Understood. Recently they gave their inside area a make over. With increased money from parking fees, maybe we might see them update the outside as well. I guess I am showing my optimism that this will all work out.

They could get parking fees by working with surrounding business rather than towing.

Also, the parking is clearly needed. Blocking it's use is silly and contrary to the district's overall well-being.

They have signs up at both entrances. There are also two reserved spots for car sharing vehicles that have towing notices if someone parks in those spots. This doesn't keep people from parking there. If you do not heed the warnings, you deserved to get towed. Why isn't the discussion about the giant bar with no parking at all?

They have two spots for car sharing so it appears they are amenable to leasing part of parking lot. This is part of my point that the McNellies people have surrounded this business with huge bars and have made no arrangements for parking when there is plenty of land they used and other land directly south and north that is still vacant. Instead...the direction seems to get upset with the property owner that just wants to exercise his property rights. There is a huge parking area over at bone and joint, queen Anne has a lot, There are several huge surface lots on 11th, the plaza has parking on top that I am not sure if it is being used and plenty of street parking so there are lots of parking areas that they could make arrangements for there patrons if so inclined.

MidtownR is actively working on a plan for structured parking on the lot directly north of Fassler Hall and Dust Bowl.

And remember, the city codes say you do not need to provide dedicated parking in urban districts and the thought is that this all gets worked out through merchants and residents coming together to create mutually beneficial arrangements.


You can argue that Brown's/Queen's/others shouldn't be forced to share (even with fair compensation) but you can also see how that could bring a backlash from those who want what's best for OKC and these districts.

You want to take my property away during certain hours and give to someone else to use...how is that not socialism? There is a difference between code enforcement and taking away property and you know it. Telling me I have to keep my property clean and graffiti free is different than taking my property and letting another private person use it just because I am not using it at that moment.

Jeep, you keep returning to "take my property away" when most every commenter on the other side of this coin has stated that is not their desire or intent. Get off that soap box. That argument is of your own construction and you've drug everyone else along for the ride. It's about smart business and cooperation for mutual benefit rather than rash retaliation that results in ill will against the lot owner and the district as a whole even though it's entirely within his rights.

You pick out one word out of 72 and say that I am using it to win argument. it isn't about winning an argument. I have never used the word "socialism" as a bad thing but to accurately describe what people are wanting to do. These are theories and there are good arguments for and against. However, we live in a capitalistic society and have a right to not have our property taken without just compensation. Maybe that's not a bad thing either. If there is a need for parking or people want convenience of parking close...they can pay for it. Happens everytime there is a Thunder game. People that want to park for free will park further away and walk. Free market. I would be willing to bet that if Browns started charging for parking....the lot would mostly be empty as there are plenty of spots to park in the surrounding area and streets. No one is entitled to free convenient parking.

How is "This is pure socialism." not appealing to the usual negative connotation of the word in order to swing the discussion? Plenty of stuff in our society is more socialistic than capitalistic, so just invoking the word does nothing more than apply a label. A pure capitalistic society would have none of the city codes that I provided as examples a page ago, codes that are inherently socialistic because of their intent and effect.

Jeep, you keep returning to "take my property away" when most every commenter on the other side of this coin has stated that is not their desire or intent. Get off that soap box. That argument is of your own construction and you've drug everyone else along for the ride. It's about smart business and cooperation for mutual benefit rather than rash retaliation that results in ill will against the lot owner and the district as a whole even though it's entirely within his rights.

"Entirely within his rights" and they posted signs warning people. Doesn't sound like rash retaliation. I am sorry my "soapbox" offends but I think the onus is on the McNellies group and not Browns in this case. None of us know the facts here. Everyone says that Browns should make an agreement with mcNellies. I haven't seen anything that McNellies had tried to make an agreement with Browns. Browns rents space to the car sharing people so doesn't sound like they are opposed to it. It takes two sides for a contract and everyone is assuming that Browns doesn't want to deal here. Maybe...just maybe, it is the other side that doesn't want to pay. If that is the case, why should they not tow? I understand the good of the community but everyone should carry their weight and not rely on others.

Apparently there has not been an agreement that satisfies all the parties in this case but that doesn't automatically make it the Brown's fault or require them just to give away free parking. If someone is upset because they ignored a sign that said no parking and you will be towed, their issue should be with themselves or the establishment they were going to that didn't provide them parking. They have a product and they should be paid for it or it shouldn't be used. What is their recourse to enforce this.....towing. they don't have the ability to issue a parking ticket. Also, no one has considered that they may need some spaces for employees as they open at 5 am and they have to get there early to prepare and bake before opening.

