Thanks for putting my mind at semi-ease regarding Cafe 7. Now if they would just get some evening hours...

Future of First National Tower in Oklahoma City clouded by legal action | News OK (http://newsok.com/future-of-first-national-tower-in-oklahoma-city-clouded-by-legal-action/article/5387999)

I wonder if the city could use eminent domain to get a court approved price set on the building, put the money in escrow until the final ownership is figured out, and then sell the building to a developer. You can make the case that the FNC is critical for downtown and has to be saved now.

That would certainly be one way to really foul things up even more.

Does the city have any options here, or will it just be stuck waiting possibly years while the court proceedings work themselves out before there is a chance at revitalizing this thing?

Future of First National Tower in Oklahoma City clouded by legal action | News OK (http://newsok.com/future-of-first-national-tower-in-oklahoma-city-clouded-by-legal-action/article/5387999)

Look folks at this point I think we can all agree that only one option remains on the table. TEAR IT DOWN!!!

My concern is that the building is wasting. According to the article, the Great Banking Hall ceiling is under distress. What is the point of keeping it once it has gone past the point of being restored to glory? If the intention it to just gut anyway, then who cares. If the intent is to preserve the historic nature of the building, then someone should act to keep it from losing those features that make it valuable to save. Years down the road when the developer says it is just too costly to save the Great Hall, the city should not cry about its loss.

Nothing is too far gone to save. You just have to want to. OKC's problem is that the people with the resource to do the right thing don't want to do the right thing.

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This latest issue is just a past-due bill for utilities. Yes, it's a lot of money but not in the grand scheme of things; responsibility for the debt (likely the current owners) could be established through the sales agreement then cleared with sale proceeds.

Just goes to show you what type of owners we are dealing with here. I knew they cut way back on building maintenance some time ago and now they aren't even paying their bills.

Hopefully the judge will soon rule on the bigger lien; if that is cleared up, this other matter could be pretty easily resolved as the sale goes forward.

Wanting to save it and being able to afford to save are too different things. Let's let it fall into total disrepair and then see if a developer wants to open his checkbooks up as far as possible to restore to full glory. If they have to spend an additional millions to restore the ceiling, then I am sure no one will complain when they want to put in more parking to improve the ROI or decide they cannot reclad the eastern building with quality materials, or get a very generous gift from the city coffers to assist.

I understand the concern about the properly falling into disrepair but that's been happening for 30 years or more, so there isn't necessarily great urgency.

Remember, the Skrivin sat completely vacant for 20 years and things worked out fine in the end.

Although I'm more anxious than anyone to see this building renovated, waiting another year or two shouldn't make much difference.

I'd be 100% fine with a healthy amount of taxpayer dollars being used to restore the First National Center. It's a piece of OKC history.

I'd be 100% fine with a healthy amount of taxpayer dollars being used to restore the First National Center. It's a piece of OKC history.

I've been told that a TIF just for this property has already been considered.

I agree, although some on here would rather subsidize a convention hotel that is a 50 story, fugly, illuminated blinking monstrosity that can be seen from El Reno.

I agree, although some on here would rather subsidize a convention hotel that is a 50 story, fugly, illuminated blinking monstrosity that can be seen from El Reno.

..and blow the minds of Raptors fans during commercial cutaways.

The First National Center has class. Some people want the high rise equivalent of Tammy Faye Bakker.

I agree, although some on here would rather subsidize a convention hotel that is a 50 story, fugly, illuminated blinking monstrosity that can be seen from El Reno.

"Fugly" is very subjective and the convention hotel has nothing to do with FNC, its viability, or the city getting involved.

It's hard to say which will bring more return on the investment of governmental funds, an iconic building brought back to its glory or a cutting edge building that will bring a lot of free advertisement for the city on national tv. OKC needs both and both are dollars well spent. My comments here have only been that it is a shame to allow the FNC to decline further, requiring even more dollars to bring it back, when we can all see that funds are limited. If there is nothing to be done to save FNC any sooner than the court decides the ownership and lien issues, then so be it. It's only taxpayer money after all.

It's hard to say which will bring more return on the investment of governmental funds, an iconic building brought back to its glory or a cutting edge building that will bring a lot of free advertisement for the city on national tv. OKC needs both and both are dollars well spent. My comments here have only been that it is a shame to allow the FNC to decline further, requiring even more dollars to bring it back, when we can all see that funds are limited. If there is nothing to be done to save FNC any sooner than the court decides the ownership and lien issues, then so be it. It's only taxpayer money after all.

Like.

If/when the ownership issues get figured out, here is what we are doing in Jax than might serve as a model for FNC.

