Another reason we badly need the new section of I-40.

[AFCM]

Imagine you're driving down the current crosstown, potholes and all, when suddenly your tires blow out after hitting one of the ruts in the middle of the decaying interstate. Where are you going to replace the old tire with a spare? For most of the crosstown, which is to be swapped thankfully, there are no shoulders on which to do simple and safe immediate repairs to get your vehicle back on the road and out of danger. You're out in the middle of a driving lane, with vehicles approaching at 65+ mph.

Even if you decide to just call a wrecker, your vehicle is still a sitting duck. Imagine the people driving 65+ mph, with every lane being relatively occupied. The first vehicle coming may not be able to brake in time. Okay, suppose the first driver manages to swerve just in time to avoid a catastrophic collision. What about the vehicle behind the first, which is likely following too closely and has no idea of what's ahead of the first? Even if one vehicle doesn't slam into your vehicle, another eventually will.

This is just another perspective on why we badly need the new I-40 crosstown, for those of you who want to stall the completion as much as possible. It's not just for the new developments; it's for our safety.





The current I-40 layout is ripe for disaster and we see it nearly everyday. By the way, if your vehicle does break down for some reason, here are some things you can do to ensure your safety:

If you can continue driving, like driving on a flattened tire or rim, do so until you're in a location where you can safely perform repairs. It's much better to tear up your vehicle than parking in the middle of a busy lane, which will ultimately lead to its destruction anyway.

If your vehicle is in the middle of a lane with vehicles approaching, try to get out of the vehicle safely and head towards the sidewalk/walkway or whatever that little area on the side is. Before doing this, you should safely grab any flares you might have, so you can give as much warning as possible to other drivers on the road. Once you're out and away from the sitting duck, move away from the vehicle going in the direction of the vehicles rear (towards oncoming traffic). If you move towards the front (with oncoming traffic) you can still be struck by a vehicle that could slam into yours. If you don't have any flares, you can walk in the direction of the approaching traffic and signal to the drivers so as to give warning.
Note: You don't have to get out, but remember it as an option. Different people will have different circumstances. Use common sense and sound judgement.

Call OHP immediately and give them your information. The patrolman should come and at least light up the area well enough to warn oncoming drivers of the immediate danger.

Call a wrecker. Don't attempt to make repairs in the middle of the lane.

If you've had a wreck, use common sense based on where you are. If I had a wreck and was sitting in the middle of the lane, I would most likely move away from the vehicle as quickly as possible. At least I stand a fighting chance if I'm mobile and not in the lane.

Stay safe.

[Tom Elmore]

So you're trusting the people who designed the mess you've aptly described above to "fix you up with a new, improved Crosstown?" Even though they've already silently conspired to sink bridge piers involved in the "New Crosstown" into an un-remediated lake of corrosive acid sludge?

Do you figure the "safety features" of the "old Crosstown" that you've described were somehow "better than today" when the structure was first opened back in 1966?

You're trusting "the fathers of fracture critical roadway bridge design" to replace the current inexplicable structure with "something better" -- only, of course, they'll "surely do it right this time?"

...and, by the way, they'll "get right on it" if we'll all "just avert our eyes from the unnecessary destruction of the center of our state's railway network?"

"Small price to pay," huh? That way we'll likely never have any alternative to their brilliantly conceived highways?

...and isn't the Emperor looking "particularly stunning" today in his "new clothes?"

TOM ELMORE

[AFCM]

So you're trusting the people who designed the mess you've aptly described above to "fix you up with a new, improved Crosstown?" Even though they've already silently conspired to sink bridge piers involved in the "New Crosstown" into an un-remediated lake of corrosive acid sludge?

Do you figure the "safety features" of the "old Crosstown" that you've described were somehow "better than today" when the structure was first opened back in 1966?

You're trusting "the fathers of fracture critical roadway bridge design" to replace the current inexplicable structure with "something better" -- only, of course, they'll "surely do it right this time?"