All of what you say just above is true, but nobody here is or has advocated for any organized taking his property away or forcing him to share it. Yet that's what your response to JTF asserted.

The solution? Tax the ever living hell out of surface parking in the downtown area, most especially if it fronts the street. At the very least, this will get Browns to put someone on the lot every day to collect money for parking. $150 (30 people parking at $5) over 365 days is $54,750. That should cover a higher tax bill and the person on the lot.

Serious question: why not just put someone out there collecting $10 per car every weekend night? It works in Bricktown. This solution also does not require any sort of agreement between McNellie's and Brown's. Is the kickback from the towing company more lucrative than monetizing the parking spaces?

Serious question: why not just put someone out there collecting $10 per car every weekend night? It works in Bricktown. This solution also does not require any sort of agreement between McNellie's and Brown's. Is the kickback from the towing company more lucrative than monetizing the parking spaces?

Part of the reason may be, because according to Brown's there are cars still there in the morning when they open, and their customers/employees have no place to park. So this would beg the question on when the towing is happening. Is it during the evening, or is it in the morning before/when Brown's opens?

I also thought this was interesting from their facebook page (I never understand why businesses argue things out over social media....)


Our parking lot is being worn out. We would like to share our parking lot with all the businesses in Midtown if they are willing to pay to maintain our lot.

If true, it sounds like they are absolutely willing to work with the other Midtown businesses.

Serious question: why not just put someone out there collecting $10 per car every weekend night? It works in Bricktown. This solution also does not require any sort of agreement between McNellie's and Brown's. Is the kickback from the towing company more lucrative than monetizing the parking spaces?

You can make a ton more money towing.

I've only had my car towed once (and yes, it was posted and completely my fault) and the total bill was almost $500, and that was with me immediately retrieving it and thus avoiding even further "storage" charges.

All of what you say just above is true, but nobody here is or has advocated for any organized taking his property away or forcing him to share it. Yet that's what your response to JTF asserted.

Thank you for telling me how to interpret someone's words. We will just have to agree to disagree on the interpretation of what "All parking should be open to the public during non-business hours. If the property owner wants to make a few extra dollars then they can post a parking attendant or install a pay station" means. Or, if makes you feel better, your interpretation is right and mine is wrong. Interpretations are based on considering the source and other posts people have made. Also, my initial response was just that it wasn't another property owners duty to provide parking for someone else. Last word is yours as we will never agree so no use furthering the topic. Cheers!

JTF must be an odd combination of personalities to be a Tea Party Communist. :)

You can make a ton more money towing.

I've only had my car towed once (and yes, it was posted and completely my fault) and the total bill was almost $500, and that was with me immediately retrieving it and thus avoiding even further "storage" charges.

Yes but this revenue stream will run out--and quick--as soon as the word gets out that they mean business about towing. Get a parking attendant and make a steady income for months or years until MTR gets their parking garage up.

Yes but this revenue stream will run out--and quick--as soon as the word gets out that they mean business about towing. Get a parking attendant and make a steady income for months or years until MTR gets their parking garage up.

True, but all it takes is a tow or two per day to make good money and you don't have pay anyone or go through any type of hassle.

Understood. Recently they gave their inside area a make over. With increased money from parking fees, maybe we might see them update the outside as well. I guess I am showing my optimism that this will all work out.

Brown's gets a lot of business, and it's arguably cheaper to get baked goods for the office elsewhere like Homeland or Walmart even. Them and Byron's - with nobody to challenge their business in Central OKC, they are free to keep on acting like its 1990s OKC.

Supporting a local business is something that you do because that money gets reinvested in the community, to help a mom and pop maintain a vibrant presence in the community, etc. If those trends aren't happening, why would things change? This isn't about them getting X more money, and now they can budget X more for exterior improvements. They are so inadequate that we aren't at that point anymore.

Yes but this revenue stream will run out--and quick--as soon as the word gets out that they mean business about towing. ...

Never underestimate the ability of John & Jane Q Public to rationalize that it won't/can't happen to him/her.

