This conversation is like a bad case of herpes. It just keeps on popping back up.

Back to topic...

All I know is that all of us - or many of us, at least - feel an almost personal connection to First National. The excitement of the announcement was accompanied with a huge sigh of relief. Then the news that came out later about the developer and the Cleveland project made most of us slap our heads with an almost cruel sense of Déjà vu. It's been confusing for all of us and you can bet it is for Pete, for Steve, for all who care about this building. But one thing we are all united on - we want the absolute best for this grand building with no more games. We should cut some slack on the coverage from Pete, Steve, wherever...it's just all very confusing.

Back to topic...

All I know is that all of us - or many of us, at least - feel an almost personal connection to First National. The excitement of the announcement was accompanied with a huge sigh of relief. Then the news that came out later about the developer and the Cleveland project made most of us slap our heads with an almost cruel sense of Déjà vu. It's been confusing for all of us and you can bet it is for Pete, for Steve, for all who care about this building. But one thing we are all united on - we want the absolute best for this grand building with no more games. We should cut some slack on the coverage from Pete, Steve, wherever...it's just all very confusing.

Well said! Hoping for the best and everyone knows it's going to be a long road.

As much as downtown has been raised up and we should as much as possible let market conditions be the driving force behind development, First National is a unique case.

Not only because of it's history, beauty and prominence but because there is going to be a ton of tax dollars involved.

With the benefit of hindsight, it seems the City should have been proactive in trying to obtain it, then have some measure of control.

As it is now, we are at the mercy of whoever happens to own it and that's bad enough, but when you start talking about tens of millions of public funds -- and maybe even over a hundred million -- then you want to be sure this benefits the community as much as possible and is done right.

^^^^^^^^
Totally agree. I think it is as important and as iconic (and nearly as threatened) as the Skirvin was when the City decided to pull out all of the stops to make things work. You can even draw some parallels between various owner groups of both properties promising the moon and then being revealed to be shady flim-flam men. The only difference between the situations is that market conditions today are generally better.

Good grief, could we just start a "bash on the Oklahoman" thread, a "bash on Brianna" thread and a "bash on Steve" thread and keep such posts in there? It seems like every thread on this board these days devolves into a referendum on their respective coverage. It is getting tiring.

I'm not even making this post to defend their coverage; I'm just saying that I don't want to read a play-by-play on it in EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD.
Amen!

^^^^^^^^
Totally agree. I think it is as important and as iconic (and nearly as threatened) as the Skirvin was when the City decided to pull out all of the stops to make things work. You can even draw some parallels between various owner groups of both properties promising the moon and then being revealed to be shady flim-flam men. The only difference between the situations is that market conditions today are generally better.

Right, and the City at least controlled the Skirvin so their investment was protected.

The City has zero control here at all and you can be sure tons of public money will be involved.

I am frustrated by how much building mass in the very center of our downtown is proposed to be demolished in this project for a HUGE parking garage. Particularly in lieu that we successfully fought for and won front door streetcar service for First National on Robinson.

Public Works really didn't want us on Robinson due to the quantity of utility conflicts.

Right, and the City at least controlled the Skirvin so their investment was protected.

The City has zero control here at all and you can be sure tons of public money will be involved.

Such a disconnect here. There are things happening behind closed doors with people who speak with authority when, in fact, they have none. If the amount of public money is as extensive as expected, we need to have complete transparency and not handle this deal at the local level like Obama and others are doing with the trade bill. Secrecy until everything is all wrapped up and then simply have public input "for show." A lot of things to be nervous about with this deal. Just wishing and hoping that things work out and we get answers - sooner rather than later. And for the city, they surely should be involved. Especially, those representing us on the Council. They are not simply a rubber-stamp for the private interests of the few. They have every right to wonder what's going on. We have, in many respects, a "shadow government" in this city that lacks any input from the public at large. Sometimes even kept secret from members from our own representative body at city hall. That can stop right here, right now with this project. Too much at stake.

I am frustrated by how much building mass in the very center of our downtown is proposed to be demolished in this project for a HUGE parking garage. Particularly in lieu that we successfully fought for and won front door streetcar service for First National on Robinson.