...and, by the way, they'll "get right on it" if we'll all "just avert our eyes from the unnecessary destruction of the center of our state's railway network?"

"Small price to pay," huh? That way we'll likely never have any alternative to their brilliantly conceived highways?

...and isn't the Emperor looking "particularly stunning" today in his "new clothes?"

TOM ELMORE

Nice straw man argument. About 90% of what you wrote was a complete misrepresentation of what I was expressing. I'm not arguing ANYTHING other than my belief that we need a new crosstown for safety reasons.

Would you like to add any more fallacies to the thread while you're at it?

[betts]

I want that portion of I-40 on the ground. A pothole on a ground level road is a lot less problematic than a hole in an elevated highway.

[okcpulse]

So you're trusting the people who designed the mess you've aptly described above to "fix you up with a new, improved Crosstown?" Even though they've already silently conspired to sink bridge piers involved in the "New Crosstown" into an un-remediated lake of corrosive acid sludge?

Do you figure the "safety features" of the "old Crosstown" that you've described were somehow "better than today" when the structure was first opened back in 1966?

You're trusting "the fathers of fracture critical roadway bridge design" to replace the current inexplicable structure with "something better" -- only, of course, they'll "surely do it right this time?"

...and, by the way, they'll "get right on it" if we'll all "just avert our eyes from the unnecessary destruction of the center of our state's railway network?"

"Small price to pay," huh? That way we'll likely never have any alternative to their brilliantly conceived highways?

...and isn't the Emperor looking "particularly stunning" today in his "new clothes?"

TOM ELMORE

Oh boy, another conspiracy theorist who does all the opposing and none of the planning.

[edcrunk]

tom, are you speaking of the sludge pit that is being pumped full of chemicals so as to neutralize the acid?

[blangtang]

dont worry, Mr kessler has leased a locomotive that will operate on the Union Station tracks. This way the bnsf/odot folks will be hamstringed for a while at least

i hope that highway project sinks into the river

[edcrunk]

dont worry, Mr kessler has leased a locomotive that will operate on the Union Station tracks. This way the bnsf/odot folks will be hamstringed for a while at least

i hope that highway project sinks into the river

i hope our current crosstown doesn't collapse and leave edwin kessler with blood on his hands.

[edcrunk]

this is what ODOT says concerning the precious rail yard...

Construction of the new Crosstown is not destroying Union station.

In fact, there are currently two active rail lines located just south of the Union Station. The remainder of the former Union Station yard is currently unusable due to the fact that the railroad companies have removed many of the tracks and any other remaining tracks are unserviceable.

The northernmost of the two active lines is operated by the Union Pacific (UP). This line will be depressed, along with the roadway, from approximately Santa Fe Ave. to approximately Western Ave. and maintain somewhat the current alignment. The UP line will be far enough to the south to allow for a second track to be installed in the future in the event that passenger rail activities ever return to Union Station.
Just to the south of the UP line is an east-west line belonging to the BNSF Railroad. This line will be removed and the trains diverted to the south of the North Canadian River onto an existing east-west line referred to as the Packingtown Lead, which ODOT is updating. Utilization of this line and the existing north-south BNSF mainline in conjunction with improvements to the Flynn Yard will ensure continued service for the area. This work will improve the connectivity from the area of Will Rogers World Airport to the Santa Fe Station, which is the chosen Oklahoma City passenger rail facility.

[betts]

this is what ODOT says concerning the precious rail yard...

Construction of the new Crosstown is not destroying Union station.

In fact, there are currently two active rail lines located just south of the Union Station. The remainder of the former Union Station yard is currently unusable due to the fact that the railroad companies have removed many of the tracks and any other remaining tracks are unserviceable.

