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Thread: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

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  1. #1

    Default 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    Sorry if its a repost. I hadn't seen this anywhere else.

    Oklahoma City projects stall, look for momentum. via okcBIZ

    Pamela A. Grady
    5/26/2009 12:00:00 AM


    In the Oklahoma City metro area and its surrounding communities, many development projects have been planned, talked about or reported as forthcoming. Looking back, some projects took off and did well, while others never came to fruition, or simply fell off of people’s radar.

    OKCBiz takes a look at some of these commercial projects to see whether these deals are moving forward or dead in the water. Simply put, “Whatever happened to that?!?”

    Tuscana

    THE PLAN: Two years ago, local developer Larry Owsley of RCL Mortgage Corp. purchased 233 acres north of Quail Springs Mall for his Tuscana project, a Mediterranean-style, mixed-use development. He purchased the vacant land with plans to build Oklahoma City’s largest mixed-use destination project. Initially, the plan was to be completed within five to seven years.

    THE PROBLEM: “We’ve been pushed back a year or two,” Owsley says, blaming delays on economic circumstances and retailers struggling to find new finance options. “Everybody’s just in slow-motion or holding back until their own financing can get worked out. A lot of their major financing from Wall Street, major investment firms or the REITs have gone away.”

    THE PROSPECT: Nonetheless, Owsley says he’s not waiting any longer to begin working on the project’s infrastructure at its ceremonial entrance on May Avenue, where an 18-foot-tall, triple-layered, Tuscany-style fountain will be placed. He says roads are being paved on the Stillwater National Bank-financed project.

    “Two years ago, our market feasibility study indicated (Tuscana) would be $700 million to $800 million in bricks and mortar,” he says, but admits the cost may be much higher once all is said and done.

    Under the project’s planned unit development, the pedestrian-friendly Tuscana will provide more than 800,000 square feet of retail space, with an emphasis on family recreation.

    “Around the perimeters, we have 10 acres on 150th that will be upscale boutique retail,” he says. “On the May Avenue frontage, the area is set up for restaurants with water features and more retail. The concept is everything is driven to the center of the development where the hub of activity will be.”

    Additionally, more than 600,000 square feet of residential-size offices and larger corporate structure areas will be available. The project also will feature five to six different styles of residential living, including mid-rise, row homes, townhomes, condominiums and lofts.

    “The demographics here in Oklahoma City, in terms of education, number of people, and the income in certain areas of Oklahoma City, is very strong,” Owsley says. “And our development center is in the center of the bull’s eye.”


    Quail Springs Ranch

    THE PLAN: Local commercial real estate broker Bob Sullivan of NAI Sullivan Group planned for Quail Springs Ranch at Western Avenue and Memorial Road to be a 90-acre, 1.5 million-square-foot, mixed-used project, including The Shops at Highland Park and The Offices at Highland Park, built by Retail Endeavors Group.

    THE PROBLEM: Signs onsite indicate the project was to open in summer 2009, but the project has yet to break ground. Sullivan says it has been delayed due to the economy, but only for about 12 months.

    THE PROSPECT: “The project is still on track, but with the national slowdown, it’s been pushed back,” he says.

    Plans for the site include a 235,965-square-foot anchor, a 65,000-square-foot fitness center, 302,781 square feet of additional retail, 305,300 square feet of commercial offices, a 62,900-square-foot cinema, a 64,917-square-foot entertainment anchor, 23,225 square feet of freestanding restaurants, 243,100 square feet of residential and a 131,400-square-foot hotel. An IMAX theater by Dickinson Theaters is expected as a major tenant, as well as a Legoland theme park and boat rides.


    The Outlet Shoppes at Oklahoma City

    THE PLAN: In early 2008, Oklahoma City Council members signed a contract to approve $8 million in economic incentives for Horizon Group Properties and Cousins Properties to co-develop Oklahoma City’s first outlet center at Interstate 40 and Council Road, with the understanding that the developers would provide an initial $50 million investment. Depending on the success of the center, another 75,000 square feet could be added later.

    The team retained Timberlake Construction as general contractor for its $65 million, 350,000-square-foot retail center, to be called The Outlet Shoppes at Oklahoma City.

    THE PROBLEM: Construction was scheduled to begin in November 2008, then was delayed until this spring due to the economy.

    THE PROSPECT: Horizon Group Properties Senior Vice President Thomas Rumptz says his group remains cautiously optimistic that construction will begin on the project this summer, with a target completion date of July 2010.

    “We have some strong tenants in the marketplace that we’ve worked with and have had in the last 45 to 60 days,” Rumptz says. “So we hope to start construction by the latter part of summer and open by the latter part of 2010. This facility will be similar to our El Paso center (The Outlet Shoppes at El Paso). We built 380,000 square feet of retail in El Paso, and Oklahoma City’s will be 350,000 square feet, but still with 90 retailers on site.”
    Despite the current economy, Rumptz says he believes outlets will continue to remain strong in the retail industry.

