It sounds like the only financing these days will be for rentals anyway. So, it may be a moot point for awhile.

Way to many apartments in Oklahoma City, with the label "Luxury Apartments".....what you have a pool and a tennis court? How about get rid of the nasty counter tops, that 80's flooring, and those ancient faucets. So many apartments in OKC are disappointing. Why does Dallas get nicer apartments in the same price range? Example, best friend in Dallas pays, 900 for a 1 bedroom in uptown, private underground parking, for him, guests and family, no on street parking, wood flooring, granite counter tops, stainless appliances, w/d included, modern cabinets with stainless steel handles, glass tile backsplash, and pool with dj and bbq. I would like to see this in OKC. Correct me on this guys, am I missing something? What is the deal with apartments here?

Go check out The Lincoln. The apartments I've seen there are very nice and match your description (minus wood floors). And they're cheaper than 900 for a 1 bedroom.

The Lincoln at Central Park is not an urban development, it's at Lincoln and I-44 on your way up to Edmond. Downtown is the size of an ant from those apartments. Just look at my avatar that I shot from Broadway and 63rd..

And they aren't urban/sophisticated/chic or anything else Tanenbaum has tried to market them as. They are cookie cutter suburban apartments.

But, you've usually got old apartments and houses that the hipsters move into before the yuppies move into and ultimately fix up. We don't have the neighborhoods of older multistory buildings in which that can happen, typically if you're building de novo for people who need cheaper housing developers build cheaper buildings that don't age well. It may make more sense to build higher end new buildings which, as they age, may drop in price allowing the people with lower incomes to move in. I realize that runs counter to what most people think here but if we've got cheaper new housing, it will never ultimately be renovatable for the wealthier because it won't have the charm of older buildings in other cities.

Great points. I think we can split the difference by providing a greater variety of housing at different price points.

One thought: Why aren't we seeing more apartment rehabs of the upper stories in Auto Alley? There seems like a lot of opportunity there.

I'm not suggesting that the housing be "cheap." I think it still needs to be well built and high quality.

Guru -- we should be hearing about something like that coming along soon actually. I think the Pauls, but I'm not sure, are the ones who are fixing to put 5-6 loft units in above the bank on the east side of Broadway over by Schlegel Bicycles. I forget which bank, it's the beige/tan one with the corner awning.

So many of the buildings in A-Alley are corporate offices that are immaculate, very tres moderne on the interior. They've used up all of the building for that. BMI and Ackerman for example.

Guru -- we should be hearing about something like that coming along soon actually. I think the Pauls, but I'm not sure, are the ones who are fixing to put 5-6 loft units in above the bank on the east side of Broadway over by Schlegel Bicycles. I forget which bank, it's the beige/tan one with the corner awning.

So many of the buildings in A-Alley are corporate offices that are immaculate, very tres moderne on the interior. They've used up all of the building for that. BMI and Ackerman for example.

Well that is just dumb. Auto Alley should be mixed use. It is perfect for retail, residential and some office. There's too much office use right now. The mix is wrong.

You would be surprised how much retail there is along A-Alley. Bicycle Alley, Coffee Slingers, Schlegel Bicycles, Red Prime Steakhouse, CD Warehouse, new wine store, etc. I think the absolute perfect place for an Urban Outfitters would be 1101 Broadway, when they get that finished. I just wish it would have lofts instead of office above. Same for 1100 Broadway, the 2-story across the street.

Add the 9th Street business and MidTown in close proximity and you have a very cool district. I think A-Alley has the most potential as a "main street" for communities on the north side of downtown. It just needs the surrounding area to fill in, and it could be something quite cool. It always reminds me of M Street in Georgetown. I really wish we could get something like that going in OKC.

I agree with Guru. Too much office in Automobile Alley. Not enough retail and residential.

But, you've usually got old apartments and houses that the hipsters move into before the yuppies move into and ultimately fix up. We don't have the neighborhoods of older multistory buildings in which that can happen, typically if you're building de novo for people who need cheaper housing developers build cheaper buildings that don't age well. It may make more sense to build higher end new buildings which, as they age, may drop in price allowing the people with lower incomes to move in. I realize that runs counter to what most people think here but if we've got cheaper new housing, it will never ultimately be renovatable for the wealthier because it won't have the charm of older buildings in other cities.

