OKC Public Safety Already Has a Permanent Funding Source From Sales Tax

[okcpulse]

As I just posted on another thread, .75% of Oklahoma City's 3.875% municipal sales tax already goes to fire and police protection. I'll once again post the breakdown of OKC's sales tax structure...

4.5% goes to the state.
3.875% goes to the city. Of that 3.875%...

1% goes to fund MAPS (temporary... in this case Ford Center upgrade)
2% goes to the general budget (Permanent)
.75% goes to police and fire (Permanent)
.125% goes to the Oklahoma City Zoo (Permanent)

And once again, the sales tax rate isn't even going to change, so it is in no way going to impact people's pocket books as we've been paying the rate for ten years.

So, since police and fire already has a permanent funding source from sales tax, and are attacking the temporary funding source for MAPS 3, a program whose projects ARE VITAL to continue elevating Oklahoma City's quality of life, I have only one question left for the opposition...

Do you care to change your bull**** story?

[Doug Loudenback]

In fairness to the other side, Pulse, the 3/4 cent earmarked sales tax has been around since 1989 but the amount is obviously not enough enough to provide for permanent staffing of additional fire fighters and police. I've suggested in another thread that, if the public favors the union staffing need position that an additional dedicated tax of another 1/4 cent or so shouldn't have that much trouble passing.

[okcpulse]

In fairness to the other side, Pulse, the 3/4 cent earmarked sales tax has been around since 1989 but the amount is obviously not enough enough to provide for permanent staffing of additional fire fighters and police. I've suggested in another thread that, if the public favors the union staffing need position that an additional dedicated tax of another 1/4 cent or so shouldn't have that much trouble passing.

I agree, however, that 3/4 of a cent is in addition to a good portion of the 2% tax that goes to the city's general fund.

In all honesty, this whole thing sounds like a completely seperate issue from MAPS that public safety needs to work out with the city. It didn't become public until MAPS3 went public.

The whole "I won't do this for you unless you do this for me" is just juvenile.

[andy157]

According to the City's adopted budget for FY/09-10, here is a breakdown of the 3/4 cent Public Safety Sales Tax. The Revenue (income) figures are ESTIMATES, Personal Service Expenditures (expense) represents the ESTIMATED wages and benefits for the 200 additional Firefighters, and the 200 additional Police Officers for which the tax was meant to fund, as well as, obligated to fund. The Transfer figures represent money being shifted from the PSST over to the City's General Fund. What this means in plain english is Transfers = General Fund (income) relief. Transfer amounts are ACTUAL not estimates. The City makes sure they get each and every single penny back into their General Fund.(Personal Disclosure)Transfers= Kickback.

Fire Revenue- $34,937,773.
Expense- $21,951,210.
Transfer- $11,263,377.

Police Revenue- $34,937,773.
Expense- $23,707,114.
Transfer- $ 8,647,270.

Total Revenue- $69,875,546.
Expense- $45,658,324.
Transfer- $19,910,647.

Here are two more important facts. The City inflates the actual per Firefighter expense for bugetary purposes. The City holds vacancies throughout the fiscal year( in FY/03-04 they held 43). These two factors inflated cost and not filling vacant positions create savings to the budget.

The approximate amount of $4,306,575. that remains is divided between the F & P departments and used for other misc. expenses, capitol outlay, or held as a Fund Balance (savings account).

[okcpulse]

According to the City's adopted budget for FY/09-10, here is a breakdown of the 3/4 cent Public Safety Sales Tax. The Revenue (income) figures are ESTIMATES, Personal Service Expenditures (expense) represents the ESTIMATED wages and benefits for the 200 additional Firefighters, and the 200 additional Police Officers for which the tax was meant to fund, as well as, obligated to fund. The Transfer figures represent money being shifted from the PSST over to the City's General Fund. What this means in plain english is Transfers = General Fund (income) relief. Transfer amounts are ACTUAL not estimates. The City makes sure they get each and every single penny back into their General Fund.(Personal Disclosure)Transfers= Kickback.

Fire Revenue- $34,937,773.
Expense- $21,951,210.
Transfer- $11,263,377.

Police Revenue- $34,937,773.
Expense- $23,707,114.
Transfer- $ 8,647,270.

Total Revenue- $69,875,546.
Expense- $45,658,324.
Transfer- $19,910,647.

