^

That was it! Thanks.


Can't wait to hear about the detailed plans for this project.

I can't upload pictures, but look at the Williamsburgh Savings Bank Tower in New York. It has a lot of similarities to First National.

^

Very cool!


Located in one of Brooklyn’s most famous landmarks, the Skylight One Hanson event space is composed of the Romanesque Beaux Arts Bank Hall and the Art Deco Vault. Throughout the restoration and redevelopment of the building, great care was taken to preserve the architectural prestige of its marble floors, carved teller stations, magnificent 63-foot vaulted ceiling and the iconic 40-foot mosaic of New York as a Dutch colony. At the same time, Magic Johnson converted the building to luxury loft condominiums in 2006–07, and the tower houses 176 apartments with 138 distinct floor plans, from 295 square foot studios to 3,263 square foot full-floor four-bedroom units. In 2008 CJ Follini and Noyack Medical Partners purchased the commercial half of the famed landmark.

https://blankslatepages.s3.amazonaws.com/williamsburgh-savings-bank-tower-6b79a77180e9ec3a7ca351ebe54641a2-1400871066-williamsburgh_savings_bank_tower.jpg

Well this is super cool. That roof top pool though, that is fantastic.

So am I the only one that isn't confident this will actually happen?

I mean, I've heard of "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" but we've been bait and switched about 10 times on FNC. I understand the current owner has a better track record but this is a property that seems to have lots of complications.

Would love to be proven wrong, but worst case scenario is they tear down a ton of buildings for parking and then all the good stuff gets left out.

So am I the only one that isn't confident this will actually happen?

I mean, I've heard of "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" but we've been bait and switched about 10 times on FNC. I understand the current owner has a better track record but this is a property that seems to have lots of complications.

Would love to be proven wrong, but worst case scenario is they tear down a ton of buildings for parking and then all the good stuff gets left out.

I feel a lot better about this than I would have if Stephen Goodman would have been the buyer. That really made me nervous. With this, anything could happen, but Gary Brooks has an excellent track record.

So am I the only one that isn't confident this will actually happen?

I mean, I've heard of "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" but we've been bait and switched about 10 times on FNC. I understand the current owner has a better track record but this is a property that seems to have lots of complications.

Would love to be proven wrong, but worst case scenario is they tear down a ton of buildings for parking and then all the good stuff gets left out.

I am a pessimist like you with regard to OKC ever completing (outside of Devon Tower), world class buildings either new build or refurbishment. I celebrate at ribbon cutting.

So am I the only one that isn't confident this will actually happen?

I mean, I've heard of "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" but we've been bait and switched about 10 times on FNC. I understand the current owner has a better track record but this is a property that seems to have lots of complications.

Would love to be proven wrong, but worst case scenario is they tear down a ton of buildings for parking and then all the good stuff gets left out.

Since this is the first time a reputable local group with a proven track record and a clear plan has taken over the building, I think there is reason to be more optimistic than ever before. On the other hand, the sky high price tag and history of development failures do make it tough to get too excited yet.

I am a pessimist like you with regard to OKC ever completing (outside of Devon Tower), world class buildings either new build or refurbishment. I celebrate at ribbon cutting.

You? A pessimist? No way......

So am I the only one that isn't confident this will actually happen?

I mean, I've heard of "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" but we've been bait and switched about 10 times on FNC. I understand the current owner has a better track record but this is a property that seems to have lots of complications.

Would love to be proven wrong, but worst case scenario is they tear down a ton of buildings for parking and then all the good stuff gets left out.

This is a completely different situation with the most respected of local developers leading the way and the City fully on board with creating a dedicated TIF just for FNC and likely helping to coordinate all types of other incentives.

I talked to Gary Brooks last night and he is the most humble, conservative person around but he's clearly excited about this but will approach it pragmatically and will never hesitate to seek help and advice when needed. He's also incredibly experienced and qualified.

Personally, I can tell you that there is no one else I'd rather see head this project and I completely trust it will happen and be done the right way.

Any updates on Golden Dragon's fate? I read earlier up the thread he was looking for another location, but never heard any updates on that. I don't know what I'll do without those delicious breakfast bagels.

