New Convention Center issue

[metro]

It appears most opposers are opposed to the new convention center idea, even though ours will be 50 years old when/if MAPS 3 passes and completes. For those of you who keep touting the "remodel" a few years ago, that was only to the front facade and a few other things. The arena and the southern half of the exhibit space is stuck in 1970's and is pathetic. Heck, even the remodeled part doesn't stand up to anything almost every decent size city offers. One needs to realize even if you don't use the building, we still generate tens if not hundreds of millions in revenue from our convention center, it is used for local graduations and other ceremonies, as well as large private events. For those of you who say it's not busy all the time, that's because we don't have the quality of amentites that most modern groups demand these days, not to mention the lack of a convention hotel or enough hotel rooms downtown. We can't attract larger groups and more groups if we don't offer comparable amenities.

Nashville is going through the same thing debate right now and they are in a far better position than OKC,

Debate Over Metro's Convention Center Heats Up - NewsChannel 5.com - Nashville, Tennessee -

[LakeEffect]

I don't think we should ever point to a structure's age as simply the reason for change. Let's talk usefulness and spaciousness.

[Midtowner]

Metro, the convention center has had several meaningful renovations in those 50 years. Don't pretend we're really talking about a 50-year-old facility here. That's just not honest.

[OKCisOK4me]

I think a good word is aesthetics. Our current convention center does have a few ugly arse POS rooms, including the arena inside of it. It still looks like it did when I was a kid in 1982 and saw the Sesame Street Show there!

[DelCamino]

Metro, the convention center has had several meaningful renovations in those 50 years. Don't pretend we're really talking about a 50-year-old facility here. That's just not honest.

The only renovation the current convention center has seen since opening in the early 1970's, was the MAPS renovation to the north side of the structure 30 years later. The storage areas on the east, nothing but cosmetics and new utility equipment, as needed. Same for the exhibit space on the west side. Nothing to speak of in the arena itself.

Save for the newer north-side of the building, it's already an almost 40-years old structure, and by the time a new CC would be constructed, if the vote passes, the old lady will be coming up on her golden birthday celebration.

[metro]

Mid, can you HONESTLY say that the convention center is up to snuff with other convention centers in other metros? Have you seen some of the exhibit halls? Some of them haven't been touched. I don't know if you traveled to any conventions elsewhere during law school, but ours sure doesn't come close to cutting it, no matter how many renovations it's supposively had. I sure can't tell where parts of the Cox have EVER been renovated.

[Dustin]

I was inside the cox convention center just recently for a yard dogs game and it was quite depressing to look at. I think a new convention center is long overdue..

[Midtowner]

Mid, can you HONESTLY say that the convention center is up to snuff with other convention centers in other metros? Have you seen some of the exhibit halls? Some of them haven't been touched. I don't know if you traveled to any conventions elsewhere during law school, but ours sure doesn't come close to cutting it, no matter how many renovations it's supposively had. I sure can't tell where parts of the Cox have EVER been renovated.

I never said how it compared with other places. Just that comparing it with a 50-year-old facility is disingenuous.

[khook]

The "Myriad" still survives... go to many of the exhibit halls and you will still see the original Myriad still in place.... the remodels that have occurred have been Half _ss. New Makeup was put on on one side... with some electronic new gadgets added in place to try to get it up to beauty queen standards. But alas she doesn't even get into the running. Or Miss Congeniality.

[soonerguru]

The arena portion of the center is indeed depressing. I noted that at the Flaming Lips show on New Year's Eve.

[blangtang]

Call me dense, but what is this "new" issue with the convention center?

[betts]

The current convention center is certainly not anything to be proud of. It's serviceable at best, and looks terribly out of date, at that. It's hard to get excited about spending money on a convention center, but there is certainly some return, and I think it's difficult to figure out precisely how much. Regardless, I spend more buying coffee every month than MAPS will cost me, by a long shot, so I'm just going to trust the city on this one. If nothing else, it will renew an area of blight, be it the cotton gin or area adjacent to the park, and I'm sure it will provide far more benefit than that, even if it's not a financial windfall.

