OKC Police & Fire needs

[metro]

Okay, I decided to start a thread on these "urgent needs" expressed by a couple posters that are derailing other threads. Several members suggested to start a new thread for that topic, so here you go. Discuss the "urgent needs" of the Police and Fire Depts. I'm all for supporting them, just wondering why they are waiting until now to raise a fuss if it's been a problem for 9 years. How come they didn't boycott MAPS for Kids, or even the recent MAPS for Ford Center Improvements?

[kevinpate]

because they are bball fans?
because they knew having lots more folks flooding downtown was to their benefit when they did make a call for action?
because I don't know?
ding ding, we have a winnah!

[ThePlainsman]

OK, I'm game. I support MAPS and will continue to support it. However, since we have police/fire folks clamoring for attention, here's what I want to know. Just some facts. I'm a big boy and will form my own opinion based on the facts provided. 1)How many police officers and firemen are currently active in OKC? 2)How does that compare with similar-sized cities across America? 3)How do OKC crime statistics compare with other similar-sized cities? 4)I'd prefer raw numbers instead of percentages, 5)How does the management structure compare to other cities of similar size?

If one of you folks can provide these FACTS, and these facts bear out some dissonance with similar situated cities, then, I'm open to suggestions in terms of solutions.

Just put some facts out there. Real facts. Cite some sources.

[smooth]

OK, I'm game. I support MAPS and will continue to support it. However, since we have police/fire folks clamoring for attention, here's what I want to know. Just some facts. I'm a big boy and will form my own opinion based on the facts provided. 1)How many police officers and firemen are currently active in OKC? 2)How does that compare with similar-sized cities across America? 3)How do OKC crime statistics compare with other similar-sized cities? 4)I'd prefer raw numbers instead of percentages, 5)How does the management structure compare to other cities of similar size?

If one of you folks can provide these FACTS, and these facts bear out some dissonance with similar situated cities, then, I'm open to suggestions in terms of solutions.

Just put some facts out there. Real facts. Cite some sources.

I don't remember exact numbers, however, there are over 1,000 uniformed personnel in each department. Both are short staffed.

Although one of the last bond issues provided a major remodel of the police headquarters building, it needs to be replaced. It is too small and outdated.

In addition, the fire department always has an urgent need for new motorized equipment. The latest round are manufactured by Farara based in Louisiana, and are really smooth, nice air conditioning, and LED lights. The older equipment breaks down often and feel like riding on an old buckboard. Plus, they are slow and don't have enough water storage.

About 1/3 of the fire stations are in horible condition and need replacing. Most have drives that allow entry from the rear, however, many don't. Some are being replaced, however, many more are needed. Plus, the outlining areas need more stations.

If you want sources, then you are welcome to contact the public information division of each department. You can also visit a fire station and see it first hand.

[SHADES]

[QUOTE=smooth;262252]I don't remember exact numbers, however, there are over 1,000 uniformed personnel in each department. Both are short staffed.

I have checked there are currently 948 budgeted fire department positions of which only about 930 are currently filled. Police and Fire both supported each of the first two MAPS with a promise that MAPS would support public safety through this growth the city would receive. However a recent study by the city showed that the police department was 200 officers short and the fire department has lost 51 position since MAPS began. Also, both departments were given notice of a 2% budget cut the same week the Mayor announced the MAPS 3 project resulting in more staffing cuts to public safety. Police and Fire both tried to convince the Mayor of including public safety with MAPS 3, but the Mayor and city council did nothing about it.

They support MAPS, but not this MAPS.

[Slivermoon]

Regarding the earlier question if an election has been called for a public vote on the fire union contract. From the September 29 City Council meeting minutes.

SIRE WebCenter - Published Meeting Viewer

VIII. T.
1. Resolution rejecting the September 7, 2009, and September 15, 2009, decisions in FMCS No. 090414-55718-8; calling for and authorizing the Mayor to issue a Proclamation calling a special election within The City of Oklahoma City for the purpose of submitting the two last best offers submitted by the City and the International Association of Firefighters, Local 157, to the interest arbitration board in FMCS No. 090414-55718-8 to the qualified, registered voters of The City of Oklahoma City for their selection;

2. AND
Proclamation of the Mayor calling a special election within The City of Oklahoma City for the purpose of submitting the two last best offers submitted by the City and the International Association of Firefighters, Local 157, to the interest arbitration board in FMCS No. 090414-55718-8 to the qualified, registered voters of The City of Oklahoma City for their selection;

AND/OR

3. Enter into executive session to discuss collective bargaining negotiations for fiscal year 2009-2010 with the International Association of Firefighters, Local 157, as authorized by 25 O.S. (2008 Supp.) §307(B)(2);

AND/OR

4. Enter into executive session on advice of the Municipal Counselor to receive confidential communications from its attorney regarding the interest arbitration proceeding between the City and the International Association of Firefighters, Local 157, in FMCS No. 090414-55718-8, as authorized by 25 O.S. (2008 Supp.) §307(B)(4), because disclosure would seriously impair the ability of the public body to conduct the pending proceeding.