Here are two more important facts. The City inflates the actual per Firefighter expense for bugetary purposes. The City holds vacancies throughout the fiscal year( in FY/03-04 they held 43). These two factors inflated cost and not filling vacant positions create savings to the budget.

The approximate amount of $4,306,575. that remains is divided between the F & P departments and used for other misc. expenses, capitol outlay, or held as a Fund Balance (savings account).

I think we can all admit that sales tax revenue is not a stable funding source for something as critical as police and fire protection. Unfortunately, the Oklahoma Constitution prohibits municipalities from using property tax for general operations. GO bonds can pay for additional funding, but just like MAPS, GO bonds are temporary. Citizens would be asked to repeatedly vote for a new CIP for police and fire every few years just to keep funding alive.

[Wambo36]

I think we can all admit that sales tax revenue is not a stable funding source for something as critical as police and fire protection. Unfortunately, the Oklahoma Constitution prohibits municipalities from using property tax for general operations. GO bonds can pay for additional funding, but just like MAPS, GO bonds are temporary. Citizens would be asked to repeatedly vote for a new CIP for police and fire every few years just to keep funding alive.

Thanks Andy for the figures. Pulse, does that still sound like a bull**** story? The city has been reducing their general fund obligation to the police and fire departments since the 3/4 cent sales tax passed. They reduced the number of FF and PO's paid for in the general fund so that we will never see the 200 ADDITIONAL FF's the tax was supposed to provide for. In the last ten years the FD call volume has increased by 85% while they have lost 49 positions. Hardly what the people voted for. They've become very creative in their methods of diverting these funds but anyone with a fair eye can see through their bull**** story. I still can't believe these are the people you are trusting with this vague ballot.

[Laramie]

In fairness to the other side, Pulse, the 3/4 cent earmarked sales tax has been around since 1989 but the amount is obviously not enough enough to provide for permanent staffing of additional fire fighters and police. I've suggested in another thread that, if the public favors the union staffing need position that an additional dedicated tax of another 1/4 cent or so shouldn't have that much trouble passing.

Good point Doug; We passed one for the zoo and it has been productive and the animals are quiet for now; maybe we can pass a permanent sales (1/4 penny sales tax) for police & fire; this could quiet them until MAPS 4--expanded Rail, Soccer/Track/Football Stadium, and MAPS One aging improvements...

[MGE1977]

Good point Doug; We passed one for the zoo and it has been productive and the animals are quiet for now; maybe we can pass a permanent sales (1/4 penny sales tax) for police & fire; this could quiet them until MAPS 4--expanded Rail, Soccer/Track/Football Stadium, and MAPS One aging improvements...

Listen mac, P.S. has always backed MAPS projects, until THIS MAPS hence the name of the campaign. You're using a bad tone, insinuating that we are like animals and you are marginalizing people. If the city gets its stuff in a pile, puts its money where it is needed first (back into personnel for all departments), and then pushes MAPS - right on. P.S. is below agreed upon staffing numbers, agreed upon numbers, Atari what do you think would happen if we fought this fight retrospectively to an MIII passage. I can say honestly that a fat council with properly lined pockets would deny every request, every need as is their custom during times of negotiation. P.S. will not strike, it is against the law, and more importantly against the ethics upon which rest their profession in providing safety to the masses, what they have is good faith negotiations, the city crapped on that idea and we are where we are. This is not unions holding progress hostage, this is progress threatening to cripple and weaken the legs upon which it stands. City leaders are claiming theirs is the path of growth, certainly they've spread enough manure to grow their money tree from the Yes voters.

[flintysooner]

As I understand it there is also the question about whether or not the money collected is being used for other purposes.

[andy157]

As I just posted on another thread, .75% of Oklahoma City's 3.875% municipal sales tax already goes to fire and police protection. I'll once again post the breakdown of OKC's sales tax structure...

4.5% goes to the state.
3.875% goes to the city. Of that 3.875%...

1% goes to fund MAPS (temporary... in this case Ford Center upgrade)
2% goes to the general budget (Permanent)
.75% goes to police and fire (Permanent)
.125% goes to the Oklahoma City Zoo (Permanent)

And once again, the sales tax rate isn't even going to change, so it is in no way going to impact people's pocket books as we've been paying the rate for ten years.