They may not be on every corner, but the existing old apartment buildings are already filling up with young professional types. Where they once were abandoned or crack houses, they are now legit apartments for people somewhat on a budget. There are a lot that could still use some renovations to get to that point (there's a great one next to the gas station at 5th and Walker). That's our entry level housing for downtown. Upper floors of A-Alley can be the same. Some buildings can be higher end like Sieber. Then there is room for expensive condos and some middle of the road newly constructed luxury apartments. I still think Legacy got it right as an urban development, even if it has suburban aesthetics.

Legacy is a basic project that works. Henderson did a great job with the retail tenant mix.

Legacy is a basic project that works. Henderson did a great job with the retail tenant mix.

Reminds me of a quote in an article I read the other day - "It’s not great architecture by a long shot. But it’s good urban design." Found it in an article about Boston's convention center (the quote refers to Philly).

Expanded convention center must do more than get bigger - The Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/ae/theater_arts/articles/2009/12/20/expanded_convention_center_must_do_more_than_get_b igger/?page=full)

Thanks for that article. Looks like Boston's mainstream media is preaching the same things I've been trying to tell OKC about convention centers.

From journalrecord.com:

Movement in Midtown
Reporter Tom Lindley says it looks like some new projects may be coming on line soon in Midtown, while others may be just getting underway. He’ll be following that up for Friday’s paper.

I wonder what's going on?

I suspect he's about to do a round-up of things that are already well-known: apartments coming to the Kline and Hadden Hall, plans to renovate 1212 N Walker (he'll be forced to speculate because Howard and Clagg aren't talking yet), the arrival of a new restaurant next to 1492 New World Cuisine, the opening of the antique store, etc....

Some competition for Steve, eh? Just kidding.

Competition is good. More stories. More things to read up on. More excellent articles.

But of course, when there's not much going on to report on, then I don't suppose competition is good.

I can't wait for the story.

Well what people need to realize is that Steve has been around for so long that he knows more about these developments than the developers themselves almost--if they were smart they'd ask him for his thoughts on the likelihood of their development going forward. So sometimes when he knows about a project he just decides for himself that he's not going to report on it if he knows it's not a serious proposal.

It's sort of an age old dilemma.. do you report on rumors, and is there any merit in doing so? One side could argue that it's unethical and you ruin your credibility and especially when dealing with business deals, you sort of get taken advantage of as being the PR for some of these projects that are just trying to attract investors.

But on the other side, there's often a lot of truth in rumors, and when some big players are involved in a rumor or a very uncooked proposal that can still be newsworthy just because of who is involved in it. Plus rumors are interesting nonetheless, and they prove that stuff is at least happening and ideas are being tossed around, because in the end, "no news is still news." Rumors sort of supplant a "state" of no news so that outsiders looking in don't get the impression that a district is completely stalled, development-wise.

Actually I have utmost respect for Tom Lindley. He was briefly my editor in the early 2000s. Great writer, great reporter. Loved his reporting on Tar Creek. I'll be looking forward to what he's got Friday and I didn't mean for my comment to come off as a diss. I'm not aware of any real deals out there other than Howard and Clagg and they're not talking yet. I also do not want to come off as a know-it-all, and I realize my previous comment might look just like that. So I apologize. And maybe I'll be surprised...

Tom Lindley is a great reporter -- and so is Steve. This is good for OKC to have a couple of sharp guys on the beat.

For those of you who don't know Tom, he was managing editor of the Detroit News before coming to OKC with Stan Tiner in 1999 to "remake" The Oklahoman. Won't get into that story, but Tom went from editing to being a special projects writer (which was when I believe he did the Tar Creek stories), and then was a columnist and then a capitol reporter. He left the state for a while, then went to work as a capitol reporter at the Tulsa World. He was one of the many they let go last year.
With Tom at the JR just know I've got some serious competition... and I'm ok w/ that. In fact, I'm more than ok. This ought to be fun.

Can someone with full online JR access please post today's Midtown Update article.

I did not see the story in print or online today. Did I miss something?

I did not see the story in print or online today. Did I miss something?

No, I didn't see it either. It might come up later today for Monday.

And still not today. Hmmm... maybe there's not all that much "Movement in Midtown" after all (and I can seriously appreciate Tom Lindley not capitalizing the 't' in town).

Just saw this in the JR:

Movement in Midtown

Reporter Tom Lindley continues to collect information about some new projects that may be coming on line soon in Midtown. Stay tuned and check Friday’s (Jan 29) paper for the full report.

