Dana new member

[Dana]

Ok here goes lets see if I can do this. I found this site from a friend who thought this site could maybe help me. I am a grandmother who's only grandchild has been kidnapped and I am desperate for help. He has been taken by DHS for the Adoption Incentive Bonus program. He was not neglected, abused or anything else but loved. They are mad at me because they tried to take him twice before and I knew they were breaking the law so they didn't get him. So they waited for me to go to work and then knocked on my door when my daughter answered they came in chased her through the house and ripped him right out of her arms. Since then they have lied to the judge(Larry D. Shaw) they doctored a drug test which I can prove. Now they want her to go to drug counseling for a drug problem they fabricated all this to keep us from Evan(my grandson). I never thought they could come in your house and just take children and put them up for Adoption just cause they want to I now know that is not true. DHS can do whatever they want and nobody will stop them because they are all scared. I am not scared I just don't have the law degree it will take to stop them. I did manage to fine one person in this town who wasn't scared and she agreed to put a piece of my story on T.V. if you follow this link you can see it.
YouTube - Oklahoma DHS Corruption

[Toadrax]

I am not a lawyer or anything, but I have a little experience down there.

They can't adopt out the child without terminating the rights of the parents and they can't do that without a jury trial.

My advice is to not try to win the short term battles cause you can't, they have too much power. Play for the long haul and get an attorney who understands the process and put your family in a situation where they can't terminate the rights.

You may have to deal with them for over a thosand days and spend thousands of dollars like we have, but eventually they have to answer to the law. However, they can pull some really nasty tricks on you in the meantime that you need to watch out for.

[Toadrax]

Oh ya, and you should remind yourself that you are not dealing with DHS. There is no panel of people that are discussing your case. There is no oversight or something that will double check to make sure things are going well. The juvenile oversight commite will only make sure that specific policies were followed, they will not and can not determine if the right decision was made.

You are dealing with one person, the case worker. You won't get a second one unless that one quits. No one else will ever listen to anything you say until the termination hearing.

Good luck.

I tell you that because you need to know that there is nothing wrong with the "system" because there is no "system" to have a problem. You are dealing with an individual who has a lot of power.

[jacodenn]

Dana faces the same situation that many in Oklahoma County face...no money means no legal representation. Without adequate legal representation, essentially you are left without any means to enforce your rights.

What can she do?

Dennis
Oklahoma City

[angel27]

Here is some advise from a retired DHS caseworker (who is angry with current DHS procedures) that I recently received in a case I am trying to help with.

I would suggest you include those drug tests in a letter to the judge supporting your daughter and tell the judge of this incident. Any letters to the judge needs to be notarized with 2 witness' sigs and submitted to the court clerk a week or so before the next court date. I have found out this is the best way to have the judge hear your side. I didn't know just anyone could do this until recently.

Its my understanding 2 things happen up front: the first is the referree hearing where a temporary judge makes the judgement that CPS had grounds to take your child. I've only known once when a hired lawyer was able to go in & get the judge to rule the "kidnapping" didn't have grounds. I know of one other case where the caseworker supervisor didn't want a particular mother to lose her baby (3 other children in custody) so she circumvented the referee hearing and by talking to the DA with her support, they allowed the mother to keep her baby with her while declaring her to still be in DHS custody. But normally right up front a judgement has been made that CPS had grounds to remove the child - and they've normally never let you or a witness say a word.

The next thing they get you to do at your first court appearance, I believe, is to stipulate to the charges. This means you (the mother) admits to being guilty to the charges. They don't say that and I've watched them brush it off like its nothing, "just sign here." But thats whats happened. So if your daughter has "stipulated" then you can forget saying it was unjust because she's said she's guilty. I understand if you don't stipulate you get a "bench trial." I don't know what that is or what to expect from that. It sounded like a threat.

In return for stipulating, hopefully the judge will order the caseworker to give you a case plan, a plan of action to regain custody of your own child and assign you an atty that normally doesn't care and doesn't want you to take up much of their time.