The Barnett (http://thebarnettjax.com/vision.html)

If/when the ownership issues get figured out, here is what we are doing in Jax than might serve as a model for FNC.

The Barnett (http://thebarnettjax.com/vision.html)

Pretty cool JTF

If/when the ownership issues get figured out, here is what we are doing in Jax than might serve as a model for FNC.

The Barnett (http://thebarnettjax.com/vision.html)

THIS, absolutely this.

Some of these photos aren't the best... but OMG!! what a beautiful building this baby is. Wow wow wow!

2/12/2015

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Functionally obsolete!! Rabble rabble rabble!

Those pictures are why I laugh inside when people talk about the craftsmanship, style, fit and finish, and attention to detail at a certain new downtown tower.

Kerry - that's not a dig on Devon as much as it just stands to show that the First National Tower will never be matched. It will never be replicated and it will always remain OKC's top architectural gem.

Those pictures are why I laugh inside when people talk about the craftsmanship, style, fit and finish, and attention to detail at a certain new downtown tower.

Why is it that there is only one way in your mind. Are you that rigid? Both can be quality. You just bash any style you personally don't like.

Kerry - that's not a dig on Devon as much as it just stands to show that the First National Tower will never be matched. It will never be replicated and it will always remain OKC's top architectural gem.

Downtown OKC still has several equally elaborate buildings. Here is the interior of the original downtown post office.

http://www.robinsoniron.com/OldSite/projects/images/us_post_office_slides/fullsize/us_post_office_railing_fs.jpg

It's been many years since I've been there, but the lobby reminds me of the Palmer House in Chicago. Can anyone else confirm?

I like the building did some exploring with one of my friends and was floored the building is pretty much a hidden treasure downtown. The sidewalk on the north side as a date plate in the sidwalk of when the builiding was built. Pretty neat building to explore. JUST don't take the elevators have to be the most terrifying elevators. Me and my friend got on the elevator and pushed the 2nd floor and the elevator shot up to the 13th floor and the doors did not open. We just sat their and was about to use the emergency phone and the elevator dinged and dropped down to the 2nd floor and I pushed the 1st floor and the elevator continued to sit then I reached for the emergency phone and the elevator dropped to the first and the door opened. I pushed my friend of the elevator she was like HEY! I didn't want her to be trapped if I exited the elevator first. I held the open button and pushed her she was mad She said what if the elevator fell That is why I pushed you because you were just standing at the door. We had to get off in a hurry I said I will not ride that elevator till they renovate the building. First National is a real Gem in the heart of downtown.

Downtown OKC still has several equally elaborate buildings. Here is the interior of the original downtown post office.

http://www.robinsoniron.com/OldSite/projects/images/us_post_office_slides/fullsize/us_post_office_railing_fs.jpg

So is the Old Post office open to the public like First National ?

So is the Old Post office open to the public like First National ?

I don't think so, which is probably why most people don't know about it.

I get them confused sometimes, but is the old post office the same space as the treasury building? Now it's parole or something.

I get them confused sometimes, but is the old post office the same space as the treasury building? Now it's parole or something.

Someone correct me if I am wrong but I think it is the bankruptcy courthouse now.

I get them confused sometimes, but is the old post office the same space as the treasury building? Now it's parole or something.

By treasury building, do you mean the old Federal Reserve Building? If so, they are 2 different buildings (across the street from each other). It is too bad every intersection downtown doesn't look like McGee and Harvey.

Do not take pics inside First National Center. You may get sued. | The Lost Ogle (http://www.thelostogle.com/2015/02/19/do-not-take-pics-inside-first-national-center-you-may-get-sued/)

I had lunch with my wife a couple of weeks ago downtown and we walked in and looked around, and I didn't see any "No Trespassing" signs (or any, really, that said it was closed and nobody should be there).

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Robinson at 3rd Street

Got some new, solid info on FNC.

The sale is still pending with earnest money down, but there is no set closing date. It seems everyone wants the pending lien issue resolved first, but the still unnamed out of state buyer is dead serious and very much wants the property.

One thing that may force resolution and soon (as in the next couple of months) is that the current owner is absolutely hemorrhaging money because virtually everyone has left the building and they still have huge maintenance, utility and tax bills. The owners really have to do something and may end up settling the lien out of pocket so the sale can go through and they can stop bleeding cash.

The prospective buyers are deep in negotiations with the Alliance for Economic Development and I've been told one option -- and the possible incentives are myriad -- is to have a dedicated TIF just for this project. In other words, all the property tax increases over the next 25 years would go back to the redeveloper, and perhaps sales tax generated there as well (ala the Skirvin).


