BoulderSooner is right to a certain degree. There are a lot of people who don't care about anything. You could even bulldoze the bombing memorial and put in a Wal-Mart supercenter and I'm sure there are people in this city who would be totally fine with that. I'm sure there are a lot of people who wouldn't care one bit if you tore down First National. BoulderSooner is one of them.

It doesn't mean that those people have an opinion that is worth anything. No offense, Boulder.


I would be crazy opposed to the demo of First National. Unless something that was replaceing it was amazing.


Just wait the preservation folks are going to oppose the demo of the center section. Of first national when the time comes. After all it is 58 years old. Even though it's demo will be required to make room for the garage that makes any Renovation of the tower feasible

I am sure far more people care about the bombing memorial than care about Union Bus Station. The same would go for First National Center. There are some people that wouldn't care if it was demolished but for many it would be an outrage.

That's true. I use that as an example to drive home the point that just because there are people who don't care, that doesn't make a place worthless.

Just wait the preservation folks are going to oppose the demo of the center section. Of first national when the time comes. After all it is 58 years old. Even though it's demo will be required to make room for the garage that makes any Renovation of the tower feasible

A small group may oppose that but you can't lump everyone who cares about the City's history and urban fabric into one bucket.

Most people here were fine with some of the SandRidge demolitions, just not all of them. We didn't hear a peep about the old Globe Life building coming down. And I think most people got their minds around the Main Street buildings on the Preftakes Block going away.

Intelligent, informed people can distinguish between something that probably has to go vs. something relatively important being bulldozed for no other reason than expediency or selfish corporate desires. And in the case of the Hines project, they are just planning to lay waste to everything on the block, and that absolutely should be challenged.

Speaking for myself, I'd have absolutely no issue with the center of FNC being demoed as part of a bigger redevelopment plan.

Promises, Demolition and First National Center | News OK (http://newsok.com/promises-demolition-and-first-national-center/article/5380331)

From the newsok.com article:

"Today's story about First National Center being emptied out with no sale certain has people nervous. And despite there being no threat voiced or hinted at in terms of demolition, rumors are flying online that First National could be the next endangered building."

This reaction probably came from this reaction:


This is extremely disappointing news. Why is it so often in this town the most exciting projects end up being extremely scaled back or cancelled or in major legal disputes that take many years to work out? Now we are talking demolition of this treasure? If First National Center gets demolished for anything less than a 1000+ ft supertall, I will lose all hope in OKC ever having a vibrant, urban downtown that can pull its weight and compete with its peers across the country.

From the newsok.com article:

"Today's story about First National Center being emptied out with no sale certain has people nervous. And despite there being no threat voiced or hinted at in terms of demolition, rumors are flying online that First National could be the next endangered building."

This reaction probably came from this reaction:

I'd like to think Urbanized and myself caused it :D

I know you all talked about it, but this:


Yep. I've said it before here and been shouted down for my trouble, but expect to hear the demolition drumbeat start. For some rubble-rousers no old building is off-limits.


Get ready to start hearing the term "functionally obsolete"...

Doesn't sound as crazy as this:


This is extremely disappointing news. Why is it so often in this town the most exciting projects end up being extremely scaled back or cancelled or in major legal disputes that take many years to work out? Now we are talking demolition of this treasure? If First National Center gets demolished for anything less than a 1000+ ft supertall, I will lose all hope in OKC ever having a vibrant, urban downtown that can pull its weight and compete with its peers across the country.

From that article by Steve:

Promises, Demolition and First National Center | News OK (http://newsok.com/promises-demolition-and-first-national-center/article/5380331)


As recently as last summer I was responding to questions about the old Hotel Black and Union Bus Station that I did not have any definite information that they were being targeted for demolition. That was the truth. What I had were promises by owner Nicholas Preftakes that the buildings were not going to be torn down. I never had any such assurances about the Lunch Box building or the old Carpenter Square Theater (originally Baron's Department Store).

So I responded as only I could - that the last response from Preftakes was a promise that they would not get threatened. I take my responsibility to report accurately seriously, and I take responsibility for when I get it wrong.