If you are poor it can be very difficult to make it to classes when you don't have a car. I know a truckdriver who normally makes good money but he can't do that now because he wouldn't make the classes. So now he works at Walmart and brings in about $200./wk or 2wks - I don't remember - and his bills and rent that he has to have before kids can return are more than he brings in. But he can't go to work because he needs to be there for the classes. And another mother who was terminated when she got sick and didn't make it to her court date, but
DHS says they don't want to hear excuses or that its anybody elses fault.

The retired caseworker's advice is to do everything that is on the case plan as soon as possible. Include letters from supportive people to the judge before every court appearance, notorized with 2 sig. Sponsors. relatives. employers. Anyone that can serve witness. Ask for copies of the court records that are distributed to all the players at every court appearance, so you know what is being said. Make sure that the judge is getting true information.

It seems, at those hearings, that everyone is against the mother. There is an atty for the child, for the father, the DA, DHS, sometimes CASA or Guaridan ad litems, and most everyone is generally against the parents. You really have to work hard to overcome this. If you are poor, it can be almost impossible.

The solution the case worker proposes is that it should be a felony for anyone to lie in a juvenile case, especially the DHS caseworker. She thinks that no parents rights should ever be terminated if no harm ever came to that child. But it happens every day. If contempt of court is a crime, I think they should probably just come lock me up.

If there ever is a groundswell of people that want to change this scenario and want to preserve the dignity of motherhood and family, count me in. Poverty should not be a crime. children shouldl not be removed from their parents when they have come to no harm. The punishment should fit the crime and this is way out of line. Its almost like a death sentence for the parent when they take these kids away, and its none too good for the kid. I've seen plenty of kids from DHS custody repeat this cycle and lose their kids to the system that formed them. Can't you sue DHS for what happened to your son? But who would take it on.

[Toadrax]

Its my understanding 2 things happen up front: the first is the referree hearing where a temporary judge makes the judgement that CPS had grounds to take your child ... But normally right up front a judgement has been made that CPS had grounds to remove the child - and they've normally never let you or a witness say a word.

It isn't a temporary judge, it is just a referee. They call it a "show cause" hearing. The parents do not even have to be notified about the show cause hearing and have no rights to testify, speak, or even attend. They merely just show that they had cause, and by show.. they just have to state a reason. They don't have to show any evidence or even prove a point, it isn't before a judge anyway.

The next thing they get you to do at your first court appearance, I believe, is to stipulate to the charges. This means you (the mother) admits to being guilty to the charges. They don't say that and I've watched them brush it off like its nothing, "just sign here." But thats whats happened. So if your daughter has "stipulated" then you can forget saying it was unjust because she's said she's guilty. I understand if you don't stipulate you get a "bench trial." I don't know what that is or what to expect from that. It sounded like a threat.

Well, first it depends on what we are talking about. If DHS is trying to terminate your rights, you don't get a bench trial.. you get a jury trial. You should not admit to anything, talk to anyone, or do anything but speak to a lawyer in that instance.

If they are not terminating rights, than they are going to try and make the child a ward of the state by trying to get the child adjudicated deprived. You get a bench trial, and the point of that trial is simple. It is not to determine if you did anything wrong, it is to determine if the allegation against you is supported by evidence.

The sick irony is that it is important to disprove something that can not be proved. If they have a weak case against you, you won't be able to prove that you are innocent. If they have any evidence against you at all, they will win this bench trial. The theory(which is different than reality) is because they are not trying to punish you, only help provide services to the family of the child and fix whatever was wrong. Your chance of winning at a bench trial is next to nothing, especially with a judge like Shaw who is terrified to make any waves and go against DHS.

Well, there is a difference between admitting guilt and stipulating to the evidence. There might be times where it is best to admit that the evidence exists, but never admit to doing anything wrong.