Public Works really didn't want us on Robinson due to the quantity of utility conflicts.

This is a good point that I haven't been at ease with all along. I would rather there be some creative way to re-marry FNC to the Main Street garage. What a disservice was done when those two things were split apart. Honestly, you can go back to that move and blame it for a lot of the ongoing ownership/development issues around FNC. I hate crying over spilled milk, but that is something you would sure change if you could time-travel.

I am frustrated by how much building mass in the very center of our downtown is proposed to be demolished in this project for a HUGE parking garage. Particularly in lieu that we successfully fought for and won front door streetcar service for First National on Robinson.

Public Works really didn't want us on Robinson due to the quantity of utility conflicts.

547,000 square feet of office space will be removed! That is more than half the entire complex.

I knew some of it would have to go but this seems excessive.

They don't need 440 parking spaces for their own use... Most the hotel guests will not have cars and we are only talking about 125 living units plus a small amount of office space.

It seems every new development downtown wants to overbuild parking.

I am frustrated by how much building mass in the very center of our downtown is proposed to be demolished in this project for a HUGE parking garage. Particularly in lieu that we successfully fought for and won front door streetcar service for First National on Robinson.

Public Works really didn't want us on Robinson due to the quantity of utility conflicts.

The only benefit I could possibly see is that it could drive office or residential development, that could've been housed in those buildings, into the surface parking and grass lots around the CBD as well as Core to Shore, Film Row, Midtown, etc. However, I would be completely against it if some form of retail is not retained at the ground level.

BTW, to put 547,000 square feet that will be demolished into perspective:

Chase Tower: 514,000 SF
Oklahoma Tower: 568,000 SF

547,000 alone would be the 4th largest office building downtown, behind Devon, Leadership Square and just barely behind OK Tower.

This is a good point that I haven't been at ease with all along. I would rather there be some creative way to re-marry FNC to the Main Street garage. What a disservice was done when those two things were split apart. Honestly, you can go back to that move and blame it for a lot of the ongoing ownership/development issues around FNC. I hate crying over spilled milk, but that is something you would sure change if you could time-travel.

Very good point and I agree. You are also right about crying over spilled milk, but then how far would we have to go back? I remember the bustling First National of the sixties and still cry over that. But these later issues? Yes, it's all hindsight 20/20 stuff, but didn't have to be. It's clear we all have concerns about this part of the proposal. If huge sums of public money is involved, it is my opinion that we should be heard sooner rather than later, and not accept the unacceptable for fear of jettisoning the project. This has to be done right. Period.

It is my opinion that we should be heard sooner rather than later, and not accept the unacceptable for fear of jettisoning the project. This has to be done right. Period.

I agree. The status quo would be better than what could be the worst-case scenario with the ongoing deal. Imagine a company that would evict all remaining tenants, demolishes the 547,000 sq feet of office space, and then goes TEEMCO. Imagine the impact that would have on downtown. I am not saying I think that will happen, but worst case scenarios have to be considered especially when dealing with a questionable developer who comes in with a "too good to be true" offer (think Gold Dome, possibly Clayco).

I would feel a lot better about this if...

A) There was some transparency
B) The company was a little more reputable

BTW, to put 547,000 square feet that will be demolished into perspective:

Chase Tower: 514,000 SF
Oklahoma Tower: 568,000 SF

547,000 alone would be the 4th largest office building downtown, behind Devon, Leadership Square and just barely behind OK Tower.

Hypothetically, before the sale happened, would it have been possible for the City to purchase FNC and issue a RFP? And if so, what would have held them back from doing so (high price tag?)?

Hypothetically, before the sale happened, would it have been possible for the City to purchase FNC and issue a RFP? And if so, what would have held them back from doing so (high price tag?)?

They could have bid on it like anyone else or used eminent domain, although the latter is tricky when it comes time to flip the property to a private developer.

Still, it could have been done. Still could be, for that mater, although I don't think that is being considered.

Is the prospect of the city getting involved being discussed anywhere other than on OKCTalk?

Not in terms of the City actually owning the property, as far as I know.