[Doug Loudenback]

Earnest sincere discussion about the convention center isn't new at all, even if it has not been discussed in the Oklahoman (as far as I recall).

But, it was reported and seriously discussed in the Gazette. Here's what I wrote in my Core To Shore article when discussing various issues, the convention center being one ...

2. Do we really need a new convention center? Other than those who favor a total redirection in favor of light rail, a consensus of those commenting on the topic gives a new convention center the green light, even among those who have other criticisms of the overall proposal. In this group, see Dennis Wells' opinion that the Bricktown canal should be extended to the proposed convention center location which reads like tacit approval, and Bert Belanger expressly says, "I am okay with the MAPs 3 Convention Center Idea just South of the Ford Center."

However, this Gazette article by Scott Cooper raised the possibility that, in fact, the idea of a sparkling new and larger convention center may be overrated.

There is one person who would like to inform the Oklahoma City Council and residents that a new convention center may not be the answer: Heywood Sanders, a researcher with the University of Texas at San Antonio. He has studied the move by cities to construct mega-convention centers since the 1980s and would differ from the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber's consultant conclusion.

"The reality is, there has been a huge increase in the amount of supply (convention space) over the last 10 to 15 years," Sanders said. "Does that mean you get any more business? And the answer in general is 'no'." Since the late 1990s, convention-generated business has been on a downward slide, according to Sanders' research. Yet, during that same time, the number of cities and amount of convention center floor space skyrocketed, along with an increase in nearby hotel rooms. At least 53 cities either built new or expanded existing convention centers since 2000. Between 1986 and 2006, the number of convention centers across the country increased from 193 to 322. But since 1996, the number of convention attendees dropped. Sanders said the current rate of attendance is at 1993 levels.

"One of the things we know is the demand has not grown in the period since 2003," when the country started to come out of the recession caused by the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, he said. "Most (cities) seem to be doing what they did before. It does suggest that as far as going forward, what we are seeing is not just a temporary downturn, particularly on the convention side, but a ratcheting down that may not ratchet back up."

The article presents Greater Oklahoma City Chamber CEO Roy Williams' counterpoint to Heywood Sanders' observations, and, all in all, I found the article to be one of the better give-and-take discussions of MAPS III that I've read.

The Gazette article was published July 22, 2009.

It is unlikely that an article presenting a serious pro/con discussion on the value of a new convention center will appear in the Oklahoman, in my estimation. Maybe I'll be proven wrong ... but ...

Who is the present Chairman of the Board of the Chamber (I generally like the Chamber and think it has done a lot of good for the city, just so that you'll know)? David Thompson. Who is heading up the Chamber's MAPS 3 campaign? David Thompson. See this video and Oklahoman article. Who is president of the OPUBCO Communications Group? David Thompson.

Under these circumstances, what rational and sans-blinders-thinking-person should expect the Oklahoman to be offering articles which may be seen as critical, even seriously questioning, the value of MAPS 3 during its campaign -- the Oklahoman? David Thompson? In this instance, are the 2 names not synonyms?

The point is that, for any news-source objective analysis of MAPS 3, it will almost certainly have to come from a source other than the Oklahoman. When I have occasion to read an Oklahoman article which presents information like the above Gazette article did back in July on the convention center matter, I'll be very pleased to admit the error of my ways.

Please don't misunderstand ... I'll most probably be voting FOR MAPS 3. More, I'm inclined to favor the construction of a new convention center (even if I'd prefer it to be built in the Oil Coop area south of lower Bricktown). But I'll not be making my personal decision through rose colored glasses. It may well be that I'll chose to vote favorably in spite of those who might have me wear them.

[SoonerDave]

This is the one thing that's so backwards to me - the Convention Center is, in my mind, the easiest sell of all, but apparently polls out the worst. Go figure....