Are you saying if we doubt Gary Brooks then we don't know Gary Brooks? Sorry, someone had to say it. Looking forward to seeing this place restored.

A couple of things I would like to see are the skywalk over Robinson removed, the underground tunnels sealed off, and the interior arcade removed. We are either going to bring retail to the sidewalk on Park, or we aren't, and it has to start with this project. If those things don't happen then just throw the Park Ave Retail Study in the trash can. Also, based on the location of the electrical vaults and the fact that they would lose at least 20' of retail space along Park, I don't see any way they make the parking garage accessible from there. Access will have to come off Broadway or the alley (or both). Finally, I didn't see the clock on the corner of Park and Robinson in the rendering so I hope they aren't planning to remove it.

Are you saying if we doubt Gary Brooks then we don't know Gary Brooks? Sorry, someone had to say it. Looking forward to seeing this place restored.

Haha. At least Gary Brooks has a track record. When Rainey Williams was announced as developer of the Stage Center site, few people had heard of him and he had no previous development experience to show that he was in fact capable of pulling that development off.



A couple of things I would like to see are the skywalk over Robinson removed, the underground tunnels sealed off, and the interior arcade removed. We are either going to bring retail to the sidewalk on Park, or we aren't, and it has to start with this project. If those things don't happen then just throw the Park Ave Retail Study in the trash can. Also, based on the location of the electrical vaults and the fact that they would lose at least 20' of retail space along Park, I don't see any way they make the parking garage accessible from there. Access will have to come off Broadway or the alley (or both). Finally, I didn't see the clock on the corner of Park and Robinson in the rendering so I hope they aren't planning to remove it.

Agree with this 100%.

OKC is not large or dense enough to support both an active underground and active street retail. It has to be one or the other. Of course, some cities have both but they are usually much larger and more densely populated.

Shutting the concourse and bringing the retail to the street will benefit everyone, and be the first step in creating a CBD here that isn't just M-F 8-5.

Very excited to see this! Was beginning to worry the same-old was going to persist with this block. Also excited to see that the design of the garage is at least interesting and doesn't even really look like a garage. I assume these will probably change some before it gets underway, or has all of this already been approved behind closed doors?

There are still lots of steps, including starting the process with the Downtown Design Review Committee which would also have to approve the demolition of the two newer sections.

In speaking with Gary Brooks, they honestly didn't know they were going to be the group awarded the right to put the property under contract until the day before it came out in the press. In fact, he said he had no degree of confidence they would win out until they were officially notified.

So, they have done schematic plans and pro formas and the like but they still have tons of work to do before they get to the final architectural plans.

They also have about 90 days to do more in-depth due diligence.

There are still lots of steps, including starting the process with the Downtown Design Review Committee which would also have to approve the demolition of the two newer sections.

In speaking with Gary Brooks, they honestly didn't know they were going to be the group awarded the right to put the property under contract until the day before it came out in the press. In fact, he said he had no degree of confidence they would win out until they were officially notified.

So, they have done schematic plans and pro formas and the like but they still have tons of work to do before they get to the final architectural plans.

They also have about 90 days to do more in-depth due diligence.

This development will probably happen, which is incredibly exciting. But I cannot bring myself to get emotionally invested in this project. Not yet. I want to be in a position of being excited at progress versus excitement at an announcement. For me, it just seems the right thing to do, but I bet I'm not the only one feeling this way.

It's likely to be a long process no matter how well this is all handled, with no real payoff for probably a couple of years.

There are still lots of steps, including starting the process with the Downtown Design Review Committee which would also have to approve the demolition of the two newer sections.

In speaking with Gary Brooks, they honestly didn't know they were going to be the group awarded the right to put the property under contract until the day before it came out in the press. In fact, he said he had no degree of confidence they would win out until they were officially notified.

So, they have done schematic plans and pro formas and the like but they still have tons of work to do before they get to the final architectural plans.

They also have about 90 days to do more in-depth due diligence.

Interesting, thanks for the info!

