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Thread: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

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warreng88 Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-28-2009, 02:48 PM
dalelakin Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-28-2009, 02:51 PM
warreng88 Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-28-2009, 02:55 PM
dalelakin Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-28-2009, 02:58 PM
warreng88 Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-28-2009, 03:12 PM
OKCMallen Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-28-2009, 04:14 PM
BPD Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-28-2009, 04:42 PM
OKCMallen Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-28-2009, 04:49 PM
warreng88 Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-28-2009, 04:45 PM
OKCMallen Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-28-2009, 04:48 PM
metro Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-28-2009, 03:07 PM
danielf1935 Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-28-2009, 05:14 PM
warreng88 Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-28-2009, 05:47 PM
kevinpate Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-28-2009, 06:48 PM
southernskye Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-28-2009, 07:03 PM
krisb Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-28-2009, 11:01 PM
onthestrip Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-28-2009, 11:12 PM
metro Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-29-2009, 09:11 AM
warreng88 Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 02-08-2009, 10:47 PM
bluedogok Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-28-2009, 11:13 PM
metro Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-29-2009, 09:13 AM
FritterGirl Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-29-2009, 09:38 AM
BPD Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-29-2009, 10:10 AM
Richard at Remax Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-29-2009, 10:11 AM
OKCisOK4me Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-29-2009, 03:59 PM
lasomeday Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-30-2009, 12:25 AM
okclee Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-29-2009, 10:24 AM
metro Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-29-2009, 10:43 AM
okclee Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-29-2009, 11:20 AM
metro Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-29-2009, 11:40 AM
Nermel Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 02-02-2009, 12:40 AM
okclee Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-29-2009, 12:10 PM
Thunder Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-30-2009, 02:32 AM
Guest Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-30-2009, 08:51 AM
jbrown84 Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-30-2009, 08:01 PM
lasomeday Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-31-2009, 09:06 AM
CuatrodeMayo Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-30-2009, 09:08 AM
bluedogok Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-30-2009, 09:33 AM
metro Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-30-2009, 09:19 AM
bluedogok Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-31-2009, 01:46 PM
jbrown84 Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 01-31-2009, 10:15 PM
Guest Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 02-01-2009, 08:12 AM
mcgrawsdad Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic... 02-01-2009, 08:32 PM
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  1. #1

    Default Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    So we all probably know what the speculative dreaming is for Core to Shore, (i.e. housing additions, office parks, retail towers, residential towers, etc.)

    My question is if we pass a MAPS III including some sort of mass transit (light rail, better bus lines, etc), a Central Park and the Convention Center, what would be next? Most everything else will have to be privately funded, so what do you think would be the first thing to be built?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    Casino...

  3. #3

    Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by dalelakin View Post
    Casino...

  4. #4

    Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    You asked for opinions and that is mine. I see that as a very strong potential, I hope it doesn't happen but I think people are fooling themselves if they think there is no chance of a casino making its way into that part of the city.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by dalelakin View Post
    You asked for opinions and that is mine. I see that as a very strong potential, I hope it doesn't happen but I think people are fooling themselves if they think there is no chance of a casino making its way into that part of the city.
    I was not slapping my head because of your answer, I was doing it as a "Crap if they do" kind of gesture. I just really hope one is not near that area. In 2005, the Shawnee tribe talked about opening one in BT and it wasn't very well received if I remember correctly.
    Last edited by warreng88; 01-28-2009 at 03:18 PM. Reason: adding tidbits

  6. Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by warreng88 View Post
    I was not slapping my head because of your answer, I was doing it as a "Crap if they do" kind of gesture. I just really hope one is not near that area. In 2005, the Shawnee tribe talked about opening one in BT and it wasn't very well received if I remember correctly.
    It wasn't at all...which I think is ridiculous. It's a huge draw and right now, tax dollars are being spent OUTSIDE OKC at Lucky Star and Riverwind. Remington is an OK draw, but is nothing compared to Riverwind.