Here is what he said and when he said it:

10/17/14 (http://newsok.com/stage-center-site-chat-with-steve-lackmeyer/article/5349363)

I am certain the old Hotel Black will survive. I've also been told by folks of influence that the bus station will also survive.


10/24/14 (http://newsok.com/okc-central-chat-transcript-oct.-24-2014/article/5359814)

Nicholas Preftakes promised the Union Bus Station would not be torn down when he purchase the building. He has indicated One North Hudson, the old Black Hotel, also would not be torn down. City design ordinances would make it almost impossible to tear down both structures.

11/7/14 (http://newsok.com/okc-central-chat-transcript-nov.-7-2014/article/5364525)

I question whether the Downtown Design Review Committee would simply let the bus station and the old Hotel Black be torn down when they are functional, structurally sound buildings with people interested in redeveloping them - especially if they are to be torn down for a parking garage.

"rumors flying online" Ha! 2nd time today after he tweeted a "rumor circulating online" earlier. I wonder where online he is talking about.

I would be crazy opposed to the demo of First National. Unless something that was replaceing it was amazing.

Would you consider 499 Sheridan and the accompanying parking garages 'amazing' enough? What about Sandridge Commons?

Well, the three biggest things FNC have going for it.
1. Not across the street from the Devon Energy Center. Probably the best thing it has going for it.
2. Not across the street from MBG.
3. The plot of the land the FNC sits on isn't all that large.

Yep. I've said it before here and been shouted down for my trouble, but expect to hear the demolition drumbeat start. For some rubble-rousers no old building is off-limits.

Oh hell no. That would never happen. I would hide myself somewhere inside FNC where they couldn't find me and they would be forced to not demo it.

I'm seriously considering putting this in our header:


"We always feel Oklahoma City is most successful when our residents are informed, engaged and able to participate in an ongoing public process.” – Mick Cornett Oklahoma City Mayor

Oil company withdraws Lake Hefner drilling proposal | KFOR.com (http://kfor.com/2014/12/26/breaking-news-oil-company-withdraws-lake-hefner-drilling-proposal/)

So... Cafe 7... is it gone? Does "emptying out" also mean the retail spaces? Sorry if this is a dumb question...

Thank you Sid! Its not unreasonable to have that discussion when the sale is in limbo and the building is being empty. No one is saying it will be but the chances raised from zero with a buyer to extremely slim. Everything on here isn't a rumor, its a discussion between people who care about this city and want to make it better and keep/ get more people informed.

So... Cafe 7... is it gone? Does "emptying out" also mean the retail spaces? Sorry if this is a dumb question...

I know the current owners were wanting people out of the tower (west section) because any sale would be to someone who planned a massive redevelopment, and it was advantageous to market the property as ready for that process.

But now that things are in limbo, I can't imagine why they would want to run off the few remaining rent-paying tenants. Some income is better than none.

There seems to be this arrogant attitude by some of the powers that be in OKC that the public just needs to be told what to think and that everyone should just be trusted. Let the parents decide and report and we'll just pat the kids on the head; they should only speak when spoken to.

The huge problem is the complete lack of checks and balances inherent in the way big decisions are currently being made.

You have a precious few making huge decisions (increasingly behind the veil of the Alliance which does not have to comply with open records or open meeting laws), support is gathered from City Council long before there is a public meeting, and local media is clearly in bed with big business.

I am the furthest thing from a conspiracy theorist but the more I get raw, unfiltered, source information the more all of this makes me extremely uncomfortable.


The bottom line is if all this is so above board and so great for OKC, why all the secrecy? Exactly who is financing the Hines project? Why has't Nick Preftakes' name even been mentioned? Same exact questions for Clayco and Rainey Williams and OG&E.

There is no question the public process is being manipulated on both these projects and those are issues that need to be fully explored. And you have to question the role and motivation of those that don't want that to happen.

I know the current owners were wanting people out of the tower (west section) because any sale would be to someone who planned a massive redevelopment, and it was advantageous to market the property as ready for that process.

But now that things are in limbo, I can't imagine why they would want to run off the few remaining rent-paying tenants. Some income is better than none.

