OKC hasn't sold chains on its strong points

[beedell]

NewsOK

[khook]

Well the article in my opinion really should be discussed has to an opportunity waiting to happen. The premise of "leakage" points out that there is a untapped need for those "chains" to make an effort to locate in OKC. Instead of being an also ran the could be the forerunner. Time and time againg the smart retailers that have built and invested have proven results that they will come.

[mugofbeer]

To me, it seems like the chicken and the egg. If so many people are running to Dallas or Tulsa to buy things that aren't available in OKC, doesn't it make sense to make them available in OKC? Their reasoning for leakage shows the potential business in OKC - it's like they are arguing against the very reason they should come here.

[circuitboard]

The reasons for not locating here were completely lame. It's true, yes we go to Dallas to shop. It's not very far, and guess what they have all the stuff we want that's not in OKC. You want us to shop in OKC? THEN LOCATE A STORE HERE.... it is pretty simple. That article irritated me.

[Spartan]

"OKC hasn't sold chains on its strong points."

My response: OKC lacks strong points. The bottom line is that the chains are looking at OKC. Instead they're going to Tulsa, Birmingham, Albuquerque, Richmond, and so on..because there is NOWHERE for them to go in OKC.

Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Oklahoma Factory Outlets or whatever it was called, University North Park, and so on.. nice projects. Too bad none of them are ever gonna happen like we had hoped any time soon. UNP will be finished in the year 3045, but only if they pick up the pace from what it is right now.

Meanwhile there are NOOOO decent retail projects in the inner city. Grant Humphreys' awesome proposal for Crown Heights would have done wonders. But that too stalled.

[mugofbeer]

[QUOTE=Spartan;317267
Meanwhile there are NOOOO decent retail projects in the inner city. Grant Humphreys' awesome proposal for Crown Heights would have done wonders. But that too stalled.[/QUOTE]

I used to work in the Cityplace building in Dallas at Central and Lemmon. The city of Dallas went into partnership with a developer, gave some incentives and saw a new retail development built just north of downtown at a time that no one was building in Dallas (early '90s). Later on, I worked in Denver and the City of Denver went into partnership with a developer to put in retail on S. Broadway about a mile out of downtown. Now Denver has several inner city grocery stores but the point is, in both cases, the city had to pony up significant money and guarantees to get the inner city retail projects built.

IMO, the only way this is going to be done is with a public/private partnership. I don't see OKC having the will to do this but if they were to do it, the uproar would be far MORE than what was heard from the Bass Pro project.

Whoops ,EDIT. MORE for less

[ronronnie1]

ugh @ my computer acting screwwy. Ignore this post.

[okcpulse]

Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Oklahoma Factory Outlets or whatever it was called, University North Park, and so on.. nice projects. Too bad none of them are ever gonna happen like we had hoped any time soon. UNP will be finished in the year 3045, but only if they pick up the pace from what it is right now.

Tuscana is on schedule. Quail Springs Ranch is cancelled (which makes sense because it was too close to Tuscana), and construction bids were opened last month for Oklahoma Factory Outlets, which is now called Outlet Shoppes in Oklahoma City. Nine West is one of the stores already on the list for the Outlets.

These are all multiphase projects. Oftentimes, tennants must be signed before construction can begin. As for Tuscana, they are getting upscale multifamily units in place on the outer parcels. The next phase will be the lifestyle center itself.

[MikeOKC]

"OKC hasn't sold chains on its strong points."

My response: OKC lacks strong points. The bottom line is that the chains are looking at OKC. Instead they're going to Tulsa, Birmingham, Albuquerque, Richmond, and so on..because there is NOWHERE for them to go in OKC.

Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Oklahoma Factory Outlets or whatever it was called, University North Park, and so on.. nice projects. Too bad none of them are ever gonna happen like we had hoped any time soon. UNP will be finished in the year 3045, but only if they pick up the pace from what it is right now.

Meanwhile there are NOOOO decent retail projects in the inner city. Grant Humphreys' awesome proposal for Crown Heights would have done wonders. But that too stalled.

So right, Nick. The Legends in Kansas City, Firewheel in Garland, we could go on and on. OKC is really lacking here. I've seen these things go up fast across the country. All of this, "It's coming, they're going to build housing and then......" That's not how it's done. And nobody in Oklahoma City has been able to get it done.

