Good news, Decious. Thanks!

That would be wayyyy cool, I could get all my work clothes when I come visit friends/relatives in OKC.

Tulsa World.com Return to Story Return to Story

OKC ponders outlet mall incentives

by: The Associated Press
5/3/2008 12:00 AM

OKLAHOMA CITY -- The city council will consider a $7.8 million incentives package as part of a proposed $50 million factory outlet mall planned along Interstate 40 on the city's west side.

The Oklahoma City Council on Tuesday is expected to consider a package that would include tax rebates of $550,000 a year and $2.3 million for infrastructure, including storm water drainage and intersection improvements.

"This is what could be called a sales tax rebate," said Brent Bryant, Oklahoma City's economic development director. "But they will have to do things that will ensure the livelihood of the center -- we want accountability."

The rebate would reflect 12.5 percent of anticipated sales taxes from the outlet mall, Bryant said, and mall owner Horizon would be required to document regional marketing expenses, sales tax data, and show that the sales tax is either equal to or greater than the annual marketing costs.

Figures provided to the city by Horizon estimate the outlet mall will result in 1,000 retail jobs, 700 temporary construction jobs, annual sales totaling $102 million and $3.9 million in annual sales taxes.

If the deal is approved, construction is set to start within 60 days with an opening by November 2009.

Does anybody know how the city council voted on this today?

The City Council approved it.

awesome

thats fan-freakin-tastic

I hope this turns out well. They're going to have to go above and beyond on this as outlet malls have lost some of their cache. Outlet malls aren't the place where you get the good deals that you used to get. In some instances they cost more.

Im kinda new here so what kind of outlet mall are we talking about?

worthy cook, check out the fist of this thread, page one. i would think it will be the same.

I'm sorry I really hate to be a "Debbie Downer," but does anybody else feel that this area (OKC area) is really starting to become overbuilt? Between this, University North Park, Quail Springs Village, MWC Town Center etc. etc. is OKC really reaching a saturation point as far as retail centers go?

all the points you mention are at opposite ends of the city, so to me I-40 & Council being on the west side of OKC makes perfect sense.

I'm sorry I really hate to be a "Debbie Downer," but does anybody else feel that this area (OKC area) is really starting to become overbuilt? Between this, University North Park, Quail Springs Village, MWC Town Center etc. etc. is OKC really reaching a saturation point as far as retail centers go?

I don't think so, we've been underserved for decades on the retail and sports front, 2-3 years of building isn't going to catch us up for the decades we lost.

That is exactly how I feel. I was shopping at Talbots a few months ago and talking to the sales associate about their new store going in across the street. She told me that this store will be comparable to a Dallas Talbots and that so many of the current clients drive to Dallas to shop for the "good stuff".
I imagine there are a lot of people who drive to Dallas to go shopping for their "good stuff". The more we can keep here (or even lure from other cities) the better.

I dont think we are anywhere near we we need to be as far as retail is concerned. I agree, we are playing catch-up in OKC.

City Council OKs $8M in incentives for outlet mall
Journal Record
May 7, 2008

OKLAHOMA CITY – The City Council approved nearly $8 million in economic incentives to help establish a massive outlet mall in western Oklahoma City on Tuesday.

The vote was 5-2 with Larry McAtee and Ronald Kelly dissenting. They asked for time to clarify the city’s policy toward retail business incentives and more information about the developer, Horizon Group Properties, before committing to the plan.

“The Economic Development Trust, which I’m a member of, has been tasked with the responsibility of developing a policy or guideline for incentivizing retail,” McAtee said. “Approving this retail incentivization before we have a policy in place, to me, is putting the cart before the horse.”McAtee, who represents the ward in which the mall is planned, said, “If it were to fit within the guidelines, then I would be supportive. If it’s outside the guidelines, then I would be opposed to it.”

Rosemont, Ill.-based Horizon plans to build a minimum of 340,000 square feet of space near Interstate 40 and Council Road at an initial investment of about $50 million, city officials said. Depending on the success of the center, another 75,000 square feet could be added later.

