Now that MAPS has passed, what comes first?

[warreng88]

I know the mayor said he wants the Central Park to be opened by the time the boulevard opens in 2014. I wonder if the streetcar would be first so it would line up with the Devon 180 project. That way, when the streets are ripped up, the rail lines could go down and they streets could be redone around that. If this tax is supposed to bring in $100 million a year, both of these could be funded in less than three years. Thoughts?

[barnold]

Who knows? Wouldn't it have been nice to actually have a plan before you voted for it? Sorry, bitter goon syndrome.

[Chance23]

If I were to wager, it'd probably be in this order.

1: Park
2: Beginning of the rails/sidewalks
3: Trails/sidewalks
4: Fairgrounds
5: Convention Center
6: White Water Facility
7: Aquatic center

I predict the first two for the same reason you do. After that it's the relatively cheap but still visible trail system. I think sidewalks will just go in as they go along with other improvements. The Fairgrounds and convention center will take longer, but those are big money makers for the city and they'd come next, followed by the white water facility and the aquatic centers at last (probably as the last thing funded in case it falls short).

[brianinok]

The first thing might be a legal challenge. I just saw on Channel 9's newscast that the police union chief said he would be talking to lawyers and seeing if a legal challenge could be made on the wording of the ballot. I hope he's just upset he lost, and will reconsider. I wouldn't want this to get delayed by a legal challenge; there's virtually no chance of it getting stuck down at least.

[Thundercitizen]

The first thing might be a legal challenge. I just saw on Channel 9's newscast that the police union chief said he would be talking to lawyers and seeing if a legal challenge could be made on the wording of the ballot. I hope he's just upset he lost, and will reconsider. I wouldn't want this to get delayed by a legal challenge; there's virtually no chance of it getting stuck down at least.

I saw that, as well.
It will only serve to add more egg to the face of union bosses.

[Patrick]

The first thing might be a legal challenge. I just saw on Channel 9's newscast that the police union chief said he would be talking to lawyers and seeing if a legal challenge could be made on the wording of the ballot. I hope he's just upset he lost, and will reconsider. I wouldn't want this to get delayed by a legal challenge; there's virtually no chance of it getting stuck down at least.

Anyone remember Moshe Tal? If they try to file a lawsuit, the police union can forever kiss their reputation bye bye in this city, and can forever forget about us ever voting for them anything again. The public has spoken....period. This is a democracy. Majority rules. I couldn't see any judge overturning the will of the people....it could happen, but that judge wouldn't be in office much longer as he/she would become very unpopular.

All I can say in response to the police union chief is.....SORE LOSER!

[soonerguru]

Anyone remember Moshe Tal? If they try to file a lawsuit, the police union can forever kiss their reputation bye bye in this city, and can forever forget about us ever voting for them anything again. The public has spoken....period. This is a democracy. Majority rules. I couldn't see any judge overturning the will of the people....it could happen, but that judge wouldn't be in office much longer as he/she would become very unpopular.

All I can say in response to the police union chief is.....SORE LOSER!

They've already shown that they're completely tone deaf when it comes to their public perception. Idiotic and self-defeating, also. I wouldn't hold my breath hoping for them to get a burst of conscience after the scorched-earth tactics they've already deployed.

[Midtowner]

Anyone remember Moshe Tal? If they try to file a lawsuit, the police union can forever kiss their reputation bye bye in this city, and can forever forget about us ever voting for them anything again.

Wow, I hope not. I think there are legitimate constitutional questions here which need to be answered. While I'm a huge supporter of MAPS, I'm an even bigger fan of the Oklahoma Constitution. And if Article 10, section 19 means what it says, i.e., these sorts of ballot measures should distinctly specify what's being voted on, then the city made a calculated risk that didn't pay off and will have to go back to the drawing board to do things right.

Now, the unions' approach might not be my approach and their reasons for filing the suit may not be pure as the driven snow, but if a lawsuit is filed and these projects are tossed out as unconstitutional, then that's what should happen.

[theavenger]

Anyone remember Moshe Tal? If they try to file a lawsuit, the police union can forever kiss their reputation bye bye in this city, and can forever forget about us ever voting for them anything again. The public has spoken....period. This is a democracy. Majority rules. I couldn't see any judge overturning the will of the people....it could happen, but that judge wouldn't be in office much longer as he/she would become very unpopular.

All I can say in response to the police union chief is.....SORE LOSER!