[okcpulse]

So right, Nick. The Legends in Kansas City, Firewheel in Garland, we could go on and on. OKC is really lacking here. I've seen these things go up fast across the country. All of this, "It's coming, they're going to build housing and then......" That's not how it's done. And nobody in Oklahoma City has been able to get it done.

Kansas City and DFW are both larger markets, so they are an easier sale. I'm not saying its wrong to try to compete with larger markets. I'm all for it. But using larger markets as a measuring stick to Oklahoma City's progress won't work.

Let's compare our progress to similar sized markets, which there aren't many. New Orleans, Memphis, Salt Lake City. How are those cities?

[Spartan]

So right, Nick. The Legends in Kansas City, Firewheel in Garland, we could go on and on. OKC is really lacking here. I've seen these things go up fast across the country. All of this, "It's coming, they're going to build housing and then......" That's not how it's done. And nobody in Oklahoma City has been able to get it done.

KC has multiple true town center developments...Legends West, Zona Rosa, Tiffany Springs, and so on and so on.. Country Club Plaza is one of the very first town center case examples from the same period as Utica Square. The DFW area has many times more than that..Firewheel, Southlake, just a ton of them. Highland Park Village is Dallas' version of Utica Square/Plaza. They are getting new retail tenants. OKC isn't.

OKC is too busy adding more strip malls. That's what Quail Springs Ranch was, good thing it didn't come to pass. The new Targets in the metro have also pretty much been strip malls. Moore is becoming a strip mall haven. Westgate, along the NW Expressway, and so on and so forth. Belle Isle. Etc.

So if all of your retail developments are strip malls but what you want is town centers.. the answer is simple. Ban strip malls. Worried about competition from Norman and Edmond? Simple, make it an ACOG solution. Banning strip malls would be popular with idiot voters, too, who are typically opposed to commerce. A lot of OKC's issues could be solved from the Planning Dept.

Stop requiring surface parking, stop requiring huge setbacks everywhere, get rid of building codes that make REAL downtown lofts impossible, stop letting people tear down any buildings that stand close to towers, and stop letting developers build crappy retail strip malls that will deteriorate quickly. You'd be amazed how all of OKC's problems will vanish and OKC suddenly joins the same league as Tulsa, retail-wise.

Or you can be like metro and others continuing to deny that OKC has a problem. Sprawlers Anonymous: Admitting that you have a problem is the first step.

[ljbab728]

KC has multiple true town center developments...Legends West, Zona Rosa, Tiffany Springs, and so on and so on.. Country Club Plaza is one of the very first town center case examples from the same period as Utica Square. The DFW area has many times more than that..Firewheel, Southlake, just a ton of them. Highland Park Village is Dallas' version of Utica Square/Plaza. They are getting new retail tenants. OKC isn't.

OKC is too busy adding more strip malls. That's what Quail Springs Ranch was, good thing it didn't come to pass. The new Targets in the metro have also pretty much been strip malls. Moore is becoming a strip mall haven. Westgate, along the NW Expressway, and so on and so forth. Belle Isle. Etc.

So if all of your retail developments are strip malls but what you want is town centers.. the answer is simple. Ban strip malls. Worried about competition from Norman and Edmond? Simple, make it an ACOG solution. Banning strip malls would be popular with idiot voters, too, who are typically opposed to commerce. A lot of OKC's issues could be solved from the Planning Dept.

Stop requiring surface parking, stop requiring huge setbacks everywhere, get rid of building codes that make REAL downtown lofts impossible, stop letting people tear down any buildings that stand close to towers, and stop letting developers build crappy retail strip malls that will deteriorate quickly. You'd be amazed how all of OKC's problems will vanish and OKC suddenly joins the same league as Tulsa, retail-wise.

Or you can be like metro and others continuing to deny that OKC has a problem. Sprawlers Anonymous: Admitting that you have a problem is the first step.

Spartan, I don't disagree with your concept about how things should be developed but how do you ban the things you propose and how does that help? Do Tulsa or Dallas or Kansas City ban strip malls? I don't think so. I' ve seen plenty of them there. What do those cities do to promote these kinds of developments that OKC doesn't do? Exactly what kind of building or zoning requirements do they have that we don't have here?

[mugofbeer]

Spartan, I don't disagree with your concept about how things should be developed but how do you ban the things you propose and how does that help? Do Tulsa or Dallas or Kansas City ban strip malls? I don't think so. I' ve seen plenty of them there. What do those cities do to promote these kinds of developments that OKC doesn't do? Exactly what kind of building or zoning requirements do they have that we don't have here?

