After repeated rejections, I know a man (widely respected) who took ALL of his business (loans, checking, savings, everything) from Bank of America and said he marched it over to Valliance Bank and is back to doing business. I think this is a perfect example of an interstate bank versus a progressive locally owned and operated bank. When you have a President/CEO who was born and raised in Oklahoma City, along with most of the staff, its got to make a difference.

I think Stillwater National Bank has sort of become the lending institution of choice for local developers lately because they have large assets, they're local, and they're willing to loan to some local projects.

I think Stillwater National Bank has sort of become the lending institution of choice for local developers lately because they have large assets, they're local, and they're willing to loan to some local projects.

Local. Local. Local. You're right, SNB is also good local bank.

Maybe, maybe not. I've also talked to bankers who say they're terrified of making any loans that might be frowned upon by regulators. Essentially, what's going on is the president, etc., are urging bankers to loosen up by federal regulators are sending an opposite message (if we're to believe what's being said). Typical case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing.
..or maybe they are telling the public what they want to hear and privately telling regulators what they really want.


Food for thought. Should we settle for smaller developments? What if we settled for one 50' wide brick structure with light commercial/residential (DTD-1) purpose at a time.

I am all for setting our sights high, but perhaps it may be easier to convince a developer or a bank, to just start small.


One of the problems is that few understand OKC and that conditions here aren't as bad as they are in the rest of the country and that some projects really may be worthwhile.
What I have been told is that projects large or small, most aren't loaning. The national/multi-nationals are having to cover for losses where the bottom really dropped out and they have regulators hammering them on everything. For state/local banks the regulators are treating them the same way and looking at their books just like they are a national with exposure in California, Nevada, Arizona, Georgia or Florida. They seem to be making no distinction between areas and assuming the same "worst case scenario" no matter where banks are located or how much exposure they have in bad markets.

I see that it is only going to get worse in the next year as the bulk of balloon payments on commercial real estate loans will start come due and the creditors will not be willing to renegotiate/refinance and therefore driving the failure rate even higher. It is just typical of our financial world, when things are flying high, practically anyone with a scheme can get a ridiculous loan and when things are going bad even solid deals are turned down. The financial world (and politics) are just way to reactionary and precipitate the extremes at both ends in effect compounding their problems.

There is residential (assisted living??) under construction now at 11th and Hudson called Palo Duro II.

I noticed that last week and wondered if anybody else here knew anythink about it.

I noticed that last week and wondered if anybody else here knew anythink about it.

HUD section 8 i think

I thought I read that on the sign in front of the construction. Just surprised nobody here brought this up before now. How does everyone feel about a new Section 8 going in Midtown? Does that make it harder for the higher priced projects to be leased or sold?

I thought I read that on the sign in front of the construction. Just surprised nobody here brought this up before now. How does everyone feel about a new Section 8 going in Midtown? Does that make it harder for the higher priced projects to be leased or sold?

Would think so. There's already a mental services institution across the street.

New section 8 housing in Mid-Town, that is what I call progress.

LOL @ okclee. I don't think it's a problem because anyone who moves downtown to get away from lovely Section 8 housing.. well go back to Edmond. Or maybe not. Apparently you can't get away from it no matter where you go:

http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/20039-really-pissed-planning-commission.html

well many have been calling for more affordable downtown housing, looks like we got it now.

Oh come on, you're forgetting about the homeless shelters..

What exactly are they building there? I know there's already a historic 4-plex building called Palo Duro on that corner.

It's not Section 8.

I heard senior assisted living.

I believe you heard correctly.

The sign read Palo Duro II.

1212 N Walker is moving along.. it looked like they were gutting the interior of the Heritage Building when I saw it last night (skepticism quashed). On a side night, I'm proud of MidTown..I actually had trouble finding parking in a 1-block radius of McNellie's around lunch yesterday.

1212 N Walker is moving along.. it looked like they were gutting the interior of the Heritage Building when I saw it last night (skepticism quashed). On a side night, I'm proud of MidTown..I actually had trouble finding parking in a 1-block radius of McNellie's around lunch yesterday.

Awesome! Good to hear.

I'll swing back around today and take a picture of the progress. Since I just got back in town though I have no idea how it's progressing..

I work for a local bank and we are definitely lending, although we are hearing that a lot of larger banks are not. You have to understand that banks are also worried about making money for them so they might ask for the whole banking relationship (deposits, credit card transactions, check scanning, etc.) The main reason behind this is so they can yield more capital and continue loaning money.

Oh yeah, 1212 is definitely underway. All of the bigger Banta projects are looking good, have new windows at least, still working on interior renovations. i.e., 1101 N Broadway, Packard, Traveler, Osler, Cline, etc etc..pardon me if I messed up a name or two.