I wish the Parkside building and grounds were ready, that restaurant space would make a nice alternate location for Cafe 7, ideally with dinner hours. Or, if the Cool Greens return doesn't happen, that space would work.

Pete, I can tell you the bad taste in my mouth over the last 2 months is from exactly what you just described. Clayco, 499 Sheridan, etc... are just the physical manifestations of what I feel has become a corrupt state and city government being run 100% by members of the oil establishment and is functionally no different than Putin's Russia or the elite ruling class in The Ukraine. It has turned me off from ever wanting to move back to Oklahoma. As a self-described right wing tea partier it scares the **** out of me that my fellow travels have been duped into not only following this path, but championing it. Turning the public realm over to private interest is NOT what I signed up for.

There seems to be this arrogant attitude by some of the powers that be in OKC that the public just needs to be told what to think and that everyone should just be trusted. Let the parents decide and report and we'll just pat the kids on the head; they should only speak when spoken to.

The huge problem is the complete lack of checks and balances inherent in the way big decisions are currently being made.

You have a precious few making huge decisions (increasingly behind the veil of the Alliance which does not have to comply with open records or open meeting laws), support is gathered from City Council long before there is a public meeting, and local media is clearly in bed with big business.

I am the furthest thing from a conspiracy theorist but the more I get raw, source information (not through a filter) the more all of this makes me extremely uncomfortable.


The bottom line is if all this is so above board and so great for OKC, why all the secrecy? Exactly who is financing the Hines project? Why has't Nick Preftakes' name even been mentioned? Same exact questions for Clayco and Rainey Williams and OG&E.

There is no question the public process is being manipulated on both these projects and those are issues that need to be fully explored. And you have to question the role and motivation of those that don't want that to happen.

Not to dismiss your concerns, or water them down, but this is a microcosm of what's been happening all over the USA in the past few years/decades, and I'm getting more and more disgusted by it, but don't see a way out. I addressed it in another thread (and need to reply to Sid's reply), but the "people" don't matter in the USA any longer, pretty much *everything* is being controlled by the rich and super-rich (yes, I know it has been that way for a while, but now it's so nakedly out in the open). There are a few folks in OKC that have the power and $$$$$$ that they can do whatever they want, and nobody is accountable because nobody else has the power. We can elect new folks to the city council and other offices, but how long will it be before they become the tools of the $$$$? That's about all we can do now, disheartening at best, horrible at worst, but I see no way out of this situation here in OKC and the USA - the people cannot turn into the moneyed, powered elite, and the moneyed, powered elite just keep right on going. If anybody has any suggestions on how to fix this, let's hear 'em!

This *might* be a solution (long-term, most likely, if even that), but check out the map - no members of the organization are from OK (1 of 10 states that don't have members). Only elected officials can be members, so maybe we find out if there are any "progressive" elected officials in OKC and ask them to join?

LocalProgress (http://localprogress.org/)

From the Cities a Progressive Movement Will Rise*|*Nick Licata (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nick-licata/from-the-cities-a-progres_b_6373854.html)

Pete, I can tell you the bad taste in my mouth over the last 2 months is from exactly what you just described. Clayco, 499 Sheridan, etc... are just the physical manifestations of what I feel has become a corrupt state and city government being run 100% by members of the oil establishment and is functionally no different than Putin's Russia or the elite ruling class in The Ukraine. It has turned me off from ever wanting to move back to Oklahoma. As a self-described right wing tea partier it scares the **** out of me that my fellow travels have been duped into not only following this path, but championing it. Turning the public realm over to private interest is NOT what I signed up for.

And congrats full tin foil hat status has been achieved

Not to dismiss your concerns, or water them down, but this is a microcosm of what's been happening all over the USA in the past few years/decades, and I'm getting more and more disgusted by it, but don't see a way out. I addressed it in another thread (and need to reply to Sid's reply), but the "people" don't matter in the USA any longer, pretty much *everything* is being controlled by the rich and super-rich (yes, I know it has been that way for a while, but now it's so nakedly out in the open). There are a few folks in OKC that have the power and $$$$$$ that they can do whatever they want, and nobody is accountable because nobody else has the power. We can elect new folks to the city council and other offices, but how long will it be before they become the tools of the $$$$? That's about all we can do now, disheartening at best, horrible at worst, but I see no way out of this situation here in OKC and the USA - the people cannot turn into the moneyed, powered elite, and the moneyed, powered elite just keep right on going. If anybody has any suggestions on how to fix this, let's hear 'em!