Regardless of the outcome.. you will either stipulate or lose your bench trial and after that is over the court will order you to take a "strengths and needs" analysis. You sit down and tell DHS about your life, they judge you and write mean things up in a report, and they assign you an "ISP" (Individualized Service Plan)

The ISP will state why the child was found deprived and what needs to be corrected. It will included sections like different risk factors and what the parent needs to do to address them. Perfect example will be like...

Risk Factor: Child Well Being - Developmental
To Do: Will enroll with a DHS and court-approved parenting program. Will participate fully in the recommended courses and activies. Will successfully complete the recommended courses and activities with full attendance. Will follow all recommendations of the parenting instructors. Will be able to display learned parenting techniques during parent/child visitation and discuss these parenting skills with DHS. Will provide the case worker and the court with a copy of all certificates and completion.

You'll see that on every single ISP, but the other ones will depend on the details of the case. Once you complete everything on your ISP, the judge will close your case and everyone can go home. The catch is that they can modify your ISP at any time. If you get mad at any point, they can have anger management added for example. They can order you to do things that are impossible or even unconstitutional.

If you fail to complete your ISP in a certain amount of time, they will move to terminate your rights. That will be a jury trial and at that trial the original allegation will not be up for discussion. The two things they have to show the jury is that you failed to correct the condition that caused your child to be deprived(you didn't complete the ISP) and that there is no bond between you and your child.

Don't be too excited about that, the only person that will testify about the bond between you and your child is the caseworker. If the jury sees is their way, you never get to see your child again.

It seems, at those hearings, that everyone is against the mother. There is an atty for the child, for the father, the DA, DHS, sometimes CASA or Guaridan ad litems, and most everyone is generally against the parents. You really have to work hard to overcome this. If you are poor, it can be almost impossible.

Haha, even when you are rich it is impossible. They can and will say anything too! They pretty much just go off of what the caseworker tells them and parrot it like fools. None of them actually look into anything themselves. Not one of those people above have contacted my brother at any time to discuss his case to talk to him about any of the issues.

The solution the case worker proposes is that it should be a felony for anyone to lie in a juvenile case, especially the DHS caseworker. She thinks that no parents rights should ever be terminated if no harm ever came to that child. But it happens every day. If contempt of court is a crime, I think they should probably just come lock me up.

You hit the nail on the head. The biggest complaint I hear about caseworkers is that they lie. They are not officers of the court and they are not under oath like a witness so it isn't illegal or wrong for them to lie. They legally can say whatever they want and they know it.

Some of the things they lie about they have no reason to lie about, it is really sick. This may seem like a small deal, but it is cut and dry and a perfect example. I remember when our caseworker told the court that the father purchased the child a video game with the word "damn" in it, but if go online and look at the script for the game the word simply isn't in the game. Why would they make something like that up? Cause they can.

Many of them are of the philosophy that the ends justify the means, so if they think you are evil they are justified in lying.

Stop and think about why someone would want to be a caseworker in the first place. You have a lot of people who were horribly abused as children who are going out to right the wrongs in the world. Due to the fact that they never received the psychological treatment that they needed they are unable to correctly perceive reality and their bias just comes through and hurts the child.

If there ever is a groundswell of people that want to change this scenario and want to preserve the dignity of motherhood and family, count me in. Poverty should not be a crime. children shouldl not be removed from their parents when they have come to no harm. The punishment should fit the crime and this is way out of line. Its almost like a death sentence for the parent when they take these kids away, and its none too good for the kid. I've seen plenty of kids from DHS custody repeat this cycle and lose their kids to the system that formed them. Can't you sue DHS for what happened to your son? But who would take it on.

It isn't easy to sue DHS, but it is happening.

There will never be a groundswell though. All of the information people need to make informed decisions about DHS is confidential. We have no way to know if Dana is accurately describing what her situation really is, many people in the system are so confused about what is going on that they make really bad decisions. If I could look at her case file I could probably give her a good idea of where she is at, but it is illegal for me to do so.