Also something at 1236 Shartel I believe is underway..looked like a former Banta project. 12th and Hudson has a frame going up.

Pictures coming soon..

Oh yeah, 1212 is definitely underway.

I haven't seen anything being done on 1212 in over a year. Did you see workers doing something?

I saw actual work currently being done pretty much everywhere but 1212 despite that it looked much further along than the last time I see it, which was more recently than a year.

I saw actual work currently being done pretty much everywhere but 1212 despite that it looked much further along than the last time I see it, which was more recently than a year.

I don't think anything has happened with 1212 for awhile, but it sounds like it's going to pick back up soon.

he is talking about mode homes and their soon proposal

Im curious about these mode homes I have been hearing about. Do they have a website that shows what type of homes these are? All sorts of stuff comes up when I do a search. Im looking for some pictures of what they might look like. Im hoping they are not cheap tossed up homes that will quickly be run down and not very appealing to the midtown area (as im sure everyone else is too). Thanks

Mode homes will be urban infill..contemporary design. They'll fit in with the SoSA area well.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_L3gtvb8usg4/SypiSbUmveI/AAAAAAAAARo/cX-wZNt1Iro/s320/IMG01025.JPG
1212 Walker

I checked in with Midtown Redevelopment and there isn't currently a start date for work on 1212. They expect a late 2010 or 2011 opening, though.

The good news on Palo Duro II is that it's being built right up to the corner.

The good news on Palo Duro II is that it's being built right up to the corner.

Does anyone know what it's going to look like?

http://photos.newsok.com/2/showimage/787262/lead620/

NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/groups-hope-to-heal-citys-medical-district/article/3426257)

Now that's more along the lines of the development we yearn to see in MidTown..

We'll just have to see if it looks like that when they are done.

Tsk tsk. Let's not let a woefully inordinate amount of underwhelming crappy projects ruin our excitement over future prospects!

(Funny thing is, I'm a fan of Legacy, and was a fan of Overholser until it never got off..and there are a lot of projects that ppl here like that I've always hated, esp the Community Foundation, and anything Lower Bricktown.)

Here's an interesting article by Steve about Midtown and the old Red Cross building on 10th St..

NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/groups-hope-to-heal-citys-medical-district/article/3426257?custom_click=lead_story_title)

Yeah I finally got a chance to read the article. See this is not an actual development, though. It's a rendering illustrating what kind of development that the city would like to see on the site once they demo the old Red Cross bldg. I still applaud the city for being proactive in pushing for progress on 10th Street. Preservation is not fighting for EVERY history building, just the ones that are worthwhile, which is arguably a majority still.

http://photos.newsok.com/2/showimage/787262/lead620/

NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/groups-hope-to-heal-citys-medical-district/article/3426257)

WHOA whoa whoa. That is NOT Palo Duro II. Did you even read the article?

WHOA whoa whoa. That is NOT Palo Duro II. Did you even read the article?

Sorry, I should have explained my post... I was too lazy to copy/paste text from the article, but I just meant to add that article to the thread about midtown development potential, wasn't answering in reply to palo duro. I even read the whole article and I think I even understand it! Pinky promise.

Yeah Palo Duro will be rather on the plain side, but that's not too bad. At least the site is oriented towards the street. That's urban. No harm, no foul.

Have you seen a rendering of Palo Duro II, Spartan?


Sorry, I should have explained my post... I was too lazy to copy/paste text from the article, but I just meant to add that article to the thread about midtown development potential, wasn't answering in reply to palo duro. I even read the whole article and I think I even understand it! Pinky promise.

No problem. Your post was immediately after someone asking what Palo Duro II would look like, so it appeared you were answering that question.

Have you seen a rendering of Palo Duro II, Spartan?


I am almost positive that I saw construction photos of Palo Duro II in an OKC meeting agenda while I was doing my monthly check the other day, but when I tried to find it again after it was mentioned here, to see if there were renderings included I couldn't find it, and I can't remember which committee it was.

They're called the Palo Duro Apartments, at 409 NW 11th..
Palo Duro Apartments, Oklahoma City OK 73103 -- MerchantCircle.com (http://www.merchantcircle.com/business/Palo.Duro.Apartments.405-601-2487)

This link says 22 mentally ill tenants..
http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/cache/2/z0q0mt55g2rhw555zzh2m045/51305412222009085251596.PDF

Can't find anything else on them..which can't be a good thing. All I can tell about it is from the building going up right now.

a couple of things

1. no work as started yet on 1212 walker
2. the Palo Duro 2 will look very much like Palo duro 1
3. the restraunt on the corner on walker and 11th (next to 1492) will be a pizza/itailian place and work is under way on the renovation

4. If they develop the entire block at 10th and harvy that would be huge for the entire midtown area

Then I guess the 1212 developers (I assume Clagg and Howard) have inherited a bldg that's already been gutted and torn up on the inside.