But the City is going to certainly be investing heavily in this development.

I just hope the parking garage does a good job of hiding the fact that it is a parking garage.

I guess there will be another demolition approval process, a DDRC hearing, and probably a TIF hearing before the TIF board.

While the mid-block and easternmost buildings areb't exactly Class A office space, their occupancy over the years has helped make Park and Robinson truly the most urbane and pedestrian oriented space in all of Oklahoma City.

We are excited to pierce that intersection with streetcar to help further densify the area and enable even more pedestrian mobilty.

The proposed parking garage appears excessive.

I guess there will be another demolition approval process, a DDRC hearing, and probably a TIF hearing before the TIF board.

While the mid-block and easternmost buildings areb't exactly Class A office space, their occupancy over the years has helped make Park and Robinson truly the most urbane and pedestrian oriented space in all of Oklahoma City.

We are excited to pierce that intersection with streetcar to help further densify the area and enable even more pedestrian mobilty.

The proposed parking garage appears excessive.

Parking is badly needed and welcome in the CBD

I just hope the parking garage does a good job of hiding the fact that it is a parking garage.

I agree.

Parking is badly needed and welcome in the CBD

Skin garages with usable space then. Really Park Ave is the only true urban "street wall" left. Or... use streetcar to ride in. This particular garage is gargantuan in massing in relationship the property to be occupied.

Parking is badly needed and welcome in the CBD

By some.

By some.

Yes. The vast majority of those who fill the office buildings. I share your hope the new downtown housing and offices changes this.

Skin garages with usable space then. Really Park Ave is the only true urban "street wall" left. Or... use streetcar to ride in. This particular garage is gargantuan in massing in relationship the property to be occupied.

Every time I walk Park Ave. on that little strip a lot of cognitive dissonance is at play.

Honestly the more I think about it the more there should be some effort put into reuniting Main Street Garage and First National Center. I don't disagree that there is some more structured parking needed (and thoughtfully placed) in the CBD, but question if this is the correct location. It is only being driven by the need to provide parking to FNC, not the overall need in downtown.

Besides my concern about the loss of retail frontage on a street that is being positioned as THE retail street in the CBD, I'm also concerned about all of those spaces emptying at 5 PM onto that narrow little street with limited egress at each end. I smell gridlock, and could see traffic engineers using it as an excuse to revert to one way streets around this block, which would be hugely detrimental to its walkable nature.

I'd rather see a parking structure (not affiliated with FNC) be built somewhere bordering/on Sandridge/Kerr Park, and FNC ownership of Main Street Gararge.

I have to give you props.

You tell us you are busting your butt trying to get info about FNC, so you come to OKCtalk to find some (obviously if you are posting here in this thread). Good choice!

Seriously though, we know you work hard & we realize you are hog tied by your employer. OKCtalk almost always have the scoop before what you are allowed to release, but you always have details that OKCtalk doesn't when you finally do print your articles. I think most of us here read basically all of your articles about OKC developments, so I wouldn't say we think you are worthless either. I think we all even enjoy most of what you write & research. A lot of us still feel ill will from when you were bashing this site a couple months ago. I appreciate you not doing it anymore, but you never apologized for it so a bit of the ill will remains.

Keep doing what you do for OKC, its really good for the city. Seriously.


That is the most back handed compliment I've had all week. Bye.

See, this is my problem with Steve. Everyone knows there are different dynamics at play for both Steve and Pete. It's not a secret and it's not really even something that anyone should be ashamed of. Yet, even after a very well worded and very fair post, Steve shows that he has possibly the thinnest skin of any person I've ever known.

There is absolutely no reason why both Pete and Steve's information and sources couldn't be enjoyed in tandem by anyone that is interested. It's not the limitations of the job, shortcomings of the medium, or opinion of your employer that makes me not want to read your articles. It's your reaction to any little criticism and the way you handle yourself that now has me not wanting to read what you write. Just for the record.

Honest question, if they retain the east portion of the building for office or other use, with the center portion offering a parking for all of that plus the main tower?

