That doesn't even make sense if you discount the role Greg Banta played. The Smith/Corsair folks are just slum lords..

$950 for 800 sf is a GREAT deal for RENTAL in DOWNTOWN especially. In the suburbs can't you expect to pay $400 for about 400 sf of crappy apartment? I know I pay a lot more for a small 400 sf apartment outside DT Calgary.

In case anyone was wondering, 16 units altogether, not bad..

My 2 bed/bath is 960sf and runs me right @ $550/month 9this is including the "mandatory" shared water/trash pickup flat fee & mandatory renters liability insurance)...so $950 for 800sf seems rather steep to me (nearly double the cost for less sf). My apt is an older one across street from Deaconess Hosp (nw 54th & Portland). Not the Ritz but not a dump either. The finishes could be upgraded for sure but at what cost? If granite counter tops or being "downtown" are that important to you and you can afford it, then by all means, go for it. I wouldn't avoid living downtown, but there isn't a reason to live there either (my job is just off Broadway Ext, near Edmond). Just not for me.

I thought there were 6 units coming on - 2 in each building, unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Well I just got 16 by looking at the pdf fliers for each of the buildings, posted on the 1st page.

905 NW 12th: http://midtownr.com/pdf/905.pdf
909 NW 12th: http://midtownr.com/pdf/909.pdf
1217 N Francis: http://midtownr.com/pdf/1217.pdf

I stand corrected. That's a pretty good chunk of space.


Well I just got 16 by looking at the pdf fliers for each of the buildings, posted on the 1st page.

905 NW 12th: http://midtownr.com/pdf/905.pdf
909 NW 12th: http://midtownr.com/pdf/909.pdf
1217 N Francis: http://midtownr.com/pdf/1217.pdf

My 2 bed/bath is 960sf and runs me right @ $550/month 9this is including the "mandatory" shared water/trash pickup flat fee & mandatory renters liability insurance)...so $950 for 800sf seems rather steep to me (nearly double the cost for less sf). My apt is an older one across street from Deaconess Hosp (nw 54th & Portland). Not the Ritz but not a dump either. The finishes could be upgraded for sure but at what cost? If granite counter tops or being "downtown" are that important to you and you can afford it, then by all means, go for it. I wouldn't avoid living downtown, but there isn't a reason to live there either (my job is just off Broadway Ext, near Edmond). Just not for me.

Downtown/Urban living isn't for everyone, and clearly you're not one of those people. $550/mo is cheap for Oklahoma Larry, let alone anywhere else in the country. Just because it's not for you, don't knock it. Crappy outdated apartment living in suburbia isn't for me or Spartan, but you don't hear us knocking it in a thread on urban development.

Downtown/Urban living isn't for everyone, and clearly you're not one of those people. $550/mo is cheap for Oklahoma Larry, let alone anywhere else in the country. Just because it's not for you, don't knock it. Crappy outdated apartment living in suburbia isn't for me or Spartan, but you don't hear us knocking it in a thread on urban development.

LOL sorry but I had to say something, 54th and Portland is suburbia?

It's pretty damn close.

It sure isn't urban.

Absolutely 54th and Portland is suburbia. How else could you describe that area?

I'd call anything outside Portland/Wilshire/South Grand/Bryant suburbia. Basically, anything within the Grand Blvd. loop is 'the City' ... suburbia outside that... so 54th and Portland is cusp territory. Some here think anything outside of Classen/I-40/I-235/NW 13th is suburbia... I just roll my eyes at them :)

Platemaker, I think you are pretty much on the money. I might not go quite as far west as Portland, particularly that far north. But who cares really?

bouldersooner, maybe there was a verbal understanding, but that's it.
Spartan isn't alone in his feelings about the Smith brothers. Now here's the development track record for the Smiths. I'll be happy to hear how it's challenged:
The Packard Building. 201 NW 10. The Smiths sat on it for 7 years, made no visible improvements. It was boarded up with plywood painted blue. And then they sold it off for $5 million than what they paid for it. (Source: county assessor)
The Smiths have a similar track record with properties like the old office supply store on Main Street and more. I know of several prominent downtown folks who tried to buy the historic Main Street Arcade and were devastated when the Smiths bought it. Why is that? It's because they tend to sit on their properties and only sell for a price that makes redeveloping their troubled buildings harder to rehabilitate. That's the view shared by most if not every leading downtowner.
I'm ready to hear an argument as to how the Smiths have a track record of making downtown better - how they are truly developers and not simply flippers who sap strength from the downtown market.