[Kerry]

For those interested in seeing how the Cox Convention Center stacks up to other cities click here: US Convention Center Directory | Cvent

Cox is way way way down the list.

[scootinger]

For those interested in seeing how the Cox Convention Center stacks up to other cities click here: US Convention Center Directory | Cvent

Cox is way way way down the list.

Because "Oklahoma" begins with an "O" and not an "A", "B", or "C"?

[oneforone]

My opinion really does not count because I cannot vote. I live in Midwest City.

Anyway... I have no real objections to the actual projects. My obejction is the timing. The Oklahoma Economy could go in the crapper overnight if the government decides to scale back operations at Tinker (chances are about as likely as Tornado in early May) or one of the other major employers like INTEGRIS, Chesapeake, Devon or announces layoffs or goes belly up.

Not to mention what is going to happen if cost skyrocket. Are we going to get stiffed again like we did on the canal and the Ford Center. Everyone expected some kind of grand project with both projects. When they were finally completed most people asked the question "This is it? It's nice and everything but... it's not what I expected. The Ford Center had at least a dozen mistakes.

My main point to the city leaders is, Don't promise a Bentley if all you intend to deliever is a Chevy Impala. Sure the Impala is a nice car but... It is not a Bentley. If MAPS 3 passes, they should do one project at a time, finish it and move on to the next. Don't blow the money on three projects at once in three diffrent parts of the city.

[metro]

My opinion really does not count because I cannot vote. I live in Midwest City.

Anyway... I have no real objections to the actual projects. My obejction is the timing. The Oklahoma Economy could go in the crapper overnight if the government decides to scale back operations at Tinker (chances are about as likely as Tornado in early May) or one of the other major employers like INTEGRIS, Chesapeake, Devon or announces layoffs or goes belly up.

Not to mention what is going to happen if cost skyrocket. Are we going to get stiffed again like we did on the canal and the Ford Center. Everyone expected some kind of grand project with both projects. When they were finally completed most people asked the question "This is it? It's nice and everything but... it's not what I expected. The Ford Center had at least a dozen mistakes.

My main point to the city leaders is, Don't promise a Bentley if all you intend to deliever is a Chevy Impala. Sure the Impala is a nice car but... It is not a Bentley. If MAPS 3 passes, they should do one project at a time, finish it and move on to the next. Don't blow the money on three projects at once in three diffrent parts of the city.

That's how MAPS operates, one or two projects at a time as funding comes in, they don't break ground on all 7 or 8 at once.

[BDP]

The reality is that to vote against a new convention center at this point in time is to vote against the city being in the large convention business at all in a couple of decades. Now, maybe it is the position of some people who oppose the convention center that we should just not be in that industry, but arguing that the Cox Convention center will be even remotely competitive in 20 years is just not valid. It's not that competitive now and many markets, even some smaller than ours, have larger and nicer facilities.

It may not always make sense on a direct income analysis, but there is no question that removing traffic from our larger conventions will have a noticeable effect on our city's hospitality and transportation service, as well as have an affect on the flow of "new" money from outside the market, which has a greater positive economic impact than when it's just money that was already in the economy being reallocated by taxes.

[architect5311]

That's how MAPS operates, one or two projects at a time as funding comes in, they don't break ground on all 7 or 8 at once.

Maybe they should because there was one big issue with all of the MAPS I projects, they were all underfunded, and the City had to come back and ask for more money or shift money from one project to another.

Just saying do it right the first time, put together as accurate a cost estimate as possible, include a large contingency for potential unknown problems, issues which may arise, etc............

[Patrick]

Anyway... I have no real objections to the actual projects. My obejction is the timing. The Oklahoma Economy could go in the crapper overnight if the government decides to scale back operations at Tinker (chances are about as likely as Tornado in early May) or one of the other major employers like INTEGRIS, Chesapeake, Devon or announces layoffs or goes belly up.