So, since police and fire already has a permanent funding source from sales tax, and are attacking the temporary funding source for MAPS 3, a program whose projects ARE VITAL to continue elevating Oklahoma City's quality of life, I have only one question left for the opposition...

Do you care to change your bull**** story?

Since the tax rate is the focus of this thread, for clarification purposes I have a question. When you say attack, in what context are you using it for? Attacking in general? Attacking the current rate? Attacking by using a portion of the use tax? I just curious. FYI in the next week I will be compiling some facts and figures regarding the 3/4 PS Sales Tax

[okcpulse]

Since the tax rate is the focus of this thread, for clarification purposes I have a question. When you say attack, in what context are you using it for? Attacking in general? Attacking the current rate? Attacking by using a portion of the use tax? I just curious. FYI in the next week I will be compiling some facts and figures regarding the 3/4 PS Sales Tax

I really shoudn't use the word attack, but public safety's opposition to the 1% temporary sales tax being used to fund MAPS3.

[Tier2City]

I also posted this in another forum:

I understand the total OKC Public Safety Budget is $290 million. If 1% sales tax equates to $100 million, where is the rest of Public Safety being funded from in addition to the dedicated public safety 0.75%/$75 million sales tax?

I'd like to know all the sources for total annual Public Safety spending.

[iron76hd]

I

n fairness to the other side, Pulse, the 3/4 cent earmarked sales tax has been around since 1989 but the amount is obviously not enough enough to provide for permanent staffing of additional fire fighters and police. I've suggested in another thread that, if the public favors the union staffing need position that an additional dedicated tax of another 1/4 cent or so shouldn't have that much trouble passing.

Exactly!


Why didn't the Mayor initially lead the idea of additional support for City Services. Through a tax or whatever. He's saying he's willing to do it now as an afterthought.

On Flash Point this morning he says....In one breath he says they are "separate issues". Then in the other he tells us he planned to use the "USE" tax from MAPS3 to support police and fire....in the same Flash Point he says if MAPS3 doesn't pass our Police and Fire Problems will multiply.

Our problems are going to multiply all of the sudden now?...IF MAPS3 doesn't pass....So we definitely have a problem...by his admission...so why hasn't he addressed it??

Geez..

[hipsterdoofus]

I like how a park is "vital" compared to police and fire services. Seriously? Some people on here seem to have completely lost perspective. I don't claim to know the whole story with the police and fire stuff, but you are sure buying what the mayor is selling when you think that the city will dry up and blow away without MAPS 3.

[betts]

I like how a park is "vital" compared to police and fire services. Seriously? Some people on here seem to have completely lost perspective. I don't claim to know the whole story with the police and fire stuff, but you are sure buying what the mayor is selling when you think that the city will dry up and blow away without MAPS 3.

It's not going to dry up and blow away, but do you really think Oklahoma City is anywhere near where it could be, or should be if we want to be taken seriously as a major city? Can you not look at the massive changes MAPS created and think that MAPS 3 has the potential to do the same? As I've said, we're so far behind some of the other cities we want to emulate that if we stop improving things, we risk staying as far behind or falling farther behind. I want to catch up, and that takes action. What amuses me is that we keep seeing all this "rich people" paranoia, and yet, if we as a city don't improve ourself, we have to sit back and expect those "rich people" to do it for us. Rich people don't put in streetcars or mass transit or build public parks (except for Larry Nichols, to whom I am incredibly grateful, but who is the exception rather than the rule), they don't build sidewalks or bike trails. We need to be proactive as a city and as citizens, and work to make this a better place in which to live, to remove that "backwater" and "dustbowl" image we've got, to make this a vibrant, progressive city.

[iron76hd]

We need to be proactive as a city and as citizens, and work to make this a better place in which to live, to remove that "backwater" and "dustbowl" image we've got, to make this a vibrant, progressive city.

Yea let's be like Houston. We already lead them in 3 of 7 Major crime categories. We beat them in Rape, Burglary, and Theft. We are neck and neck in Assaults. And they have 2 Million People in their city.

We lead Phoenix in Rape, Burglary, Theft and Assault.

Seattle...We lead them in Murders, Rape, Assault, Burglary and Theft.

