So that's the key. Gotcha. I was wondering, and I'm only partially familiar with the historic preservation codes, but are they use-specific as well?

My information comes from tours of the Cline and Hadden Hall Apartment buildings. I would say it is probably not use specific since they were both originally hotels as well as the Siber Motor Hotel. I am not an expert on the subject, I am just relaying what I was told by the architect.

Another thing to note, is that is does not have to BE ORIGINAL it just needs to LOOK ORIGINAL.

Depends on what "it" is. In many cases the NPS guidelines would NOT support removal of original "contributing" materials and substitution of new, depending on the condition of the historic. If you remove too much of the actual history, a building becomes less historic by definition.

For instance, demolition of intricate plasterwork on a ceiling, and replacement with lookalike modern extruded foam replica moldings just to save the expense of stripping and painting would be discouraged. But if a section of the historic plaster were damaged/missing, the guidelines WOULD allow replica moldings to be made and grafted in using modern products and techniques. This happened in the Skirvin, and in the historic Oklahoman Building (now the headquarters of the YMCA).

That is why when tax credits are used a preservation expert is assigned to make recommendations and to monitor the work. In Oklahoma that typically falls to SHPO, the State Historic Preservation Office, in cooperation with Preservation Oklahoma and OHS.

And again, NONE of these restrictions fall on a project that does not seek tax credits. In most neighborhoods you can just hack away at the history of your building at your leisure if you're doing it all on your own nickel.

Depends on what "it" is. In many cases the NPS guidelines would NOT support removal of original "contributing" materials and substitution of new, depending on the condition of the historic. If you remove too much of the actual history, a building becomes less historic by definition.

For instance, demolition of intricate plasterwork on a ceiling, and replacement with lookalike modern extruded foam replica moldings just to save the expense of stripping and painting would be discouraged. But if a section of the historic plaster were damaged/missing, the guidelines WOULD allow replica moldings to be made and grafted in using modern products and techniques. This happened in the Skirvin, and in the historic Oklahoman Building (now the headquarters of the YMCA).

That is why when tax credits are used a preservation expert is assigned to make recommendations and to monitor the work. In Oklahoma that typically falls to SHPO, the State Historic Preservation Office, in cooperation with Preservation Oklahoma and OHS.

And again, NONE of these restrictions fall on a project that does not seek tax credits. In most neighborhoods you can just hack away at the history of your building at your leisure if you're doing it all on your own nickel.

In the Cline for example, a lot of the original plaster was removed in favor of drywall without a problem.

And again, NONE of these restrictions fall on a project that does not seek tax credits. In most neighborhoods you can just hack away at the history of your building at your leisure if you're doing it all on your own nickel.
Maybe on the inside but some historical preservation districts have pretty strict controls on how much you can do to the exterior....as someone that I know has had to deal with on a few projects in Crown Heights.

To show the difference in preservation mentality, I have a vendor in Colchester, England who had a historically registered house. Every part oh his restoration had to not only use the exact same materials as original, but had to do it the original way it was constructed (much without nails even). NO shortcuts were allowed. Same woods had to be used with same finishes, mostly hand cut and scraped. Plaster had to be analyzed and new plaster mixed to be the same. Etc., etc.

Maybe on the inside but some historical preservation districts have pretty strict controls on how much you can do to the exterior....as someone that I know has had to deal with on a few projects in Crown Heights.
If you read my earlier post, I mentioned Crown Heights as one of the few places in OKC that actually has restrictive HP ordinances for exteriors. These are city ordinances, not state or federal. Heritage Hills is another. By the way, those ordinances only came into existence at the request and with the assistance of the residents in the neighborhoods in question. Most neighborhoods in OKC, including many with largely historic homes, do NOT have such restrictions. NO city neighborhood ordinances restrict interior renovations in any way.

I'm just trying to set the facts straight regarding where HP is a requirement. Most folks have very little if any understanding of where/how HP restrictions are enforced. I see and hear incorrect statements all the time -- including on this board -- about how onerous rehabilitation of old buildings is. Fact is, it's rarely the three-headed monster most people think it to be.

I'm just trying to set the facts straight regarding where HP is a requirement. Most folks have very little if any understanding of where/how HP restrictions are enforced. I see and hear incorrect statements all the time -- including on this board -- about how onerous rehabilitation of old buildings is. Fact is, it's rarely the three-headed monster most people think it to be.

...and let me say thanks for correcting the misconceptions.

How long do these HP restrctions stay in place? On a place like Hadden Hall will they be there forever? If someone buys this place in 30 years will they still have to keep X number of non-opening doors in the hallway? Is burning it down the only way out of the restrictions or is there an exit mechanism, like paying back the tax credits for instance?