This *might* be a solution (long-term, most likely, if even that), but check out the map - no members of the organization are from OK (1 of 10 states that don't have members). Only elected officials can be members, so maybe we find out if there are any "progressive" elected officials in OKC and ask them to join?

LocalProgress (http://localprogress.org/)

From the Cities a Progressive Movement Will Rise*|*Nick Licata (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nick-licata/from-the-cities-a-progres_b_6373854.html)

And the call for socialism. Yeah.

And the call for socialism. Yeah.

Says the guy blindly falling into a dictatorship hiding behind a puppet democracy.

Pete, I can tell you the bad taste in my mouth over the last 2 months is from exactly what you just described. Clayco, 499 Sheridan, etc... are just the physical manifestations of what I feel has become a corrupt state and city government being run 100% by members of the oil establishment and is functionally no different than Putin's Russia or the elite ruling class in The Ukraine. It has turned me off from ever wanting to move back to Oklahoma. As a self-described right wing tea partier it scares the **** out of me that my fellow travels have been duped into not only following this path, but championing it. Turning the public realm over to private interest is NOT what I signed up for.

This would be another long discussion that would completely derail the thread, but for most Americans, conservative, right-wing tea partyism and new urbanism are incompatible. Conservatism is about preserving the post-World War II American dream i.e. the suburban lifestyle and values that dominated American culture from the 1950s through the 1980s. There is a reason most conservatives prefer suburbs and rural areas and most liberals prefer cities. New Urbanism is seen as one in the same with liberalism.

Right. New urbanism. = more govt control/interference. "Right wing tea party" is the opposite of that

Reminder that several City Council spots go to election in just two months.

This is a great time to call out the City Council on issues like these and make them take a public stand, then vote accordingly.

All new TIF's, TIF allocations and committee appointments have to be approved by the council.

There is nothing that could be proposed that would merit taking down First National. Nothing. There are plenty of other spots in OKC to build. OKC isn't NYC.

Right. New urbanism. = more govt control/interference. "Right wing tea party" is the opposite of that

It is interesting you say that because in reality New Urbanism is the local free-market solution and modern Euclidean zoning is the "more govt control/interference" option. New Urbanism doesn't regulate land use. All it does is protect the public realm (relationship to the street). If you don't believe me go look at OKC's current zoning and land use code and compare it to the SmartCode and then ask yourself which you would rather live under.

SmartCode Central (http://smartcodecentral.org/)

As further proof - all those old building being torn down in OKC were built before OKC had a zoning code and government regulation (or at least minimal by today's standard). How is that the old stuff you seem to hate was built without government interference and the new stuff you love is riddled with government regulation, and in the case of the Clayco development - paid for with a big heaping shovel full of tax dollars. You have become so blind you don't even know what you believe in anymore.

...and no, I am not sorry this time for derailing the thread because this is the root cause for a lot that is wrong now.

Pete, please do put that quote in the header - that's awesome - we're not doing our civic duty IMO if we're not questioning our elected leaders (at all levels) to make sure that they're accountable for their plans and actions (or inactions)

shawnw, no more leases in FNC means all of FNC - so Cafe 7, the Tinder Box, Dr. Hirsch and Saints Metro Medical, Tommy & Leigh and the nail ladies on 7, lawyers, architects, engineers, oil companies, state agencies - all gone-zo, not all at once but there'll be a slow exodus until there's no one left

jn1780, the FNC land isn't all that large? It takes up one-half of the entire city block bounded by Robinson/Broadway and Main/Park - it's HUGE! and smack in the center of all the other downtown buildings - maybe you're only thinking of the FNC as the Tower and forgetting about the rest of the building?

