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  1. #1

    Default Electric Vehicles

    Not your father's "End of Suburbia"...


    All fossil-fuel vehicles will vanish in 8 years in twin ‘death spiral’ for big oil and big autos, says study that’s shocking the industries
    This speedy revolution, a Stanford economist says, will be driven by technology, not climate policies — and while his timing may be off a few years, there is little doubt about the direction

    No more petrol or diesel cars, buses, or trucks will be sold anywhere in the world within eight years. The entire market for land transport will switch to electrification, leading to a collapse of oil prices and the demise of the petroleum industry as we have known it for a century.

    This is the futuristic forecast by Stanford University economist Tony Seba. His report, with the deceptively bland title Rethinking Transportation 2020-2030, has gone viral in green circles and is causing spasms of anxiety in the established industries.

    It is a twin “death spiral” for big oil and big autos, with ugly implications for some big companies on the London Stock Exchange unless they adapt in time.

    The long-term price of crude will fall to US$25 a barrel. Most forms of shale and deep-water drilling will no longer be viable. Assets will be stranded. Scotland will forfeit any North Sea bonanza. Russia, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, and Venezuela will be in trouble.

    It is an existential threat to Ford, General Motors, and the German car industry. They will face a choice between manufacturing EVs in a brutal low-profit market, or reinventing themselves a self-drive service companies, variants of Uber and Lyft.

    They are in the wrong business. The next generation of cars will be “computers on wheels”. Google, Apple, and Foxconn have the disruptive edge, and are going in for the kill. Silicon Valley is where the auto action is, not Detroit, Wolfsburg, or Toyota City.

    The shift, according to Seba, is driven by technology, not climate policies. Market forces are bringing it about with a speed and ferocity that governments could never hope to achieve.

    “We are on the cusp of one of the fastest, deepest, most consequential disruptions of transportation in history,” Prof Seba said. “Internal combustion engine vehicles will enter a vicious cycle of increasing costs.”

    The “tipping point” will arrive over the next two to three years as EV battery ranges surpass 200 miles and electric car prices in the US drop to $30,000. By 2022 the low-end models will be down to $20,000. After that, the avalanche will sweep all before it.

    “What the cost curve says is that by 2025 all new vehicles will be electric, all new buses, all new cars, all new tractors, all new vans, anything that moves on wheels will be electric, globally,” Prof Seba said.

    We are on the cusp of one of the fastest, deepest, most consequential disruptions of transportation in history

    Seba’s premise is that people will stop driving altogether. They will switch en masse to self-drive electric vehicles (EVs) that are ten times cheaper to run than fossil-based cars, with a near-zero marginal cost of fuel and an expected lifespan of 1 million miles.

    Only nostalgics will cling to the old habit of car ownership. The rest will adapt to vehicles on demand. It will become harder to find a petrol station, spares, or anybody to fix the 2,000 moving parts that bedevil the internal combustion engine. Dealers will disappear by 2024.

    Cities will ban human drivers once the data confirms how dangerous they can be behind a wheel. This will spread to suburbs, and then beyond. There will be a “mass stranding of existing vehicles”. The value of second-hard cars will plunge. You will have to pay to dispose of your old vehicle.
    http://business.financialpost.com/tr...g-the-industry

    His time line is probably off by a decade or more but otherwise probably not so much.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    i definitely think the market is headed in that direction but 8 years for 'every vehicle' to transition from internal combustion sounds more like some economist's wish than reality.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    i definitely think the market is headed in that direction but 8 years for 'every vehicle' to transition from internal combustion sounds more like some economist's wish than reality.
    It has been brought up in other discussions that the average time a care is used is around 20 years in the US (though may be through multiple owners), so 8 years is highly optimistic for the transition to be complete, especially since they are only around 2% sold today. Even if in a decade it did reach the vast majority of new cars sold being battery electric, we are still likely looking more around 30 years before most of the petroleum cars really would be phased out.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    LOL at the article. Hell i'll hold out if nothing else.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    I usually keep vehicles 12-15 years, my Tesla Roadster being an exception at 5. I'm about to swap a couple into new ICE or hybrids and do not expect to have problems finding gas for the lifetime I own them. His timeline was 2020-2030. As I said, he's probably off by a decade or two but we'll see. I'd guess maybe 95% of the cars on the road flip every 15 - 20 years, two generations would be 2040's-2050's. I can sure see it happening where most of the cars two flips out would be electric, unless there is a major disruptive accelerator that speeds that up.

  6. Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by mkjeeves View Post
    I usually keep vehicles 12-15 years, my Tesla Roadster being an exception at 5. I'm about to swap a couple into new ICE or hybrids and do not expect to have problems finding gas for the lifetime I own them. His timeline was 2020-2030. As I said, he's probably off by a decade or two but we'll see. I'd guess maybe 95% of the cars on the road flip every 15 - 20 years, two generations would be 2040's-2050's. I can sure see it happening where most of the cars two flips out would be electric, unless there is a major disruptive accelerator that speeds that up.
    you don't happen to drive the blue roadster I saw driving down main street in Norman a couple weeks ago? I was floored when i saw it. Before that time I thought I was lucky to see a Model S in Oklahoma.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by ChargerAg View Post
    you don't happen to drive the blue roadster I saw driving down main street in Norman a couple weeks ago? I was floored when i saw it. Before that time I thought I was lucky to see a Model S in Oklahoma.
    Nope. The one I had was red. It left the state when I sold it. I've only seen a couple of other roadsters locally but have seen several Model S. They blend in.