Haha. At least Gary Brooks has a track record. When Rainey Williams was announced as developer of the Stage Center site, few people had heard of him and he had no previous development experience to show that he was in fact capable of pulling that development off.



Agree with this 100%.

OKC is not large or dense enough to support both an active underground and active street retail. It has to be one or the other. Of course, some cities have both but they are usually much larger and more densely populated.

Shutting the concourse and bringing the retail to the street will benefit everyone, and be the first step in creating a CBD here that isn't just M-F 8-5.

Coming from someone that actually works downtown on a daily basis, I can tell you that the effect of the underground on street level foot traffic is negligible except in cases of bad weather or extreme cold. It will not be the underground hindering retail. The biggest hindrances are the fact that there is very little retail in general, lack of residents, and lack of hotel guests in the CBD. Right now too few people are in the CBD on a 24/7 basis and it really isn't a destination that draws people that don't live here outside of Thunder games (and I guess the MBG to a point). I think the First National conversion along with any other associated restaurants/bars will go a long way toward ensuring successful retail on Park.

Marathon makeover: First National Center renovation will be long, expensive | The Journal Record (http://journalrecord.com/2016/01/14/marathon-makeover-first-national-center-renovation-will-be-long-expensivereal-estate/)

Marathon makeover: First National Center renovation will be long, expensive
By: Molly M. Fleming The Journal Record January 14, 2016

OKLAHOMA CITY – Development teams that wanted to renovate the First National Center needed to present a plan in their initial proposals. Price Edwards & Co. Vice President Jim Parrack and his team eliminated those proposals that didn’t have an exact vision for the complex, Parrack said.

“Most of the offers had a fairly consistent theme,” he said. “Most of them had some type of hotel and housing component. There were a few with office. But there was nothing like a casino. There was nothing odd.”

Price Edwards office brokers Cordell Brown and Craig Tucker marketed the building once a court appointed Parrack as receiver. The team posted the project on commercial real estate websites and the Price Edwards site, and personally reached out to 50 to 60 development teams who often renovate old large buildings nationwide.

The marketing material did not include information about any tax increment financing package the city is expected to offer to the developer, but Parrack said they verbally discussed it with interested parties.

Fifteen to 20 companies were firmly attracted. They were asked to send in financial capabilities, history in closing on buildings and work on similar projects. Six offers were returned. Brown, Parrack and Tucker checked out the prospects’ financial capabilities, including interviewing lenders and the partners. The six offers were pared to three, and those developers were asked to send their best and final offers.

A team led by Oklahoma City-based developer Gary Brooks and Texas contractor and developer Charlie Nicholas was the last group standing. They will buy the 1-million-square-foot building for $23 million. The contract was signed Jan. 11, and they have a 90-day due diligence period. If they find something that dismays them, they can end the contract, Parrack said.

“Gary’s been in and he’s looked around,” he said. “I don’t expect to have any problems.”

Brooks has considered purchasing the building previously, but he never felt he would reach an end deal with Leon Neman, one of the building’s alleged owners. Brooks said he changed his mind when the center went into receivership.

“At least now, this building can be bought with a clean title,” he said. “That was the game changer.”

The question of the ownership of the property has led to a long legal battle. U.S. District Court Judge Stephen P. Friot has ruled that the sale can move ahead, and the proceeds will be distributed after settling those issues.

Brooks said he expects to spend more than $200 million transforming the center into a hotel and apartment structure. He’s still working out the numbers for each part. The hotel and apartments will be in the main, original tower. He also plans to transform the concourse area.

“Our commitment first is to focus on the retail component,” he said.

The second focus will be to restore the former banking lobby on the second floor.

“That room is extremely important,” he said. “It’s one of the things that ignites the passion of my team. We’re spending a lot of time talking to people around the country who have done similar renovations and trying to learn from them.”

He said he is considering taking down the connected buildings to the east and adding a parking structure.

“We’re going to explore every option now that we have it under control,” he said. “I don’t ever want to look up and feel like we missed an opportunity.”

Brooks said the possible TIF agreement, as well as potential state and federal historic tax credits, will be essential to the building redevelopment. A $40 million TIF district will go before the City Council in February.

