreement.

[barnold]

okcpulse,

If the pay as you go program were true, then why was the city purchasing land for the core to shore in Nov. prior to the election?

Also, what sound logic comes from cutting positions from the general fund that you claim you don't have money for with the promise that they will hire 10 additional positions with Maps3 use tax. -29 now + 10 in 6 more months still leaves a deficit of -19 positions. Funny math. Don't think my accountant would go for it.

[okcpulse]

okcpulse,

If the pay as you go program were true, then why was the city purchasing land for the core to shore in Nov. prior to the election?

Also, what sound logic comes from cutting positions from the general fund that you claim you don't have money for with the promise that they will hire 10 additional positions with Maps3 use tax. -29 now + 10 in 6 more months still leaves a deficit of -19 positions. Funny math. Don't think my accountant would go for it.

Core to Shore is separate from MAPS. I am having a hard time understanding why you guys keep correlating MAPS projects with your department's problems.

MAPS 3 Use tax cannot be used until construction companies start turning dirt, which is typically when the city collects the use tax.

I have said this time and time and time again, you guys need to scream for a PERMANENT funding source for the police department, and not throw fits about a temporary tax.

Think about it. A temporary sales tax for police and fire. Are you telling me you'd be willing to campaign EVERY time the tax is about to expire? With a permanent funding source, your problems are over.

[Wambo36]

I have said this time and time and time again, you guys need to scream for a PERMANENT funding source for the police department, and not throw fits about a temporary tax.

Think about it. A temporary sales tax for police and fire. Are you telling me you'd be willing to campaign EVERY time the tax is about to expire? With a permanent funding source, your problems are over.

Pulse, you need to understand, this was not our proposal. This was something the mayor and his handlers came up with in the waning days of the MAPS3 campaign to try to garner votes. Why would he make this proposal? I have no idea. It's obvious the council wasn't behind it. They said so in an open council meeting. As a matter of record, some council members told the mayor to go see if the Chamber of Commerce would help him keep this promise. That tells me who the council thinks was behind this promise, made during the mad rush at the end of the campaign.

Our intention is to make sure that the tactics used aren't forgotten. It shows the character, or lack thereof, of the people involved. That some on this thread would dismiss it as "expected" in todays political arena is pretty sad.

As some have already pointed out, we've had a permanent funding source for over 20 years now. They have been failing to keep the promises made to get that tax passed for a long time now. Sadly, I guess people think that's business as usual too.

[andy157]

Core to Shore is separate from MAPS. I am having a hard time understanding why you guys keep correlating MAPS projects with your department's problems.

MAPS 3 Use tax cannot be used until construction companies start turning dirt, which is typically when the city collects the use tax.

I have said this time and time and time again, you guys need to scream for a PERMANENT funding source for the police department, and not throw fits about a temporary tax.

Think about it. A temporary sales tax for police and fire. Are you telling me you'd be willing to campaign EVERY time the tax is about to expire? With a permanent funding source, your problems are over.

We have a permenate tax.

[Larry OKC]

Core to Shore is separate from MAPS. I am having a hard time understanding why you guys keep correlating MAPS projects with your department's problems.

MAPS 3 Use tax cannot be used until construction companies start turning dirt, which is typically when the city collects the use tax.

I have said this time and time and time again, you guys need to scream for a PERMANENT funding source for the police department, and not throw fits about a temporary tax.

Think about it. A temporary sales tax for police and fire. Are you telling me you'd be willing to campaign EVERY time the tax is about to expire? With a permanent funding source, your problems are over.

Some of the MAPS 3 projects are part of the Core to Shore so they are mingled a bit (particularly, the Park). The land purchased for some of the Park was spent a few months before MAPS 3 even went to a vote. The money used was authorized in the 2007 general obligation bond (IIRC, $6M of an authorized $26M).

Any associated Use Tax is collected by businesses and individuals (it is on the Oklahoma income tax form) when purchasing items outside of Oklahoma that don't have their own sales tax. Doesn't really have anything to do with local construction companies "turning dirt" (just the materials they might be purchasing elsewhere).

I agree that using a temporary tax is a bad idea. When the tax ends in 7+ years, that funding source goes away. But according to the City, this is a temporary solution until a permanent solution can be found. Also, the City has only agreed to earmarking the 7+ year tax for just the first 2 years. That video clip I posted of Prater said something to the effect that the City has pledged to sit down with the PS folks over the next to years and work out a solution.

[rcjunkie]

Oh great, another thread with nothing but we need, we were promised, we don't have! WA WA WA WA WA.

For Gods sake, get a grip, stop bitching, be thankful you have a job and just do it. If your that unhappy retire/quit/move to Dallas or Kansas City and start a new life. Or better yet, move to Tenkiller with me, one can never have too many fishing buddies.

I still find it amusing that the only ones complaining are Police and Fire, I guess all other employees (Water, Streets, Parks, Animal Control, etc understand the financial and budget process, they know that in lean times you have to make do with less and are just happy to still be employed.

Got to go, time for breakfast so that I can be on the lake by sunrise!