Steve, I'll somewhat take that on. It probably appears insignificant to most people, but I remember that the Smiths (I dealt with the business partner Shawn), developed our building at 228 NE 2nd in Deep Deuce.

We were the first tenants in the old former hotel building and Shawn had the foresight to try to redevelop it into "mixed use". Having lived downtown for many years, it was probably the first downtown neighborhood "mixed-use" building that was extremely pedestrian oriented with multiple apartments overhead and sidewalks abound.

Granted, they did not renovate the building perfectly. There were noise issues and such. But the cheap rent allowed our creative company to thrive and enjoy a truly pedestrian lifestyle. In fact, you kindly wrote about it.

Now Sage occupies the space. and the restaurant owners also own the building. I think that it is safe to say that many other developers came by to look at the concept. The building was "flipped" three or four times. I had to do the yard work many months and deduct it from the rent because it was in such transition.

I will put the plug in that Corsair Cattle bought the buildings cheap, renovated them cheaply, and rented them cheaply.

If we had more reasonably priced rents downtown, and more true mixed-use buildings, downtown would be an even more exciting place to be. I think it took Shawn and his people some additional foresight and negotiating skills to pursue and acquire the Plaza Court building.

Some times "the slumlords" are exactly what you need to get creative/diverse tenants that can afford it and just fix the units up ourselves. We built out our interior by hand and enjoyed doing it. We payed a reasonable price and got exactly what we wanted, a real place in the neighborhood.

LOL sorry but I had to say something, 54th and Portland is suburbia?

LOL...I KNEW I should have put some ref in there on that....no not suburbia but not downtown either...personally see outlying communities as the burbs (Edmond, Yukon, Moore etc)...was just trying to give some perspective on sf prices.

Understand people reining in what defines as Downtown but anything within the OKC city limits is "Urban" (tech means City) any of the smaller, outlying communities are the Suburbs (Sub Urban) and those unincorporated (think undeveloped farmland) is the Rural. Personally don't really see OKC as being "Urban" the way most folks in the threads are seem to be using the term.

Urban Pioneer, curious as to who Shawn is. I'm talking about Cosair Cattle, R.D. and Scott Smith.

Urban Pioneer, curious as to who Shawn is. I'm talking about Cosair Cattle, R.D. and Scott Smith.

If memory serves, Shawn did most of the work for the Smiths, at least at the building Urban Pioneer moved into. Serious sweat equity.

Crappy outdated apartment living in suburbia isn't for me or Spartan, but you don't hear us knocking it in a thread on urban development.

Are you implying that anyone in this forum speaks for more than just themselves? I especially love how you say "you don't hear us knocking it" immediately after you said "crappy outdated apartment living in suburbia." LOL

Downtown/Urban living isn't for everyone, and clearly you're not one of those people. $550/mo is cheap for Oklahoma Larry, let alone anywhere else in the country. Just because it's not for you, don't knock it. Crappy outdated apartment living in suburbia isn't for me or Spartan, but you don't hear us knocking it in a thread on urban development.

Wasn't knocking it all. Would probably live downtown if my job was located there (am where I am because my former employer was about a mile away). Again, if Downtown living is that important to you, great, go for it. But the prices they are talking about getting for such little sf, I just don't see it.

Steve, I'll somewhat take that on. It probably appears insignificant to most people, but I remember that the Smiths (I dealt with the business partner Shawn), developed our building at 228 NE 2nd in Deep Deuce.