I don't know about Tulsa or KC, but Dallas does impose more restrictive construction requirements on their retail spaces. Nicer architectural designs and higher end exteriors. From what I see, OKC doesn't do anything like this.

[Spartan]

Spartan, I don't disagree with your concept about how things should be developed but how do you ban the things you propose and how does that help? Do Tulsa or Dallas or Kansas City ban strip malls? I don't think so. I' ve seen plenty of them there. What do those cities do to promote these kinds of developments that OKC doesn't do? Exactly what kind of building or zoning requirements do they have that we don't have here?

Different cities, different problems. Given OKC's unique problems, I think the Planning Dept needs to be a lot more involved than it currently is.. not just crouched in the fetal position whimpering in the corner of City Hall.

[Spartan]

Spartan, I don't disagree with your concept about how things should be developed but how do you ban the things you propose and how does that help? Do Tulsa or Dallas or Kansas City ban strip malls? I don't think so. I' ve seen plenty of them there. What do those cities do to promote these kinds of developments that OKC doesn't do? Exactly what kind of building or zoning requirements do they have that we don't have here?

Good question, hopefully I have some good answers, although you be the judge of that. I have a lot of things that this question makes me think of at once and I'll try to run through them..

1. A major point they teach in law school is "unwritten contract law" between people who verbally agree on something. Public policy and public administration has the same thing, and it's equally relevant as city planning and architectural guidelines in ascertaining how to get private developer buy-in to the city's goal of better, more sustainable development. Take Bricktown for example, when we allowed Bass Pro, Residence Inn, and all the other urban design atrocities we sent a message loud and clear that urban design guidelines are nice but not adhered to, not relevant, and not important. Then when BUD forced McDonald's to get their act together and raised the bar for the Hampton Inn and other projects, it also sent a message that we will occasionally enforce urban design guidelines.

2. When it comes to suburban development, there's this misconception that we are in competition with the ankle-biting suburbs for development. We're really not, because OKC still controls the most desirable development areas--Deer Creek, Memorial Road, I-40 west, Northwest Expressway, etc. It's true OKC has lost a proportion of sales tax revenues but the primary cause of that is the southside's deterioration and not so much the strength of other Cleveland County suburbs in my opinion. What's more is that the smaller communities typically have a history of following suit behind OKC, and a great example of this is tax structure. The only suburb whose tax rate is not nearly the same as OKC's is Warr Acres, which has virtually no important retail to speak of besides Walgreen's and Incredible Pizza. In order for change to come to the OKC metro it has to come from OKC City Hall and other communities WILL more than likely follow suit.

_________________
So to recap so far, it's not so much a specific code issue or that there is something we should ban. A lot of it just has to do with changing the precedent and requiring better in general. However you change the precedent, once we do so, OKC will start to see a shift in development philosophy.
_________________

3. As I mentioned in an earlier post, there are a lot of development restrictions enforced by the OKC Planning Dept that need to be changed. These restrictions facilitated the sprawl we've become familiar with, because that was mistakenly seen as the desirable development trend for the latter portion of the 20th Century (a century which has become notable for its destruction of great cities as well as the misconception of what a great city is, more so than any other century so far). These requirements include but aren't limited to: building codes that dictate finish requirements on new development thus making true downtown lofts impossible, a ban on mixed-use development in the suburbs, required site development setbacks, requirements on the number of parking spaces you must have, and so on. So this is my question to sort of answer a question: If we can require parking spaces, why can't we reverse that and put a cap on surface parking in the city? If we can ban mixed-uses and require setbacks in other areas of the city, why can't we reverse that as well? If we can enforce suburbanism, why can't we have a shift of paradigm and just enforce urbanism instead?

4. As for banning strip malls outright, there are communities that do just this believe it or not although nobody will be surprised to learn that Tulsa, Dallas, or KC aren't among them--they mostly exist on the West Coast and primarily in California. A more common solution to making crappy development more difficult is to put a ban on EIFS/EFIS and other substandard building materials. I would also place a ban on steel structures anywhere in the city unless it's zoned industrial or rural/agriculture. Banning strip malls is feasible but an extreme solution where more moderate solutions exist such as I just mentioned.

[metro]

"OKC hasn't sold chains on its strong points."