Just curious. Does Browns ownership incur any liability if patrons, of other businesses. Started parking in Browns lot and injured themselves while on Browns Bakery property?

From the Journal Record:

Midtown mess: Changing street to one way could help parking situation near new attractions

By: Molly M. Fleming The Journal Record January 6, 2015

OKLAHOMA CITY – Before The McNellie’s Group broke ground on Midtown’s Dust Bowl Lanes & Lounge and Fassler Hall beer hall, architect Brian Fitzsimmons heard concerns about the building’s parking lot, including from developers such as Richard Tanenbaum.

“Love the design,” Tanenbaum said during the Sept. 19, 2013, Downtown Design Review Committee meeting. “Fits in, new and old – great combination. This parking is going to be unbelievable.”

The facility has a capacity of 500 to 600 people, with additional space for 800 more people in the patio. It has 29 parking spots.

“Is it just walkability and hope and pray?” Tanenbaum said. ”Just a comment, I mean, we have nothing to do with it. But my goodness gracious, there’s no parking now.”

Fitzsimmons commented on the issue during the meeting.

“I think there will be hopefully a solution to that very soon,” he said. “We realize it’s a problem.”

That solution is coming, as there are plans to convert W. Park Place – which sits directly north of the Dust Bowl – into a one-way street and put in angled parking. The private-public partnership between the city of Oklahoma City and the Midtown Renaissance Group has been in the works for 18 months, said Chris Fleming, partner with Midtown Renaissance. The street runs from N. Hudson to N. Walker avenues near Brown’s Bakery. Fleming said the bakery supported the street redesign. The street’s width will be expanded to create more room for parking and allow for a 22-foot-wide driving area.

Fleming said the city has approved the project and is now reviewing its fine details. City of Oklahoma City Public Works Information Director Shannon Cox said the city is looking over the plans before everything moves forward. Midtown Renaissance is funding the change, which is expected to cost more than $250,000. Neither the city nor Midtown Renaissance could give a timeline for the work.

The group has already made some effort to help alleviate the parking situation by building a parking garage near Broadway Avenue and NW 10th Street. Fleming equated the distance to walking from a Penn Square Mall end parking spot to the mall’s front doors.

“Parking (in Midtown) is not perfect, and in any urban environment it’s not perfect, but we’re doing the best we can as quickly as permitted,” he said.

While Park Place is being completed, longtime district business Brown’s Bakery, 1100 N. Walker Ave., is trying to protect its parking lot. The bakery has been in Midtown for 22 years. A month ago, owner William Brown installed signs stating that only customers can park in the lot or others would be towed. He’s said he’s towed 10 vehicles since then.

“A lot of people get intoxicated in bars around here and leave their cars in my parking lot, then there’s nowhere to park when I come to work the next day,” he said. “They leave beer cans everywhere. They just don’t care. I have had to do something about it. I’ve got it posted all over my lot. I don’t like having people’s cars towed, but it’s kind of pushed us back against the wall.”

He said he didn’t understand how the surrounding businesses could be approved with so little parking, while he actually had to remove some seats in order to meet the parking lot size. His business now seats 40 people.

James E. McNellie’s Public House in the Plaza Court building has a seating capacity of 271 people and shares a parking lot with at least six other businesses.

McNellie’s Group CEO Elliot Nelson said the company is aware that parking is tight. He said the company is waiting for the St. Anthony Hospital expansion to be complete before the parking situation at McNellie’s is re-evaluated.

Interesting.

On the Park Place to one-way note, it says they're widening the street for a 22-foot drive lane, and then putting in angled? I'd love to see the designs... they don't need a 22' drive lane next to the angled parking. That's excessive. If that's accurate, that will encourage accidental two-way traffic for sure.

Absolutely wrong! I have no duty to provide parking to anyone except my own customers. I especially have no duty or responsibility to provide a spot for people to leave their trash, pee on the bushes, or vomit when they come out of somebody else's business intoxicated. Businesses have a responsibility to their own customers to provide access and parking. They should be paying to rent those spaces and providing clean up if they don't have adequate resources. What next....I should provide public bathrooms for non customers?

Let me give you a quick example. I had to go to downtown Jax yesterday. Because downtown parking can be hit or miss I decided to use the Skyway. Right next to the Kings Ave Skyway station is surface parking lot with 724 parking spaces serving 2 small off buildings. The lot maybe had 100 cars in it, but there was a big sign that read "Parking for Company X only - all others will be towed". Fortunately I was able to find an on-street spot a block away where I could park 2 hours for free, but people coming after me were not so lucky.