ADOPTED: T. 1-2. CALLING AN ELECTION FOR FEBRUARY 9, 2010. SETTING RESOLUTION PUBLICATIONS DATES FOR JANUARY 20 AND 27, AND FEBRUARY 3, 2010 AND SETTING PROCLAMATION PUBLICATION DATES FOR JANUARY 27 AND FEBRUARY 3, 2010. MOVED BY RYAN, SECONDED BY SALYER. AYES: MAYOR CORNETT, BOWMAN, MCATEE, WHITE, WALTERS, SALYER, KELLY, AND RYAN. ABSENT: MARRS. ENTERED INTO EXECUTIVE SESSION: T. 3. MOVED BY RYAN, SECONDED BY SALYER. AYES: MAYOR CORNETT, MARRS, BOWMAN, MCATEE, WHITE, WALTERS, SALYER, KELLY, AND RYAN. ENTERED INTO EXECUTIVE SESSION: T. 4. MOVED BY WALTERS, SECONDED BY SALYER. AYES: MAYOR CORNETT, BOWMAN, MCATEE, WHITE, WALTERS, SALYER, KELLY, AND RYAN. ABSENT: MARRS. MUNICIPAL COUNSELOR’S OFFICE.

There was also a story in the on-line version of the Oklahoman on this subject. Sounded like no one really wanted it to come to this point.

[zulu5bravo]

OK, I'm game. I support MAPS and will continue to support it. However, since we have police/fire folks clamoring for attention, here's what I want to know. Just some facts. I'm a big boy and will form my own opinion based on the facts provided. 1)How many police officers and firemen are currently active in OKC? 2)How does that compare with similar-sized cities across America? 3)How do OKC crime statistics compare with other similar-sized cities? 4)I'd prefer raw numbers instead of percentages, 5)How does the management structure compare to other cities of similar size?

If one of you folks can provide these FACTS, and these facts bear out some dissonance with similar situated cities, then, I'm open to suggestions in terms of solutions.

Just put some facts out there. Real facts. Cite some sources.

Can you not research these facts yourself voter or will you vote without knowing these facts because they weren't handed to you on this forum? You will "continue to support MAPS"... it's pointless to discuss this with you... your mind is made up. That's a real fact - uninformed voter.

[ThePlainsman]

Nice reply zulu5bravo. I did take some time and get some facts. In fact, Patrick posted many FACTS here and there. You are right about one thing--my mind is made up on MAPS, I am supporting it. People like you are helping to make my mind up in regards to police and fire issues as well. This past weekend, after talking to a buddy of mine who is currently and has been with OKCFD for about 15 years now, I was inclined to be more open to those issues. Btw, two quotes from him "we are spending a ton of money opposing" and "I support Maps though". In my original post, I asked someone on the police/fire side of things to provide facts and they didn't. They provided opinions. I could not care less about your opinion. Seriously. What you think means absolutely nothing to me. As stated, I'm a big boy and will form my own opinion based on facts. You wanted my support, so I asked you to earn it by providing some comparative statistics--You didn't. And with people like you leading the charge, you aren't going to win much support. Lastly, you seem, from your posts, to be inappropriately hostile.

[zulu5bravo]

OK, I'm game. I support MAPS and will continue to support it. However, since we have police/fire folks clamoring for attention, here's what I want to know. Just some facts. I'm a big boy and will form my own opinion based on the facts provided. 1)How many police officers and firemen are currently active in OKC? 2)How does that compare with similar-sized cities across America? 3)How do OKC crime statistics compare with other similar-sized cities? 4)I'd prefer raw numbers instead of percentages, 5)How does the management structure compare to other cities of similar size?

If one of you folks can provide these FACTS, and these facts bear out some dissonance with similar situated cities, then, I'm open to suggestions in terms of solutions.