We were the first tenants in the old former hotel building and Shawn had the foresight to try to redevelop it into "mixed use". Having lived downtown for many years, it was probably the first downtown neighborhood "mixed-use" building that was extremely pedestrian oriented with multiple apartments overhead and sidewalks abound.

Granted, they did not renovate the building perfectly. There were noise issues and such. But the cheap rent allowed our creative company to thrive and enjoy a truly pedestrian lifestyle. In fact, you kindly wrote about it.

Now Sage occupies the space. and the restaurant owners also own the building. I think that it is safe to say that many other developers came by to look at the concept. The building was "flipped" three or four times. I had to do the yard work many months and deduct it from the rent because it was in such transition.

I will put the plug in that Corsair Cattle bought the buildings cheap, renovated them cheaply, and rented them cheaply.

If we had more reasonably priced rents downtown, and more true mixed-use buildings, downtown would be an even more exciting place to be. I think it took Shawn and his people some additional foresight and negotiating skills to pursue and acquire the Plaza Court building.

Some times "the slumlords" are exactly what you need to get creative/diverse tenants that can afford it and just fix the units up ourselves. We built out our interior by hand and enjoyed doing it. We payed a reasonable price and got exactly what we wanted, a real place in the neighborhood.

just a note they also developed the building at the corner of park and walker and i believe they still own it.

In response to Stevens question about properties that Corsair has redeveloped.
I believe they did 1114 N Walker, and have owned it for almost 20 years. Also a really cool deep duece space. They also brought on line the old Garrison Funeral home, rented it out to a couple of law firms, later sold to Cafe do Brasil. Take a look at NW 7th and hudson corridor, not a bad start. I think they saved alot of the buildings in midtown and made them available for other developers to be able to get involved in the game. I applaud them rather than condemn them.

Looks like the Palo Duro II is almost complete.

Doesn't look as good as promised but not completely bad either, especially for section 8.

Palo Duro II is not Section 8. It is special needs housing.

Palo Duro II is not Section 8. It is special needs housing.

it is sec 8 the HUD sec 8 sign was up for months ... now it may also be "special needs" but it is a variety of sec 8

just a note Stella is now open

Thanks Boulder. I meant to ask does Stella have a website up yet?

they have twitter and facebook ... I don't think they have a website up yet

I am definitely looking forward to visiting Stella... cool design

I am definitely looking forward to visiting Stella... cool design

I went last night, it's awesome. Get the wood-fired pizza. Very modern interior, wish it didn't have that parking lot on Walker but otherwise a very nice addition to midtown. OKC has two stellar LOCAL Italian places downtown: Trattoria il Centro and now Stella.

I ate there too and had one of their pizzas. It was delicious and very different from those at any of the other wood-fired pizza restaurants. Not that I don't like the others, but the variety is nice. The decor is great. The menu isn't terribly large, but our waitress said it would be expanding.

The Red Cross building is no more as of last week. I wonder if they've had any interest from developers in that site.

Could be, in this undated article (looks fairly recent, but building hadn't been torn down yet) Asbestos-Ridden American Red Cross Building Blocks Urban Redevelopment in Okalahoma City (http://www.mesotheliomaweb.org/jan201005b.htm)

The Red Cross building is no more as of last week. I wonder if they've had any interest from developers in that site.

It was knocked down Friday, just 2 days ago.

Yay for more eternally-vacant lots in Midtown.

Yes, metro..Friday is last week.

I don't think this lot will be eternally vacant. I'm not the most optimistic person these days, BUT the city does own the site and is currently seeking a redeveloper. And OCURA is not even involved, to my knowledge. There's no way we can screw this up.

Yes, metro..Friday is last week.

I don't think this lot will be eternally vacant. I'm not the most optimistic person these days, BUT the city does own the site and is currently seeking a redeveloper. And OCURA is not even involved, to my knowledge. There's no way we can screw this up.

LOL ... that remains to be seen (but we can hope)

There's no way we can screw this up.