Brooks expects to restore as much of the building as financially responsible, on the interior and exterior.

“It’s a marathon, not a sprint,” he said.

Newmark Grubb Levy Strange Beffort Vice President Mark Beffort said it’s refreshing that a local developer is taking on the project, even though it won’t be easy.
“I really believe that Gary and Charlie have the desire to do it right,” Beffort said. “But don’t fool yourself – this is a time-consuming and long project. This is not for the faint of heart. It’s a very financially taxing project.”

Beffort knows firsthand the challenge with restoring an old office building. His firm bought City Place tower in 2008 and is only 65 percent complete with the redevelopment. However, during that time it had tenants, so there’s been a revenue stream.

First National is less than 10 percent occupied, and the existing tenants are expected to move out in 90 days.

“It’s a very tedious, long project,” Beffort said. “But I do believe at the end of the day, they’ll be rewarded for their efforts.”

He said he thinks the hotel and high-rise apartment concept will be successful, even if it’s not finished for another five years. He said less than 1 percent of the population of the Oklahoma City area lives downtown, and 5 percent has expressed interest in being in the area.

“They’ll put 150 to 200 units on the marketplace, so absolutely it will be successful,” Beffort said.

Hotel Broker One Chief Operating Officer Peter Holmes isn’t convinced the hotel component could have the same success. He said the building’s complex structure – with a second-floor lobby and no direct connection to the rooms – is something people expect in larger cities.

“There will be other hotels in the market that will be easier to get in and out of,” he said. “I don’t see, with the location combined with the style of hotel, that it would be more desirable than what’s coming online.”

In 2014, luxury hotels had some of the largest financial growth nationwide, according to STR data reports. But Holmes said even a luxury hotel in the center wouldn’t work, especially with competition from existing hotels such as the Hilton Skirvin, the Colcord and the Ambassador.

In addition, an expensive renovation will create high room costs. He said converting office buildings into hotels is one of the most challenging projects. This one is even harder because of its size. In addition, the 1930s building has to be converted with modern hotel amenities.

Holmes said he estimates $250,000 spent on each room, which will create a $300 room rate, which is not seen anywhere in the city.

“It’s going to be a very, very difficult deal,” Holmes said. “Of the 17 or so (hotels in development) out there, it’s the one that I’ve considered the most difficult.”

Brooks said based on his team’s early pro forma, he expects the entire project will be a financial success.

Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority Executive Director Cathy O’Connor said having Brooks, who has developed Urban Renewal projects in the past, will make it easier to work out the incentives package. She said that work has given him experience to take on this project.

“We’re very glad to work with Gary on this project,” she said.

I don't see this competing with the other hotels coming on the market at all. The FNC hotel will be a unique, high-end boutique hotel that will cater to a specific clientele.

Any ideas on what kind of flag might be possible? Ritz-Carlton would be a dream come true and if there is one hotel in OKC that could pull it off, my guess is it would be this. You usually don't see them in smaller markets though. Would Four Seasons maybe work?

I could see a Fairmont (they love older buildings), Grand Hyatt or a JW Marriott. I am curious what kind of work they would do with the city to know what the flag on the convention hotel would be.

I'm sure Brooks & Co. have already talked to hotel operators and have a basic pro forma of how the hotel portion would cash flow.

There will be a lot of public assistance which will help drive down the cost of renovation and keep room rates reasonable.

"A couple of things I would like to see are the skywalk over Robinson removed, the underground tunnels sealed off, and the interior arcade removed. "

This is a horrible idea. There are about 13 days a year here where the weather makes walking outside a pleasant experience. The FNC skywalk, arcade, and tunnels connect the buildings on the west side like the devon tower, leadership square, Oklahoma tower and the courthouse with the buildings on the east side like the chase building, century center, skirvin, and the cox center.

What is Cafe 7's plan?

What is Cafe 7's plan?

I would like to know this as well. This place is always packed at lunch and it is such a great space.

I would like to know this as well. This place is always packed at lunch and it is such a great space.

Try giving them a courtesy call. Many of us who frequent the Golden Dragon in the FNC have the same concerns.