Here is the story about how Moshe Tal got severely hosed by Oklahoma City and the good old boy system. Even Toby Keith's restaurant is a part of the story:

The Oklahoma Constitution

[andy157]

Here is the story about how Moshe Tal got severely hosed by Oklahoma City and the good old boy system. Even Toby Keith's restaurant is a part of the story:

The Oklahoma Constitution

Here is the rest of the story

Jury Rules In Favor of Taxpayers Group -
Former Oklahoma City Municipal Counselor
Guilty of Malicious Prosecution

After four days of testimony, a Tulsa jury found William Burkett, former Oklahoma City Municipal Counselor, guilty of acting in reckless disregard of the rights of others and acting intentionally and with malice toward others. The jury awarded Moshe Tal, the plaintiff and leader of Taxpayers for Honest Government, actual damages of approximately $27,000 and punitive damages of $50,000. After the trial, some members of the jury said that they hoped verdicts such as this would send a message to public officials letting them know that they are not above the law and that they cannot abuse taxpayers’ rights.

The lawsuit against Burkett for malicious prosecution filed by Moshe Tal stemmed from Burkett’s long-running battle with the taxpayers group which began in February, 2003. At that time, Tal and Taxpayers for Honest Government alleged that the City of Oklahoma City had misappropriated $20 million in tax dollars and that several of its public officials were involved in corrupt dealings and had numerous conflicts of interests.

Rather than doing his job as city attorney and investigating the allegations as required by law, Burkett acted in his personal capacity and three months later filed a libel suit against Tal and the other members of the taxpayers group. An Oklahoma County district judge subsequently ruled against Burkett. Burkett then filed an appeal and the Oklahoma Supreme Court affirmed the lower court’s ruling in 2004.

Tal, representing himself pro se, then sued Burkett for malicious prosecution in Oklahoma County District Court. Eventually the case was transferred to Tulsa County District Court after all Oklahoma County judges either recused themselves or were disqualified. In 2006, the case was assigned to Judge Jefferson Sellers and four years later, Tal got his day in court.

During the trial, Tal claimed that Burkett lacked any factual or legal evidence to sue him and the members of the taxpayers group. Burkett admitted that his primary motive for suing Tal and others was to deter them from filing taxpayer lawsuits against the City of Oklahoma City and questioning the conduct and good old boy relationships of “reputable business people in the community” and the actions of the Mayor and City Council.

Although Burkett argued that he was acting in his personal capacity, Tal also provided evidence to the Judge and Jury showing that Burkett embezzled taxpayers’ money by using city staff, equipment, and materials, including office of municipal counselor stationery, in conducting his personal legal practice and in pursuing the libel lawsuit against Tal and the others.

Tal said that he never lost faith in the justice system even though it took him seven years to get his day in court. “I always believed that if a jury could see and hear all the facts, then they would rule in favor of myself and the other taxpayers who were wronged by Mr. Burkett,” Tal said.
Tal is a business owner and has lived in Oklahoma City since late 1985. In addition to being the Municipal Counselor for Oklahoma City, Burkett has also served as a District Court Judge and as a United States Attorney (prosecuted and convicted a Governor).

For more information contact:

Taxpayers For Honest Government Inc.

[hoya]

If they challenge it, I hope the city brings down the thunder on their contract negotiations from now on. Scorched earth.

[HOT ROD]

I think it would go like this:

1. lay the rails and build stops in the core, so it coincides with the 180 streetscape transformation
2. sidewalk rebuilds, again - so it coincides with the 180 transformation
3. Central Park, so it coinsides with the I-40 completion
1a. building of the transit hub and commuter rail link
4. Convention Center
1b. purchase streetcars (mostly modern, but hopefully a few 'heritage trolleys' as well).
5. Fairgrounds
6. White Water Facility
7. Aquatic centers
1c. if any money left over, streetcar extensions to capitol campus, OCU/Asia District, and hopefully Capital Hill

notice, in my plan - all of the downtown work is first and builds on synergy of other projects including the devon tower, the 180 streetscape, I-40 relocation, the Ford Center expansion, OCU Law, potential highrise residential, and other already announced/planned private investment. I think this should be done to be as frugal as possible - so we can build as large as possible convention center and rail network.

In fact, I hope the city has quietly already planned the initial alignment of the streetcar rail alignment, so bids can go out the same time as the 180 bids do.

Talk about a double whammy stimulous, yet using taxpayer money frugally.

[gmwise]

...
1b. purchase streetcars (mostly modern, but hopefully a few 'heritage trolleys' as well).
....