So put all the "you can't make me" and other stuff aside, is this good land-use policy and an appropriate use of resources - or is it wasteful?

Interesting.

On the Park Place to one-way note, it says they're widening the street for a 22-foot drive lane, and then putting in angled? I'd love to see the designs... they don't need a 22' drive lane next to the angled parking. That's excessive. If that's accurate, that will encourage accidental two-way traffic for sure.

I was thinking the exact same thing. WAY too wide. That space could probably be better used as a sidewalk or otherwise reclaimed for the pedestrian realm.

I was thinking the exact same thing. WAY too wide. That space could probably be better used as a sidewalk or otherwise reclaimed for the pedestrian realm.

I'm curious how accurate that is. Because 22 feet is actually the design spec width in many cities for a one way street with parking on the side (the parking is part of the 22 feet). So it would be a funny coincidence for JUST the drive lane to be 22 feet, plus parking. The other thought is maybe there is a plan for bike lanes or something (which would be nice).

I'm curious how accurate that is. Because 22 feet is actually the design spec width in many cities for a one way street with parking on the side (the parking is part of the 22 feet). So it would be a funny coincidence for JUST the drive lane to be 22 feet, plus parking. The other thought is maybe there is a plan for bike lanes or something (which would be nice).

Or it's simply an error in the writing of the text - it's a 22' section with parking taking 12' of it... That's my hope.

The City is requiring the 22' drive lane just in case there's a public outcry to have the street two-way again.

MidtownR wanted it to be 11'.

The City is requiring the 22' drive lane just in case there's a public outcry to have the street two-way again.

MidtownR wanted it to be 11'.

I predict numerous accidental incursions the wrong way then.

Wonder if they'll allow parallel on the other side of the street to utilize that space... Otherwise, that's a bunch of extraneous asphalt. AND, if the City is requiring it, shouldn't they put up the cost?

From the Journal Record:

That solution is coming, as there are plans to convert W. Park Place – which sits directly north of the Dust Bowl – into a one-way street and put in angled parking. The private-public partnership between the city of Oklahoma City and the Midtown Renaissance Group has been in the works for 18 months, said Chris Fleming, partner with Midtown Renaissance. The street runs from N. Hudson to N. Walker avenues near Brown’s Bakery. Fleming said the bakery supported the street redesign. The street’s width will be expanded to create more room for parking and allow for a 22-foot-wide driving area.

Don't they need to first find out if that street has any historical significance before they re-purpose it?

With 22' plus planned space for angled parking, could you make it one way with angled parking on both sides? Then, if for some reason it needed to go back to two way, you just remove one side of the angled parking in favor of a lane.

A 22' one way street will not only look ridiculous, I doubt it every functions as a true one way street. Since it would be wide enough for two full size trucks to pass each other, is the absence of a white line and a one way sign really going to keep people from turning?

The plan calls for a total of 45 on-street spaces.

Their application said there would be some parallel spots as well.

I predict numerous accidental incursions the wrong way then.

Wonder if they'll allow parallel on the other side of the street to utilize that space... Otherwise, that's a bunch of extraneous asphalt. AND, if the City is requiring it, shouldn't they put up the cost?

Although I never actually got in a wreck, when I lived on 15th and Robinson, people were always going down the wrong way. This 3 or 4 blocks of one way street have been there since I can remember and it has confused at least one person daily. They take a right on 13th and Robinson and don't realize what they have done until someone is right in front of them.

I see this as a problem to change park place to one way. They will have to dig up the small median at Walker and Park that suggests drivers to go a certain way. How does this improve anything? The actual problem is the amount of cars, not the amount of parking. No one in this state carpools or takes a taxi or uber. Our problem will always be cars even if we have tons of parking options.

I find it ironic that Fassler Hall was designed to look like a highway overpass, because now it is causing traffic jams!

Do we know for sure that was Fassler's design inspiration? I made the overpass comment once and people looked at me funny, as if I was insulting Fitzsimmons (I am growing to hate when people take my comments much more negatively than I ever mean)

That type of reinforced concrete was common in the mid-century period and I'm sure it was meant to tie in with several other buildings of that era in the area.