...and let me say thanks for correcting the misconceptions.

How long do these HP restrctions stay in place? On a place like Hadden Hall will they be there forever? If someone buys this place in 30 years will they still have to keep X number of non-opening doors in the hallway? Is burning it down the only way out of the restrictions or is there an exit mechanism, like paying back the tax credits for instance?
That's a great question that I didn't know the answer to off of the top of my head (cut me some slack; it's been about a decade since my involvement with Main Street and NTHP-associated training..!). So I searched around a bit and found some info on the American Bar Association's website (http://www.americanbar.org/newsletter/publications/law_trends_news_practice_area_e_newsletter_home/preservationtaxcred.html) I found a nice explanation of the business/legal intricacies of historic tax credits. One passage relevant to your question states:


7. How Long Must the Tax Credit User Own the Property? An owner that claims the Historic Tax Credits must retain ownership of the property for at least five years after the date the project was placed in service, or the tax credits will be subject to recapture.

8. Recapture of the Credits. Historic Tax Credits can be recaptured if the project is sold before the end of the minimum five year holding period or if the property ceases to be income-producing. These recapture rules are laid out in IRC section 50(a). Recapture can also take place if the project ceases to comply with other transfer or leasing restrictions imposed under the program or if the project is physically altered such that it no longer complies with the approved rehabilitation improvements. See also Treas. Reg. § 1.48-12(f)(3). The amount of the credit recapture is calculated on a sliding scale based on how much of the minimum five year holding period has elapsed at the time of noncompliance.

Thank you for finding that information for me. You have provided a lot of good info.

So let me get this straight now.

1) A building only has to comply with HP regulations if the owner applies for and receives HP tax credits.
2) If the building fails to retain the historic characteristics for 5 years, or if it is sold, or if it ceases to become income-producing then the tax credits can be recaptured.

Does this mean that historic characteristics only have to remain in place during the time the tax credits are subject to recapture? In other words, other than having to pay back the tax credits are there any potential penalties for violating the HP requirements? In 5 years can they add on to Hadden Hall and make other modifications?

Thank you for finding that information for me. You have provided a lot of good info.

So let me get this straight now.

1) A building only has to comply with HP regulations if the owner applies for and receives HP tax credits.
2) If the building fails to retain the historic characteristics for 5 years, or if it is sold, or if it ceases to become income-producing then the tax credits can be recaptured.

Does this mean that historic characteristics only have to remain in place during the time the tax credits are subject to recapture? In other words, other than having to pay back the tax credits are there any potential penalties for violating the HP requirements? In 5 years can they add on to Hadden Hall and make other modifications?
According to that information (it should be pointed out that the info in that link is from '05), it sounds like the answer to that is possibly yes. By the same standard, I guess the folks at the Skirvin could probably paint over their historic wall, or re-tile their historic floor next year - five years after opening - if they chose to.

However, if a building is successfully rehabilitated to comply with the Secretary of the Interior's standards for Historic Preservation, it usually has more intrinsic value than a like, but less-historic structure. In most cases I would guess that the owners, having been through the process, would be disinclined to undo what they worked so hard to achieve. "Historic" is a commodity that is pretty limited around here, so once someone has invested in doing it right, most would not want to un-do their effort and compromise their own investment. The government is probably betting on this too, by structuring the credits in this way.

Keep in mind that those guidelines are for the federal tax credit. Oklahoma also has a state tax credit (currently under fire in the legislature) which has similar hoops to jump through and similar transfer restrictions, I'm guessing. Chip Fudge, who was involved with some revitalization in the Automobile Alley® Historic District, and who has led revitalization in Film Row, has an opinion piece in this week's Gazette (http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-13933-historic-help.html) that discusses the current threat to the state tax credit.

However, if a building is successfully rehabilitated to comply with the Secretary of the Interior's standards for Historic Preservation, it usually has more intrinsic value than a like, but less-historic structure. In most cases I would guess that the owners, having been through the process, would be disinclined to undo what they worked so hard to achieve. "Historic" is a commodity that is pretty limited around here, so once someone has invested in doing it right, most would not want to un-do their effort and compromise their own investment. The government is probably betting on this too, by structuring the credits in this way.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Once the historical aspect becomes part of the product the current owner is less inclined to ruin it. As time goes on, and if historic replication catches on in OKC, future owners might not be so concerned with the historical component if they can make more money by expanding.

Anyone have recent pics of 1212? I think that is a really important development for MidTown.

I believe 1212 is still set for an April finish date, so it should be really coming along.

It is. I will be surprised if the facade is not complete by the next time I am down in OKC. (And then I expect to see some progress eventually on the Edge, too)

The 1212 is coming along. It seemed to be at a crawl for so long and then in the course of just a few weeks it seemed it now resembles somethin someone can actually live in.