I won't count on that...
http://s3.amazonaws.com/newsok-photos/787262/lead620.jpg


Anyways, according the materplan that site is supposed to be "green space" (lol) http://www.okc.gov/Planning/tenthstreet/10thstreetreport.pdf (http://www.okc.gov/Planning/tenthstreet/10thstreetreport.pdf)

Yay for more eternally-vacant lots in Midtown. However, it is better than looking at a dirty eyesore of a dilapidated building.

Other than the asbestos (which was removed prior) I don't see how the Red Cross building was an eyesore. It had lots of potential. On the other hand, Browns Bakery, has fallen into serious disrepair, especially the southern portion of their building, broken out windows, boarded up windows, etc., yet no one fuses about them.

Yep, I thought the Red Cross building looked just fine. Maybe it would have been prohibitively expensive for the asbestos abatement.

I won't count on that...
http://s3.amazonaws.com/newsok-photos/787262/lead620.jpg


Anyways, according the materplan that site is supposed to be "green space" (lol) http://www.okc.gov/Planning/tenthstreet/10thstreetreport.pdf (http://www.okc.gov/Planning/tenthstreet/10thstreetreport.pdf)

Well. I wouldn't mind it then. That plan is amazing in my opinion. But we'll see how much of it actually comes to fruition. I hear there is funding for the Classen extension? Can anyone comfirm this? I think it would be a kick-start for development in that area if it is completed.

And are you saying you don't like that conceptual rendering Cuatro? Although I'd like to see it qith a brick facade, I think it would be a pleasing project for that corner; it's built to the sidewalk, looks to be mixed use, etc. But alas, it's just a conceptual drawing so we'll see what becomes of that lot now.

Yep, I thought the Red Cross building looked just fine. Maybe it would have been prohibitively expensive for the asbestos abatement.

As I stated in the post above yours, they already removed the asbestos before demolition.

"What could possibly go wrong...."

As I stated in the post above yours, they already removed the asbestos before demolition.

Hilarious, then. I thought it was nice - 4 little storefronts + the backbuilding. Where could they possibly have found a place to build residential in midtown without tearing something down? -2 buildings on 10th this month alone.

Yeah, you can't just demolish an asbestos-clogged building without doing the asbestos abatement because then the particles will be spread like a cloud of dust throughout Midtown as a result of the demolition. That would be a mini environmental disaster.

I actually hadn't even thought of that. I will admit, I never even really thought of this building as a problem--I never really thought of it as anything honestly, never noticed it. The auto garage across the street or, already mentioned, Brown's--although Brown's is frequented by the Chamber of Commerce crowd, so they're probably safe.

We all know it. This is the age of demolition. That's all we do in this town anymore. Aside from that incredibly negative thought, I will say that this particular demolition..the ONLY one out of all of them, hasn't YET turned negative in my book because to my knowledge the city is seeking the right kind of replacement infill. A good could come out of this still, unlike the others.

Exactly Spartan, someone was trying to throw in the asbestos thing into renovating something like the India Temple into the mix (as being part of the cost-prohibitive factor). Seemed to be an expense no matter which way you go because as I understand it, the problem with asbestos is when the fibers become airborne...as long as they remain intact, there is no serious problem. It would seem much worse with a complete demo (as you described) than just a reno.

The City is running into this with the buildings they purchased in the Core to Shore/Park area. They have to safely remove it all first before they can bulldoze it.

Yeah, you can't just demolish an asbestos-clogged building without doing the asbestos abatement because then the particles will be spread like a cloud of dust throughout Midtown as a result of the demolition.

I just figured that was why they were spraying the debris down with a fire hose.

We all know it. This is the age of demolition. That's all we do in this town anymore. Aside from that incredibly negative thought, I will say that this particular demolition..the ONLY one out of all of them, hasn't YET turned negative in my book because to my knowledge the city is seeking the right kind of replacement infill. A good could come out of this still, unlike the others.


Actually I don't think it's the City that is "seeking the right kind of infill," but it's the owners of the property, MidTown Renaissance.