Looks like it wasn't this past Friday, it's this coming Friday.

they changed the date

they changed the date

Yep. In the original article it said "Stay tuned and check Friday’s paper for the full report." Now they inserted the date it would be up, January 29th.

Someone posted yesterday in the comments section "When are you finally going to publish this story, I thought it was going to be last Friday. Haven’t seen anything yet."

I guess we should know more in the next couple of days.

Yeah that was me

What likely happened was that editorial leadership decided to promote a story that wasn't finished. Whenever possible, I try to at least have all my interviews and photos nailed down before going for a promo...

These Walls: Park Plaza District – Oklahoma City
By Tom Lindley
The Journal Record
Posted: 08:16 PM Friday, January 29, 2010

OKLAHOMA CITY – This little corner of downtown was once the land of Lincolns.

They glistened in a giant showroom that mirrored walls, a terrazzo floor and windows that stretch to the sky. Made of steel and marble slabs, the building that once housed a Fred Jones dealership was tucked unobtrusively into the hillside in a Frank Lloyd Wright manner on the northwest corner of Walker and NW Fourth.

On the opposite corner, the other behemoth in the car kingdom, shiny new luxury Cadillacs were sold by the Greenleaf dealership and serviced and driven up a ramp to the roof for safekeeping.

Then, one day, all the cars were gone, driven out by the ravages of time and the call of the suburbs.

What was left was the kind of deal only Rick Dowell, president of Dowell Properties, could love.

“When I got here, you couldn’t give this property away,” Dowell said.

So, naturally, he bought as many buildings as he could on the forlorn side of town, six parcels and 14 acres in all, in what was recently named the Park Plaza District.

What was he thinking, the conventional real estate brain trust wondered?

Adding to the curiosity, Dowell, a former economics professor, does have the appearance of a man distracted by his own thoughts.

But judging how Midtown Plaza looks these days, you might conclude that Dowell is onto something.

For proof, wait 15 minutes and the 73-foot-high clock tower he had erected at the intersection of the old auto plaza will chime in. It’s got 300 pieces of wrought iron, took his welder two years to construct in his spare time and once went into spasms when President George W. Bush adjusted daylight savings time.

But it’s there to serve a purpose other than to keep Dowell on schedule.
“Before, all we had here was a bunch of derelicts, so this gives the area character,” he said.

The reality is that the clock tower, for all its punctuality and stately presence, is not why Midtown Plaza and the Park Plaza District are ticking along at a fairly rapid rental clip these days. It has more to do with location (the heart of the city is a short walk away), with the availability of parking (a gift from the car dealerships) and a frugal business model that involves Dowell serving one way or the other as designer, contractor and property manager with the help of others in the family business.

Dowell has rented 120,000 square feet in about 48 months to 47 tenants.

That’s all the space he has renovated so far, and a lot of it has been leased 10,000 feet at a time to a younger clientele that wants to be near downtown and appreciates the grandeur of the older buildings, but wants convenient parking.

Some of his tenants have opened shop in the old Fred Jones dealership at 501 N. Walker Ave., which was built in 1947 and features 37,000 square feet, 23-foot ceilings, three mezzanines, lots of concrete and marble slabs on the exterior.

“It was built to look flat, to blend in to the countryside,” Dowell said. “Well, we got zero interest in that, so we felt we had to do something to improve its architecture.”

Dowell, who bought the property from the Ford Motor Co., removed the green awning and effectively raised the height of the building by installing cast stone columns and a balcony.

Other tenants prefer a building at 500 N. Walker that Dowell said was one of the city’s first supermarkets when it was built around 1920. It contains an 840-square-foot reinforced concrete safe that was once used by a furrier and is now an attorney’s office.

Dowell’s most striking architectural feat is the new office building he constructed on what was a parking lot on the southwest corner of the intersection. It is modeled after an old convent in Laredo where his grandmother grew up.

With its limestone face, 75-foot bell tower and a tile roof, it looks like it’s been there forever, which Dowell said was exactly the point.

“People come by and asked me what church that was,” he said. “They don’t believe it’s a new building.”

Next in line for completion is the Cadillac building at 400 N. Walker Ave. It sat the market for almost five years before Dowell made it his first Midtown-area acquisition in 1999.

Before it’s completed, Dowell will have spent more than 10 years preparing the 64,000 square feet building for occupancy. He’s had to remove a ramp that was built to last, install a fire protection system, navigate around 2-foot-thick concrete floors and prepare it for as many as 30 professional offices.