The northernmost of the two active lines is operated by the Union Pacific (UP). This line will be depressed, along with the roadway, from approximately Santa Fe Ave. to approximately Western Ave. and maintain somewhat the current alignment. The UP line will be far enough to the south to allow for a second track to be installed in the future in the event that passenger rail activities ever return to Union Station.
Just to the south of the UP line is an east-west line belonging to the BNSF Railroad. This line will be removed and the trains diverted to the south of the North Canadian River onto an existing east-west line referred to as the Packingtown Lead, which ODOT is updating. Utilization of this line and the existing north-south BNSF mainline in conjunction with improvements to the Flynn Yard will ensure continued service for the area. This work will improve the connectivity from the area of Will Rogers World Airport to the Santa Fe Station, which is the chosen Oklahoma City passenger rail facility.

Precisely what those of us who aren't opposed to rail transit (although still unsure how many people will use it on the east-west route), but do not want what goes along with a multimodal station bisecting Core to Shore would like to see. If we need a multimodal station, it can still be located in a better place, and yet rail lines exist, which should make the rail people happy.

[amaesquire]

Acid sludge, railroads and pessimists aside, this project will go through. Just let the nay-sayers stand on their soapbox, it makes them feel better.

The best part of all of it is they will use it when it's built -- no matter what they say now.

[Kerry]

So Tom Elmore doesn't trust ODOT to build a new highway. Just who does Tom think will build a state wide rail system? The tooth fairy?

[bretthexum]

Good safety tips. But that applies to any bridge (minus the holes). I had a tire blowout on a bridge with not much of a shoulder. Scary to say the least. I ended up driving 3/4 mile to get off the bridge before stopping. Ruined my rim, but at least I am alive.

[AFCM]

Good safety tips. But that applies to any bridge (minus the holes). I had a tire blowout on a bridge with not much of a shoulder. Scary to say the least. I ended up driving 3/4 mile to get off the bridge before stopping. Ruined my rim, but at least I am alive.

That's exactly what I would've done in your situation. It's sad we should be forced to destruct our rims for safety, but in conditions like presented, it's better to buy new rims than to potentially demolish your vehicle or risk life and limb trying to repair your vehicle in a lane.

Of course, every circumstance may be different, so the only things a person can try to do are remain calm and use common sense when making decisions.

[bombermwc]

Tom Elmore = the same old arguement that lacks any fact or weight on actual use.

So a train uses a line once in how many years we have to save the line? All the while, 100K people use the road and we have to suffer. Yeah, I see how that's totally fair you retard.

[OKCTalker]

I hear that Jimmy Hoffa's buried in the vicinity of where the new Crosstown will go. The delay is because they haven't been able to find him, and the mob has told ODOT not to proceed until they can get him relocated. But I may have misunderstood...

[Tom Elmore]

43,000 Americans die and hundreds of thousands are injured each year on the nation's highway system.

How is unnecessarily destroying long standing, readily available, high-quality and instantly useful railway alternatives to rebuild four miles of poorly (abysmally) designed highway "helpful?"

How are "solutions" that create entirely new sets of problems actually "solutions?"

It's a blind, silly idea of the sort we'd expect to come only from ODOT and its self-interested apologists.

The people who created this problem ought to be caused to fix it -- under the open gaze of the public that pays their salaries -- without creating new problems.

If not, why not? How much longer is this sort of unaccountable monkey business going to be tolerated in Oklahoma?

Allow me to suggest that those who would "wink" at the sort of staggering incompetence that has characterized the "New Crosstown" project very likely have their own reasons for talking down accountability and plain dealing.

TOM ELMORE

[LordGerald]

43,000 Americans die and hundreds of thousands are injured each year on the nation's highway system.

How is unnecessarily destroying long standing, readily available, high-quality and instantly useful railway alternatives to rebuild four miles of poorly (abysmally) designed highway "helpful?"

How are "solutions" that create entirely new sets of problems actually "solutions?"

It's a blind, silly idea of the sort we'd expect to come only from ODOT and its self-interested apologists.

The people who created this problem ought to be caused to fix it -- under the open gaze of the public that pays their salaries -- without creating new problems.

If not, why not? How much longer is this sort of unaccountable monkey business going to be tolerated in Oklahoma?