The mall, dubbed The Outlet Shoppes at Oklahoma City, is expected to have about $102 million in annual sales, which would provide the city with about $4 million in retail taxes. City staff reported that about half of those funds will be new to the local economy.

The development is expected to create about 1,000 new jobs with an annual payroll of $18.72 million. Those jobs will increase local sales tax by an additional $1.5 million, city staff reported. The project is also expected to create about $1.25 million in annual property taxes.

In return, the city will agree to pay for infrastructure improvements – largely traffic and drainage systems – at a cost of about $2.4 million. The city also agreed to reimburse Horizon for regional marketing expenses worth up to $5.5 million over 10 years.

The mall’s construction is scheduled to begin Nov. 30 and be completed within a year.

City Manager Jim Couch reported to the council that the development will “promote sales tax base growth and offer citizens and visitors new shopping opportunities in Oklahoma City.” He confirmed none of the costs will be associated with the recently approved general obligation limited tax bond authorization. The incentives will be paid for out of the city’s Street & Alley and General Obligation Bond Funds and the Oklahoma City Economic Development Trust.

Horizon owns, develops, renovates and operates retail shopping centers, including a dozen factory outlet malls totaling about 2 million square feet. Most of the company’s properties are in the north central part of the country near the Great Lakes, with the rest scattered from California to Pennsylvania.

Horizon’s typical tenants include Tommy Hilfiger, Lane Bryant, Nice West, Gymboree, and The Gap.

Chief Executive Gary Skoien said the company started looking at Oklahoma as a potential market in 2006, and recent news from Forbes business magazine that the state is better positioned to ride out a recession helped drive the final decision to build in the metro area. “There’s no real outlet center in the state of Oklahoma,” Skoien said. “And it has about the right size population for an outlet center; you don’t want to be too much smaller unless there’s something else going on.“And it’s kind of my sense, which has been reported a lot lately, that it’s got a more resilient economy than other places. … It’s kind of diverse in a positive way,” he said. “And as we started looking at it, we started realizing that some of the national retailers were doing tremendous sales in Oklahoma City.”

Answering Councilman Kelly’s concerns that city officials should take a closer look at Horizon’s other properties before moving forward, Skoien said the company’s malls have strong operations.“We just opened a center last October in El Paso, Texas, which is a similar-size city,” he said. “And it’s doing just terrific. Sales are beating expectations.”

Of the less than 300 outlet malls scattered across the country, Skoien said, Horizon has owned, operated or developed more than half of them. It’s highly unlikely Oklahoma City will be left with a low-sales mall, he said.“Most of the major companies have decided that outlets are a strong channel of distribution. So I think the outlet business itself, by every indication, is very strong,” he said. “Unlike what’s happened in the past, outlet centers are being built closer to the population base. As opposed to the one that used to be right between Oklahoma City and Tulsa (in Stroud), this is right where the people are.

”The company is publicly traded in the over-the-counter market under the symbol HGPI.PK. Its stock was trading at about $4.50 Tuesday, at the lower end of its 52-week range of $4.50-7.00. The company has already started promoting the Oklahoma City project on the Internet at Located in the historic tulip capital (http://www.horizongroup.com/main/Centers/oklahoma/oklahhoma.htm).

i went shopping this weekend and the childrens Place company told me that they will be having a outlet store in the new outlet mall, also casual male big and tall store will be in the new outlet, the disney store told me that they will be setting up a outlet store in the oklahoma shoppes. I having been asking the disneystore about the outlet for the past 6 months, they told me they didnt have any info ion it, but this past weekend they told me they will be there, so i guess the green light is being sent to potential outlet retailers to sign up..So that is only three that I have heard off, I am a big outlet fan, so this is exciting news to me..

I can understand the infrastructure improvements, but I don't get why the city needs to pay the mall's advertising costs for 10 years. Is this a Big League® Outlet Mall?

... The company has already started promoting the Oklahoma City project on the Internet at Located in the historic tulip capital (http://www.horizongroup.com/main/Centers/oklahoma/oklahhoma.htm).

odd spelling of the page title, but as many typos as I make, I suppose I ought not quibble.