While I'm sure there were other elements of inspiration, I don't know how you could possibly look at the building as anything less than a highway overpass. Right down to the bare concrete throughout the structure.

BTW, just learned the MidtownR and Brown's people have been talking, so hopefully there will soon be a resolution.


As Urbanized is fond of saying, parking problems in an urban district is a great sign.

While I'm sure there were other elements of inspiration, I don't know how you could possibly look at the building as anything less than a highway overpass. Right down to the bare concrete throughout the structure.

I assume that look is on purpose. I love the irony. A construction style signifying suburbanization, car culture and freeways being used to build a hangout in the least car-dependent part of town. Fitzsimmons wins extra points from me for this juxtaposition.

“A lot of people get intoxicated in bars around here and leave their cars in my parking lot, then there’s nowhere to park when I come to work the next day,” he said. “They leave beer cans everywhere. They just don’t care. I have had to do something about it. I’ve got it posted all over my lot. I don’t like having people’s cars towed, but it’s kind of pushed us back against the wall.”

While he has some valid concerns, he clearly forgets to address Brown's clearly doesn't care about their own appearance, both from a public relations standpoint, and the horrible exterior of their building (broken windows, boarded up windows, graffiti, junk showing in their storage annex, etc.). He should have rented out the parking and the storage annex (for retail) and paid for a serious upgrade of his exterior. Paint isn't expensive.

For the crowd on board with daytime only businesses should/ought/must allow/lease/whatever their parking lots to night time venue customers ... do you realize that although it could generate income ..... it does not solve the primary problem, nor does it eliminate a need to tow, at least not for Brown's.

Examine why they started towing. Broken bottles, trash, and very, very important, cars left overnight and taking up spaces intended for at work employees and customers.

Doesn't much matter if they might make a killing by leasing parking if the staff can not park when they roll in during the pre dawn hours to start baking.

Doesn't much matter if they might make a killing on parking if the morning customers can not park due to cars left over night because the folks had too good a time to retrieve their cars and left them. On the one hand, kudos for not being arsewipes who drink and drive and put lives and property in danger. But big old Gibbs' style headslaps for not caring enough about the daytime business to make some kind of arrangement for the vehicle.

Sure, in a parking garage, one leaves a car over a lengthy period, they pay more, but they are taking up a space intended for park/pay, not a space intended for the daytime employees or customers.

Charging for parking does not solve the problem if people drink to a point they leave the vehicles.

So say they agree to allow parking, but only to say 3:00 am because bake folks rise earlier than their dough. And customers for some places, can't swear this for Brown's, start in at 6 sometimes earlier. So cars might still be towed if they get left, even though they paid for parking.

Also, glass damages tires, and you let people trash your lot and your regular customers loose a tire, they are not going to be happy. then consider, sorry to be gross, the day customer in the real nice shoes who hops out to buy pastry to take to the office and steps in barf to start their day.

It is not as simple as let folks park, free or for a fee. Not that simple at all.

I've worked in a setting, non-medical, where part of the daily am activities included staff checking the grounds for syringes, needles, old condoms, glass and at times, bodily secretions and waste products, and on occasion, shooing off one or more urban campers who helped bring the mess.

Not everyone is as clean and tidy as the person you see in your mirror, or at the next office, cubicle or workbench.

I can see that argument if the business was open and you were taking parking away from their patrons, but Brown's Bakery closes at 3pm, Monday through Friday and noon on Saturday. Why can't people park there in the evenings when they are not open?

The fact of weather the business is open or not doesn't matter to the people that park there. I'm a member of prototek which is on the other side of fassler hall (corner of 10th and hudson) and we've had numerous parking issues since fassler hall has opened. When I tell people they can't park there, some move their cars but others get confrontational (saying where am I supposed to park or if i park here anyway are you gonna tow me?) Keep in mind we are a 24/7 business (lights are clearly on with people inside and people still try to park there even going as far as blocking our garage doors our double parking our cars then walking away. We've also had drunk patrons piss on our building after stumbling over drunk from Fassler Hall. All of that is to say I can definitely understand the frustration that Brown's has faced.

I assume that look is on purpose. I love the irony. A construction style signifying suburbanization, car culture and freeways being used to build a hangout in the least car-dependent part of town. Fitzsimmons wins extra points from me for this juxtaposition.
There were a ton of buildings built in the 60's and 70's of Precast Double-T construction, there are a bunch of them in OKC but many of them were used as exterior wall/structure. Thomas Concrete of OKC was one of the big manufacturers of them. They are all over areas of DFW, Houston, Austin and some here in Denver as well.