For the most part, I like Steve and his info - there's few other sources out there for info on downtown OKC - but I also know enough not to take his info as the gospel - I have no doubt he gets a lot of very good information from trusted sources - but I'm also sure he gets played every now and then and fed misinformation as many of us do in our daily jobs - it's up to us to decide what's wheat and what's chaff - I think he got played on the Preftakes Block thing but so what, I'm not all that torn up about the Bus Station or Hotel Black - I will be torqued about the First National though so I hope he's not being fed propaganda on the FNC

Personally, I don't think the First National Tower will ever get demolished - it's too grand a structure and too much a keystone for downtown OKC to suffer that indignity - but it needs a LOT of TLC right now - heck, I was in there yesterday and only one of the four elevators to the top half of the tower was in working condition (which is exactly the same as it has been for months now) - it is my hope that the tower gets refurbished for at least the 2000's and restored to glory, whether it be as a hotel, housing, office or all of the above

However, a good portion of the remainder of the FNC I think should and will get torn down - I don't know much about the East building other than it's old and decrepit and the Center building is worse - who knows what will replace it/them - parking garage, modern office space, retail, your guess is as good as mine

I spent a lot of time in the FNC, especially the Tower, for many many years - she needs a lot of love - I hope that she gets it

Bob

Reminder that several City Council spots go to election in just two months.

This is a great time to call out the City Council on issues like these and make them take a public stand, then vote accordingly.

All new TIF's, TIF allocations and committee appointments have to be approved by the council.

My concern, like those of many others here, is that too few people care enough to make any kind of stand loud enough to make a difference. Everyone that reads this board could write a letter to the mayor, their city council person, the ddrc and even Larry nichols, Hines, Pickard, and every board member at Devon, but would that be enough to make any kind of difference. How do we get more people to give a rip about this?

Pete, I can tell you the bad taste in my mouth over the last 2 months is from exactly what you just described. Clayco, 499 Sheridan, etc... are just the physical manifestations of what I feel has become a corrupt state and city government being run 100% by members of the oil establishment and is functionally no different than Putin's Russia or the elite ruling class in The Ukraine. It has turned me off from ever wanting to move back to Oklahoma. As a self-described right wing tea partier it scares the **** out of me that my fellow travels have been duped into not only following this path, but championing it. Turning the public realm over to private interest is NOT what I signed up for.

Though you make some good points, in this comment and in most of your posts on urbanism, this goes way overboard.

I know the current owners were wanting people out of the tower (west section) because any sale would be to someone who planned a massive redevelopment, and it was advantageous to market the property as ready for that process.

But now that things are in limbo, I can't imagine why they would want to run off the few remaining rent-paying tenants. Some income is better than none.
Purely a guess on my part, but I suspect that they want the place vacated because if and when a deal ever gets made, having it sitting vacant would facilitate a quicker sale - the new owner(s) could close quickly and get started on the turnaround as opposed to having to wait weeks/months/years for leases to expire and tenants to move - a potential huge selling point if you're a developer looking to refurbish/restore the place vs being a landlord while you wait for everyone to leave

Another guess on my part - I suspect it's a lot more cost effective with the current occupancy rate to just padlock the doors, turn off the utilities and pay the property taxes each year than it is to keep the place open for those few remaining rent-paying tenants - I was always told the first rule of getting out of a hole is to quit digging......

Bob

There is nothing that could be proposed that would merit taking down First National. Nothing. There are plenty of other spots in OKC to build. OKC isn't NYC.

You could say the exact same thing for Hotel Black.

And the Skirvin, which people in the know say was precariously close to demolition due to the will of a few important civic leaders.

You could say the exact same thing for Hotel Black.

And the Skirvin, which people in the know say was precariously close to demolition due to the will of a few important civic leaders.

You are right. Downtown OKC has enough surface parking and grassy lots that there really isn't any excuse for demolishing anything at all. If I was playing SimCity, I would place the 499 Sheridan development instead on the southwest corner of Walker and Sheridan on the surface parking. Either that or fit everything in the way KanyeMo posted in that thread.