Incentives for retail are almost always unnecessary. Developers of retail and malls go where it makes sense for them. This 8 million was another subsidy the council gave away. If you want a short education on how these deals work read (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.greatamericanjobsscam.com%2Fc hapter-2.pdf&ei=_h8sSPfRMZuOiAGMpYC1Bg&usg=AFQjCNEB_ID2h-r_fXD93PhWrAPVt4Qfjg&sig2=csnUtAuoTTTrtWYYms3u7A): I sent the council this link. McAtee is right, having a system of standards for these deals is important. Now money will flow away from the city and local retailers. Ask any local business that sells similar items what they think of these subsidies.

odd spelling of the page title, but as many typos as I make, I suppose I ought not quibble.

To clarify, that was not my quote, but the quote from the article I posted.

Incentives for retail are almost always unnecessary. Developers of retail and malls go where it makes sense for them.
...
Ask any local business that sells similar items what they think of these subsidies.

I can say with certainty that as of this moment for some retail projects certain incentives are necessary or the projects will simply not happen.

The current economic difficulty has caused all quality anchor retailers to reshuffle their cards of expansion opportunities for the 2010 and later years. Most retail developments require one or more anchor retailers. Other retailers sign up for a development initially by signing letters of intent that often are conditional upon the anchor(s). Anchors sign up conditional upon other factors. Those other factors nearly always include economic incentives of one sort or another.

A project that actually happens has to have successful land acquisition followed by at least minimum design and tenant commitments. Budgets have to be created. The project has to be proven to be viable economically. This means that all parties involved have to be able to project profitability for a period of time - years not months. Legal issues including zoning and permitting have to be addressed beforehand. This all takes a very long while.

Projects in our area compete with other potential projects and other developers from all across the nation and even across the globe. Presentations have to be made before teams of people who may have never visited Oklahoma City and know nothing about the place other than what is on national TV and what they find in their packets. So in 2 or 3 hours at most the developer team has to convince the retailer team that this "Okie" project should be a higher priority than one in San Diego or Kansas City or Denver or Orlando.

More difficult economic conditions cause a reduction in the number of quality projects that are available. Oklahoma City is blessed right now with a certain advantage in economic area. We may know that but some team in Timbuktu wants it proven to them.

At this point our economic advantage isn't even very significant because those we are competing against wouldn't even be there if they were not in the same category of economic opportunity. There are other communities whose leaders and developers are every bit as smart and skillful and persuasive and maybe moreso than we are in competing for these opportunities.

Does it make a difference? It does to the people who work here. It does to the people who live here and shop here and raise their children here.

Should our governments be tough negotiators? Yes, and every deal is not necessarily worth doing. It is a negotiation. Just because someone asks for something doesn't mean it has to be given or other things can't be proposed.

It is easy to trivialize and idealize.

Wasn't picking on your writing metro. The page name of the link ended in oklahhoma.htm

I wrote page title but should have written page name. Alas, alack, I'm headed back to my shack.

Retailers go where they can make money, if they can talk a local government into free money they will, but the give away is not why they make their decision. Please read to understand both sides. (http://www.greatamericanjobsscam.com/chapter-2.pdf) The language you use makes me think you might have a financial interest in these kind of projects in some way.

The language you use makes me think you might have a financial interest in these kind of projects in some way.
I know something about development having done some if that is what you mean.

Yes David, nearly any business will go where the climate is favorable to improving the bottom line. That's a given.

So, sit yourself in the private sector decision chair. You have 3 options, all previously vetted and all making economic sense for your bottom line, assuming no incentives on the table.

Then, Option A advises it is willing to host a welcome to town cocktail party for your ribbon cutters

Option B announces it is willing to provide a million in incentives

Option C is willing to lay out 4 million in incentives.

Care to guess which community is going to be spared a cocktail party?

I can say with certainty that as of this moment for some retail projects certain incentives are necessary or the projects will simply not happen.

The current economic difficulty has caused all quality anchor retailers to reshuffle their cards of expansion opportunities for the 2010 and later years. Most retail developments require one or more anchor retailers. Other retailers sign up for a development initially by signing letters of intent that often are conditional upon the anchor(s). Anchors sign up conditional upon other factors. Those other factors nearly always include economic incentives of one sort or another.