Same thing could've been said back in the 1990's when we passed MAPS 1.

Not to mention what is going to happen if cost skyrocket. Are we going to get stiffed again like we did on the canal and the Ford Center. Everyone expected some kind of grand project with both projects. When they were finally completed most people asked the question "This is it? It's nice and everything but... it's not what I expected. The Ford Center had at least a dozen mistakes.

I actually think the canal is what we were promised. An approx. 3/4 mile canal is what we were always promised from day 1. Private development along the canal was never guaranteed or promised.....just the canal...which is built.

And the plan for an arena in MAPS 1 was always just a basic, barebones sports arena with enough seating and size for possible use for NBA/NHL at a later date. We were never promised the Taj Mahal of arenas. Not for $80 million. I'm not really sure what mistakes you're referring to with The Ford Center. Maybe the size of the seating? Specifics like that weren't mentioned when MAPS 1 was proposed. You can't get that specific when you make broad proposals initially. We were simply promised a general basic sports arena with seating for around 20,000 folks.

Sure the Impala is a nice car but... It is not a Bentley.

For $360 million in MAPS 1, we were never promised a Bentley.

If MAPS 3 passes, they should do one project at a time, finish it and move on to the next. Don't blow the money on three projects at once in three diffrent parts of the city.

That's what they did with MAPS 1. They started with the fairgrounds improvements, then the convention center, then the ballpark, then the canal, then the river dams, and then the library. It pretty much went one project at a time as the money was collected.

[Kerry]

Because "Oklahoma" begins with an "O" and not an "A", "B", or "C"?

No, it is because the facilities are ranked by size. There is one part of the site that lists all convention centers alphabetically and the Cox Convention Center starts with a 'C'.

One of the nice things about the site I linked is that it has photos of many of the convention centers. Some are fine hotel quality with stunning architecture and not the brutalism style the Cox Center is done in.

If people don't want a new convention center that is cool. They just don't need to pretend the Cox Center is something it isn't. It is nearly a 50 year old building in an architectural style that should have resulted in architects being burned at the stake and it can't compete with peer facilities for size and functionality.

[gmwise]

Because "Oklahoma" begins with an "O" and not an "A", "B", or "C"?

torpedoes to midships....rofl!!

[CCOKC]

For those interested in seeing how the Cox Convention Center stacks up to other cities click here: US Convention Center Directory | Cvent

Cox is way way way down the list.

My goodness I had no idea how small the Cox Center was comparatively. Even Tulsa's is almost twice as big. Does anybody know if this includes the arena? (I am assuming it does since the bigger shows use the floor of the arena). This should be stressed in the advertising campaign.

[Kerry]

My goodness I had no idea how small the Cox Center was comparatively. Even Tulsa's is almost twice as big. Does anybody know if this includes the arena? (I am assuming it does since the bigger shows use the floor of the arena). This should be stressed in the advertising campaign.

The number does include the arena floor. The Myriad is way smaller than most people think it is. What is sad are all of the cities a lot smaller than OKC that have convention centers with 3 or 4 times as much space.

Convention Centers larger than OKC (ranked by size)