    “If you look at the retail segments right now, the strongest retail segment is the outlet centers,” he says. “And it’s not always that way, so I don’t have the pleasure of saying that all of the time. Most of the retailers that we’re working with have stayed with the outlet project. It’s part of their growth plan, and their corporate success is outlet centers.”

  2. Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    this is good new to me! especially the tuscana project, but i was under the assumption that the imax would be here and not at the other project on the other side of the mall. not that thats important.

  3. #3

    Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    Quote Originally Posted by fromdust View Post
    this is good new to me! especially the tuscana project, but i was under the assumption that the imax would be here and not at the other project on the other side of the mall. not that thats important.
    Not exactly sure what you are saying. For the record, Tuscana IS the development just north of Quail Springs Mall.

  4. Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    Quote Originally Posted by warreng88 View Post
    Not exactly sure what you are saying. For the record, Tuscana IS the development just north of Quail Springs Mall.
    okay, i guess i didnt make it clear. i thought the imax was going to be part of the tuscana project, not the development on the other side of quail.

  5. Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    Quote Originally Posted by fromdust View Post
    okay, i guess i didnt make it clear. i thought the imax was going to be part of the tuscana project, not the development on the other side of quail.
    It's not even on the other side of Quail. It's over there by Western & Memorial.

  6. Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    I thought that about the Dickinson Theatre as well, fromdust. A mistake, possibly?
    Don't Edmond My Downtown

  7. #7

    Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    OMG at Tuscana
    Tuscana

    My jaw literally dropped.

  8. #8

    Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    Quote Originally Posted by andimthomas View Post
    OMG at Tuscana
    Tuscana

    My jaw literally dropped.
    I hope it still happens.

  9. #9

    Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    I see Oklahoma City supporting an outlet mall better than what's been proposed for Tuscana. Folks at Penn Square have told me that retailers like Nordstrom, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Marcus, Saks, etc. aren't interested in OKC because of the demographics. Just look at Macy's......our Macy's aren't real Macy's. They've cheapened them to fit in our market. I don't think a lot of upscale retailers want to tarnish their names like that. I still don't think building an outdoor shopping mall right next to an enclosed indoor shopping mall is a good idea. I'm not opposed to a mixed use development there.

  10. #10

    Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    I see Oklahoma City supporting an outlet mall better than what's been proposed for Tuscana. Folks at Penn Square have told me that retailers like Nordstrom, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Marcus, Saks, etc. aren't interested in OKC because of the demographics. Just look at Macy's......our Macy's aren't real Macy's. They've cheapened them to fit in our market. I don't think a lot of upscale retailers want to tarnish their names like that. I still don't think building an outdoor shopping mall right next to an enclosed indoor shopping mall is a good idea. I'm not opposed to a mixed use development there.
    Wow, love your enthusiasm for OKC. I disagree; I believe OKC is more than ready to handle high end retail. OKC should not be saturated with it like Dallas and promote major credit card debt, but we could defiantly handle a few. Tulsa has had a wannabe saks for years, and they are fine.

  11. #11

    Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    Quote Originally Posted by circuitboard View Post
    Wow, love your enthusiasm for OKC. I disagree; I believe OKC is more than ready to handle high end retail. OKC should not be saturated with it like Dallas and promote major credit card debt, but we could defiantly handle a few. Tulsa has had a wannabe saks for years, and they are fine.
    I agree with you, but what you believe, and what the retailers are actually saying are two different things. Reality is that the high end retailers ARE NOT considering OKC because of our demographics. In regards to Tulsa, if you look at demographics, they're actually better in Tulsa. That's not to say we don't have areas of concentrated wealth in OKC. But, from all of the demographic studies, Tulsa is stronger in this area. Also, Saks is getting dirt cheap rent in Utica Square.

  12. #12

    Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    Tulsa Demographics show 1% of population with salaries over 200K. OKC shows 0.6% of population with salaries over 200K.

    Of note, Dallas has 1.3% of its population with salaries over 200K. LA and NY have similar results.

  13. #13

    Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    Yeah it is unfortanate that our demographics reflect that. We are really spread out in the metro. Hopefully retailers will look closely.

  14. #14

    Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    Tulsa Demographics show 1% of population with salaries over 200K. OKC shows 0.6% of population with salaries over 200K.

    Of note, Dallas has 1.3% of its population with salaries over 200K. LA and NY have similar results.
    You need to look at metro numbers, not city numbers (which I presume is what you did.) The city numbers are pretty much worthless for this purpose.

    According to the US Census Bureau, 2.6% of households in OKC have income over 200K, compared to 2.5% of Tulsa households.