I think we are nearing high noon for the current owners and they may have to bite the bullet and just settle on the pending litigation to get out from under this thing.

TheTravelers, I'm no legal expert, but if they don't have a sign up or something blocking the path, it can't be considered trespassing, right? They would have to prove that there are signs up, but then the defendant would also have to prove that there aren't signs up. Although, I would say the security guard's reaction is pretty heavy in favor of the defendant here. Can someone enlighten me as to if FNC even has grounds to demand the removal of pictures taken? I'm pretty sure that you can't own rights to pictures someone else takes regardless of what they are. If someone takes a celebrity's picture (ie the popatazy), they don't have to pay the celebrity. Same for a building. I don't think anyone owns the rights to all images taken of anything?????

Sounds like someone trying to squeeze lawsuit money out of someone else when the boat is sinking....even though they would lose and end up costing money and then be due legal fees, which they wont pay, so the lawyer would sue them too...LOL

TheTravelers, I'm no legal expert, but if they don't have a sign up or something blocking the path, it can't be considered trespassing, right? They would have to prove that there are signs up, but then the defendant would also have to prove that there aren't signs up. Although, I would say the security guard's reaction is pretty heavy in favor of the defendant here. Can someone enlighten me as to if FNC even has grounds to demand the removal of pictures taken? I'm pretty sure that you can't own rights to pictures someone else takes regardless of what they are. If someone takes a celebrity's picture (ie the popatazy), they don't have to pay the celebrity. Same for a building. I don't think anyone owns the rights to all images taken of anything?????

Sounds like someone trying to squeeze lawsuit money out of someone else when the boat is sinking....even though they would lose and end up costing money and then be due legal fees, which they wont pay, so the lawyer would sue them too...LOL

I actually took some pictures while with Jamie (the property manager) last year. Considering posting them and tagging FNC just to be annoying.

My guess is the issue isn't so much with the pictures themselves but more to do with either the type of camera equipment used or using the images to generate revenue on the blog. Our local art museums here in Jax allow pictures to be taken but expressly prohibit tripods, artifical lighting other than the camera flash, or any lense over 6 inches. The pictures can be shared on social media and personal use but they can't be used to generate revenue for the person who took the picture, such as posting on a personal blog that sells advertising space. If you want to do those things you have to get permission.

TheTravelers, I'm no legal expert, but if they don't have a sign up or something blocking the path, it can't be considered trespassing, right? They would have to prove that there are signs up, but then the defendant would also have to prove that there aren't signs up. Although, I would say the security guard's reaction is pretty heavy in favor of the defendant here. Can someone enlighten me as to if FNC even has grounds to demand the removal of pictures taken? I'm pretty sure that you can't own rights to pictures someone else takes regardless of what they are. If someone takes a celebrity's picture (ie the popatazy), they don't have to pay the celebrity. Same for a building. I don't think anyone owns the rights to all images taken of anything?????

Sounds like someone trying to squeeze lawsuit money out of someone else when the boat is sinking....even though they would lose and end up costing money and then be due legal fees, which they wont pay, so the lawyer would sue them too...LOL

For as long as I remember, there have been signs at the base of the escalator going to the banking hall forbidding anyone from accessing. Not sure if there are other entrances besides the escalators.

The signs are only on the escalators, and read "Not For Public Access." The much wider, very open staircase between the two escalators has no sign, and no barrier. I had always assumed the signs were to keep people off the broken escalators.

The signs are only on the escalators, and read "Not For Public Access." The much wider, very open staircase between the two escalators has no sign, and no barrier. I had always assumed the signs were to keep people off the broken escalators.

I always thought the same thing. The position of the sign strongly implies that only the escalator is off-limits. It would be ridiculously easy to post signs (or even just a single strand of masking tape) across the stairways if they were serious about restricting access.

If they really wanted to keep people out of there, it wouldn't be difficult to put up something that would actually be a barrier.

All this just shows the mentality of the current owners. This property can't sell soon enough.

I really didn't think they wanted to keep people out of there. I go up there semi-regularly, and am often not the only one there.

The signs are no longer on the escalators themselves but just inside the escalators (in front of the stairs). Still not much of a barrier.

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The Great Banking Hall is a jewel, a hidden gem of the past that sits dormant and lifeless at the day it was constructed.

The Great Banking Hall, where we deposited our inheritance from a relative.

As youngsters, this was exciting; later, mother took us to her lawyer's office (Mr. Fisher) to begin emancipation. Those were the days (LOL). We were grown physically; mentality, that's another subject. The beginning of independence, now was the time to practice personal management of one's affairs, which also came with taking responsibility for one's decisions & actions. My first saving account as a 15 year old, it was just the beginning.