The extended timetable is OK with Dowell, who first entered the real estate market in 1988 in the student housing and apartment market in Norman.

“I believe you should buy something in the right location and hold it forever,” he said.

Since he started his company, Dowell said he has only sold one piece of property, to someone who had a lease-purchase agreement.

“The more you buy and sell the more you increase the chance of making a mistake,” he said.

http://journalrecord.com/2010/01/29/these-walls-park-plaza-district-–-oklahoma-city-real-estate/

When I think Midtown, I think Plaza Court, St. Anthony's, and 10th Street - not Dowell's properties. They're located downtown.

wow, disappointing article for the wait.

I'm not surprised. I'm working on something a bit more ambitious, but it's proving to be tough getting the right folks to speak up. Metro, maybe I should bring you along to do some arm twisting or smooth talking to get it done!

'Park Plaza District'??? Gimme a break!

Looks like we finally got the name of the Italian restaurant going next door (south) of 1492. It's called Stella. Video on NewsOK, although I think it's the weirdest self promo video ever and the owner doesn't make much sense or talk much about the actual restaurant.

NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/multimedia/video/64422196001)

Looks like we finally got the name of the Italian restaurant going next door (south) of 1492. It's called Stella. Video on NewsOK, although I think it's the weirdest self promo video ever and the owner doesn't make much sense or talk much about the actual restaurant.

NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/multimedia/video/64422196001)

If nothing else, he aptly demonstrates not everyone is comfortable with a camera pointed at them. Luck to his venture, and to him and the missus all the same.

Midtown making headway
By Tom Lindley
The Journal Record
Posted: 09:37 PM Tuesday, February 9, 2010


OKLAHOMA CITY – Saving buildings is hard work these days, but that doesn’t mean Midtown revivalists have given up their quest.

Developers Bob Howard and Mickey Clagg, two of Midtown’s most ardent disciples, hit the streets early Tuesday to preview three newly renovated residential properties at NW 12th and Francis Avenue and address lingering questions about the future of Midtown.

Unlike four years ago when Midtown’s recovery roared out of the gate, this time they didn’t bother to shoot off fireworks when a trial balloon seems to be more the order of the day given the uncertainty of the real estate market and the economy.

“We will use these three to gauge what demand is like in the market,” said Clagg, president of Midtown Renaissance properties.

Most everyone with a major stake in Midtown agrees that the market has changed. What’s harder to predict is when or if Midtown will fulfill Howard’s vision of it as a place that feels like a township where “people can live, work, eat and walk … like they did 50 years ago.”

Apart from the economy, Midtown’s future could be influenced most heavily by St. Anthony Hospital’s expansion plans and by the amount of interest the former home of the American Red Cross at 323 NW 10th generates among developers along the 10th Street Medical Corridor District.

The original catalyst for Midtown’s resurgence, St. Anthony’s is developing plans for a new building on the east side of the hospital in 2013 that will house a new emergency department and critical care and inpatient units.

“It’s still in the planning stage,” hospital spokeswoman Sandra Payne said Tuesday. “That’s all we can tell you right now. But we like being in Midtown and part of its growth.”

Payne also said there is a possibility that a physicians’ group could invest in a new dialysis building near the hospital.

“It’s too early to provide any specifics,” Payne said.

Midtown also could profit from development of the 10th Street Medical Corridor District.

Russell Claus, Oklahoma City planning director, said a Request for Proposal for the development of the block that housed the Red Cross building has generated a number of inquiries and he expects bids will be submitted for the project this spring.

That might help break the financial logjam that is holding back Midtown, developers say.

Large projects, in particular, are the toughest to sell right now, said developer Chuck Wiggin, which partly explains why the area has trended to smaller commercial and retail space and rental units, rather than condominiums.

One result has been that Wiggin’s Overholser Green project at the former site of Mercy Hospital remains on hold with the Urban Renewal Authority and will have to be scaled back to be more compatible with financial market conditions.

“The project as originally designed and proposed is not feasible, but we are still looking for other ways to do a project that is as close as possible to the original project,” Wiggin said.

As originally approved, it called for 109 units, spread out among four buildings, starting at about $350,000 per unit.

While the condo sales market has caved in, Wiggin said he is encouraged by Midtown’s ability to attract more businesses and the success of those already in operation.