  15. #15

    Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    I see Oklahoma City supporting an outlet mall better than what's been proposed for Tuscana. Folks at Penn Square have told me that retailers like Nordstrom, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Marcus, Saks, etc. aren't interested in OKC because of the demographics. Just look at Macy's......our Macy's aren't real Macy's. They've cheapened them to fit in our market. I don't think a lot of upscale retailers want to tarnish their names like that. I still don't think building an outdoor shopping mall right next to an enclosed indoor shopping mall is a good idea. I'm not opposed to a mixed use development there.
    Case in point... Venture up to Tulsa and their Saks is not even remotely the same store as it would be in Dallas... Quite depressing...

  16. Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    I see Oklahoma City supporting an outlet mall better than what's been proposed for Tuscana. Folks at Penn Square have told me that retailers like Nordstrom, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Marcus, Saks, etc. aren't interested in OKC because of the demographics. Just look at Macy's......our Macy's aren't real Macy's. They've cheapened them to fit in our market. I don't think a lot of upscale retailers want to tarnish their names like that. I still don't think building an outdoor shopping mall right next to an enclosed indoor shopping mall is a good idea. I'm not opposed to a mixed use development there.
    I am beginning to have a hard time buying that upscale retailers aren't interested in OKC because of the demographics. Now, in the case of Nordstrom's, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Markus and Saks, I can totally understand. They only operate in the top 20 markets.

    However, for other upscale outlets like Whole Foods, I just don't buy their excuse.
    Continue the Renaissance!!!

  17. #17

    Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    Quote Originally Posted by okcpulse View Post
    I am beginning to have a hard time buying that upscale retailers aren't interested in OKC because of the demographics. Now, in the case of Nordstrom's, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Markus and Saks, I can totally understand. They only operate in the top 20 markets.

    However, for other upscale outlets like Whole Foods, I just don't buy their excuse.
    Nordstrom goes well beyond the top 20 markets, e.g., Anchorage, Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, Tampa Bay, Portland, Cincinnati, Sacramento, Orlando, San Antonio, Norfolk, Las Vegas, Columbus, Charlotte, Salt Lake City, Austin, Nashville (under development), Providence, Raleigh-Durham, West Palm-Boca, Richmond (smaller than OKC).

    In short, there are not all that many metros larger than OKC that do not already have a Nordstrom.

    While we're at it, Saks 5th Ave. has quite a few stores outside of top 20 markets as well. Tulsa, Birmingham, and New Orleans come to mind real quickly.

  18. #18

    Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    Quote Originally Posted by okcpulse View Post
    I am beginning to have a hard time buying that upscale retailers aren't interested in OKC because of the demographics. Now, in the case of Nordstrom's, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Markus and Saks, I can totally understand. They only operate in the top 20 markets.

    However, for other upscale outlets like Whole Foods, I just don't buy their excuse.
    With Whole Foods it's more the liquor issue, right?

  19. Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    With Whole Foods it's more the liquor issue, right?
    The liquor issue is a moot point now, especially since Whole Foods has locations in the following 3.2 beer states... Kansas, Minnesota, Colorado, Utah and one of course in Tulsa.

    Then they have a location in Little Rock, Arkansas, which based on my data, has demographics that just don't compare to Oklahoma City.
    Continue the Renaissance!!!

  20. #20

    Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    Quote Originally Posted by okcpulse View Post
    The liquor issue is a moot point now, especially since Whole Foods has locations in the following 3.2 beer states... Kansas, Minnesota, Colorado, Utah and one of course in Tulsa.

    Then they have a location in Little Rock, Arkansas, which based on my data, has demographics that just don't compare to Oklahoma City.
    In New York they've got side-by-side stores, one of which sells liquor and the other groceries. I'm getting really annoyed with us being passed over for other cities with worse or similar demographics. Omaha has an Anthropologie. It's not doing well financially, but they've got one. I thought the Chamber was supposed to have a branch that was aggressively pursuing new retail in OKC. Granted, many stores aren't expanding at all right now, but clearly someone had been expanding to Little Rock and Omaha.

  21. #21

    Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    great thats what developers and possible retailers need to read (negativity) that if high end retailers come to okc they will hav to cheapen themselves to fit our okc class lol...

  22. #22

    Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    Wow, most Macy's that used to be Foley's are not much different than most other Macy's around. We have a brand new one at the new "high-end lifestyle center" (outdoor mall) where I work, it seems no different than the one at Penn Square. This is a two year old Simon lifestyle center (The Domain) with Needless Markups, Tiffany and all the other name brand stores. There is also a planned Nordstrom's and a relocation of Sak's destined for the third phase that was put on hold late last year.

    ALL of the Macy's stores that I have been in pale in comparison to the original in NYC.

  23. Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedogok View Post
    ALL of the Macy's stores that I have been in pale in comparison to the original in NYC.
    Yea...it doesn't even feel like the same company.

  24. #24

    Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    tradin' on the presump, and hopin' the sheeple don't notice. Seems to be workin' by and large.

  25. Default Re: 5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

    im more exctied about the new outlet mall being built right up the street with stuff I can afford to buy then that stuff up in edmond with stuff I can afford to look at

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