Yes, the Great Banking Hall brings back memories with its cathedral-like décor. She was active in her day; now she sits solemnly at peace. Much like the viewing of a deceased person, so strange, so surreal that you can't help but reminiscence about when the place was active. It's now entombed in its own macabre-like mortuary--just waiting to be ressurrected.

Whenever you're in the First National Center, you feel compelled (mesmerized) to take a peep inside this monstrous concourse hall which was once full of banking activity. Please forgive my Walter Mitty moment...

If they really wanted to keep people out of there, it wouldn't be difficult to put up something that would actually be a barrier.

All this just shows the mentality of the current owners. <blink>This property can't sell soon enough.</blink>

Remember that old html? Everyone used it - at least once - on GeoCities. Wish that blink still worked - Pete is absolutely right.

There are youth of faith who hold Meet at the Flagpole prayer events at their schools.

Kinda sorta makes me ponder ... what might transpire if an informal Meet at the Hall date/time was decided on for GBH devotees to snap pics, shake hands and have a moment of silence in support of a quick sale and rebirth of FNC.

Downtown OKC still has several equally elaborate buildings. Here is the interior of the original downtown post office.


No doubt, we still have pretty good building stock (for now). FNC is special, though.

Well one good reason to keep people out of there is that if you don't supervise those people, you could have some vandalism on your hands, or even theft of historic property. But if they don't want people up there, then a real barrier or even proper signage on stairs and escalators would be a better idea.

I've always wondered why it wasn't on street level though. It seems very odd to go up once youre inside rather than an Greco-Roman building with stairs outside (think bank of England or whatever old cathedral, etc).

The stairs used to be roped off, but a few years ago they removed that rope and essentially encouraged people to go up and check it out; perhaps even officially IIRC. The remaining ropes are clearly intended only to keep you off of the escalators. I myself have been up there many times. It's a good, quiet place to take a phone call when having lunch at the noisy Cafe 7, for instance.

On multiple occasions I have seen property management or security and have never been accosted, and in fact have even been smiled/waved at or told "hi." There is no attempt - NONE - to discourage the public from going up there.

I imagine all of this kerfuffle came about because the owners are hemorrhaging cash and have had some small success over the years in monetizing shoots in that space (The Killer Inside Me in 2010, recent Riverwind Casino shoot). I'm sure they also have requests for wedding shoots, etc., for which they probably (fairly) charge. They probably perceived her blog post as a commercialization of the space and were absolutely ham-handed in their protection of location fees. They totally overplayed their hand with allegations of trespassing, especially.

Can someone enlighten me as to if FNC even has grounds to demand the removal of pictures taken? I'm pretty sure that you can't own rights to pictures someone else takes regardless of what they are. If someone takes a celebrity's picture (ie the popatazy), they don't have to pay the celebrity. Same for a building. I don't think anyone owns the rights to all images taken of anything?????

Generally, if you're on private property taking a photo of private property, you must have a property release. A property release is like a model release. It's a legal agreement between you and whoever represents the property stating that you have consent to make and use photos depicting the private property. It's also advisable to have a property release even if you're taking photos of private property that's visible from public property. There are exceptions for some uses of a photo, and usually taking photos for your own personal use won't raise any unwanted attention, but it's industry standard for photographers to obtain a property release when photographing private property.

Paparazzi make photos of celebrities and other public figures for editorial use without permission because some editorial uses of photos don't require consent. It's all pretty complicated though, and laws vary by state. The management of FNC have the right to control who takes photos of their property and for what purpose, but it's pretty nit-picky for them to threaten legal action over photos of the banking hall on some obscure blog.

Edit: I should add that most uses of photos on a blog would be considered editorial.

Well if they don't have anything posted that says no photography, should you just expect people to not use it as they wish? It seems very unbalanced for someone to go sue-happy with very little protection for the public.

While it would be great for them to post it, not posting it does not surrender their rights as property owners. The offender does not become the victim just because it is something they wanted it to do.

That's said, how they enforce their rights can be done any number of ways from sleazy and snarky to professional and classy.

Like I said, ham-handed. And to clarify, I don't really have a problem with requiring photo release or even location fee - especially for commercially-published photography or professional portraits - what I disagree with is the nasty wording suggesting she was "trespassing".

I see the stairs leading to the Great Banking Hall several times a month. I also control commercial spaces that I have to keep the public out of some or all of the time. On more than one occasion I have had to press (or at least threaten) trespassing charges. In no way is the signage or crowd control in the FNB lobby adequate to even discourage access; much less to deny it. If you called a cop on someone for walking around up there he'd laugh in your face. And like I said, at one point in recent years they had even made a point of publicly encouraging the public to check out the space.