My concern, like those of many others here, is that too few people care enough to make any kind of stand loud enough to make a difference. Everyone that reads this board could write a letter to the mayor, their city council person, the ddrc and even Larry nichols, Hines, Pickard, and every board member at Devon, but would that be enough to make any kind of difference. How do we get more people to give a rip about this?

I know in my case, I plan to keep exposing hypocrisy and misinformation and the circumvention of the public process.

I also have some specific ideas for changes that can be driven by the City Council, and I hope to not only publish them (with feedback from the people here) but take then directly to members of the Council individually.

I'll have more on all this very soon... Many discussions and research happening behind the scenes.

You are right. Downtown OKC has enough surface parking and grassy lots that there really isn't any excuse for demolishing anything at all. If I was playing SimCity, I would place the 499 Sheridan development instead on the southwest corner of Walker and Sheridan on the surface parking. Either that or fit everything in the way KanyeMo posted in that thread.

But this isn't sim city. This is private development and ownership

9918

9919

Excellent shots of the three different buildings that comprise the FNC - thanks Pete!

Bob

It is interesting you say that because in reality New Urbanism is the local free-market solution and modern Euclidean zoning is the "more govt control/interference" option. New Urbanism doesn't regulate land use. All it does is protect the public realm (relationship to the street). If you don't believe me go look at OKC's current zoning and land use code and compare it to the SmartCode and then ask yourself which you would rather live under.

SmartCode Central (http://smartcodecentral.org/)

As further proof - all those old building being torn down in OKC were built before OKC had a zoning code and government regulation (or at least minimal by today's standard). How is that the old stuff you seem to hate was built without government interference and the new stuff you love is riddled with government regulation, and in the case of the Clayco development - paid for with a big heaping shovel full of tax dollars. You have become so blind you don't even know what you believe in anymore.

...and no, I am not sorry this time for derailing the thread because this is the root cause for a lot that is wrong now.

^^^

100% agree with this. "New Urbanism" isn't political, it's the anti-political. I may not agree with everything about it and may not agree with Kerry ALL of the time, but what he is saying in this post is 100% correct.

They can only implode the FNC if they promise to build 2 40-50 story buildings . Otherwise,we will have to go down there in shifts and make a human ring around the buildings.

But seriously,who thinks that there is even the slightest possibility of the FNC coming down? Not me.

I don't think it would ever be demoed but I also wouldn't just assume that to be the case, especially if it sits vacant for years.

Yeah, I don't think so either. I can see the east building(s) coming down as was said above. FNC tower is a landmark and could be restored for much less than demo/rebuilding something. If or when this is done, it'll be a great investment for someone.

There is also a proven track record on how to get the funding together and then run a successful hotel after huge renovations to a historic building, thanks to the Skirvin and Colcord.

Except they aren't. People are talking about possibilities. I'm glad Steve is taking responsibility for just being wrong about Preftakes but I wish he'd apply the same integrity here. A discussion isn't the same as "rumors flying".

I was referring to comments being made on Twitter. My post, by the way, was already being written before today's discussion and would have been posted Friday if I hadn't gotten sick. Was I misled by people I trusted? Yep. I'll make sure that doesn't happen again.

But this isn't sim city. This is private development and ownership

It's private development and ownership in an area that has received hundreds of millions of dollars in public funding, with specific laws and design guidelines about how you are supposed to build in this area.

It isn't like someone sprung this on them by surprise. They knew about these rules before they bought the land. If I move into Heritage Hills and want to tear down a turn of the century Georgian manor and replace it with something that looks like a giant neon pink igloo, you can understand why I'll be prevented from doing that. Right?

....Right?

You could say the exact same thing for Hotel Black.

I totally agree. That's why these demolitions are so frustrating. They're unnecessary. There are so many better ways to make this new tower work with the existing buildings/environment.

It's private development and ownership in an area that has received hundreds of millions of dollars in public funding, with specific laws and design guidelines about how you are supposed to build in this area.

It isn't like someone sprung this on them by surprise. They knew about these rules before they bought the land. If I move into Heritage Hills and want to tear down a turn of the century Georgian manor and replace it with something that looks like a giant neon pink igloo, you can understand why I'll be prevented from doing that. Right?