I know there won't be many businesses displaced but is there enough occupancy downtown to absorb them?

I know there won't be many businesses displaced but is there enough occupancy downtown to absorb them?

My guess is that much will depend on where they relocate (temporary or permanent).

My hope is that when they finish with FNC that they do have space to bring many of these tenants back (doubtful). IIRC some have established themselves across the street @ the Robinson Renaissance building.

Wherever the Golden Dragon relocates, I'll be there. May signal the end for many of the restaurants that occupied FNC.

Yeah, really concerned about Golden Dragon. I think Cafe 7 will find a home somewhere (what about The Library space in Robinson Renaissance?), but not sure if Ken at GD could absorb the costs associated with moving that place, and not sure where there is a space that might fit.

what about other streetfronts already in existence? This could be a golden pop for other building a to get ground floor life..

I would hope the city, dt okc, and the alliance would be working very hard to transition businesses impacted while creating life elsewhere in downtown. I honestly have everyone from FNC to just locate inside Robinson renaissance when we have a golden chance MOW for a huge injection of visible street retail, restaurants, and the others that exist in FNC.

Other than what currently exists in FNC - which will almost certainly be remodeled or in the case of the center section be demolished and replaced by new retail space on the ground floor of the new parking structure - there is currently virtually zero unoccupied street-level space on Park Avenue.

The NW corner of Oklahoma Tower is un-occupied, but P180 has that area torn up right now. That spot isn't big enough for a restaurant either.

"A couple of things I would like to see are the skywalk over Robinson removed, the underground tunnels sealed off, and the interior arcade removed. "

This is a horrible idea. There are about 13 days a year here where the weather makes walking outside a pleasant experience. The FNC skywalk, arcade, and tunnels connect the buildings on the west side like the devon tower, leadership square, Oklahoma tower and the courthouse with the buildings on the east side like the chase building, century center, skirvin, and the cox center.

Really? Only 13. You really believe that? OKC has as much or more good days for a walk outside than many other cities in the nation. Skywalks and tunnels reduce the number of people on the streets. We need people walking on the streets to give the city a sense of life. We need some hustle and bustle on the street level.

Yeah, we've gotta believe in ourselves, and quit handicapping our own success with skywalks and undergrounds to every garage. We're a warm weather city. We should have people outside, everywhere.

Really? Only 13. You really believe that? OKC has as much or more good days for a walk outside than many other cities in the nation. Skywalks and tunnels reduce the number of people on the streets. We need people walking on the streets to give the city a sense of life. We need some hustle and bustle on the street level.

OKC has a climate of extremes. Winters can be brutally cold, especially with the strong north wind that usually accompanies cold weather here. Springs are rainy and stormy, with torrential downpours accompanied by strong winds as opposed to the gentle, soaking rains they get on the east coast. Summers are usually brutally hot. There are really only a few months out of the year where the weather is consistently pleasant. OKC's climate is definitely not a selling point of this area. With that said, I don't believe the weather is the primary reason the streets of the CBD are so dead. The reason is people don't have any reason to walk on the streets. The underground and skywalks connect most of the buildings and most of the businesses are concentrated in the underground. If they were on the street, you would see a lot more street activity, regardless of the weather. The underground, if it even exists, should only be a secondary route during inclement weather and most of the activity should be concentrated at the streets. The city isn't currently large or dense enough for both to thrive.

I also enjoy the underground. I don't see it being a deterrent to retail at all. I have been downtown since the late 1980's and use the underground pretty much every day, especially in the winter. It actually seems to drive traffic to the first national hallway. It offers a great way to get around when it is cold, rainy or even really hot. Since I wear a suit it makes walking around in the hottest part of the year unpleasant as well. I like to take a walk during the day and one lap through first national and the underground is nearly a half a mile. Did it today after lunch.

The underground and skywalks connect most of the buildings and most of the businesses are concentrated in the underground. If they were on the street, you would see a lot more street activity, regardless of the weather.

Have you been in the underground recently?

Oklahoma City's Underground, AKA The Conncourse (http://okc.about.com/od/oklahomacityglossary/g/conncourse.htm)


What's down there?