Objective third parties can not point out errors in the systems or abusive caseworkers, because everything is confidential.

[traxx]

Why were they trying to take your grandson in the first place? You say that he wasn't abused or anything but they tried twice before to take him. What is the reason that they had targeted you to take this child?

[Midtowner]

Dana, have you tried to procure legal services from Legal Aid?

Legal Aid Services of Oklahoma, Inc.

Best of luck.

[Dana]

yes tried legal aide nobody will touch DHS

[Dana]

The first time they said it was because she fell asleep with him on her chest they call it co-sleeping and said it is against the law since then they have made up 7 more reasons and even doctored a drug test to try and say she is on drugs. I had another independant test run at S.O.S. and she was negative for everything an 1 1/2 hours after they did theirs.

[Dana]

The bench trial is set for Sept. 30, 2008

[GWB]

The bench trial is set for Sept. 30, 2008

Dana, I'm so sorry about what you and your family has gone through. I've been thinking about what I would do in a situation like yours. Here's some thoughts that come to mind. First of all, if you cannot afford an attorney you might consider getting on the phone and call some prominent attorneys in OKC to see if any of them would be willing to take your case pro bono. You absolutely need an attorney, you simply cannot fight this on your own.

In addition to getting yourself a good attorney, you might also consider contacting these three people at the Fox News network in NYC.

Greta Van Susteran at Ontherecord@foxnews.com

Megan Kelly at americasnewsroom@foxnews.com

Kimberly Guilfoyle Lineup@foxnews.com

All of these women are attorneys and they have their own program on Fox News. These women are all very sharp attorneys and very possibly one of them might take an interest in your story. If you decide to contact them, be sure to include the link to the local Fox news report and give them a very brief summary of your story. Include your phone number, email address, mailing address, fax, etc. There is a chance one of them will contact you and possibly air your story. If your story gets aired on Fox News, there might be an attorney who hears of this and offers to take your case pro bono. I know it's a long shot, but what do you have to lose?

I am no expert at this, I'm just sharing what I would do if I were in your shoes. Perhaps others on this forum will weigh in and share their ideas as well. I hope this helps. You are in my prayers.

[angel27]

BTW Toadrax, thanks for clarifying so much of my post. Your response was really helpful to me. I don't know that it makes much difference but thanks.

[Luke]

I just read all this and I am absolutely sickened.

It's absolutely ridiculous that huge life shattering decisions are based on one little case worker's opinion. Absolutely asinine.

So, what part does the Oklahoma Commission on Children and Youth play in all this? The news piece mentioned it at the end. Do they provide some sort of oversight? I mean where is the accountability?

I am going to call and ask about procedures because this is asinine.

[Toadrax]

So, what part does the Oklahoma Commission on Children and Youth play in all this? The news piece mentioned it at the end. Do they provide some sort of oversight? I mean where is the accountability?

I said it in my post above, but it was kind of long so it might not have stood out. They merely make sure that DHS policy is followed. OKDHS.org - Policy Online If DHS policy is not being followed, than they can complain and point it out.

However, DHS caseworkers have incredibly leeway in making decisions.. There is not even a policy that says that they have to tell the truth. In many places it is all about the "best interest of the child", but there are no policies that determine what the "best interest of the child" means. It is kind of like saying "the will of God".

Perfect example. They were able to help us one time when we have video evidence that my niece was being physically beaten by the people that they had placed her with. It was against policy for the caseworker to ignore our evidence and not even look at it, so they were able to make her watch the tape. Once she watched the tape it was within her policy to decide that our claim was bogus and that is what the caseworker did.

I am going to call and ask about procedures because this is asinine.

Well, the actual theory behind it all is sound. The reality of what actually happens is kind of sick. Parents that did nothing wrong are all going to say that the caseworker lied, but parents who did a lot wrong are all going to say that the caseworker lied. No one is charged with keeping them honest, and since all of the records are confidential no one volunteer to keep them honest.