Violent Crime Rates On The Rise | KSBI Thunder TV | News Sports Radar Weather Cams | Oklahoma City | News

Big League City alright. Betts looks like your priorities are in line with the Mayor's. Unfortunately, you and the Mayor's good "quality of life" are a little out of the "norm" shall we say....

[okcpulse]

Yea let's be like Houston. We already lead them in 3 of 7 Major crime categories. We beat them in Rape, Burglary, and Theft. We are neck and neck in Assaults. And they have 2 Million People in their city.

We lead Phoenix in Rape, Burglary, Theft and Assault.

Seattle...We lead them in Murders, Rape, Assault, Burglary and Theft.

Violent Crime Rates On The Rise | KSBI Thunder TV | News Sports Radar Weather Cams | Oklahoma City | News

Big League City alright. Betts looks like your priorities are in line with the Mayor's. Unfortunately, you and the Mayor's good "quality of life" are a little out of the "norm" shall we say....

Don't throw crime stats in our faces. Police officers arrest criminals, not prevent them from committing crimes. Do you seriously think a rapist is going to check the staffing numbers of OKCPD to determine whether he's going to rape his next victim?

By adequately staffing police, response times will be increased, but it will damn sure not keep someone from busting in.

By increasing the quality of life, you decrease crime rates. Houston may have lower "rates" in some crime categories, but quality of life in Houston is incremental. There's a whole ward the HPD tries not to touch because things are so bad.

[Chance23]

Don't throw crime stats in our faces. Police officers arrest criminals, not prevent them from committing crimes. Do you seriously think a rapist is going to check the staffing numbers of OKCPD to determine whether he's going to rape his next victim?

By adequately staffing police, response times will be increased, but it will damn sure not keep someone from busting in.

By increasing the quality of life, you decrease crime rates. Houston may have lower "rates" in some crime categories, but quality of life in Houston is incremental. There's a whole ward the HPD tries not to touch because things are so bad.

prepare to get trolled!

[blangtang]

By increasing the quality of life, you decrease crime rates.

link(s)? lol! for the troll gallery

[okcpulse]

I like how a park is "vital" compared to police and fire services. Seriously? Some people on here seem to have completely lost perspective. I don't claim to know the whole story with the police and fire stuff, but you are sure buying what the mayor is selling when you think that the city will dry up and blow away without MAPS 3.

I never said the park was "vital" compared to police and fire services. Don't put words into my mouth. BOTH are vital, but public safety using MAPS as a pawn is not the answer. Sorry, but it's not.

Campaigning the city for a better, permanent funding source is the answer, but no one seems to get that through their head. Why didn't they go public with this before MAPS? No one has still been able to answer that one.

[bombermwc]

Well the Police and Fire need to keep something in mind here. By making a fuss about this in the manner they are, they are in danger of losing public support for their cause. If MAPS 3 fails to pass, the citizenry will consider it the fault of Police and Fire now whether they are the real cause of that failure or not. That being said...consider this folks. The next time a vote comes around to support you, the public will remember (and there will be groups making sure the public remembers) how MAPS 3 failed, and how we missed out on continuing our path to improving our city because some people got their feelings hurt.

You guys haven't considered what type of fight you've picked can have on your case. Who's going to vote for an increase in taxes for you if you complain all the time? Look at the OK County Sherrif for an example of how that always backfires. You need to have your own campaign to help your cause...not fighting one that improves the city WITHOUT question. The rationalization of the groups of how MAPS3 is unneccessary is very shortsighted. If we all thought that way, we would never have had MAPS 1...and where would we be today? We'd be continuing to decline and fall off the radar, losing population and losing even more money for you.

The best plan of actions is to #1, seek out federal grants to purchase the equipment you need. That removes the burdon of those dollars on your normal budget...freeing them up for employee expenses. #2, seek out bonds to do more of the same. This same policy has worked for other cities in the metro...look at MWC. They have the best rating in the state, and they aren't getting extra tax dollars from their citizens. It's just managed better...even including the new stations (bonds...hello). #3, if these things aren't working, start a campaign to let the public know of the problems...it's your job to convince them that we need to help out and add a bit of taxes. We're already one of the lowest taxes around, we can bump it up some and still be one of the lowest. If you explain things rationally without kicking dirt around on the playground, you'll get a lot more done. We all know HQ needs to be dozed over....but didn't the Santa Fe station get a facelift not long ago? You can't say things aren't being done. But it's your job to convince the public...and pissing and moaning about projects that the citizenry know to help out the city's continual climb, isn't going to help. In fact, it will hurt your argument.