  8. Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by ChargerAg View Post
    you don't happen to drive the blue roadster I saw driving down main street in Norman a couple weeks ago? I was floored when i saw it. Before that time I thought I was lucky to see a Model S in Oklahoma.
    At my polling station in Norman I saw three model s's and two model xs. They are a lot more common if you keep an eye out. I think I have only ever seen one roadster in OKC/Norman Area.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    Aren't electric vehicles fossil fuel vehicles? I mean, where do they think that electricity comes from? Unicorns? A majority of it comes from coal.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by traxx View Post
    Aren't electric vehicles fossil fuel vehicles? I mean, where do they think that electricity comes from? Unicorns? A majority of it comes from coal.
    Coal is 30% of electricity generation in the U.S., a close second behind natural gas. Coal is about 25% in the EU, in third place behind renewables (as a group) and nuclear.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by riflesforwatie View Post
    Coal is 30% of electricity generation in the U.S., a close second behind natural gas. Coal is about 25% in the EU, in third place behind renewables (as a group) and nuclear.
    According to this site: https://oaspub.epa.gov/powpro/ept_pack.charts coal is nearly 39% and gas is 27.5% followed by nuclear at 19.5% nationally.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by traxx View Post
    According to this site: https://oaspub.epa.gov/powpro/ept_pack.charts coal is nearly 39% and gas is 27.5% followed by nuclear at 19.5% nationally.
    Not that I don't trust your link but I can't get it to show national stats, only local ones. Is there a more specific link?

    Here was my source:

    "Natural gas was the source of about 34% of U.S. electricity generation in 2016. In addition to burning natural gas to heat water for steam, it is also burned to produce hot combustion gases that pass through a gas turbine, spinning the turbine's blades to generate electricity.

    Coal was the second-largest energy source for U.S. electricity generation in 2016—about 30%. Nearly all coal-fired power plants use steam turbines. A few coal-fired power plants convert coal to a gas for use in a gas turbine to generate electricity."

    https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/..._united_states

  13. #13

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by riflesforwatie View Post
    Not that I don't trust your link but I can't get it to show national stats, only local ones. Is there a more specific link?

    Here was my source:

    "Natural gas was the source of about 34% of U.S. electricity generation in 2016. In addition to burning natural gas to heat water for steam, it is also burned to produce hot combustion gases that pass through a gas turbine, spinning the turbine's blades to generate electricity.

    Coal was the second-largest energy source for U.S. electricity generation in 2016—about 30%. Nearly all coal-fired power plants use steam turbines. A few coal-fired power plants convert coal to a gas for use in a gas turbine to generate electricity."

    https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/..._united_states
    Put in your zip, hit enter, then hit view report. It'll give you info on your region as well as national.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    Coal is Number 1 in China, and second is not close...

    Coal Total %
    2004 1,713 2,200 78%
    2007 2,656 3,279 81%
    2008 2,733 3,457 79%
    2009 2,913 3,696 79%
    2010 3,273 4,208 78%
    2011 3,724 4,715 79%
    2012 3,850 4,937 78%
    2013 4,200 5,398 78%
    2014 4,354 5,583 78%
    2015 4,115 5,666 73%
    2016 3,906 5,920 66%[1]
    excluding Hong Kong

  15. #15

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by traxx View Post
    Aren't electric vehicles fossil fuel vehicles? I mean, where do they think that electricity comes from? Unicorns? A majority of it comes from coal.
    you beat me to it haha

    According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), fossil fuel–based power plants—burning coal, oil, or natural gas—create nearly 60 percent of the nation's power, while nuclear power accounts for about 20 percent.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by shartel_ave View Post
    you beat me to it haha

    According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), fossil fuel–based power plants—burning coal, oil, or natural gas—create nearly 60 percent of the nation's power, while nuclear power accounts for about 20 percent.
    That ratio is changing every day as more and more solar and wind farms are built, residential and commercial users install their own solar, and coal plants are replaced with natural gas. It is still vastly more efficient to electrically charge 100 vehicles, vs those 100 vehicles powering themselves. The economy of scale of large turbine electrical plants is impossible to meet via single engines.

    I reference the infamous meme that makes the rounds every couple of months: The electric charging station being powered by a diesel generator. As funny and ironic as it is, that is still more efficient than all of those vehicles generating their own power. Plus it's just one static source of emissions versus multiple sources dispersing pollution everywhere.