A project that actually happens has to have successful land acquisition followed by at least minimum design and tenant commitments. Budgets have to be created. The project has to be proven to be viable economically. This means that all parties involved have to be able to project profitability for a period of time - years not months. Legal issues including zoning and permitting have to be addressed beforehand. This all takes a very long while.

Projects in our area compete with other potential projects and other developers from all across the nation and even across the globe. Presentations have to be made before teams of people who may have never visited Oklahoma City and know nothing about the place other than what is on national TV and what they find in their packets. So in 2 or 3 hours at most the developer team has to convince the retailer team that this "Okie" project should be a higher priority than one in San Diego or Kansas City or Denver or Orlando.

More difficult economic conditions cause a reduction in the number of quality projects that are available. Oklahoma City is blessed right now with a certain advantage in economic area. We may know that but some team in Timbuktu wants it proven to them.

At this point our economic advantage isn't even very significant because those we are competing against wouldn't even be there if they were not in the same category of economic opportunity. There are other communities whose leaders and developers are every bit as smart and skillful and persuasive and maybe moreso than we are in competing for these opportunities.

Does it make a difference? It does to the people who work here. It does to the people who live here and shop here and raise their children here.

Should our governments be tough negotiators? Yes, and every deal is not necessarily worth doing. It is a negotiation. Just because someone asks for something doesn't mean it has to be given or other things can't be proposed.

It is easy to trivialize and idealize.After I compared your comments to those of the Companies Chief Executive Gary Skoien, the two don't add up. Unless Mr. Skoien had some way of knowing for certain, and was secure in the fact way back in 2006 that the 8 Mil. would be forthcoming in 2008.

Yes David, nearly any business will go where the climate is favorable to improving the bottom line. That's a given.

So, sit yourself in the private sector decision chair. You have 3 options, all previously vetted and all making economic sense for your bottom line, assuming no incentives on the table.

Then, Option A advises it is willing to host a welcome to town cocktail party for your ribbon cutters

Option B announces it is willing to provide a million in incentives

Option C is willing to lay out 4 million in incentives.

Care to guess which community is going to be spared a cocktail party?So, what I'm hearing you say is this, and correct me if I'm wrong. If OKC offerd option "A", and Lexington offerd option "C", then Lexington gets the mall, and OKC saves the cost of a cocktail party?

Option D - where ever they decided makes the most market sense location for the shop. Why do you think they are coming to OKC? For the incentives - or - because this is where they want to be? Developers love subsidies but they choose options based on reality first after they decide where they want to go. Don't think so click here and read what David Packard said to the Idaho Governor. (http://www.greatamericanjobsscam.com/chapter-2.pdf)

anymore news on this, has any dirt been moved around yet at all?

Drove by there about 15 mins ago and there is nothing happening yet.

but that was 15 minutes ago, things might have changed since then!!!! just kidding, thanks for the info, I wonder when they will break ground for this

Go back one page and read the article folks, supposed to start in late 2008......

excerpt

City Council OKs $8M in incentives for outlet mall
Journal Record
May 7, 2008


"The mall’s construction is scheduled to begin Nov. 30 and be completed within a year."

What are they gonna be doing for these four months????

Why do they want to work in the cold?

I'm disappointed no polo

If they routinely contract with a specific national construction firm, they may have to work around previously scheduled work. In that same frame, Oklahoma isn't exactly cold, so a Northern firm can be at maximum capacity by building in more temperate climates in the winter and leave the frozen tundra work for summer. I worked construction in the north when I was younger. You could work year round, but all digging and foundation work had to be done before winter set in.

If they don't use the same company routinely, they'll need time for bidding at the very least.

T

This is going to be great! Someone mentioned the outlet mall in Allen, TX. It's one of the best and this sounds very similar. I can't imagine how much money this will keep in our state. I bet Gainesville is sweating it a little.

Ann Taylor, Calvin Klein...it's like a little slice of heaven on I-40.