Looking good. Thanks for the pics. I just think this development will give Midtown a much more vibrant feel...

Yes, especially since the immediate area has become the more or less the epicenter of Midtown.

Let's not forget that we owe a great deal to Greg Banta for doing so much to make Midtown a place to even happen again. I know it was Howard & Clegg's money (for the most part) but when I drive through there, I think of how dead it was when Greg had the vision for Midtown. It's really happening now and it's great to see.

Have there been any tenants for the ground floor leaked or mentioned? If not, what do you think might go well there to build on what's already happening in the area?

This project looked much better as a rendering than how it looks now. The the exterior wall color and finish, the windows looked like a better quality were originally red . It is very plain why didn't they have some fun with it. I do not think this project will age well.

This is a project looked much better as a rendering than how it looks now. I think this project is a disappointment

How so? It doesn't have any of the final exterior finish done except for the windows. Also, it will have what appear from the following rendering to have glass-walled balconies:
http://www.taparchitecture.com/tands_idprojects/1212-north-walker/

This project looked much better as a rendering than how it looks now. The the exterior wall color and finish, the windows looked like a better quality were originally red . It is very plain why didn't they have some fun with it. I do not think this project will age well.

I think this is way premature. Most of the exterior is going to be coverd with balconies and such. Wait and see how it looks...

Have there been any tenants for the ground floor leaked or mentioned? If not, what do you think might go well there to build on what's already happening in the area?

I would think that would be an ideal location for a small neighborhood grocery store or drug store.

I would think that would be an ideal location for a small neighborhood grocery store or drug store.

Maybe so... although the Native Roots at LEVEL will only be a little over a mile away. I'm not sure the area can support two grocery stores. Drug store may be a good idea though...

It's not unusual in urban areas to have small grocery stores closer together than one mile.

Also, one of the main draws is the ability to walk to an urban grocery store. That's quite a walk from Midtown to Deep Deuce even for urbanites, and I'm willing to bet more Deep Deuce residents mosey over to Midtown for a night out/shopping than vice versa (at least until Aloft and Level open).

It's not unusual in urban areas to have small grocery stores closer together than one mile.

I agree and understand that, but I don't think the area is near dense enough yet.

I agree and understand that, but I don't think the area is near dense enough yet.

Well it's not unusual to have suburban grocery stores closer together in less dense environments so I don't think that's a particularly good argument. As for density would you like to compare it to the suburbs then? We're not talking about a Homeland here, just a small neighborhood place with the basics and maybe a nice deli and bakery.

I'm just not convinced that it would make it, but don't be mistaken, I would love for it to. I am absolutely in favor of an urban setting where less cars are involved. Maybe once Edge is built and occupied it would make it. I hope you're right. Maybe we'll find out...

I think the bigger point everyone is missing as the Midtown core will now get some much needed residents.

I work in Midtown and would love to have a little grocery store/drug store. My mouse's batteries went out yesterday and I needed batteries ASAP. The closest place I could think of to get batteries was Homeland at 18th and Classen. I would have much prefered to walk a few blocks than get in my car and drive a few miles.

I think the bigger point everyone is missing as the Midtown core will now get some much needed residents.

Is there a factual number, as to how many residences currently in Midtown vs Deep Deuce?

If someone could come up with that number it would be interesting to compare the two, especially in the next few years.

It also depends on how you define the up for debate Midtown area.

I think the bigger point everyone is missing as the Midtown core will now get some much needed residents.

and more on the way

Packard building sign was also just aproved

1088

So east of the traffic circle and north of 10th but south of the alley?

So east of the traffic circle and north of 10th but south of the alley?

no just across the street and to the south of kaisers ... so south of 10th and east of walker directly south of the traffic circle

no just across the street and to the south of kaisers ... so south of 10th and east of walker directly south of the traffic circle

Perfect - thanks for clarifying. I was afraid it was going to be a new structure wedged into the triangle between the existing structure and the traffic circle.

Perfect - thanks for clarifying. I was afraid it was going to be a new structure wedged into the triangle between the existing structure and the traffic circle.

no problem .. the patio in the image is directly along walker

I think it would be great to have that triangle filled.

Does Brown's bakery use all of their existing building?

In particular the south end of their building that looks like an old storage area?

I think it would be great to have that triangle filled.

I do too, I just didn't want it done with a one story building. I wish all six corners were built as close as possible to the sidewalk.

I do too, I just didn't want it done with a one story building. I wish all six corners were built as close as possible to the sidewalk.

I would like to see some street parking. I do not see the point of having a middle turning lane on walker.

I would like to see some street parking. I do not see the point of having a middle turning lane on walker.