Metro...MidTown Renaissance does not own the property. In fact, Mickey Clagg has even stopped calling it MidTown Renaissance and I'd not be surprised if all the banners have been taken down, even though he is definitely still moving forward..close to finishing a few projects (hopefully).

The site is owned by the Medical Business District Corridor, Inc. And now to pull a metro, you can read about them here:
http://www.okc.gov/Planning/tenthstreet/index.html

Either way, my point was that it's not the City as you implied.

Medical Business District Corridor, Inc. IS the City..

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/4449/meddis.jpg

To help bring some peace...I believe this is technically considered a quasi-government agency.

If we are talking about the Red Cross building, the CIty does/did appear to own it. From the aticle I linked in #178 Asbestos-Ridden American Red Cross Building Blocks Urban Redevelopment in Okalahoma City (http://www.mesotheliomaweb.org/jan201005b.htm)

According to Oklahoma City Planning Department Director Robbie Kienzle, the asbestos-laden, aging and abandoned Red Cross building is an ‘eyesore', but one soon to be removed thanks to the city's April 2008 purchase of the property for $690,000, and a possible U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) grant for $200,000 to remove the asbestos so the building can be torn down.

The ironic thing is that was a very small structure. For it to cost $200,000 for asbestos abatement makes me wonder how much a full restoration would have cost. Maybe $300,000?

And woah woah. How much did the City pay for that? I thought they bought it a lot cheaper than that. I wonder if any got rich off of that deal..

I stand corrected, I thought Howard/Clagg were part of a business group that owned Medical Business District, Inc.

Fair enough.

Is anyone else astonished that the city has put $900,000 buckaroos into obtaining and clearing this site? There had better be some good infill proposals, because that land is not worth a mil.

WOW!! $900,000

Doesn't the master plan from the city show that to be a "green space"?

I'm not sure I trust the article to have that $600,000+ figure correctly. Maybe Steve would know..


Could be, in this undated article (looks fairly recent, but building hadn't been torn down yet) Asbestos-Ridden American Red Cross Building Blocks Urban Redevelopment in Okalahoma City (http://www.mesotheliomaweb.org/jan201005b.htm)


Yep, I thought the Red Cross building looked just fine.

I agree. That article really exaggerates the eyesore factor, making it sound like something the size of St. Anthony was really in the way of development. The Red Cross building was pretty small and IMO just forgettable. Not an eyesore but also nothing you drive by and think, that could be something great. I won't particularly miss it. As Spartan said, the auto shop across the street is MUCH more of an eyesore.


As I stated in the post above yours, they already removed the asbestos before demolition.

I think removing asbestos to allow reuse of the building is more expensive than just removing it for demolition, but I could be wrong.

Western retailer headed to Automotive Alley
By April Wilkerson
The Journal Record
Posted: 08:49 PM Monday, May 10, 2010

OKLAHOMA CITY – Automobile Alley is preparing to welcome a retailer that will bring a new flair to the area.

Rawhide, a high-end Western furniture, apparel and accessories store in Norman, is preparing to move to 1007 N. Broadway Ave. in Oklahoma City.

Angie Bailey, owner, said she’s making the move for several reasons: Her in-state customers are from Edmond and Oklahoma City, plus she wants to be a part of the growth in downtown Oklahoma City. She plans to open by July 1.

“I wanted to jump on what’s going on in downtown Oklahoma City,” she said. “This will be a lot better for local people.”

But local residents don’t constitute the majority of Rawhide’s customers.

Bailey estimates that 90 percent of her clientele is out of state and comes from advertisements she places in Cowboys & Indians magazine.

“I’m a destination store,” she said. “It’s not what you’ll see in your average Western store. Our customers want what they want, and price is not an issue. It’s finding what they want.”

Women’s Western apparel is Bailey’s top seller. She also carries belts, buckles, jewelry, rugs and furniture. She works with suppliers around the nation to find the pieces she knows her customers want, she said. And as an interior designer, she’s had input into her fall collection, which will feature pieces that are more authentic than what she’s carried in the past: an Indian dress with fringes, a leather shirt that could be worn as a jacket, Western gauntlet gloves, and moccasins made from bison.