Developer R.D. Smith said he doesn’t know what comes next for Midtown, either, although he said the natural barriers provided by St. Anthony’s, downtown and Heritage Hills remain major selling points.

Smith, along with his brother, Scott, started buying up Midtown property in the late 1980s when it was what R.D. Smith called a disaster zone.

“It’s beginning to mature but there’s a lot of development to be done because the economy has put some things on hold,” R.D. Smith said.

The Smiths, who operate the Corsair Cattle Co., sold about half of their property to Midtown Renaissance, including Plaza Court, which Smith said has become an important destination point in Midtown.

Today, they are concentrating on developing office space at Midtown Village on NW Seventh and Hudson, where about 50,000 square feet of mixed-use space has been leased.

“We are past the pioneering point,” R.D. Smith said of Midtown’s comeback. “What will ultimately revive Midtown is that people will want to be around a vibrant core.”

The three residential properties Midtown Renaissance will soon have available for lease fit different subsets of the urban experience, from the more traditional style two-bedroom concept at 905 NW 12th to the more open, transitional one-bedroom look at 900 NW 12th, to the edginess of the modern one-bedroom apartments at 1217 N. Francis Ave.

While the units will serve as a test case for how and when Midtown Renaissance develops its other properties, Clagg said work will continue in Midtown in 2010.

Clagg said plans for the Packard building at 10th and Robinson are under review by the National Park Service and administrators of the historic preservation program.

Clagg said Hadden Hall, just west of the Packard, recently received National Park Service approval for rehabilitation as an 18-unit apartment building and that construction should begin this spring on the project. He also said the Osler and the Cline building are in various stages of historic preservation process, while construction plans for 12112 N. Walker are under development.

The Midtown Plaza is about 95 percent occupied, Clagg said, and discussions are under way with other potential tenants.

“We have other properties around the city and the only ones that we get calls on a regular basis are in Midtown,” Clagg said. “We’ve signed several leases in the past few days.”

Midtown making headway (http://journalrecord.com/2010/02/09/with-projects-in-the-works-midtown-real-estate/)

Disappointing article for the wait.

I don't think the three completed residential projects coming online are necessarily a great indicator of the state of the market if they don't lease well. It could be due to their location toward classen blvd, away from the heart of midtown if interest flags. On the flip side, if they do lease well it's a great indicator of pent-up demand.

Hadden Hall and the others will be the true bellweathers, imo.

I thought it was a good article.

R.D. Smith of Corsair Cattle Co a "Downtown Developer" = wow.

Oklahoma City Midtown neighborhood enters time of Renaissance
BY STEVE LACKMEYER The Oklahoman
Published: February 11, 2010

For the past two years Bob Howard and Mickey Clagg have stayed quiet about their plans for MidTown Renaissance — an ambitious neighborhood-wide makeover started by their former partner Greg Banta.

On Tuesday the silence ended with Howard and Clagg showing off their first completed apartments and offices for lease at NW 12 and Francis.

The pair said the corner will be a market test for how they proceed with redevelopment of their other 30 properties. After successfully developing a string of restaurants and shops at NW 10 and Walker, they’re hoping to learn from the first apartments and offices at NW 12 and Francis what will work best throughout the rest of the neighborhood.

Read the rest of Steve's article at:

NewsOK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-midtown-neighborhood-enters-renaissance/article/3438741?custom_click=lead_story_title)

I thought it was a good article.

R.D. Smith of Corsair Cattle Co a "Downtown Developer" = wow.

who do you think developed plaza court and some of the original leases before selling it all to midtown ren.

Went to the U.N. social last night and toured the 3 new MidTown properties. Very nice finishes for the most part. I think they will lease out quick, but the price points are on the high end, I think the cheapest start at like $800-$900 but most were more than that. I got flyers that I'll try to scan in soon.

Regarding the three Midtown properties, here are links to the flyers.

905 NW 12th: http://midtownr.com/pdf/905.pdf
909 NW 12th: http://midtownr.com/pdf/909.pdf
1217 N Francis: http://midtownr.com/pdf/1217.pdf

Thanks George, can you post prices for each of the properties?

Metro, you're welcome. Sorry I don't have the prices. (I just found the flyers on the Midtown Renaissance (http://www.midtownr.com) site while checking for more information after the open house.)

$1.25 per sqft. Smaller units (800 sqft) start at $950, larger units run about $1550. Little high IMO.