[Wambo36]

You guys haven't considered what type of fight you've picked can have on your case. Who's going to vote for an increase in taxes for you if you complain all the time?

When have you ever heard us complain? Please cite some cases of us complaining other than the current situation. If not for the current goings on you and everyone else would still be blissfully ignorant of what's been going on for the last 10 to 15 years. We tried to work with the people who could fix the problems, only to be told they didn't see a problem. If you can't read some of Andy157's posts and realize why this has come to a head then nothing I can say will help.

This same policy has worked for other cities in the metro...look at MWC. They have the best rating in the state, and they aren't getting extra tax dollars from their citizens. It's just managed better...

I assume you still live in MWC. If so you might want to stop in at one of your local firehouses and find out how they feel about their situation before you use them as an example of how good things can be. I grew up in MWC too, and still have friends who work for the MWCFD. They do have the only ISO rating 1 in the state. They got this because of the hard work and training put in by the men and women at the stations.
Do you know how the city repaid them? Approx. 4-5 years ago, when the 29th St. construction was starting to kick at full speed, the city manager came to the police and fire employees and told them that if they would forego raises for 4 years they would use that money for infrastructure to speed the 29th St. project up. After this time they would catch the police and fire employees up in pay to where they should be. 4 years later when they came to the city and asked to be caught up they were denied. You see the city manager had died and his assistant (who was well aware of the agreement) had taken his place. His response was "I didn't make that agreement with you". Now they have reached an agreement with their city, but only after a prolonged fight.
So unless you know what goes on behind the doors, don't assume you know more about what's happening than we do. We are very aware of the risks associated with our stance.

[iron76hd]

There's a whole ward the HPD tries not to touch because things are so bad.

Flushed your credibility down the tubes. Your WRONG! I'm not surprised.

Houston PD officer says. That 5th ward was very crime ridden 25 to 30 years ago and did have one of the higher crime rates. Today, it's not even in the top 5 of crime ridden beats. The Southwest side of the city has the higher crime rates and has for several years. Their high crime rates are due to what he called "new arrivals". Illegal immigrants.
There is no part of the city "they won't touch".
So unless you know what goes on behind the doors, don't assume you know more about what's happening than we do.
That's some sound advice for you. Consider taking it.

[okcpulse]

Flushed your credibility down the tubes. Your WRONG! I'm not surprised.

Houston PD officer says. That 5th ward was very crime ridden 25 to 30 years ago and did have one of the higher crime rates. Today, it's not even in the top 5 of crime ridden beats. The Southwest side of the city has the higher crime rates and has for several years. Their high crime rates are due to what he called "new arrivals". Illegal immigrants.
There is no part of the city "they won't touch".
So unless you know what goes on behind the doors, don't assume you know more about what's happening than we do.
That's some sound advice for you. Consider taking it.

Hey now, there is no need to attack me. I never assumed anything, much less know more about what is happening. If I am told this by someone in uniform, I can't assume the guy is an idiot. I am not a Houston native, so I have to take their word.

[How to rock]

LarryOKC,
Concerning councilman Marrs comment about the two-thirds of the general fund going to public safety. I would like to clarify that the amount he is talking about includes all of the public safety services (police, fire, EMSA, 911 call center).

With that being said, he is very careful NOT to talk about how the City has not increased the number of authorized positions within the police department since 1989. Councilman Marrs is also very careful NOT to mention that the City has made the decision to decrease the number of officers assigned to patrol duties during this same time. These decisions have been made while the City has increased by over 100,000 people and over 55,000 commercial/residential structures have been added.

Finally, the City also does not like to talk about how this has caused the response time to priority one calls to increase to almost ten minutes seventy percent of the time. The earliest response time information available from the City is from 1996 and that shows that ALL priority one calls were responded to in an average of just over seven minutes.

Visit the following link for more facts:
http://www.okcissues.com/okcissues.c...S%20info-1.pdf

You can also check out a Powerpoint presented by chief Citty to the city council in February of 2009 at the following link:
http://www.okcissues.com/okcissues.c...powerpoint.pdf

I believe I have posted this information on another thread but I thought it was worth pointing out here.