We have no way to tell if Dana is telling the truth or not.. She might be or she might not. Since you can not even go to court with her and see what goes on(they won't let you in unless you are a party to the case), you have to take her word for it.

People have a hard time just taking peoples word for outrageous claims, so not many people fully believe you when you complain. You'll never know for certain until it happens to you, and it can happen to anyone. No child has grown up without something happening that DHS could get involved in, and if you end up with a bad caseworker it could turn into another tragedy.

[Karried]

Send that video to every newspaper and news agency in the state and country.

I'm curious though, other than the co-sleeping, what reason did they give to take the baby from your daughter? Did I miss it?

[Luke]

The faked drug test seems like the other reason.

Dana, what makes you think that they targeted your grandson for the Adoption Incentive Bonus program?

Why did they try to take him twice before?

Just curious. I really want to help here.

[Dana]

They didn't take him twice they tried but I was here and knew they were breaking the law so they waited for me to go to work and then came back. Then they took advantage of my daughter not knowing anything about the law and of course once they got him they weren't about to give him back.

[Karried]

Typically, even when the biological parent screws up DHS usually gives the nearest and next relative temporary custody while the parents get their act together.

It's usually a last resort to adopt a child out and they usually put a child with a relative before they put a child into foster care from my experience.

[Dana]

Yes I informed them of that policy but they still won't give him to me either. They put him in shelter and he is now in foster care waiting for them to find a way to terminate. I went to the DA and was able to stop their first attempt to terminate. I also don't think that a person with a criminal history should not be allowed to work in a position that makes decisions concerning children. I figure if you can't handle your own affairs you should not be allowed to make decisions concerning other peoples affairs. I have a clean record I can prove this because I am a volunteer for Red Cross and it is mandatory to have a background check run to volunteer for them. However the caseworker has a currant warrant for her arrest unfortunately not in Oklahoma county if it was I would have already had her arrested. She also has had felony charges brought against her and 2 misdemeanors all for writing hot checks. I have never written a hot check in my life. She has been sued twice because she owed people money and wouldn't pay so they sued her and were able to get her wages garnished. I normally am not the kind of person who judges anybody but I figure if you are going to dig around in my life and make up lies I have the right to dig in your life and see what I can find. Her record is easily accessible on OSCN which is where I found most of the charges that I found. I on the other hand have never been arrested, no criminal record, and I own my house free and clear which proves I can handle my finances. This whole thing just doesn't make any since to me other than the fact of the money they are going to make off of him so far I have not been able to find any other reason why they are doing this. I know the worker also doesn't like white people but that is not reason enough to steal a child so I am still at a loss as to why my grandson.

[Luke]

Why do you think DHS target you to begin with?

[Luke]

How did DHS find him in the first place? Did somebody call them? Did they just randomly stop by?

[Dana]

She was at the Home for Unwed Mothers after the father of her baby came to my house and tried to kill her. I moved her there for protection because I couldn't stay home with her because I have to work. The home is the one who made the first call they turn her in for falling asleep while burping him after a feeding. I know it sounds insane but that is truely what happened.

[PennyQuilts]

Oh good lord. Why would ANYONE believe this ridiculous story? She knew they were breaking the law so hid the child, twice? Oh, come on. Don't be gullible.

[andy157]

Oh good lord. Why would ANYONE believe this ridiculous story? She knew they were breaking the law so hid the child, twice? Oh, come on. Don't be gullible.

I guess it's because us real Okies are just not as smart as you East Coast Okies. You state that "she knew they were breaking the law so hid the child, twice?" I feel like such a fool. I don't want to be gullible. Questions. Who is she? Who are they? Who is breaking the law? Which law did they break? Who hid the child? Was it the tears that gave her away? Do you have actual knowledge this is all nothing but a lie? Do you have the facts that prove this ridiculous story to be untrue? Please share with us your insight and your vast wisdom.