Just put some facts out there. Real facts. Cite some sources.

You can be open to terms of solutions all day long. The council voted... city workers shortages will not be considered. The council never wanted to discuss it... Did you watch the meeting? I was there personally. Regardless, MAPS will fail, with or without city worker support. As Skip Kelly said, "Let the voters decide". The votes will dictate it all so I or anyone else trying to appease or solicit your vote is meaningless at this point.

Live on Utopia!

[metro]

and heaven forbid our media do any research and demand facts and comparisons, they just allow the sensationalism from the fire and police on camera, without doing any real journalism.

[kevinpate]

I don't know of the needs are real, perceived or simply desired.

As to the media, giving time to anyone with the call of "It's to protect you and your children" is often a close second to "It's for the children", irrespective of what It may be.


FWIW, my limited dealing with OKCS Fire and OKC Police suggests to me they are good peeps doing hard work.

[zulu5bravo]

and heaven forbid our media do any research and demand facts and comparisons, they just allow the sensationalism from the fire and police on camera, without doing any real journalism.

Because the "facts" don't support the media is why? Are you just now coming to that realization? When has the media demanded facts and comparisons with our present economic downturn? When?

[Midtowner]

Their opposition amounts to no more than a union bargaining ploy. They weren't given raises for 2009 due to the economy and are hellbent on pressuring the city to reconsider that decision.

This is pretty shortsighted on their part since the only way we can pay them is by increasing tax revenues which can only be achieved through developing a larger tax base which can only happen if... well you get the idea.

[andy157]

Their opposition amounts to no more than a union bargaining ploy. They weren't given raises for 2009 due to the economy and are hellbent on pressuring the city to reconsider that decision.

This is pretty shortsighted on their part since the only way we can pay them is by increasing tax revenues which can only be achieved through developing a larger tax base which can only happen if... well you get the idea.

Midtowner, for what it's worth I have always respected your views, and on most subjects I agree with what you have to say 99% of the time. But with all due respect, for you to say this is a Union ploy to get a raise is incorrect. Though I doubt it will happen, I would love the opportunity to give you the facts, figures, and some of the history of whats happen and in most cases not happen since Maps 1. It may not change your mind, but it might explain why this line in the sand has been drawn.

[OSUFan]

Midtowner, for what it's worth I have always respected your views, and on most subjects I agree with what you have to say 99% of the time. But with all due respect, for you to say this is a Union ploy to get a raise is incorrect. Though I doubt it will happen, I would love the opportunity to give you the facts, figures, and some of the history of whats happen and in most cases not happen since Maps 1. It may not change your mind, but it might explain why this line in the sand has been drawn.

So please explain what the unions will gain directly by opposing and trying to defeat MAPS? How does this help them achieve their goals? What does staff shortages have to do with MAPS 3? Maybe I'm missing something but if MAPS fails we are still at square one with the unions correct? Help me see how these are two related issues.

[Patrick]

So please explain what the unions will gain directly by opposing and trying to defeat MAPS? How does this help them achieve their goals? What does staff shortages have to do with MAPS 3? Maybe I'm missing something but if MAPS fails we are still at square one with the unions correct? Help me see how these are two related issues.

[Midtowner]

Midtowner, for what it's worth I have always respected your views, and on most subjects I agree with what you have to say 99% of the time. But with all due respect, for you to say this is a Union ploy to get a raise is incorrect. Though I doubt it will happen, I would love the opportunity to give you the facts, figures, and some of the history of whats happen and in most cases not happen since Maps 1. It may not change your mind, but it might explain why this line in the sand has been drawn.

Andy, thanks for your response. If you look around the country, (and I really don't have the answer to this) how does OKC compare insofar as the equipment our emergency personnel are using, facilities, etc. as compared to peer cities?

Surely you can't actually expect to always have the newest and best equipment. All equipment has an expected usability time -- it's good for a few years, it's passable for a few more, then it has outlived its life. Where are we on that curve?

The city recently passed some major bond issues to benefit the Fire Department and Police Department. Some are saying those measures are inadequate. You've probably read my posts and you know when it comes to any sort of government, I've said it before -- no government worker ever thinks their situation is adequate. More and better is always available because supplying municipalities with cool equipment is the business of lots of folks... but when it comes to what the taxpayers need, newer/cooler equipment might not always be the best use of funds.