    Why is the idea of a casino on the outskirts of Bricktown so awful anyway? People will a) come to OKC more, and b) spend more money in Bricktown. It could be a major cornerstone of the Bricktown entertainment district.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    Why is the idea of a casino on the outskirts of Bricktown so awful anyway? If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand the answer anyway

  8. Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by BPD View Post
    Why is the idea of a casino on the outskirts of Bricktown so awful anyway? If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand the answer anyway
    Oh, please enlighten us with your brilliant perspective. I'm thinking I, and the rest of the board, can handle it, n00b.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by OKCMallen View Post
    It wasn't at all...which I think is ridiculous. It's a huge draw and right now, tax dollars are being spent OUTSIDE OKC at Lucky Star and Riverwind. Remington is an OK draw, but is nothing compared to Riverwind.

    Why is the idea of a casino on the outskirts of Bricktown so awful anyway? People will a) come to OKC more, and b) spend more money in Bricktown. It could be a major cornerstone of the Bricktown entertainment district.
    I understand your side of it, I am also looking at the design side of the building and how it reflects on the district.

    "Putting the land in trust would exempt it from normal zoning and architectural restrictions and also would exempt the tribe from bringing a proposal before the Bricktown Urban Design Committee."

    This is the problem I have with it. If they can get the land, they move it into a trust and they can build whatever they want to. I don't have anything against any of the tribes or what they are doing, I just don't like that they do not have to answer to anyone.

  10. Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by warreng88 View Post
    I understand your side of it, I am also looking at the design side of the building and how it reflects on the district.

    "Putting the land in trust would exempt it from normal zoning and architectural restrictions and also would exempt the tribe from bringing a proposal before the Bricktown Urban Design Committee."

    This is the problem I have with it. If they can get the land, they move it into a trust and they can build whatever they want to. I don't have anything against any of the tribes or what they are doing, I just don't like that they do not have to answer to anyone.
    I bet they are willing to make concessions in that regard in order to be able to build.

  11. Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by BPD View Post
    Why is the idea of a casino on the outskirts of Bricktown so awful anyway? If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand the answer anyway
    Ain't that the truth...

    Quote Originally Posted by warreng88 View Post
    I understand your side of it, I am also looking at the design side of the building and how it reflects on the district.

    "Putting the land in trust would exempt it from normal zoning and architectural restrictions and also would exempt the tribe from bringing a proposal before the Bricktown Urban Design Committee."

    This is the problem I have with it. If they can get the land, they move it into a trust and they can build whatever they want to. I don't have anything against any of the tribes or what they are doing, I just don't like that they do not have to answer to anyone.
    Exactly. One needs only to make a visit to Winstar on near the OK/Texas border to see what an Oklahoma tribe is capable of. An indian casino in Bricktown would make Bass Pro look like an upscale urban destination.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    Don't be surprised if you see "canal extension" in the near future, not saying it's the best use of the money, but don't be surprised..... Outdoor amphitheatre would also be a good possibility.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    I think extension of the canal makes sense, personally, I would like to see them add a canal leading from the Oklahoma River to the State Fairgrounds.

    I also think we need a dedicated Maps (or something similiar) for the OKC Parks Department.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    The other problem that I forgot to mention is that casinos do not pay taxes, therefore what they make would not help improve the area. In fact, I think it would take business away from what we consider the bricktown area because most likely they would have restaurants and that sort of thing.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    if nothing else, Foxwoods is a fair piece prettier than most local hotel construction