    Again, I always reference that I own 3 ICE vehicles. 1 of which is not legal in California (32-year-old carburated motorcycle)...electric isn't there for me yet, but am very quickly running out of reasons to not do it, myself.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    That ratio is changing every day as more and more solar and wind farms are built, residential and commercial users install their own solar, and coal plants are replaced with natural gas. It is still vastly more efficient to electrically charge 100 vehicles, vs those 100 vehicles powering themselves. The economy of scale of large turbine electrical plants is impossible to meet via single engines.

    I reference the infamous meme that makes the rounds every couple of months: The electric charging station being powered by a diesel generator. As funny and ironic as it is, that is still more efficient than all of those vehicles generating their own power. Plus it's just one static source of emissions versus multiple sources dispersing pollution everywhere.

    Again, I always reference that I own 3 ICE vehicles. 1 of which is not legal in California (32-year-old carburated motorcycle)...electric isn't there for me yet, but am very quickly running out of reasons to not do it, myself.
    I hope I live to see the day when oil/coal/fossilfues/nuclear is no longer needed. I guess my pessimism is due to big oil and the lobbying power they have thanks to "citizens united"

  18. #18

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by shartel_ave View Post
    you beat me to it haha

    According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), fossil fuel–based power plants—burning coal, oil, or natural gas—create nearly 60 percent of the nation's power, while nuclear power accounts for about 20 percent.
    Wow, we should definitely transition the energy grid too, I can't believe nobody thought of that before.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by shartel_ave View Post
    you beat me to it haha

    According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), fossil fuel–based power plants—burning coal, oil, or natural gas—create nearly 60 percent of the nation's power, while nuclear power accounts for about 20 percent.
    Though If you look at the numbers there has been a lot of change over just one decade. Coal in the US is around half of what it was a decade ago. Renewables have been on the rise, now providing more than coal. Natural Gas has risen too, largely as it displaced more coal than renewables have so far. We also have much longer proven reserves of natural gas, and it seems is a much more stable price.

    There is also aspects that national percentage does not show, like you get around twice as much energy out of fuel burned in a power plant than you do in a car engine, due to economies of scale and common techniques like routing the steam produced through multiple turbines.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    Though If you look at the numbers there has been a lot of change over just one decade. Coal in the US is around half of what it was a decade ago. Renewables have been on the rise, now providing more than coal. Natural Gas has risen too, largely as it displaced more coal than renewables have so far. We also have much longer proven reserves of natural gas, and it seems is a much more stable price.

    There is also aspects that national percentage does not show, like you get around twice as much energy out of fuel burned in a power plant than you do in a car engine, due to economies of scale and common techniques like routing the steam produced through multiple turbines.
    Renewables will hit a cap at some point simply because the intermittency issue isn't solvable on the short and medium time-frames. The renewable market is undergoing significant commodity challenges that aren't going away as demand outpaces supply. Energy density is a massive factor. Not to mention the environmental impact of renewables has largely been ignored, but won't be forever. (Rare earth mineral mining, sheer volume of land needed, bird destruction, soil degradation) There are trade offs to everything. Renewables will be no exception.

    Natural gas powerplants use a combined cycle turbine. That's what your referring too when you say "multiple turbines". The first cycle burns the gas and spins the turbine. The second cycle takes the heat from the burned gas, makes steam and powers another one. Electrical efficiency rises to 66%. In other words, 66% of the potential energy from the natural gas is converted to electricity, the rest is heat waste. (33% on a normal turbine)

    Some recent examples
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...?sref=VEjJXJjm
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...&sref=VEjJXJjm
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...hs-settlement/ (people will get mad about this one day)
    https://twitter.com/JohnLeePettim13/...msVIu9KBw_JhoA

  21. #21

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    JLR announced today that their entire lineup will be EV or hybrid starting in 2020.

    Volvo already has announced that, for 2019.

    Honda will offer their entire lineup as EV or hybrid by 2020, but will still sell traditional cars.

    The UK and France are banning the sale of IC cars by 2040. Now the devolved Scottish government is aiming for the same thing by 2032.

    JLR and Volvo are relatively small potatoes in the market, but the writing is on the wall. I think the language in the article is a little over the top, and the timeline is ambitious, but it will happen. It's just a matter of time.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    I agree with both points. 8 years seems a bit fast, but that said, it's all but a done deal. I think the US will be one of the last holdouts. As mentioned, some European countries are already banning the traditional engine, but I don't see the US doing that (regardless of which power is in office) any time soon. As long as both are made, both will continue to sell.

    Once they start, the dominoes will fall fast, I just don't think the timeframe on that is within the next 8 years.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    I'm not sure about a transition in 8 years, especially if the price of oil is hovering around $25-30. Oil at that price is a fairly major incentive to hold on to an ICE vehicle.

    The other elephant in the room is the cost of lithium, copper, and other rare metals in EVs. If demand for EVs does increase in line with the economist's view, those raw materials are going to become rather expensive. Not to mention, I think we'll see the price of natural gas climb as wind mills and solar farms alone will not create the type of capacity the grid needs to support all the new EVs.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    Lol

  25. #25

    Default Re: Electric Vehicles

    It's about par for the course that all these sites that have been linked are government sites and should be official numbers but all of their numbers are vastly different.

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