“People love things that are more authentic,” she said, “but they’re a little modernized so people can wear them today.”

Bailey started Rawhide in 2007 after retiring as a furniture representative. She was always traveling out of state to find the “ranch lifestyle” clothing she wanted, so she decided to open a store and stock it with the items she liked.

With the move, she’s adding space: Her 2,650 square feet in Norman will grow to 5,300 square feet in Automobile Alley. With the extra room, she plans to add more furniture and devote more of her resources to interior design work. She estimates her business will increase by 10 times.

Steve Mason, owner of the historic building she will occupy and a member of the Automobile Alley Association board, said Rawhide’s high-end merchandise and her status as a destination store is a boon to the area.

“This is an important step forward for retail in the downtown business district, particularly Automobile Alley,” Mason said. “I expect the value of her inventory will be the largest value of any retailer in downtown Oklahoma City.”

Mason also has gone through the process to place the building on the National Register of Historic Places. The structure, which was built in 1918, has been home to a variety of auto repair and sales businesses over the years.

Western retailer headed to Automotive Alley (http://journalrecord.com/2010/05/10/western-retailer-headed-to-automotive-alley-real-estate/)

while I agree this is a boon for AAlley and retail in downtown, I think it would have been a much bigger and better boon for Stockyard's City. It would have been much more appropriate in Stockyard's City, since the vibe of AAlley is urban, modern, contemporary, and 'not western' and I think the city should really develop SC into it's WESTERN/Cowboy destination and let AAlley and Midtown become true urban "CITY" hot spots.

But nonetheless, hopefully this new store will help build downtown and it is a 'destination' retail shoppe. It also is a retail location, although I'd hope they would not totally vacate Norman, if only for Norman's sake.

I highly doubt the claim Mason made that this will be downtown's most valuable inventory - 'ever heard of BC Clark, flagship is down the street and Im sure they have the largest value of a downtown retailer. ...'

Very good points about Stock Yards City and BC Clark Hot Rod . . . it's still interesting how little thought people give to what they say that winds up in print.

Good news for the emerging Steve Mason 9th Street real estate empire, but the facts are a little off. Tenna Hicks mens clothing store in the Corporate Tower has a several hundred K in inventory . . . has been successful for many years . . . understands downtown specialty retail better than anyone around.

I have seen that this building is in process of being remodeled. It will be apartments for lease. Approx. 12 units available.

901 N.W. 13th
http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/sketches/picfile/2711/R045641650001tA.jpg

HOT ROD

The problem with Stockyard City is that it is full. There are some automotive businesses that should be converted to retail, but they aren't. If Stockyard City had buildings ready to move in, then I am sure it would have been an option, but currently none are ready. A developer or architect needs to go in there and rennovate some of the businesses along Exchange Ave. There are some lots and metal buildings that could be torn down or used to build a district hotel. The area already has retail and stores all it needs is a boutique hotel to make it an official destination.

Broadway has so much potential for retail. I am looking forward to seeing the store open.

while I agree this is a boon for AAlley and retail in downtown, I think it would have been a much bigger and better boon for Stockyard's City. It would have been much more appropriate in Stockyard's City, since the vibe of AAlley is urban, modern, contemporary, and 'not western' and I think the city should really develop SC into it's WESTERN/Cowboy destination and let AAlley and Midtown become true urban "CITY" hot spots.

But nonetheless, hopefully this new store will help build downtown and it is a 'destination' retail shoppe. It also is a retail location, although I'd hope they would not totally vacate Norman, if only for Norman's sake.

I highly doubt the claim Mason made that this will be downtown's most valuable inventory - 'ever heard of BC Clark, flagship is down the street and Im sure they have the largest value of a downtown retailer. ...'

Hotrod,

She knows what she's doing and Auto Alley is better for her than Stockyards would be. Lorec Ranch did NOT do well in Stockyards. And to quell your concerns, Rawhide is very chic and will fit in well in the area. It could possibly be a boon for retail in general on Automobile Alley.