Allow me to suggest that those who would "wink" at the sort of staggering incompetence that has characterized the "New Crosstown" project very likely have their own reasons for talking down accountability and plain dealing.

TOM ELMORE

ZZZzzzzz. Snore. Really. You jumped the shark so long ago, you've become a parody of yourself.

[Luke]

So, if there can still be rail access from Union Station and also a highway, then what is the problem?

[edcrunk]

odot needs it's side represented. so it copied and pasted some more info from it's 40 FORWARD website. this is their responses to commonly asked questions.


why don't we just go to light rail instead of building the crosstown.

The situations of the two metropolitan areas vary by a substantial amount. The 2000 census shows a population density of 255.1 persons per square mile in Oklahoma City, and a population density of 573.6 persons per square mile in Dallas. Congestion within the Dallas metropolitan area is significantly higher than that experienced in Oklahoma City. A fixed guideway - rail - transit system works in areas of high demand with a localized destination areas, such as concentrated business districts. Oklahoma City has avoided having a high concentration by allowing growth to occur across the city.
Some proponents of the Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) system claim that it has a daily ridership of up to 43,000 per day. If the ridership for Oklahoma City would be similar in regards to population, then the system would carry 8,921 per day. Today, the I-40 Crosstown Expressway carries an annual average daily traffic of 119,600. Even if each of those almost 9,000 riders came from traffic utilizing the Crosstown, the facility would still be carrying in excess of 110,000 vehicles per day. That facility was designed to carry 76,000 per day.

why not leave the crosstown where it is... this is odot's response.

The environmental clearance process studied that question in-depth. There are several significant problems with attempting to rebuild the Crosstown where it is. The existing interstate alignment is experiencing a great deal of nearby expansion and development. With the proximity of a number of features such as Ford Center on the north and the OG&E facilities on the south, there is not room for widening of the existing corridor to accommodate the necessary capacity.
Also, a reconstruction of the Crosstown would take far longer to complete than building a new roadway. Work would have to be done in several phases, and would really inconvenience traffic along this corridor. By building a new roadway, construction will be able to proceed at a faster pace and cause fewer traffic delays, and be the best use of taxpayer funds.


and here is tom elmore's argument that the crosstown isn't really in that bad of shape. the media is in league with odot....
IS THE CROSSTOWN FREEWAY REALLY CRUMBLING

[bombermwc]

Is the Crosstown really crumbling? Are you freaking kidding me?

OK, here's a good way to answer that question. Go walk under the bridge along I-40 and check out the columns. You will see huge chunks of conrete missing from the support structure as well as portions that are rusted out. Notice that I didn't mention the road deck at all. While most people complain about that, I think those in the know understand that's not where the real problem is....the deck could be smoothed out and refurbished to an acceptable state. However, it's not worth it to do that, or renovate the underlying crumbling support structure. Why? Because the ridership on the road far exceeds the design capacity of the roadway...and it's only going to go up. Whether we have rail or not, the number is still going to be over 100K a year on the road....more than 1/4 more people than it's supposed to have on it.

Here's something else to think about. While you sit in rush hour, feel the bridge and how much it moves. It was NOT designed to be flexible in a way you can feel. It is NOT a suspension bridge and is NOT supposed to bend and flex where a person can feel it. However, everyday the exceeded traffic volume causes the bridge to vibrate constantly. This causes joints to move far more than what they were intended for. The design of that bridge is intended to flex for weather related adjustments in temperature, NOT to act as a trampoline. This is why you see so much of the concrete being ground into powder in both the deck and the support structure. This type of wear also causes metal fatigue. Everyone remember how the airline industry used to say there was no such thing? Do you remember the Hawaiin Airlines flight that proved it did??? So don't give me some bull crap about how a road doesn't create metal fatigue. That Minnesota bridge will prove my point there.