BoulderSooner, wasn't there a restaurant next to 1492 that opened about the same time? Or plans to open a restaurant there or something..trying to remember has been bothering me since I went by there and took the pictures. It was one of the original plans Banta followed out on.

Then I guess the 1212 developers (I assume Clagg and Howard) have inherited a bldg that's already been gutted and torn up on the inside.

BoulderSooner, wasn't there a restaurant next to 1492 that opened about the same time? Or plans to open a restaurant there or something..trying to remember has been bothering me since I went by there and took the pictures. It was one of the original plans Banta followed out on.

on the north side of 1492 in midtown deli then further north is meg guess bridal

the spot on the corner was going to be gaigen sushi and work had started on the inside. That fell threw and the new tentents have enlarged the building a little bit on the south side and pulled up some pavement on the north for a walk in Freezer/Fridge. They are really just now ramping up the inside (having removed the framed out sushi bar in the middle) they had plans to open in Feb but i would guess they are a little behind schedule...

Gaijen Sushi..thanks.

Then I guess the 1212 developers (I assume Clagg and Howard) have inherited a bldg that's already been gutted and torn up on the inside.

As with every Banta building.

Is 1212 the building across the street from McNellie's / 1492? If so, I think that building has a lot of potential. I actually would be interested in living there, which hasn't been the case with other downtown developments. Hopefully they'll go with modern interiors. Any idea if it's going to be condos or rental property?

Maybe it's just me, but when I think of what I would like to see our downtown evolve into I have a much better opinion of Midtown than I do Bricktown. Midtown is just so much more organic and has more of a true urban feel.

Inherited "Bantas" bldg.? More like they financed him and owned it to begin with

Dismayed, I don't know any more than you do about this, but I wouldn't bet on condos in any sort of capacity anytime in the foreseeable future. The FHA is requiring developers to front at least 30% of a project's cost with the developer's own money (or money he can obtain elsewhere) in order to obtain financing.

I think Midtown's probably a good gamble, but you're likely not going to find anyone with enough liquid net worth who is willing to take such an enormous gamble with their own money. So condo projects are pretty much dead right now and will be until that rule is changed.

You're right, Midtowner. Apartments are a different deal, and I think they'll be fine in MidTown.

1212 will be rental from what I've seen. They're dubbed as luxury apartments, so I don't know what that means.. I mean it will only offer 1 and 2 bedroom floor plans.

God I'm going to be old or dead before this city gets its act together. Maybe I should just take my toys and go home now.

1212 will be rental from what I've seen. They're dubbed as luxury apartments, so I don't know what that means.. I mean it will only offer 1 and 2 bedroom floor plans.

Way to many apartments in Oklahoma City, with the label "Luxury Apartments".....what you have a pool and a tennis court? How about get rid of the nasty counter tops, that 80's flooring, and those ancient faucets. So many apartments in OKC are disappointing. Why does Dallas get nicer apartments in the same price range? Example, best friend in Dallas pays, 900 for a 1 bedroom in uptown, private underground parking, for him, guests and family, no on street parking, wood flooring, granite counter tops, stainless appliances, w/d included, modern cabinets with stainless steel handles, glass tile backsplash, and pool with dj and bbq. I would like to see this in OKC. Correct me on this guys, am I missing something? What is the deal with apartments here?

God I'm going to be old or dead before this city gets its act together. Maybe I should just take my toys and go home now.

Well, yeah, I guess you can take that approach. Or you can be a part of the solution. What is it that has you giving up hope?

We need more apartments downtown. 1212 will be a hit.

Like midtowner said, the days of easy financing for condos are numbered, at every level. The government is getting killed on condo defaults and those ratios are looking worse every day. Even if a builder could get financing, I have to imagine there is just too much uncertainty in most cases as to whether anyone could(or would) actually buy them two years down the road.

If we had started building out Midtown, Deep Deuce, etc in the mid-nineties, I imagine things would look a lot different. We missed the boat a little.

Cougz is right about the condo development financing but there is nothing to my knowledge preventing other urban developments right now. Retail has rebounded since the economy. Apartments never really took the hit that condos did, nor did office space. I don't know if you all realize, but stocks have recovered 60% since March. It's been a silent recovery. So I am tired of hearing that the economy is the reason for everything, especially now more than ever.