  16. #16

    Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    Ummm.... So the casinos here don't have to be on tribal land?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    Have any of you looked at the results from the MAPS 3 survey? By far, the most requested city upgrade from citizens was mass transit (668 votes). The new convention center received a whopping 40 votes from citizens, which is far down on the list. Is there something we don't know about the importance of convention centers? Or is the city council running their own agenda?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by krisb View Post
    Have any of you looked at the results from the MAPS 3 survey? By far, the most requested city upgrade from citizens was mass transit (668 votes). The new convention center received a whopping 40 votes from citizens, which is far down on the list. Is there something we don't know about the importance of convention centers? Or is the city council running their own agenda?
    I think the biggest reason is that a new convention center can actually bring in money whereas mass transit is usually a drain on budgets. And a convention center costs much less than an extensive public transit system. I think they should be able to do both though.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by krisb View Post
    Have any of you looked at the results from the MAPS 3 survey? By far, the most requested city upgrade from citizens was mass transit (668 votes). The new convention center received a whopping 40 votes from citizens, which is far down on the list. Is there something we don't know about the importance of convention centers? Or is the city council running their own agenda?
    BOTH. I would almost guarantee you will see some form of mass transit and convention center in MAPS3. Won't be surprised to see the canal extension in there as well, or if not a seperate mechanism for it.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    Thought I would post this on an subject heading at least along the same idea:

    Mapping Core to Shore

    The Journal Record February 9, 2009
    CLICK HERE to view a video presentation of Core to Shore.

    Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett (Photo by Maike Sabolich)

    OKLAHOMA CITY – When MAPS-3 finally shows up on voting ballots – before the end of the year, Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett said – the temporary sales tax issue will likely represent a wide range of projects worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

    The question of exactly what projects city residents will be asked to support is yet to be decided, but it appears at least two Core to Shore elements will be included, he said. And because of their place in the city, they may even seem to be the heart of the initiative.

    A massive redevelopment just south of downtown Oklahoma City is already under way as a two-mile stretch of the Interstate 40 crosstown is being constructed closer to the Oklahoma River. Once traffic is diverted to the new I-40, the old Interstate bridge will be razed and that thoroughfare converted to a main boulevard. City leaders describe all the projects planned to revitalize the zone as Core to Shore.

    “We know Interstate 40 is going to be relocated,” Cornett said. “It’s more evident every day. … And you can see that 2012, when they expect to finish, is going to be here before you know it.”

    “We know we’re going to be able to fund the boulevard using largely state money and then add some improvements of our own to make that the most special street this state has ever seen,” he said. “It will be the premier address in Oklahoma.”

    “When you look at Oklahoma City with fresh eyes … and look around the country at other cities, what does Oklahoma City still lack to ascend to a new level?” said Cornett. “I think there are two elements: There’s public transit, that we do not fund and do not serve our citizens adequately. And then there’s a large gathering space downtown. We really need a Central Park that we can be proud of.”

    The money needed to fund such a park, a new convention center nearby, and a fixed railway transportation system brings C2S to the intersection with MAPS-3.

    The original MAPS, or Metropolitan Area Projects, was strongly approved by public vote in 1993 when residents established a 1-cent, five-year sales tax to fund nine projects, including the construction of the Bricktown Ballpark, renovation of the Cox Business Services Convention Center, and development of the Oklahoma River. A second package identified as Metropolitan Area Public Schools, or MAPS for Kids, kept that penny in play when voters easily passed two initiatives to fund local school districts.

    Seventy percent of revenue generated from that sales tax went to Oklahoma City Public Schools for the construction of new buildings, technology and other improvements.

    Together, the two MAPS initiatives directly yielded more than $800 million in taxes. So the MAPS identification has been considered by many city leaders as an invaluable brand name.

    But action on a MAPS-3 plan, which many expected last year, was pre-empted when voters passed a $120 million temporary sales tax for remodeling the Ford Center downtown to improve chances of luring an NBA team to the city. City leaders had originally intended to include arena upgrades in a larger package of developments, perhaps even MAPS-3.

    Because of the short deadline for the NBA board’s decision, the arena question was pushed ahead of schedule.

    Cornett said it’s time to invest in the MAPS franchise again, even in a tough economy. When he was asked about the ramifications of failure, he said: “OK, so the economy’s not what we wish it was. Does that mean we want to stop creating jobs, which is what MAPS-3 is ultimately about? Does that mean we want to stop creating a city where people want to live? … If you don’t continue to invest in your city, then you’re going to stop the momentum that’s gotten us this far.”