So Tom, we continue to see the same statements posted over and over saying the same things. But you fail to acknowledge that they are just your opinion. You can keep saying the same things till your blue in the face, but you aren't going to get people to come to your opinion because it's just not true. This "conspiracy" to take the rail doesn't exist, nor is that the location any intermodal station or otherwise would use. It's insufficient to meet any needs the city would have in any way possible. It's a perfect example of the addage "it's more valuable as a parking lot".

[MrZ]

2 lanes of westbound I-40 at I-44 junction closed until 9 p.m. | NewsOK.com

Didn't we just see this a couple days ago? and a couple days before that?

[ShiroiHikari]

I don't know about anybody else, but I avoid the I-40 Crosstown at all costs. I'd rather take city streets to that area than drive on that rickety old thing.

[Tom Elmore]

I'd observe, for the sake of clarity, that the latest I-40 problem noted above does not involve the Crosstown Bridge. Tuesday's problem was with "another bridge" which just happens to lie down at the west end of the Crosstown corridor.

Last week, "the problem" was reportedly a hole in the deck of I-40 at SE 15th in Del City / MWC. That, also, did not involve the Crosstown Bridge.

20 "critical" bridges are said to face ODOT throughout the state -- though the agency, reportedly, is currently addressing "only one."

If you wanna get a real good look at some of ODOT's sterling bridge managment, check out the exposed rebar in the supports for the I-40 Bridge over Sunnylane. It makes the actual "Crosstown Bridge" look pretty good.

The question should be asked, yet again: If the Crosstown Bridge, itself, is in "such bad shape," why doesn't the Department, at least, placard that section against use by the heaviest commercial trucks? There's no reason at all for most of them to be there. In fact, for "safety's sake," it'd be much better if they never used that route.

One reason they're not prohibited there , I'd speculate, is that if most through trucks were diverted to better routes through town using the digital signs at the ends of the corridor, it would soon be apparent that "The Crosstown" is absolutely unnecessary to handle cross-country I-40 traffic. "Whoosh." There goes all that baloney about the downtown segment being "critical to the national corridor."

...begging the question, "Why are we blowing perhaps a billion + on four miles of redundant roadway?"

Our railroad lines, on the other hand, are absolutely critical. A modern, single-track railway can move freight -- or anything else -- equivalent to a 20-lane expressway, with better than one-third the fuel burn, far more safely, with far better security, at substantially lower maintenance cost and with significantly less negative environmental effect than highway modes.

Double-tracking that line more than doubles its capacity -- all easily fitting within a 100-foot-wide right of way.

Unbeknownst to many, something on the order of 40.5% of the nation's ton-mileage (that's one ton of freight moved one mile) was being handled by rail prior to the fuel price tsunami. Most of that was handled on lines owned by the railroad companies, themselves, and maintained out of their profits. Trucking, meanwhile, carried less than 29% -- but, as the chief, overwhelming damager of roads and bridges, left taxpayers holding the bag for most of the cost of that damage -- inflicted while they carried the smaller share, struggling, despite huge, de facto subsidy, for profitability.

Rail demand has skyrocketed since then.

Even the folks at ODOT must surely know these things -- which means they have even less excuse for their inexplicable treatment of our strategic, central rail assets than might othewise have been apparent.

And, yes -- as bad as the picture I've painted in this post appears, the situation with ODOT is actually far, far worse than that.

TOM ELMORE

[Kerry]

Tom your killing me. You do realize that not every place a truck stops has rail access don't you? Do you have any idea how slow it is to move freight via rail. It can take weeks to move a single rail car across the country. A simi can do it in 36 hours with tandem drivers. I heard a commercial one time for a nationwide overnight delivery by rail company. The name of the company was Norfolk and Way (say it real fast).

Many companies employ just-in-time delivery systems that save billions in inventory costs. These companies can't afford to have a large percentage of their inventory sitting on a rail siding outside North Platte, Nebraska for 2 days. If you are of the opinion that our national semi-truck delivery system can be replaced rail you are crazier than I thought. Of course, you did just post an article in another thread about how over-worked our national rail system is so I am not really sure what point you are trying to make anymore.