More than anything I'm ticked off at the banking institutions that are refusing to lend right now. Chairman Obama gave them all this great TARP money that they were supposed to put back into the economy. NEVER happened--they took our money and hoarded it. In my opinion it's one of the bigger shams we've seen with the bailout/stimulus/etc..so far. But that really only applies to some projects, particularly for-sale residential.

There's no reason for-rent residential can't get off the ground in this climate. The thing holding us back is mentality. A few years ago condos were the huge fad..in essence, they were like the 2000s version of urban renewal in my opinion. Every city had to have 'em and to not have them would cast dispersions on a city's style.

In OKC, OCURA and anyone involved in soliciting developments in Downtown (DT OKC Inc.) were really busy pushing high-end for-sale projects as the way to go. They thought that if we let more moderately priced developments in then it would be difficult to get the high-end stuff later. They thought we would be able to max out demand for high-end condo units and then work our way down the pyramid. Well like pretty much all fads, then came reality. Anyone who has ever studied economics knows that you don't work your way down a pyramid, you work your way UP.

Instead they could have opted for trying to encourage a critical mass of development (development that the market could support) instead of this piece-meal style of doing one parcel, then having the rest be a mudpit for 5 years, then finally developing the mudpit (maybe). That isn't gonna cut it because, as I've preached before, you can have the snazziest urban loft this side of St Lou..it aint real downtown living when the lot next to you is a mudpit with vagrants and billboards. So why even bother with the downtown residential options we have right now? The only thing downtown living can really offer differently is lifestyle, I think we're all agreed you don't move downtown for practical reasons (or you don't need to). So if we're not offering a real downtown lifestyle, or encouraging the diversity that is the spice of that lifestyle, then WHAT IS EVEN THE POINT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Maybe it's just me, but when I think of what I would like to see our downtown evolve into I have a much better opinion of Midtown than I do Bricktown. Midtown is just so much more organic and has more of a true urban feel.
It's not just you; I feel the same way and I don't think it's too uncommon. And as a disclaimer, I'm not dissing Bricktown; quite the opposite, I think it's great and essential.

Midtown now feels like it could be a big city, Chicago-style neighborhood to me, even with all of the gaps in the fabric. I get that feel when I'm there, and I don't know that I can even really understand why. Maybe it is just how organic and closer to true mixed use that it is. If I was in the market to purchase or build a home now, I'd be looking in Midtown.

Bricktown is great for me occasionally, but I consider it a tourist trap. It's like a Disney version of a district, shiny and planned and precise. That's cool, and a lot of cities have districts like that, but it's not going to be my normal hangout and I wouldn't want to live there.

In the end, it's all great; diverse lifestyle options to really accommodate different groups of people are essential in a world class city. I hope we can have the best case scenarios in both of those areas, and I hope more and more of the adjoining areas begin to evolve into more ideal uses...the whole city will benefit from it in the end.

In OKC, OCURA and anyone involved in soliciting developments in Downtown (DT OKC Inc.) were really busy pushing high-end for-sale projects as the way to go. They thought that if we let more moderately priced developments in then it would be difficult to get the high-end stuff later. They thought we would be able to max out demand for high-end condo units and then work our way down the pyramid. Well like pretty much all fads, then came reality. Anyone who has ever studied economics knows that you don't work your way down a pyramid, you work your way UP.

I know we've discussed this on other threads, but this is a great point. In real cities where you see gentrification, it starts with the lower rung hipsters and pioneers moving in first, then more established yuppies, and finally, it's safe enough for the rich folks.

Let's face it. Rich folks aren't necessarily very interesting, and don't necessarily make a neighborhood "vibrant," although their money comes in handy when trying to lure the inevitable upscale urban retailers.

But, you've usually got old apartments and houses that the hipsters move into before the yuppies move into and ultimately fix up. We don't have the neighborhoods of older multistory buildings in which that can happen, typically if you're building de novo for people who need cheaper housing developers build cheaper buildings that don't age well. It may make more sense to build higher end new buildings which, as they age, may drop in price allowing the people with lower incomes to move in. I realize that runs counter to what most people think here but if we've got cheaper new housing, it will never ultimately be renovatable for the wealthier because it won't have the charm of older buildings in other cities.

I think that there is enough urban fabric available for those kinds of conversions that we're good on that regard. Plus sometimes it can be more expensive to renovate an old building than to build anew, even quality new construction. Especially in Oklahoma where construction and land prices are very cheap.

I've always thought that the "cheap land" theory in Oklahoma City should never be a hindrance to downtown, because that still applies to downtown, esp comparatively to other cities. Land in DT OKC is nowhere near as expensive as land in DTD or Uptown Charlotte or the Inner Loop in Houston, etc..