Today, the Underground is managed by Downtown OKC Inc and is essentially just a walking area. At one time, the tunnels contained many shops and restaurants, but that isn't really the case anymore, though you can occasionally find art exhibits and other special events. For example, each February Oklahoma City Riversport hosts the RUNderground 5k, in conjunction with the popular Bart & Nadia Sports & Health Festival

The underground and skywalks connect most of the buildings and most of the businesses are concentrated in the underground. If they were on the street, you would see a lot more street activity, regardless of the weather.

Have you been in the underground recently?

Oklahoma City's Underground, AKA The Conncourse (http://okc.about.com/od/oklahomacityglossary/g/conncourse.htm)


What's down there?

Today, the Underground is managed by Downtown OKC Inc and is essentially just a walking area. At one time, the tunnels contained many shops and restaurants, but that isn't really the case anymore, though you can occasionally find art exhibits and other special events. For example, each February Oklahoma City Riversport hosts the RUNderground 5k, in conjunction with the popular Bart & Nadia Sports & Health Festival

^^^ I can verify this, wife used to walk laps there during lunch when she was still employed downtown, and the Post Office and China Chef were about the only things she went to there...

I stand by my statement that the lack of street life in the CBD and even Bricktown has much more to do with the lack of permanent residents than the option to walk underground or above ground from a few buildings. Look at any other city with a lack of full time residential options downtown and the lack of street life is similar. Off the top of my head, Tulsa's sidewalks look completely dead during the day as well as at night and they don't have an expansive tunnel system. It does have a ton of ground floor retail space and pedestrian friendly areas, but lacks residential (for now).

Besides every time I've been in the Underground (during normal weather conditions), I don't see that many people down there. Where are all the people that it is supposedly sucking away from the streets? A tunnel system may not be conducive to street life, but I don't think it is as big of hinderance is it is being made out to be.

I stand by my statement that the lack of street life in the CBD and even Bricktown has much more to do with the lack of permanent residents than the option to walk underground or above ground from a few buildings. Look at any other city with a lack of full time residential options downtown and the lack of street life is similar. Off the top of my head, Tulsa's sidewalks look completely dead during the day as well as at night and they don't have an expansive tunnel system. It does have a ton of ground floor retail space and pedestrian friendly areas, but lacks residential (for now).

Besides every time I've been in the Underground (during normal weather conditions), I don't see that many people down there. Where are all the people that it is supposedly sucking away from the streets? A tunnel system may not be conducive to street life, but I don't think it is as big of hinderance is it is being made out to be.

I tend to agree with Phi. We just don't have the concentration of residents yet.

I stand by my statement that the lack of street life in the CBD and even Bricktown has much more to do with the lack of permanent residents than the option to walk underground or above ground from a few buildings. Look at any other city with a lack of full time residential options downtown and the lack of street life is similar. Off the top of my head, Tulsa's sidewalks look completely dead during the day as well as at night and they don't have an expansive tunnel system. It does have a ton of ground floor retail space and pedestrian friendly areas, but lacks residential (for now).

Besides every time I've been in the Underground (during normal weather conditions), I don't see that many people down there. Where are all the people that it is supposedly sucking away from the streets? A tunnel system may not be conducive to street life, but I don't think it is as big of hinderance is it is being made out to be.

Yeah. Skywalks and the underground have very little affect on the street life. I support those things and think they need to be expanded as the downtown grows actually.

People should have the option and forcing them to walk on the street especially during inclement weather is not right.

I tend to agree with Phi. We just don't have the concentration of residents yet.

To expand on that, the Underground closes at 8:00 PM and many buildings with public access to the tunnels close prior to that. Why isn't there much street life after that time? Too few people with too few places to go (or at least open places). The same can be said for parts of Bricktown outside of Thursday night through early Sunday morning.

You also can't assume that everyone in the tunnels -- which I agree is usually a low number -- would necessarily be on the street otherwise.

On the especially bad days that tend to drive people to the Underground, I'm sure most would just stay in their building or very close by. You don't have to walk very far from anywhere in the CBD to find a lunch option or ATM.