Hotrod,
if you're talking about those damnable red trolleys we have now, I hope we dont.
They're the most uncomfortable things then a hot rock in the desert.
Service headaches, heating and air conditioning issues..Yes I know they are going to be new,(but I somehow know they're the product of a kickback to someone..) I dislike them with a passion, let the "tourists" get them..egads!

[mugofbeer]

I have a feeling there will be a lot of stuff going on that won't be sexy such as buying land and rights of way, relocation of utilities and tearing down dilapidated structures and cleaning up junk yards.

[Thundercitizen]

I-40 construction will undoubtedly factor into park construction and Oklahoma River project timing, I would imagine.

[smooth]

Since Oklahoma City is an Olympic training site, we really need the river venues first. Then the street car, which can be planned as the river is developed.

[mugofbeer]

I hope the police and fire union leaders aren't so stupid as to try something like that. If they think they will EVER be supported anywhere in this city, that would be a major mistake.

[betts]

I'm hoping, now that we've got all sorts of new things to work on, that the mayor's focus on the boulevard lessens. Maybe we need to push for a boulevard with a smaller number of lanes.

[BoulderSooner]

don't discount the possibility of loans going out to the city at small % rates to build some of these things now .. the river stuff first and fore most ..

[Midtowner]

don't discount the possibility of loans going out to the city at small % rates to build some of these things now .. the river stuff first and fore most ..

I'm not certain the city can authorize bonds without another vote.

If it can, this might be a worthy loophole in ANY constitutional issue. In one of the Fent cases where some projects were cancelled because of logrolling concerns, one project was actually greenlit because bonds had already been issued.

I guess the moral of the story is that if you plan to violate the Constitution, do it with gusto and you might get away with it...

[mugofbeer]

I'm not certain the city can authorize bonds without another vote.

If it can, this might be a worthy loophole in ANY constitutional issue. In one of the Fent cases where some projects were cancelled because of logrolling concerns, one project was actually greenlit because bonds had already been issued.

I guess the moral of the story is that if you plan to violate the Constitution, do it with gusto and you might get away with it...

Why would we do this and just end up raising the cost of everything? Patience is a virtue.....

[gmwise]

....Patience is a virtue.....

America is a fast society..
We go into debt to fight not only unnecessary but poorly planned occupational ones.
We go in debt personally for bright and shiney things.

we have fast food..

fast weight loss..ie liposuction
We just want it NOW

see how i worked those together?

[Larry OKC]

I'm not certain the city can authorize bonds without another vote.

If it can, this might be a worthy loophole in ANY constitutional issue. In one of the Fent cases where some projects were cancelled because of logrolling concerns, one project was actually greenlit because bonds had already been issued.

I guess the moral of the story is that if you plan to violate the Constitution, do it with gusto and you might get away with it...

No vote needed, it is already authorized. Similar language was in the Ford and most likely in MAPS & MAPS for Kids, but from the MAPS 3 ordinance:

§ 52-23.4. (d) (7) If deemed necessary or appropriate by the City Council for cash-flow purposes, for the payment of principal and interest on and the costs of issuance of bonds, notes, lines-of-credit, or other evidences of indebtedness issued by a public trust with the City as its beneficiary for the purpose of providing a City capital improvement.

As we have learned, cash flow purposes can apply to severe cost over-runs (bond issues were going to happen with MAPS according to an article posted by Doug and a Journal Record one about the same time).

EPA challenge gets OKC council eye Journal Record (9/9/1997)

...That, however, won’t cover the already known $7.4 million shortfall in the budget for the Civic Center Music Hall and $10 million in costs for the Library/Learning Center now to be paid for with bond money instead of MAPS sales taxes, saddling the city with about $1 million in annual debt service for 20 years, according to the city’s finance director.

[Kerry]

Realistically, the rails are going to have to go in first. Once rails are in place private sector development will take off and you want to get the private sector involved as soon as possible. No one is going to build a 600 room hotel until they know where the tracks are. They simply won't risk that kind of money and then find out they are 3 blocks from the nearest station.

People might buy land on speculation about where the rails will go but no one is going to sink money into construction until there are parallel veins of iron running down the street. You only need to look at downtown Memphis to see what kind of private development will take place along tracks in downtown OKC. The sooner that development can start the better.

[Urban Pioneer]

How about let's closet the torches for a few days and try to celebrate please? If they contest this the public will crucify them.