This is going to be great! Someone mentioned the outlet mall in Allen, TX. It's one of the best and this sounds very similar. I can't imagine how much money this will keep in our state. I bet Gainesville is sweating it a little.

Ann Taylor, Calvin Klein...it's like a little slice of heaven on I-40.


last time I went to the Gainsville stores ~2 yrs ago, it seemed like half of the stores were out of business or having a going out of business sale

Gainesville is nothing like it used to be, as ultimatesooner said, it's almost completely out of business and the stores that remain, I don't know who shops at those stores. Big Dog Clothing?? Honestly? I have never seen anyone wear their clothing yet they have an outlet store in every outlet mall it seems. Grapevine Mills is MUCH closer to DFW and has MUCH more selection. With gas prices rising, I see the outlet malls continuing to locate to metropolitan areas instead of on highways outside metro areas.

Exactly. This might just be the final nail in the coffin.

Not surprised, I knew something would delay this project further........

http://photos.newsok.com/2/showimage/512698/lead620/

Construction is being delayed on what would be the first outlet mall built in Oklahoma in a decade. The 90-store mall features a "racetrack” design and is expected to generate 1,000 retail jobs with an annual payroll of $18.72 million. RENDERING PROVIDED BY THE CITY OF OKLAHOMA CITY

Citing economic uncertainty, construction of a proposed $50 million factory outlet mall in west Oklahoma City is on hold until early 2009.

Michigan-based Horizon Group entered into an agreement with Oklahoma City in May that called for the city to spend $2.3 million on infrastructure for the site at Interstate 40 and Council Road and sales tax rebates of up to $550,000 a year over a decade as reimbursements for actual marketing expenses.

Construction was originally set to start by July, but Assistant City Manager Cathy O’Connor said Thursday the developer has notified the city the project is on hold "to see what the market will do.”

"It’s not anything about this local market, and if a project like this is going to happen, it will happen in Oklahoma City as opposed to anywhere else,” O’Connor said. "It’s really about the uncertainty in the financial markets rather than what’s going on in Oklahoma City.”

Plans sent to city

Developer Tom Rumptz, senior vice president at Horizon, said the outlet mall, originally set to open by fall, 2009, will now likely open by mid-2010.
Rumptz said the project is still solid, with California-based Cousins Properties providing financing and Timberlake Construction signed to build the mall. Rumptz said building plans have been sent to the city’s building permit office for review.

"It’s a macroeconomics issue,” Rumptz said. "The credit markets and financial markets are every unsettled ... Cousins Properties is committed to the project and they have committed the funding. We expect to proceed by the first half of next year.”

Rumptz said the national economy favors factory outlet malls, and he said Oklahoma City remains an attractive retail market.

"We’re very optimistic as to where we are today,” Rumptz said. "We have never wavered on the Oklahoma City market.”

It’s a macro-

economics issue,”

Developer Tom Rumptz

More Infooutlet mall snapshot →Outlet malls nationwide: 217.
→Outlet malls built between Jan. 1, 2007, and April 1: Three, including the Outlet Shoppes at El Passo developed by the Horizon Group.

→Total outlet chains: 305.

→Total outlet stores: 11,546.

Source: Shopping Centers Today Magazine



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
comments Are Delays Good?
Alison Oshel, director of community development at the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber, said Thursday at least two other major retail projects are on hold — but not because of financing problems or concerns about the economy.

Oshel said some developers are holding off until spring to begin construction after hearing from architects that labor and material costs are expected to drop "dramatically” because of slowdowns elsewhere.

"On the coasts they’re dropping construction all together.

"I’m not hearing capital has dried up here — a lot of people still have their financing in place,” Oshel said.

City retail sales tax reports, meanwhile, that spending is still above levels for the same period for last year, but spending growth is slowing

Cousins Properties might be in a little trouble. They are based out of Atlanta and they have suspended several project there as well.

Cousins Properties down 7.7% in Q3 - Atlanta Business Chronicle: (http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2008/11/03/daily62.html)

Kerry, the article states Cousins is based out of California. Perhaps it is a different REIT?

Not surprised, I knew something would delay this project further........