My response: OKC lacks strong points. The bottom line is that the chains are looking at OKC. Instead they're going to Tulsa, Birmingham, Albuquerque, Richmond, and so on..because there is NOWHERE for them to go in OKC.

Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Oklahoma Factory Outlets or whatever it was called, University North Park, and so on.. nice projects. Too bad none of them are ever gonna happen like we had hoped any time soon. UNP will be finished in the year 3045, but only if they pick up the pace from what it is right now.

Meanwhile there are NOOOO decent retail projects in the inner city. Grant Humphreys' awesome proposal for Crown Heights would have done wonders. But that too stalled.

I disagree, show evidence of one retailer that says their is no "decent retail project in the inner city of OKC and that's why we're not coming." Every instance I've seen talks about population density. Look at the population density of OKC and compare it to Tulsa, Shawnee, Durant, Chickasha. Because of our large area, it drives our population density wayy down compared to what it actually would be for our urbanized area. I currently work as a project manager on the marketing side for a retail chain that opens up about a store every month and am highly involved in things like this. Population density is the #1 factor. Lack of quality space is important, but retailers will build it if the statistics are strong enough. OKC needs to deannex more than anything.

[okcpulse]

I disagree, show evidence of one retailer that says their is no "decent retail project in the inner city of OKC and that's why we're not coming." Every instance I've seen talks about population density. Look at the population density of OKC and compare it to Tulsa, Shawnee, Durant, Chickasha. Because of our large area, it drives our population density wayy down compared to what it actually would be for our urbanized area. I currently work as a project manager on the marketing side for a retail chain that opens up about a store every month and am highly involved in things like this. Population density is the #1 factor. Lack of quality space is important, but retailers will build it if the statistics are strong enough. OKC needs to deannex more than anything.

Oklahoma City's urbanized area, less than a third of its area, holds 95% of the city's population. Not to mention Edmond, Moore, Del City and MWC are attached to the urbanized area, and Norman is next door to Moore.

So OKC deannexes 250 square miles. The rural area will still be rural and the urbanized area will still be the same size.

[onthestrip]

Tuscana is on schedule. Quail Springs Ranch is cancelled (which makes sense because it was too close to Tuscana)

Im not sure that it makes total sense because I think the Quail Springs Ranch might have been a better project. The site plan they had looked great, they apparently had some really good retailers on board early on, and a more visable and easier accessed location.

I disagree, show evidence of one retailer that says their is no "decent retail project in the inner city of OKC and that's why we're not coming." Every instance I've seen talks about population density. Look at the population density of OKC and compare it to Tulsa, Shawnee, Durant, Chickasha. Because of our large area, it drives our population density wayy down compared to what it actually would be for our urbanized area. I currently work as a project manager on the marketing side for a retail chain that opens up about a store every month and am highly involved in things like this. Population density is the #1 factor. Lack of quality space is important, but retailers will build it if the statistics are strong enough. OKC needs to deannex more than anything.

Deannex isnt the answer. And it pretty much does have everything to do with quality space in OKC. There is simply a large void of good upscale space. Tell me what space other than Penn Square would a, new to OKC, upscale national retailer locate in? And dont say Classen Curve, its just not big enough.

[jdcf]

I don't understand the summary of this report either. We are not going to do without simply because it is not readily available in Oklahoma City. My wife makes out of town shopping trips many times a year, most frequently to Dallas and Tulsa.

Oklahoma City seems to lack a large, concentrated area with middle and higher level income, other than in the newer areas of the city. Even within the same square mile section, in many cases there seem to be blocks with larger homes and then adjacent blocks with smaller homes, new homes with older homes, kept homes of all sizes with unkept homes of all sizes. Within zip code areas, I suspect the variation among income and other kinds of factors is also high.

I may be wrong about this, but when we are in Tulsa, this kind of extreme variation is not as apparent to me.

The report was disheartening.

I have never figured out why Penn Square is such a coup, particularly in terms of design. Is it just because that is all we have?

[bluedogok]

I may be wrong about this, but when we are in Tulsa, this kind of extreme variation is not as apparent to me.

OKC doesn't have the concentrated wealth like Tulsa does, some of it in part is due to the poor race relations that Tulsa historically had. North Tulsa has traditionally been less populated, poor and black while the south had higher density, was white and wealthy. The way Tulsa has grown in the last 100 years has pretty much held true to that form. Where as OKC has grown mostly west but there are still some wealthier pockets around the east side of OKC, probably more so than in North Tulsa. Dallas isn't much different in Tulsa in that regard, you have to go to the far south suburbs to get out of the traditional "poor areas" like South Oak Cliff.