....Right?

Rules? Like the sand ridge demo or stage center this year ? Or a bunch of others. I imagine they thought they would be treated like everyone else

Reminder that several City Council spots go to election in just two months.

This is a great time to call out the City Council on issues like these and make them take a public stand, then vote accordingly.

All new TIF's, TIF allocations and committee appointments have to be approved by the council.

I completely agree with this quote. Especially as it applies to Meg Salyer and the sixth ward. She has only advocated for big money, big oil and the chamber. She is the champion for demolition.
She has done nothing for the residents of her ward. If anyone would run against her, I think ward 6 residents could be raise funds and work door to door to help elect a new council person.

9919




Hey, check out the 5 parking garages visible in that image. We really need more of those.

:/

You are right. Downtown OKC has enough surface parking and grassy lots that there really isn't any excuse for demolishing anything at all. If I was playing SimCity, I would place the 499 Sheridan development instead on the southwest corner of Walker and Sheridan on the surface parking. Either that or fit everything in the way KanyeMo posted in that thread.

The SW corner of Walker and Sheridan is John Rex Elem. I have had a few vodkas but pretty sure you are not wanting to put it on top of the school. If so, you have had too many vodkas!

If this can be torn down (to build Madison Square Garden) anything is possible.

http://www.aplaceofsense.com/uploaded_images/Penn_Station3-739990.jpg

http://fineprintnyc.com/images/blog/old-new-york/part-4/1911-Penn-Station-Interior.jpg

That's a bit of a stretch there JTF. First off, because of demo projects like that, the country is now more focused on preservation. Not to mention the fact that when that structure was torn down, it wasn't seen in the same light as it is now. It was a terrible shame to lose, but there's a LOT of story behind that structure's demolition besides just a picture of it.

And that whole post about not moving back here.....Ill do a happy dance that yet another tea party member wont be in Oklahoma, but if you don't want to move here, why do you troll a forum solely devoted to development here?

well on that note bombermwc - peace out.

I'd like to think Urbanized and myself caused it :DI believe a careful comparison of posting times and first appearance of Steve's report indicates his report appeared before many here mentioned "possible demolition." However when I read Steve's article, I immediately equated "online" with this place, myself...

I'm seriously considering putting this in our header:

"We always feel Oklahoma City is most successful when our residents are informed, engaged and able to participate in an ongoing public process.” – Mick Cornett Oklahoma City MayorBy all means, Pete, DO IT!!!

We are going to lose this landmark Art Deco skyscraper if we don't set a good precedent with the Preftakes block.

We are going to lose this landmark Art Deco skyscraper if we don't set a good precedent with the Preftakes block.

That's a giant leap. Let me guess, you've never taken a logic class.

I was referring to comments being made on Twitter. My post, by the way, was already being written before today's discussion and would have been posted Friday if I hadn't gotten sick. Was I misled by people I trusted? Yep. I'll make sure that doesn't happen again.I was sure you were first, knowing a bit about the editorial process behind the scenes.

And I would definitely call Twitter, Facebook, and friends "rumor" since they have absolutely no fact-check requirements...

If I move into Heritage Hills and want to tear down a turn of the century Georgian manor and replace it with something that looks like a giant neon pink igloo, you can understand why I'll be prevented from doing that. Right?You mean like the Colcord Mansion on NW 13, demoed for a ho-hum office building back in the day?

You mean like the Colcord Mansion on NW 13, demoed for a ho-hum office building back in the day?

Yes but at that specific place and time, it was "better and higher use" right? That's what some people don't seem to grasp. You'll never get anything like the Colcord Mansion ever again, plus it was Charles Colcord's home for crying out loud.

Also the destruction of the Colcord Mansion was almost directly responsible for the city creating the first preservation committee if I remember correctly. Different time and place. People really need to calm down and quit trying to use scare tactics to make people think FNC is in trouble. I could honestly care less about the buildings on the Preftakes block but I would be at every meeting about FNC if it were to happen and I'm pretty sure most people feel the same way.