No it's not surprising, but I wouldn't fault OKC in any way. The economy now has slowed retail expansion dramatically. I don't think the city has done any of the infrastructure improvements yet, so we won't be out anything in the event it doesn't happen.

Kerry, the article states Cousins is based out of California. Perhaps it is a different REIT?


I think the article is wrong. They are based out of Atlanta. They do have operations in California and the office responsible for project might be in California, but the parent company is in Atlanta. However, I'll check again just to be sure.

OK - I checked again and they are based in Atlanta.

I got wrong info on Cousins hq. Sorry about that. Doing the best I can in the current situation.

No it's not surprising, but I wouldn't fault OKC in any way. The economy now has slowed retail expansion dramatically. I don't think the city has done any of the infrastructure improvements yet, so we won't be out anything in the event it doesn't happen.

Never faulted the city for this one, I agree, it's the national economy/credit market crisis, heck the article stated that.

I guess Cousins can't get the financing for it at this time, it doesn't surprise me, most of our projects are stalled right now because of the credit markets.

This was a quick update:


The Outlet Shoppes development gets partner
Journal Record
November 13th, 2008

According to a press release on Marketwatch.com, Atlanta-based Cousins Properties Inc. will form a joint venture with Horizon Group Properties Inc. “to pursue the planned development of The Outlet Shoppes,” a massive planned outlet mall in western Oklahoma City.

From The Journal Record on May 7:

Rosemont, Ill.-based Horizon plans to build a minimum of 340,000 square feet of space near Interstate 40 and Council Road at an initial investment of about $50 million, city officials said. Depending on the success of the center, another 75,000 square feet could be added later.

From the press release released today:

…based on the results of the holiday selling season and the continued interest of retailers — construction on the project would begin in spring of 2009 with a July 2010 opening. Horizon Group is overseeing development, management and leasing of the project.

Included in the release is what could be the world’s longest sentence

- a contingency statement stating that it may or may not actually happen - “Certain matters discussed in this news release are forward-looking statements within the meaning of the federal securities laws and are subject to uncertainties and risk.”

These include, but are not limited to, general and local economic conditions (including the current general recession and state of the credit markets), local real estate conditions (including the overall condition of the residential markets), the activity of others developing competitive projects, the risks associated with development projects (such as delay, cost overruns and leasing/sales risk of new properties), the cyclical nature of the real estate industry, the financial condition of existing tenants, interest rates, the Company’s ability to obtain favorable financing or zoning, environmental matters, the effects of terrorism, the ability of the Company to close properties under contract and other risks detailed from time to time in the Company’s filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission, including those described in Part I, Item 1A of the Company’s Annual Report on Form 10-K for the year ended December 31, 2007. The words “believes,” “expects,” “anticipates,” “estimates” and similar expressions are intended to identify forward-looking statements.

has anybody driven by lately ?? has any dirt been moved ???

talked about here.
Economy slows local development - KFOR (http://www.kfor.com/news/local/kfor-news-slowing-development-story,0,6657709.story?track=rss)
http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/17242-developments.html

Not dead, just on hold

It's been talked about so long with nothing happening I'm definitely in the "I'll-believe-it-when-I'm-shopping-in-their-stores" category.

I have spoken to the Developers.... its still going to be built.

I have spoken to the Developers.... its still going to be built.

Any idea when?

When banks start lending again...

project seems to be off... a senior official at Horizon... seems to be interested in speaking to me about buying up the property....

project seems to be off... a senior official at Horizon... seems to be interested in speaking to me about buying up the property....

Not shocked. Horizon had an outlet just south of me when I lived back north. It was a hole. They bought it from another company and it was really nice then. However, soon as they had it they didn't invest anything into it, raised rates, and stores left and it turned into a nice 3 building complex of for rent signs.

looks like they are going ahead after all.....from newsok.

"Developers of a $65 million factory outlet mall planned for west Oklahoma City say the project is alive and well, even as city officials have put promised improvements in the area on hold."

NewsOK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-outlet-mall-plans-on-track-despite-slumping-economy/article/3402390?custom_click=lead_story_title)

Having written the story, I'll add the caveat of I'll wait and see before believing it's on or off.