The equipment and facilities are there to help you do an adequate job, so what is not getting done and why are the present facilities, including those paid for in the 2007 bond issue not adequate? And how can opposing MAPS cure these ills? I'm open to information here, and I think this is a great place for you to be making your case. I came to know tonight in a very dramatic way that city leaders and opinion leaders do read this board. So if I'm wrong and this isn't a collective bargaining ploy, what is it? What's going on?

[LakeEffect]

Their opposition amounts to no more than a union bargaining ploy. They weren't given raises for 2009 due to the economy and are hellbent on pressuring the city to reconsider that decision.

This is pretty shortsighted on their part since the only way we can pay them is by increasing tax revenues which can only be achieved through developing a larger tax base which can only happen if... well you get the idea.

[zulu5bravo]

Their opposition amounts to no more than a union bargaining ploy. They weren't given raises for 2009 due to the economy and are hellbent on pressuring the city to reconsider that decision.

This is pretty shortsighted on their part since the only way we can pay them is by increasing tax revenues which can only be achieved through developing a larger tax base which can only happen if... well you get the idea.

Have you heard???? A "raise" isn't even proposed in the current contract... soooo how is that the issue at all? Oh, and we've heard the "increase the tax base" argument before... with the prior MAPS... Well, why if that's the case are all city workers shorthanded to begin with?

Shortsighted indeed.

[Patrick]

Have you heard???? A "raise" isn't even proposed in the current contract... soooo how is that the issue at all? Oh, and we've heard the "increase the tax base" argument before... with the prior MAPS... Well, why if that's the case are all city workers shorthanded to begin with?

Shortsighted indeed.

Oh, it did increase the tax base. I think Steve listed all of the private investment that resulted from MAPS 1. I think the problem now lies more with the sour economy. Prior to that, the city had a few surpluses.

[OCPD Wife]

They did not ask for raises!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Steve]

I'm not taking sides here or entering into the debate. Nor is it up to me to identify the person behind the screen name. But in this case I know Andy, and suffice it to say, he's definitely an expert when it comes to arguments being made by the fire union.

[Patrick]

I'm not taking sides here or entering into the debate. Nor is it up to me to identify the person behind the screen name. But in this case I know Andy, and suffice it to say, he's definitely an expert when it comes to arguments being made by the fire union.

Doesn't take rocket science to figure out it's Andy Summers with IAFF local 157. Why the need for such secrecy? His screenname obviously says who he is. Nothing secret about it. And Andy is a great guy....respect him a lot. We just differ in our opinions.

Simply put, opposing MAPS 3 does nothing to benefit the fire dept. They're simply using MAPS 3 as a leveraging tool to try to get their pay increased. I don't know too many govt jobs right now that are increasing salaries or are hiring. I work as a physician for the VA, and we're on a hiring freeze and experiencing pay cuts. So, why should the OKCFD be any different? Face it, the economy sucks, and deal with it. If anything the MAPS programs have kept our city from losing jobs by keeping major employers like Devon from leaving. It's a good investment.

[andy157]

Doesn't take rocket science to figure out it's Andy Summers with IAFF local 157. Why the need for such secrecy? His screenname obviously says who he is. Nothing secret about it. And Andy is a great guy....respect him a lot. We just differ in our opinions.

Simply put, opposing MAPS 3 does nothing to benefit the fire dept. They're simply using MAPS 3 as a leveraging tool to try to get their pay increased. I don't know too many govt jobs right now that are increasing salaries or are hiring. I work as a physician for the VA, and we're on a hiring freeze and experiencing pay cuts. So, why should the OKCFD be any different? Face it, the economy sucks, and deal with it. If anything the MAPS programs have kept our city from losing jobs by keeping major employers like Devon from leaving. It's a good investment.

Patrick, I'm sorry but your deduction caused me to LOL, Andy Summers will think it funny as well. I mean no disrespect, but you may want to think about re-taking rocket science 101, or a least get some remedial training. Nevertheless, my name is Mike Anderson, there the cat is out of the bag, and if your the Patrick I think you are, we have met. Did I meet with you and Keith S. a few years back? Now that I've outed myself I won't be able to give Fire121 a hard time. Sorry G.H. I still LYLAB

[smooth]

"That doesn't mean a newer fire truck with a better ride isn't going to get to a victim any faster than what we have now."

Actually, it will. The older equipment has been known to break down on the way to an incident. Not often, however, it happens. They even break down before they make it out of the station. So, replacing them with high quality equipment will make it faster. Why? It does't break down.