McCormick Place IL - Chicago 2,700,000
Orange County Convention Center FL - Orlando 2,539,559
Las Vegas Convention Center NV - Las Vegas 2,157,235
Georgia World Congress Center GA - Atlanta 1,673,563
New Orleans Morial Convention Center LA - New Orleans 1,508,763
Sands Expo and Convention Center NV - Las Vegas 1,326,807
Dallas Convention Center TX - Dallas / Ft. Worth 1,116,307
The Moscone Center CA - San Francisco 1,037,988
Phoenix Convention Center AZ - Phoenix 1,029,088
George R. Brown Convention Center TX - Houston 1,006,958
Donald E. Stephens Convention Center IL - Chicago 879,000
Jacob K. Javits Convention Center NY - New York 844,780
San Diego Convention Center CA - San Diego 814,035
The Colorado Convention Center CO - Denver 785,403
America's Center MO - St. Louis 781,240
Boston Convention & Exhibition Center MA - Boston 712,799
Tampa Convention Center FL - Tampa 699,643
Henry B. Gonzalez Convention Center TX - San Antonio 691,936
Reno-Sparks Convention Center NV - Reno / Tahoe 656,673
Salt Palace Convention Center UT - Salt Lake City 653,541
Walter E. Washington Convention Center DC - Washington 643,170
Atlantic City Convention Center NJ - Atlantic City 631,856
Miami Beach Convention Center FL - Miami / Ft. Lauderdale 629,830
Kansas City Convention & Entertainment Facilities MO - Kansas City 610,087
Savannah International Trade & Convention Center GA - Savannah 543,742
Indiana Convention Center & RCA Dome IN - Indianapolis 507,030
Greater Columbus Convention Center OH - Columbus 506,149
Oregon Convention Center OR - Portland 490,926
Birmingham-Jefferson Convention Complex AL - Birmingham 485,216
Connecticut Convention Center CT - Hartford 435,395
Cleveland Convention Center OH - Cleveland 431,836
David Lawrence Convention Center PA - Pittsburgh 425,028
Long Beach Convention & Entertainment Center CA - Los Angeles 412,639
Georgia International Convention Center GA - Atlanta 412,477
Charlotte Convention Center NC - Charlotte 404,241
Mississippi Coast Coliseum & Convention Center MS - Biloxi 397,111
Mobile Convention Center AL - Mobile 386,154
Baltimore Convention Center MD - Baltimore 383,352
Carolina First Center SC - Greenville 379,019
Fort Worth Convention Center TX - Dallas / Ft. Worth 374,501
Austin Convention Center TX - Austin 366,893
Hawaii Convention Center HI - Honolulu 363,192
Washington State Convention & Trade Center WA - Seattle 359,881
Spokane Convention Center WA - Spokane 356,870
Palm Beach County Convention Center FL - West Palm Beach 356,162
Greater Fort Lauderdale/Broward County Convention Center FL - Miami / Ft. Lauderdale 324,852
Hot Springs Convention Center AR - Little Rock 314,175
Pennsylvania Convention Center PA - Philadelphia 313,446
Puerto Rico Convention Center PR - San Juan 310,569
Nashville Convention Center TN - Nashville 308,890
San Jose McEnery Convention Center CA - San Francisco 308,495
Duke Energy Convention Center OH - Cincinnati 297,596
Iowa Events Center IA - Des Moines 292,586
Kentucky International Convention Center KY - Louisville 286,162
Memphis Cook Convention Center TN - Memphis 269,556
Cashman Field Center NV - Las Vegas 265,527
Saint Paul Rivercentre MN - Minneapolis / St. Paul 260,100
Greater Richmond Convention Centre VA - Richmond 258,479
Century II Performing Arts & Convention Center KS - Wichita 256,482
John B. Hynes Veterans Memorial Convention Center MA - Boston 256,265
Shreveport Convention Center LA - Shreveport 245,438
Albuquerque Convention Center NM - Albuquerque 242,716
Alliant Energy Center WI - Madison 240,057
Ontario Convention Center CA - Los Angeles 236,389
Santa Clara Convention Center CA - San Francisco 229,807
DeVos Place MI - Grand Rapids 224,207