The threatening trespassing part was just dumb.

While it would be great for them to post it, not posting it does not surrender their rights as property owners. The offender does not become the victim just because it is something they wanted it to do.

That's said, how they enforce their rights can be done any number of ways from sleazy and snarky to professional and classy.

I'm not arguing because I don't know law well enough to have anything other than a personal opinion here, but man that seems just crappy. I mean I guess I can understand that if you take a picture of OU's stadium and sell it, if you're not part of the university merchandising group, the university misses out on profit from it and all. But I really feel like that sort of thing should be left up to the consumer to decide. Do they want to purchase something that wasn't "approved" by the university? Why should the university be allowed to control what's done? Maybe that's too liberal of a perspective because if you're controlling your image, you don't want someone to be able to misconstrue something without your knowledge and the like. I guess I just look at it like, if you're out in public where people can see you/it, then it's free-range for having your picture taken and used <- but i'll only go that far for an editorial. If someone is going to profit off of it, then the content of the photograph, being person or thing, should be compensated since they're "selling" the photo so to speak.

I'm rambling.....

I think we all realize that the above story wouldn't hold up in court, it would just end up costing the person money for defense. But that person could cause a LOT of bad PR for the owners along the way. Is it worth it to FNC to do that, no way uh huh. But apparently that hasn't stopped them from being stupid.

Bad PR isn't something they are worried about.

Towering worries: State agencies deal with First National Center uncertainties
Journal Record
By: Dale Denwalt March 18, 20150

OKLAHOMA CITY – Some state agencies housed inside the First National Center are looking for somewhere else to go as ownership of the historic downtown skyscraper hangs on the result of a lien filing.

On the eighth floor, Oklahoma Department of Securities Administrator Irving Faught said he hasn’t heard from his landlord since his lease expired last year. The agency now pays rent by the month, with no contract.

“Nobody’s offered to renew,” he said. “Nobody’s told us what’s happening.”

While waiting, Faught has looked at other offices in downtown Oklahoma City. The nature of the department’s work almost requires the 12,000 square feet of office space to be near courthouses.

“I don’t think it’s prudent to assume this building’s going to be here and we’re going to stay in it, so I’m ready to go,” Faught said. “If I can find a space, we’ll go.”

The First National Center’s future is in limbo while its owner tries to settle a lien on the property. Once that’s done, the building can be sold.

Since she became interim executive director of the Pardon and Parole Board last year, Jari Askins has known she had to search for a new home. The board is also on a month-to-month lease.

Even though they haven’t packed their bags, the Pardon and Parole Board knows that relocating is imminent.

“I don’t think that’s any surprise,” Askins said.

Moving out of the building would be a good thing for the board and those who come to visit it, she said.

“The public has a need to have access to us,” Askins said. “We have victims who want to bring things to us. We have family members of offenders who need to bring things to us. Sometimes, the ability to find us when you’re in downtown Oklahoma City is not always easy.”

The Oklahoma Tourism and Recreation Department leases about 30,000 square feet on the building’s sixth floor. Deputy Director Claudia Conner said the agency’s lease is up June 30, but the group plans to stay at least another year. Its contract required that the landlord give six months’ notice before the end of the lease if there would be any changes.
“That notice never came,” Conner said. “Our contractual clauses allow that the lessee hold over for another year (at the same terms).”

Tourism also has a 30-day option that allows the department to move out if it finds better accommodations.

“I’m not intending to exercise it, but it’s there,” said Conner, who also serves as the department’s general counsel.

Tourism pays $9 per square foot per year. Conner said that, through an informal poll of other state agencies located downtown, some were paying nearly twice as much.
“You can hear the elevator and hear the street noise,” she said of the First National Center. “It’s an older building, but it’s suitable for our purposes.”

From the 12th floor, Oklahoma Aeronautics Commission Director Victor Bird said he’d love if someone had the money to restore the building.

“The real will to do that comes with the capital to make that happen,” Bird said. “That’s what’s been lacking a bit.”

His relatively small office – 1,200 square feet – has a good lease rate. It’s also good for his agency that it’s downtown.

“It’s accommodating us,” Bird said. “It’s close to the Capitol and close to the highway, so we can get out to our airports across the state.”

The Department of Securities moved into the First National Center 20 years ago, when its previous home inside the Journal Record Building was damaged in the Alfred P. Murrah bombing. Faught said that even though he’s looking for different office space, he’d like to stay.


“I love the building,” he said. “I’m very happy to be here.”