Some of them were like $1750-$1850. I thought it was a little high, but the finishes are nice. They are going to make a killing off rent. I added it up to about $6500/mo for the 4 unit building.

soooo they are remodeled houses.... cool, and im glad they have been remodeled, but not that big of a deal for midtown if you ask me. Yes, I know they are testing the market for bigger and better things to come/Im sure they will be 100% leased, but midtown will be never be that exciting if its just a bunch of old remodeled houses thats called "midtown" and considered the "vibrant" area.

2 of them are remodeled houses, one of them is a 4 story what was probably an old multi-unit housing, hotel or office building originally.

I don't know if I'd consider $1.25 too high for what you're getting there. I asked them last night if there were any "mandatory" other costs (i.e. flat utility fee, parking) like you get at Park Harvey and others. I don't really think that the flat utility fee is a fair deal. I'm hardly home and I pay the same rate as my gamer neighbor who is running like 12 computers at once. NOT FAIR! The MidtownR lady said there is a $25/month fee that would cover water, sewer, and trash and that you would deal directly with OG&E, Cox, and/or AT&T for the other stuff. My total would definitely be less than $125/month or whatever craziness I currently pay. These units are really decked out, and I'll try to move there when my lease expires in summer (assuming there is vacancy).

Metro: Not to be the correction police, but none of them are remodeled houses. They told me last night that one of two story buildings is a duplex and was historically a duplex. One is an 8plex that was historically a several unit apartment building. And the other building, the brick one, is a 3 story, 6 unit building that historically had several units, too.

who do you think developed plaza court and some of the original leases before selling it all to midtown ren.

Greg Banta developed Plaza Court. And it's revisionist history to say anything else.
The Smith brothers used some bombing recovery money to do some basic renovations and then signed a lease with Subway. They then sold it to Banta, who about that time was bringing in Howard and Clagg as partners.
Irmas, the YMCA, McNellies, Prairie Thunder were all Banta deals.

Greg Banta developed Plaza Court. And it's revisionist history to say anything else.
The Smith brothers used some bombing recovery money to do some basic renovations and then signed a lease with Subway. They then sold it to Banta, who about that time was bringing in Howard and Clagg as partners.
Irmas, the YMCA, McNellies, Prairie Thunder were all Banta deals.

sorry but the mcnellies lease was already a verbal agreement before the building was sold to banta

That doesn't even make sense if you discount the role Greg Banta played. The Smith/Corsair folks are just slum lords..

$950 for 800 sf is a GREAT deal for RENTAL in DOWNTOWN especially. In the suburbs can't you expect to pay $400 for about 400 sf of crappy apartment? I know I pay a lot more for a small 400 sf apartment outside DT Calgary.

In case anyone was wondering, 16 units altogether, not bad..

In case anyone was wondering, 16 units altogether, not bad..

I thought there were 6 units coming on - 2 in each building, unless I'm misunderstanding you.

bouldersooner, maybe there was a verbal understanding, but that's it.
Spartan isn't alone in his feelings about the Smith brothers. Now here's the development track record for the Smiths. I'll be happy to hear how it's challenged:
The Packard Building. 201 NW 10. The Smiths sat on it for 7 years, made no visible improvements. It was boarded up with plywood painted blue. And then they sold it off for $5 million than what they paid for it. (Source: county assessor)
The Smiths have a similar track record with properties like the old office supply store on Main Street and more. I know of several prominent downtown folks who tried to buy the historic Main Street Arcade and were devastated when the Smiths bought it. Why is that? It's because they tend to sit on their properties and only sell for a price that makes redeveloping their troubled buildings harder to rehabilitate. That's the view shared by most if not every leading downtowner.
I'm ready to hear an argument as to how the Smiths have a track record of making downtown better - how they are truly developers and not simply flippers who sap strength from the downtown market.

Quick point on 201 NW 10th: this property was part of a package sale, so the ~$5 mil sales price covers, I believe, over 8 other tracts of land in addition to 201 NW 10th.

Thanks George. Still curious to see an example of where the Smiths have bought an old property, rehabed it with their own money, and then brought back life to it.
I'm curious as to whether people believe flipping is the same as developing.

Flippers usually stagnate development, so they tend to be the opposite of developers, they tend to want too much for their properties either in a resale or lease situation. They are nothing more than profiteers which for the most part I hope they lose their rears on those type of "investments".