Tucson Convention Center AZ - Tucson 218,914
Knoxville Convention/Exhibition Center TN - Knoxville 214,018
Anaheim Convention Center CA - Los Angeles 212,710
Ocean Center FL - Orlando 211,560
Raleigh Convention Center NC - Raleigh 211,060
The Virginia Beach Convention Center VA - Norfolk 210,470
Sacramento Convention Center Complex CA - Sacramento 202,690
Oakland Convention Center CA - San Francisco 202,261
Von Braun Center AL - Huntsville 201,804
Cobb Galleria Centre GA - Atlanta 190,182
Prime F Osborn III Convention Center FL - Jacksonville 187,480
American Bank Center Convention Center TX - Corpus Christi 182,758
Oncenter Complex NY - Syracuse 182,321
Columbus, Georgia Convention & Trade Center GA - Columbus 182,232
Hampton Roads Convention Center VA - Norfolk 176,488
Palm Springs Convention Center CA - Los Angeles 174,866
American Bank Center TX - Corpus Christi 170,316
Duluth Entertainment Convention Center MN - Duluth 169,343
Greater Tacoma Convention & Trade Center WA - Seattle 163,785
Rochester Riverside Convention Center NY - Rochester 162,949
Tulsa Convention Center OK - Tulsa 156,694
New Jersey Convention and Exposition Center NJ - Northern New Jersey 154,200
Pasadena Convention Center CA - Los Angeles 150,459
Monona Terrace Community and Convention Center WI - Madison 145,460
Chattanooga Convention Center TN - Chattanooga 143,846
Rhode Island Convention Center RI - Providence 143,789
Gwinnett Center GA - Atlanta 136,377
Statehouse Convention Center AR - Little Rock 136,228
Myrtle Beach Convention Center SC - Myrtle Beach 131,932
M.C. Benton Jr. Convention Center NC - Greensboro 131,751
La Crosse Center WI - La Crosse 128,206
AmericasMart Atlanta GA - Atlanta 127,380
Overland Park Convention Center MO - Kansas City 127,116
Lee Civic Center FL - Fort Myers 124,500
DCU Center MA - Boston 124,180
Charleston Area Convention Center SC - Charleston 117,730
Seattle Center WA - Seattle 114,323
Hopkins County Civic Center TX - Dallas / Ft. Worth 113,902
Amarillo Civic Center TX - Amarillo 113,577
Charleston Civic Center WV - Charleston 112,869
Buffalo Niagara Convention Center NY - Buffalo 112,705
Roland E. Powell Convention Center MD - Salisbury 111,346
Sioux Falls Convention Center SD - Sioux Falls 111,156
Peoria Civic Center IL - Peoria 110,000
The Macon Centreplex Coliseum and Convention Center GA - Macon 109,006
Wildwoods Convention Center NJ - Atlantic City 107,031
Gatlinburg Convention Center TN - Knoxville 106,504
Pasadena Convention Center & Municipal Fairgrounds TX - Houston 105,036
The Stonegate Conference Centre IL - Chicago 104,751
Los Angeles Convention Center CA - Los Angeles 103,405
Dayton Convention Center OH - Dayton 102,225
Bismarck Civic Center ND - Minot 101,882
Mayo Civic Center MN - Rochester 101,115
Dixie Center UT - Salt Lake City 100,879
Minneapolis Convention Center MN - Minneapolis / St. Paul 100,000
Crown Center NC - Charlotte 99,553
Asheville Civic Center SC - Greenville 97,208
Lansing Center MI - Lansing 97,118
Lancaster County Convention Center PA - Harrisburg 95,743
Lubbock Memorial Civic Center TX - Lubbock 95,338
Monroe Civic Center AR - Monroe 94,488
Fresno Convention Center CA - Fresno 93,334
Qwest Center Omaha NE - Omaha 93,303
The Lakeland Center FL - Tampa 92,740
St. Charles Convention Center MO - St. Louis 92,549
Rushmore Plaza Civic Center SD - Rapid City 91,535
Northern Kentucky Convention Center OH - Cincinnati 90,068
Seagate Convention Center OH - Toledo 88,671
McAllen Convention Center TX - Harlingen 87,206
Branson Convention Center MO - Springfield 87,170
Lexington Convention Center KY - Lexington 86,494
Cox Business Services Convention Center OK - Oklahoma City 85,023