[Wambo36]

Oh great, another thread with nothing but we need, we were promised, we don't have! WA WA WA WA WA.

For Gods sake, get a grip, stop bitching, be thankful you have a job and just do it. If your that unhappy retire/quit/move to Dallas or Kansas City and start a new life. Or better yet, move to Tenkiller with me, one can never have too many fishing buddies.

I still find it amusing that the only ones complaining are Police and Fire, I guess all other employees (Water, Streets, Parks, Animal Control, etc understand the financial and budget process, they know that in lean times you have to make do with less and are just happy to still be employed.

Funny you should mention it RC. According to a friend in public works, when the city manager came to address them about the budget, they were told not to ask any questions that could be construed as "tough" of the city manager so as to not be disrespectful. Guess who issued this edict? Not their boss or management(although thaty's where it likely started). Their UNION leader issued it. With that kind of pathetic representation it's hard for them to know anything about the city finances. The problem with all the depts. you listed is weak employee representation coupled with management who employ the "kiss a** uphill and shovel s**t downhill" style of doing things. But, what am I doing telling you this, you thrived in that system didn't you?

[rcjunkie]

Funny you should mention it RC. According to a friend in public works, when the city manager came to address them about the budget, they were told not to ask any questions that could be construed as "tough" of the city manager so as to not be disrespectful. Guess who issued this edict? Not their boss or management(although thaty's where it likely started). Their UNION leader issued it. With that kind of pathetic representation it's hard for them to know anything about the city finances. The problem with all the depts. you listed is weak employee representation coupled with management who employ the "kiss a** uphill and shovel s**t downhill" style of doing things. But, what am I doing telling you this, you thrived in that system didn't you?

Damn right I thrived Skippy, with hard work, dedication, college degree, you would be surprised how far one can go, and unlike you, I did it without moaning, griping, bitching, complaining.

[Wambo36]

Damn right I thrived Skippy, with hard work, dedication, college degree, you would be surprised how far one can go, and unlike you, I did it without moaning, griping, bitching, complaining.

Couple all that with a keen adeptness at the aforementioned uphill-downhill management style and I'll bet you were unstoppable. Skippy

[rcjunkie]

Couple all that with a keen adeptness at the aforementioned uphill-downhill management style and I'll bet you were unstoppable. Skippy

Couldn't stop me with a Mack truck, or better yet, a ladder truck (too bad you guys can't take better care of them and keep them running)

[Larry OKC]

rc: don't you understand, if the Mayor isn't being truthful about this particular promise (personally, I think he is trying to uphold that promise, but he is 1 person among the many) how many other things about MAPS 3 are questionable? Goes back to the "intent". I have seen some of the Council meetings were it came up and he does seem sincere. But again, the "intent" can easily change.

[Larry OKC]

The taxes generated by the result of Maps III will also certainly increase as a result. But even the Maps money is not in hand to be used yet, but is accrued as it is collected in a pay as you go model.

That is true, but Mr. Prater (with Councilman Marrs and Mayor Cornett nodding in agreement) said that if MAPS 3 passed, the use tax would guarantee that no public safety layoffs etc would happen (no matter what happened with sales tax collections). Along with the other public safety promises made during the campaign mentioned by others.

It is also true that Mr. Prater is not a City official but neither the Mayor or the Councilman corrected him (again, you can see them nodding in agreement in the video clip).

And before someone goes, “they never said that”, here it is...

MAPS 3 could generate public safety money, Oklahoma City says | NewsOK.com

Cornett said if MAPS 3 passes, the city WILL give MAPS 3 use tax revenue to public safety. ... “The MAPS use tax can be used to help ensure that public safety remains a top priority. We will not have that option if MAPS 3 does not pass,” Cornett said.
...
Prater, a former police officer, said the use tax plan guarantees no police officers will lose their jobs in the next two years. He also said the plan convinced him to support MAPS 3.

“My concern all along, as far as about a year ago, was talking about increasing our public safety and I believe this proposal right now does exactly that,” Prater said.

At the 1:15 mark in the video clip, Mr. Prater states:

I believe that the proposal through the MAPS 3 use tax, has done exactly that. It assures us that through the rest of this fiscal year and next fiscal year we will see no cuts of police officers. Period. No matter what we experience in our sales tax revenue shortfalls. In addition to that, they have proposed to add an additional 20 officers through MAPS use tax and an additional 7 officers through cop grants. So we are looking at a swing, a possible swing, of 50 officers over the next couple of years.

[rcjunkie]

Like I've stated over and over, I agree that the Mayor. Council and DA offered things that have yet to happen and probably never will, I don't agree with any cuts to Police or Fire, but I don't see what good it does to get your panties in a wad and constantly complain. If i were as unhappy about the situation as some, I would retire or resign and move on.

For years all departments have taken budget cuts (except Public Safety), now that the Mayor and Council have decided to include Public Safety in NECESSARY CUTS, they act as though the world is coming to an end.

[Mesta Parker]

"Do more with less" has been a requirement in the business world for the past 20 years. About time government catches on!