You also can't assume that everyone in the tunnels -- which I agree is usually a low number -- would necessarily be on the street otherwise.

On the especially bad days that tend to drive people to the Underground, I'm sure most would just stay in their building or very close by. You don't have to walk very far from anywhere in the CBD to find a lunch option or ATM.

That's true as well, I just don't like the underground being used as the end all excuse for our lack of daily street life in the CBD, there are a lot of other factors at play.

I definitely don't think the Underground is the only reason for the lack of street activity. Not having very many permanent residents in the CBD contributes greatly and First National Center, if completed and converted to housing, will be a huge step in the right direction. However, if the primary way to get to the businesses is through the concourse, then there won't be as much street activity despite how many people are living in the CBD. To get active streets, there will need to be both people AND businesses for them to walk to with streetfront entrances.

However, if the primary way to get to the businesses is through the concourse, then there won't be as much street activity despite how many people are living in the CBD. To get active streets, there will need to be both people AND businesses for them to walk to with streetfront entrances.

Why would it be the primary way to get to the businesses?

43 restaurants and retailers have an entrance on the Conncourse, but not to the sidewalk. How much more proof do you need? The retailers follow their customers. Close the Conncourse and those 43 businesses reorientate their space to the street.

Places much warmer, much colder, much wetter, much drier, more windy, more humid, more everything AND less everything around the world seem to be chalk full of citizens who aren't as 'delicate' as the average OKCitian appears to be. How the hell were most of you spawned from the people who rode covered wagons across the Plains?

43 restaurants and retailers have an entrance on the Conncourse, but not to the sidewalk. How much more proof do you need? The retailers follow their customers. Close the Conncourse and those 43 businesses reorientate their space to the street.

Places much warmer, much colder, much wetter, much drier, more windy, more humid, more everything AND less everything around the world seem to be chalk full of citizens who aren't as 'delicate' as the average OKCitian appears to be. How the hell were most of you spawned from the people who rode covered wagons across the Plains?

Seriously, Kerry? Please provide evidence that there are 43 restaurants and retailers that have an entrance on the Concourse. They must be very well hidden from sight. I can believe that they may not have sidewalk entrances, but that seems a little suspect.

Have you ever been to the massive underground shopping and dining areas in Montreal? It's quite easy to never have to go onto the sidewalks there and that evolved because of weather conditions in winter.

Have you ever been to the massive underground shopping and dining areas in Montreal? It's quite easy to never have to go onto the sidewalks there and that evolved because of weather conditions in winter.

It's hard to compare a major metropolitan city with a dense urban core like Montreal to OKC. Get 150,000 people living within two miles of FNC and yes, the city could support an amazing, active concourse as well as street retail and restaurants.

It's hard to compare a major metropolitan city with a dense urban core like Montreal to OKC. Get 150,000 people living within two miles of FNC and yes, the city could support an amazing, active concourse as well as street retail and restaurants.

No, it's not hard to compare. I'm referring to a reason to have the underground retail and restaurants and that reason is valid in either city. Kerry is basically saying that there should never be any underground tunnels anywhere I'm not saying I support massive retail and shopping in the concourse in OKC, I'm just saying it has basically nothing to do with lack of sidewalk traffic here because of the lack of such.

No, it's not hard to compare.

It's comparing apples and oranges. When you have 150,000 people living within two miles of FNC or heck, even 60,000, then that comparison becomes more valid. Today, there aren't enough people downtown and thus not enough business activity to support both an active concourse and an active sidewalk. It will have to be one or the other.

It's comparing apples and oranges. When you have 150,000 people living within two miles of FNC or heck, even 60,000, then that comparison becomes more valid. Today, there aren't enough people downtown and thus not enough business activity to support both an active concourse and an active sidewalk. It will have to be one or the other.

You are totally overlooking my point. We have an active concourse only because it's foot traffic. (and I'm not sure it's really that active.) It's not because there is retail or restaurants there to attract the traffic. I spent several days in downtown Montreal last year and I seriously doubt that there are even as many as 60,000 people living with 2 miles.

43 restaurants and retailers have an entrance on the Conncourse, but not to the sidewalk. How much more proof do you need? The retailers follow their customers. Close the Conncourse and those 43 businesses reorientate their space to the street.