Honestly the more I think about it the more there should be some effort put into reuniting Main Street Garage and First National Center. I don't disagree that there is some more structured parking needed (and thoughtfully placed) in the CBD, but question if this is the correct location. It is only being driven by the need to provide parking to FNC, not the overall need in downtown.

Besides my concern about the loss of retail frontage on a street that is being positioned as THE retail street in the CBD, I'm also concerned about all of those spaces emptying at 5 PM onto that narrow little street with limited egress at each end. I smell gridlock, and could see traffic engineers using it as an excuse to revert to one way streets around this block, which would be hugely detrimental to its walkable nature.

I'd rather see a parking structure (not affiliated with FNC) be built somewhere bordering/on Sandridge/Kerr Park, and FNC ownership of Main Street Gararge.

Why would one-way streets be detrimental to walkable nature?

Considering NYC is a walkable city and look at their streets

I think one streets would make a city more walkable (you only have to look in one direction to cross)

Just chalk it up to another failure of Project -180

I think one streets would make a city more walkable (you only have to look in one direction to cross)

Just chalk it up to another failure of Project -180

People drive faster on one way streets. Chalk it up as a success of Project 180.

Why would one-way streets be detrimental to walkable nature?

Click on any of the links herein: Google: walkability + one way streets (https://www.google.com/search?q=walkability+one+way+streets&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS590US590&oq=walkability+o&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l2&sourceid=chrome-mobile&espv=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en-US) . Watch Jeff Speck's Ted Talk. Read Walkable City. One-way streets are car-centric and don't consider the pedestrian in the least. Simply put, By design they encourage faster driving. They are the antithesis of walkability.

And part of Project 180 included conversion of one-ways to two ways, specifically to enhance walkability. P180 has plenty of failings, but a lack of conversions of two-ways to one-ways is NOT one of them.

Walkability is a more complex topic than it sounds like on the surface. There are many ingredients besides a serviceable sidewalk. If anyone is interested In reading Jeff Speck's 2009 walkability analysis and recommendations for downtown Oklahoma City (a major driver of P180's design initiatives) you may read the PDF in its entirety here (http://www.okc.gov/planning/resources/okcspeckfinal.pdf). Speck is widely considered America's foremost expert on the subject. You can watch his TED talk here (http://www.ted.com/talks/jeff_speck_the_walkable_city?language=en).

There are many other experts in that field, and they all agree on the same principles in this regard. But of course OKC has a proud history of paying for advice from experts and then promptly ignoring it.

Urbanized, I totally agree with your sentiments about how this development and Park Ave in general could be a great shopping street. It has some real potential to be an "urban mall" with "real" shopping.

Heck, it's not only you and me...the City's own Park Avenue retail study (http://www.okc.gov/agendapub/cache/2/xpg54qy1oerhhk55x04xj53c/272708306132015033628439.PDF) - released only a couple of months ago - say the same thing and stress preserving/enhancing the pedestrian nature of that block: Park Avenue retail study recommends making street more inviting to pedestrians | News OK (http://newsok.com/park-avenue-retail-study-recommends-making-street-more-inviting-to-pedestrians/article/5404334)

I'm not saying ingress/egress for a garage couldn't be thoughtfully integrated at street level with the rest of the frontage developed as retail, but question the impact that traffic from such a large garage would have on the street itself, and by extension the walkability of Park. It's super-important that this be very well thought out.

Is there something to all of this mad rush to increase parking downtown? Think about it...

Maybe the best thing OKC has done recently in my opinion is get rid of its one way streets.

Who owns the Main Street Garage right now?

Yes. The vast majority of those who fill the office buildings. I share your hope the new downtown housing and offices changes this.


Didn't we used to have a 'like' button? Because I want to 'like' the hell out of this post.

Didn't we used to have a 'like' button? Because I want to 'like' the hell out of this post.

It depends on the type of thread if it has a like button or not, basic threads still do but the ones like this for developments with the extended info at the top of all thread pages do not.

Who owns the Main Street Garage right now?

I'm not 100% certain, but as far as I know it is still Kennedy and Samis. In the mid-nineties they paid around $3 million for it. At the same time they paid $872K (!!!) for FNC. That's less than one dollar per square foot.