    As he recently told city leaders in the annual State of the City address, Cornett said the city needs a new convention center soon. If the public were to approve funding immediately to get started on a building to hold major entertainment and business events, it would take almost a decade for it to be finished. And by then the Cox Convention Center would be about 50 years old.

    Although it’s generally accepted that convention centers are major economic engines that help attract tourism dollars – which means they end up helping to pay for their own construction – Cornett is still concerned that the public be able to easily identify some other benefit in Core to Shore projects to increase the likelihood of passage of MAPS-3. A massive public park would play that part, he said, as would a citywide public transit rail system of some sort, both of which were identified in a 2006 public survey as top interests of city residents.

    “It’s easy to see the reasons that a park’s a great idea, and it’s easy to see that public transit serves everyone,” he said. “It takes a little more vision to see a 21st century convention center would help the city because it helps the economy.”

    Those three components – convention center, park and mass transit – are a good place to start for MAPS-3, he said. After that, though, Cornett was reluctant to predict the direction of the package.

    The sales tax question would have to be set for public vote by Cornett and the rest of the City Council, and for it to seamlessly take up when the last penny tax stops on April 1, 2010, city government must formally set an agenda for public discussions before the summer. The eight members of the council have repeatedly said they support a MAPS-3 package of some sort, but have not yet committed to what projects they would like to see included.
    Councilwoman Meg Salyer said it’s likely that such a wide range of issues will be addressed in the final package that voters will likely find a majority they approve of and overlapping interests will carry the rest.

    “That was certainly the case with MAPS,” she said. “There were elements that appealed to constituents all around the community.

    “MAPS-3 certainly isn’t a done deal. We still need to have a lot of discussion with the citizenry,” she said. “As we begin to move forward, we’ll start to see some of the elements people are most interested in, based on timing and what we think the budget will likely be.”

    Cornett said he’s always aware of the risk of city residents dividing themselves into regional sectors without appreciating the larger picture.
    “Our citizens realize how important downtown is to the continuity of the city,” he said. “The quality of life, even in the other municipalities and the suburbs is affected by the vibrancy of downtown. And you’ve got to buy into that; you’ve got to realize that the excitement that the Ford Center and the canal and the ballpark all bring to Oklahoma City, brings a vibrancy 10 or 15 miles out away from the city’s core.”

    Salyer, who represents one of the inner city wards, agreed with Cornett that Core to Shore projects will win support across Oklahoma City’s 620 square miles.

    “As a former New Yorker, the value of Central Park to the entire five boroughs of central New York is unquantifiable,” she said. “There are great parks in other parts of the city, but Central Park is such an important gathering place for everybody in the community. It’s iconic. I think Oklahoma City deserves something like that of its own.”

    If you go to the article on the Journal Record, there are two more articles about it.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    The convention center is to attract larger conventions to get out of towners to come to OKC. The city and convention planners I am sure would consider that more important because it gets tourist dollars and larger conventions have typically more people that spend more money.

    To locals, transit issues will always be more important.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    Not to mention that allowing one casino in Bricktown/Downtown/River area would set PRECIDENT and then others would want to cash in and build. We don't want to turn our downtown into Biloxi, MS.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by metro View Post
    Not to mention that allowing one casino in Bricktown/Downtown/River area would set PRECIDENT and then others would want to cash in and build. We don't want to turn our downtown into Biloxi, MS.
    I can see the bumper stickers now: Don't Biloxi my Bricktown!

  24. #24

    Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    I can see the bumper stickers now: Don't Biloxi my Bricktown!

    Where and when can I get one of those?

  25. Default Re: Core to Shore Hypothetic Question...

    I wouldn't mind having one down there. I'm sure some people have been to the Harrah's in DT new Orleans. I think its a perfect "other option" for out of towners to do. My friend is a dealer at Riverwind and said that a couple players from the Jazz came down there and played poker for hours the last time they were here. I understand the negatives of casinos, especially in a urban setting, but if you build it right and surround it with the right thing, it could be successful

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