I have never figured out why Penn Square is such a coup, particularly in terms of design. Is it just because that is all we have?

It had the most investment and was owned by the largest shopping mall developer at the time when it was redeveloped by the DeBartolo Corp. It has since become part of the Simon Properties which is the largest shopping mall owner. They had the clout to be able to attract the larger chains during the retail boom of the early 90's. So part of it was good ownership with connections and a massive redevelopment essentially creating a new mall at the right time.

[Platemaker]

The main thing that irks me about this article is calling OKC the Midwest.... ugggh.

[chuckdiesel]

The main thing that irks me about this article is calling OKC the Midwest.... ugggh.

No kidding. Oklahoma has never been midwest. It has never been the south either. We Okies occupy a largely unrepresented part of the country known as the south central US or southern plains(Texas with more Indians and less Mexicans, culturally), a part of the plains occupied by southern influences. Midwest does not mean "almost west". Some people need a geography lesson and some world experience. Combine equal parts Cowboy(a mexican influence), southern transplants, and throw in a dash of native american culture(a big distinction from Texas), and you get Okie culture. The only reason Ok was not part of the true south is because it was unsettled. The only reason that OK is a state today is because my ancestors sided with the confederacy. Take a history lesson people. OK is the Kentucky of the West. The first state geographically that blends the South and the West. Screw Ft. Worth, OKC is the embodiment of this. Equal parts of both the South and the West yet not either. 0% midwest. Travel people!!

[progressiveboy]

No kidding. Oklahoma has never been midwest. It has never been the south either. We Okies occupy a largely unrepresented part of the country known as the south central US or southern plains(Texas with more Indians and less Mexicans, culturally), a part of the plains occupied by southern influences. Midwest does not mean "almost west". Some people need a geography lesson and some world experience. Combine equal parts Cowboy(a mexican influence), southern transplants, and throw in a dash of native american culture(a big distinction from Texas), and you get Okie culture. The only reason Ok was not part of the true south is because it was unsettled. The only reason that OK is a state today is because my ancestors sided with the confederacy. Take a history lesson people. OK is the Kentucky of the West. The first state geographically that blends the South and the West. Screw Ft. Worth, OKC is the embodiment of this. Equal parts of both the South and the West yet not either.

I still consider Oklahoma to be more of a Southern State. It is not the "deep" South but what I consider the Upper South. Even dictionaries will define the state as a "South Central geographically. Agree, Oklahoma is "not" the midwest.

[chuckdiesel]

The main thing that irks me about this article is calling OKC the Midwest.... ugggh.

Midwest equals:

brown gravy (wtf gravy comes in one color, white)
nasal overemphasis on vowels
Only one choice of tea: Unsweet and instant
Lutheren/Methodist/Catholic majority over Southern Baptist
hockey (or LaCrosse, come the **** on)
big ten (eleven?)
basements (we have independent storm cellars)
black clay (we have mostly red to tan sandy soil)
manufacturing
corned beef (uhm pork chops and okra please)
paisley white folks eating bland food, (yes, i want lett, tom, and jalepenos on my burger not just a soy patty and white buns you fuktard)
wolverines
the north woods
fishing for musky (never heard of them)
farming (we are mostly an oil and natural gas/cattle state, although we do produce a large farm export, but how many "midwest" states produce our amount of COTTON) Spend some time in Southwest OK.
woody cars
closer ties to canada than mexico
Ice fishing
A large Scandanavian and Polish population

Or this chick:



when our sheriff's dress like this:




I have never experienced any of these things in OK.





Modern South:



United States South Central States:

[MikeOKC]

Midwest equals:

brown gravy (wtf gravy comes in one color, white)
nasal overemphasis on vowels
Only one choice of tea: Unsweet and instant
Lutheren/Methodist/Catholic majority over Southern Baptist
hockey (or LaCrosse, come the **** on)
big ten (eleven?)
basements (we have independent storm cellars)
black clay (we have mostly red to tan sandy soil)
manufacturing
corned beef (uhm pork chops and okra please)
paisley white folks eating bland food, (yes, i want lett, tom, and jalepenos on my burger not just a soy patty and white buns you fuktard)

Sounds like you have a problem with the Great Midwest. Not to mention you need to grow-up and act like an adult on this forum.