Places much warmer, much colder, much wetter, much drier, more windy, more humid, more everything AND less everything around the world seem to be chalk full of citizens who aren't as 'delicate' as the average OKCitian appears to be. How the hell were most of you spawned from the people who rode covered wagons across the Plains?

There is a difference between being "delicate" and not wanting to destroy a network of recently renovated tunnels to fix a problem that they aren't the primary or even secondary cause of. Few here are advocating for expansion of the system or the expansion of retail down there.

43 restaurants and retailers have an entrance on the Conncourse, but not to the sidewalk. How much more proof do you need? The retailers follow their customers. Close the Conncourse and those 43 businesses reorientate their space to the street.

Places much warmer, much colder, much wetter, much drier, more windy, more humid, more everything AND less everything around the world seem to be chalk full of citizens who aren't as 'delicate' as the average OKCitian appears to be. How the hell were most of you spawned from the people who rode covered wagons across the Plains?
So you are saying the concourse is a vibrant active walking area that encourages a bunch of local businesses? And lots of people must find it very walkable? Sounds pretty urban. But, you are saying that it is bad, not because it isn't walkable, but because it isn't walkable in the place you want?

I think you way overstate its impact and way oversimplify .... As usual. Dogma over facts and reason. Just because people want to walk a quarter mile in a tunnel vs a quarter mile at street level doesn't make them stupid or lazy. But if you feel better demeaning anyone who doesn't agree, so be it.

Personally, I don't care to ever go to the concourse and agree that it is way more desirable to have a lovely, inviting, active outdoor area, but I don't happen to think those that don't agree are stupid and lazy.

Btw, as for you fact of 43 restaurants, etc., according to a September article in About Travel: Today, the Underground is managed by Downtown OKC Inc and is essentially just a walking area. At one time, the tunnels contained many shops and restaurants, but that isn't really the case anymore, though you can occasionally find art exhibits and other special events. For example, each February Oklahoma City Riversport hosts the RUNderground 5k, in conjunction with the popular Bart & Nadia Sports & Health Festival.

43 restaurants and retailers have an entrance on the Conncourse, but not to the sidewalk. How much more proof do you need? The retailers follow their customers. Close the Conncourse and those 43 businesses reorientate their space to the street.

Places much warmer, much colder, much wetter, much drier, more windy, more humid, more everything AND less everything around the world seem to be chalk full of citizens who aren't as 'delicate' as the average OKCitian appears to be. How the hell were most of you spawned from the people who rode covered wagons across the Plains?

+1

I stand by my statement that the lack of street life in the CBD and even Bricktown has much more to do with the lack of permanent residents than the option to walk underground or above ground from a few buildings.Something that many of us who were there at the time have forgotten, and possibly younger thereticians never knew, about the CBD prior to Urban Renewal is that it was almost 50% composed of residential facilities! For instance, the mid-rise Herskowitz Building on the NE corner of Broadway and Grand (now Sheridan) had retail on the ground level but the other eight (as I recall) stories were all apartments and usually fully occupied by long-term residents.

The same was true of many other buildings in the area. Quite a few folk lived in the hotels full-time, not just as transients. And those hotels weren't confined to the big names such as Skirvin and Biltmore. Former Gov. Alfalfa Bill Murray lived in the Bristol at NW 2 and Broadway. The 2-story retail on the east side of Broadway between NW 2 and NW 3 almost all had tenement-level apartments on their second floors. So did buildings on NW 3 ttoward Robinson, and a number of places along Main Street.

This all went away as "blight" a few years later, and to date none of it except for high-end housing has been restored. Nobody even seems to want to restore the flop-houses and tenements that marked "downtown" in the 40s and 50s, but it was a definite part of what gave the area its vitality. Low-end workers without private transportation other than their feet require all sorts of service establishments -- cafes, bars, entertainment -- and without them, downtown died. Can we bring it back to life without them? I doubt it....

Just an FYI ... if there are only 13 decent weather days in OKC in a year, we now only have 12 left. Today was a right fair day.