SPINOFF TOPIC: Abortion

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09-27-2005, 03:42 PM
Winterhawk

SPINOFF TOPIC: Abortion

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadMonk

The baby isn't a state possesion either. How can you approve of someone killing him/her?

People are killing born babies? They should go to jail. Perhaps the word you are searching for is fetus. Lets not assign an identity to an egg that has recently been fertilized.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Webster's Dictionary

a·bor·tion Audio pronunciation of "abortion" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-bôrshn)
n.

1.
a. Termination of pregnancy and expulsion of an embryo or of a fetus that is incapable of survival.
b. Any of various procedures that result in such termination and expulsion. Also called induced abortion.
2. The premature expulsion of a nonviable fetus from the uterus; a miscarriage.
3. Cessation of normal growth, especially of an organ or other body part, prior to full development or maturation.
4. An aborted organism.

I don't see the word baby in there, but I do see fetus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by New England Journal of Medcine

baby

1. An infant or young child of either sex; a babe.

2. A small image of an infant; a doll. Babies in the eyes, the minute reflection which one sees of one's self in the eyes of another.

infant

The child up to 24 months of age. The word infant is from the latin meaning not speaking.

fetus -->foetus

A developing unborn offspring of an animal that gives birth to its young (as opposed to laying eggs).

No one is killing babies, people often use the wrong word to describe things. Abortion is the termination of an organism.

Coincidentally, the definition of abortion also includes miscarriages, so shall we begin jailing women for having them?

The true question is who bears right & responsibility for the decision making on behalf of a fetus.

If it were a born child you would say the parents, however if we discussed an underdevloped, unborn organism or fetus, the parents doesn't have that. So then the question to you is if the parent does not begin with the right to make decision on behalf on the organism, then who does, and when does it shift to the parent?

Notice: This is an objective evaluation of the topic of Abortion, this does not necessarily reflect my personal views. I am not attempting to offend anyone but merely provide clarity to an issue where words are often misued and facts often misrepresented.
09-27-2005, 04:01 PM
MadMonk

Re: 'More interested in power than in justice'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterhawk

No one is killing babies, people often use the wrong word to describe things. Abortion is the termination of an organism.

Sorry, but no matter how many dictionaries you refer to, no matter how you try to pretty-up the concept, it all boils down to killing a human being that came into being at the point of conception and I am against it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterhawk

Coincidentally, the definition of abortion also includes miscarriages, so shall we begin jailing women for having them?

A silly argument that avoid the fact that abortion intentionally kills a baby.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterhawk

The true question is who bears right & responsibility for the decision making on behalf of a fetus.

No, the only question is for the mother and is "Do I want to kill this human being I'm carrying or let it live?" I don't think she should be able to make that choice any more than she should be able to make the "choice" to drown them in the bathtub after they are born.
09-27-2005, 04:52 PM
Winterhawk

Re: 'More interested in power than in justice'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madmonk

Sorry, but no matter how many dictionaries you refer to, no matter how you try to pretty-up the concept, it all boils down to killing a human being that came into being at the point of conception and I am against it.

I am not trying to "pretty up" anything as you infer. That implies that I am attempting to hide something in the argument. I am not. I presented definitions of the terms you were using in order to clarify passion from fact. Abortion is not the killing of a baby, infant or child. It is the termination of a developmental embryo.

You are against the termination of an organism in its developmental stage. Good for you and well done on stating your point. I wonder if your passion extends to simply fertilized eggs. I am curious to see your answer to that question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadMonk

A silly argument that avoid the fact that abortion intentionally kills a baby.

No, sorry. While to point I was making was that in this day in age where people claim context is so key, it seemed ironic that this portion of the definition has slipped out of any conversation. However I concede that it does not need to be a part of this discussion.

However abortion is not the intentional killing of a baby. Intended Abortion is the intentional termination of a fetus. Abortion is a term that encompasses any termination of an organism, intended or unintended. You truly need to stop calling a fetus a baby as that implies sentience and rights. At what point do you wish to offer human rights to a developmental embryo?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadMonk

No, the only question is for the mother and is "Do I want to kill this human being I'm carrying or let it live?" I don't think she should be able to make that choice any more than she should be able to make the "choice" to drown them in the bathtub after they are born.

Again the mother is not killing a baby, unless you can find a single scientific fact that defines a baby as a developmental embryo. Your passion allows you to blur the definition of terms so that you may substantiate your point. However, again, a baby has been born, left the womb, capable of sustaining life without bioligical attachment to the mother, i.e. womb or cord.

We have laws against killing people, but we aren't talking about people. We are talking about a developmental embryo.

My previous question is still the point of the debate no matter how you wish to misuse terms in order to muster emotion on your argument's behalf.

Who is the initial caretaker of a fetus' rights, if they are entitled to any, and if the parent does not gain initial right, then who does and at what point do they transfer to the parent?

My point here is that it is not a decision for the state to make, it is the woman and or parents to make the decision.

Again, I am not intending to offend which many people will take from this statement. I am just making an objective argument without passion or pretense.