There were a ton of buildings built in the 60's and 70's of Precast Double-T construction, there are a bunch of them in OKC but many of them were used as exterior wall/structure. Thomas Concrete of OKC was one of the big manufacturers of them. They are all over areas of DFW, Houston, Austin and some here in Denver as well.

So that only further cheapens the "unique design" many are praising the architect for, does it not?

The fact of weather the business is open or not doesn't matter to the people that park there. I'm a member of prototek which is on the other side of fassler hall (corner of 10th and hudson) and we've had numerous parking issues since fassler hall has opened. When I tell people they can't park there, some move their cars but others get confrontational (saying where am I supposed to park or if i park here anyway are you gonna tow me?) Keep in mind we are a 24/7 business (lights are clearly on with people inside and people still try to park there even going as far as blocking our garage doors our double parking our cars then walking away. We've also had drunk patrons piss on our building after stumbling over drunk from Fassler Hall. All of that is to say I can definitely understand the frustration that Brown's has faced. Most leaders and "creatives" in OKC are to cool to take note, but it would be a worse loss for OKC as a whole to lose Prototek than it would be to lose Fassler Hall or any bar in reference.

While I'm sure there were other elements of inspiration, I don't know how you could possibly look at the building as anything less than a highway overpass. Right down to the bare concrete throughout the structure.

I do agree. When they were building it I thought it looked like a highway overpass and I still think it does now that it's complete.

Seems to me with all these drunk heathens running around pissing on peoples property & taking peoples parking spots that Midtown is in need of a few new churches.

While he has some valid concerns, he clearly forgets to address Brown's clearly doesn't care about their own appearance, both from a public relations standpoint, and the horrible exterior of their building (broken windows, boarded up windows, graffiti, junk showing in their storage annex, etc.). He should have rented out the parking and the storage annex (for retail) and paid for a serious upgrade of his exterior. Paint isn't expensive.

Sad but true. They had issues way before the bars started opening up around them.

Seems to me with all these drunk heathens running around pissing on peoples property & taking peoples parking spots that Midtown is in need of a few new churches.

So we need some more police to patrol the area so drunk heathens aren't running around urinating on property.

with some of these comments it makes it sound like everyone in midtown is running amuck!..lol

with some of these comments it makes it sound like everyone in midtown is running amuck!..lol

I know I am! Wait...am I not supposed to?

So confused.

with some of these comments it makes it sound like everyone in midtown is running amuck!..lol

Life in the Big City!

Just growing pains...

It wasn't that long ago when Brown's was virtually the only thing open in Midtown besides some small offices and Saint Anthony.

Seems to me with all these drunk heathens running around pissing on peoples property & taking peoples parking spots that Midtown is in need of a few new churches.

When you gotta go, you gotta go. Sounds like we need a 24 hour public restroom to me.

When I lived behind the Plaza Theater, I'd sit on my porch some evenings and watch a nearly-continuous stream (haha) of dudes walk behind the garage apartment across the street to take a whiz.

The amount of public urination is a great barometer for determining the vibrancy of an urban district.

the amount of public urination is a great barometer for determining the vibrancy of an urban district.

^^^^^^^ qotd

Amateurs. In Bricktown the barometer is public fornication.

Many Oklahomans believe they are endowed by their creator with the inalienable right to adjacent parking. This kerfuffle over midtown parking will be small once all the surface lots around the Chesapeake arena disappear.

The amount of public urination is a great barometer for determining the vibrancy of an urban district.

Seriously? And, I thought it was culture, diversity, etc. Not drunkenness and low class. Silly me. For the life of me then, I can't understand why anyone in HH would be concerned about drunks throwing up and urinating around their houses.

Seriously?

Um, no.

Seriously? And, I thought it was culture, diversity, etc. Not drunkenness and low class. Silly me. For the life of me then, I can't understand why anyone in HH would be concerned about drunks throwing up and urinating around their houses.

Man, get the hell off your high horse. It was tongue and cheek and you know it.

It's pretty hard to tell these days what is serious on this board and what is sarcasm.

I'm thinking about making a quick buck...

Should I open up a A.) tow truck B.) valet or C.) porta potty business in Midtown?