I'm not 100% certain, but as far as I know it is still Kennedy and Samis. In the mid-nineties they paid around $3 million for it. At the same time they paid $872K (!!!) for FNC. That's less than one dollar per square foot.

Yes, still owned by Irish Realty (John Kennedy).

The group ultimately donated the FNC to charity then kept the parking garage.

Yep, gave it to Feed the Children, took the tax write off, kept the profitable part (the garage), and doomed the tower to continued financial failure and years wandering in the wilderness. And apparently set in motion events that would lead to demolition of renovation-capable office space in favor of a parking garage which will interrupt the fabric of downtown's best remaining street. I'm not saying that they knew for a fact that it would work that way, but that has been the end result.

does the parking not connect to FNC?

Im failing to understand why the Main Street Garage can't be used for FNC. Does it need to be owned by FNC in order to connect to FNC? Does it even need to be connected to FNC in order to be used by FNC tenants?

I honestly, honestly don't understand what the deal is. The garage already exists, what will change if the ownership became in tandem?

It's all about leasing. If i am going to lease 10,000 sq ft of office space to someone, the reality in a market like OKC is that I need to be able to offer X number of dedicated parking spaces with the lease. If I don't control X number of spaces, I can't offer them.

Counterpoint: Chase and Continental buildings have (virtually) no dedicated parking, and Leadership's garage is only large enough for the most senior employees in the building. But, please note Leadership's garage was somehow able to be built under the office building.

Parking is important, but easy access to a city owned or otherwise publicly available garage.

The Main Street Parking Garage is basically FULL of monthly downtown employee parking.. and that is with a 80% empty First National Center right next door!
There is a HUGE lack of parking in and around downtown.

That portion they are taking about tearing down to build the garage is not good space, and I trust that the city and the downtown design review committee will make them incorporate retail into the street level to make it interactive.

I park in Main Street Garage and have noticed a lot more empty spaces lately. I come and go during the day and have not really had to "hunt" for a spot in a while. I thing the new Garage a couple of blocks west took some of the pressure off of main street garage. If they convert the center part of FNC to parking they will not tear it down. The floors are made to hold much more weight than cars. Cars are also evenly distributed weight. Remember that the Oklahoma Geological society used to be in there with tens of thousands of pounds of files in their office.

^
Summer vacation season.

Wait until mid-August and all those spots will be full again.

Back to the new ownership of this building... Do we know anything new about this guy that might illustrate his commitment to a proper restoration of this building? Last thing I've seen is that he either is or was being sued by former business partners over his development in Cleveland...

What's the deal with the old beacon tower? This thing is an eye sore. The upper third of the building has boarded up Windows, broken windows, and plastic covering holes were the windows are completely gone. The rest of the building looks nothing short of abandoned. Granted, the architectural style of this tower is really quite neat, but it just looks trashy. Why?? Wouldn't it be easier to demo the building and open up real estate??

What's the deal with the old beacon tower? This thing is an eye sore. The upper third of the building has boarded up Windows, broken windows, and plastic covering holes were the windows are completely gone. The rest of the building looks nothing short of abandoned. Granted, the architectural style of this tower is really quite neat, but it just looks trashy. Why?? Wouldn't it be easier to demo the building and open up real estate??

I'm assuming your post must be a joke. Please see the thread about the First National Building for more information if it isn't.

Do you mean the first National Center? If so you will be pleased to find out what is in store.. First National Center - OKCTalk (http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=First+National+Center&highlight=First+National+Center)

I'm assuming your post must be a joke. Please see the thread about the First National Building for more information if it isn't.

No need to be a jerk about it. I didn't know there was an existing thread.

No need to be a jerk about it. I didn't know there was an existing thread.

My intention was absolutely not to be a jerk. I really wondered if your post was a joke since so many here have made previous jokes about demolition of that iconic building.

I kind of thought it was a joke as well. as it makes me cringe when someone says it should be demolished to open up real estate.. eeeeeeks

I've said before that this drumbeat will start at some point. To some people, no building is sacred, old = bad, and trying to saving an old building is the same thing as fighting progress.