I'll say this - for a city with a grid street network, the roads are all screwed up. Walker takes the cake but a close second is the new boulevard that will only have one street connecting to Bricktown (Oklahoma Ave) and that street doesn't connect to Deep Deuce. What a mess. Brings new meaning to the phrase 'you can't get there from here'.

I'll say this - for a city with a grid street network, the roads are all screwed up. Walker takes the cake but a close second is the new boulevard that will only have one street connecting to Bricktown (Oklahoma Ave) and that street doesn't connect to Deep Deuce. What a mess. Brings new meaning to the phrase 'you can't get there from here'.


Just the facts, we agree on many topics. There are very few streets that run 2 ways through downtown and out the other side. Maybe Sheridan is the only one.

Just the facts, we agree on many topics. There are very few streets that run 2 ways through downtown and out the other side. Maybe Sheridan is the only one.

Do you agree street parking on Walker would be helpful?

Do you agree street parking on Walker would be helpful?

not really any room on walker for on street parking

walker doesn't have a middle turn lane next to this building ..

just south of 10th walker is 2 lanes north and 1 south

at this building it is 1 lane each direction

Does Brown's bakery use all of their existing building?

In particular the south end of their building that looks like an old storage area?

No it's a dump and used as storage. Has broken windows and graffiti. I started a whole thread on this building awhile back. What a waste of potential.

Just the facts, we agree on many topics. There are very few streets that run 2 ways through downtown and out the other side. Maybe Sheridan is the only one.

off the top of my head .. east west

reno sheridan 2nd (ends at 235 east) 4th 6th

north south (these will all me 2 way soon) walker hudson robinson EKG

not really any room on walker for on street parking

walker doesn't have a middle turn lane next to this building ..

just south of 10th walker is 2 lanes north and 1 south

at this building it is 1 lane each direction

Ok, so 2 lanes either direction and 1 parking lane

off the top of my head .. east west

reno sheridan 2nd (ends at 235 east) 4th 6th

north south (these will all me 2 way soon) walker hudson robinson EKG

Walker, Hudson and Robinson will be 2-way soon? That makes me happy.

Do you agree street parking on Walker would be helpful?

Yes Walker should have on-street parking and it is possible even with limited room. In places where there is only room for one lane of on-street parking they could put it all on one side of the street or even put parallel parking in the middle of the street and allow cars to park in both directions (instead of a center turn lane). I also like "skinny streets' but that is not possible on Walker due to the volume. A skinny street is one with two rows of parking (one on each side) and a single two-way lane down the middle.

Center lane parallel parking:
http://cezl.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/473050858_ca38006c28.jpg

Skinny Street:
http://streetswiki.wikispaces.com/file/view/skinny-street-burden.jpg/130402829/744x500/skinny-street-burden.jpg

OMG. We can't have skinny streets. Look at that...trees, grass.....not allowed. Too suburban.

LOL. Can't believe you actually used that picture to promote one of your ideas.

OMG. We can't have skinny streets. Look at that...trees, grass.....not allowed. Too suburban.

LOL. Can't believe you actually used that picture to promote one of your ideas.

It is called the rural to urban transect and the trees are used to define the street wall instead of buildings. But you will notice that this street is straight and is not in a subdivision. This neighborhood is traditionally found at the edge of an urban cluster. Heritage Hills and Mesta Park would be some local examples.

This document does a pretty good job of explaining the rural to urban transect and although it is part of the New Urbanism strategy, it is one of my least favorite parts. To go with what Rover pointed out - I like the transition from rural to urban to be more well defined. But that is just me.

http://places.designobserver.com/media/pdf/Building_Commu_1336.pdf

http://syracusethenandnow.org/SettlementPlan/transect.jpg

I walked by this site earlier in the week and it looks like it will be a nice addition to the area with the patio. I think my favorite thing is the reuse of the old diamond liquor store sign. My very first job out of college was an audit in the Osler building across the street. We were required to work on Saturdays (some things never change) and I was asked by a bum for some change so he could get a little something from the liquor store where this restaurant will be. As a 21 year old woman, I did not feel real safe in that area back then. (Some things do change.)

OMG. We can't have skinny streets. Look at that...trees, grass.....not allowed. Too suburban.

LOL. Can't believe you actually used that picture to promote one of your ideas.

WTF? Looks urban to me. Certainly not suburban as you characterize it.

WTF? Looks urban to me. Certainly not suburban as you characterize it.

I believe he/she was being sarcastic.

I believe he/she was being sarcastic.

No he wasn't. What is ironic though is that Rover saw a part of New Urbanism that he liked even though he didn't know what he was looking at.

Wow. Poking some fun and some of you can't see I. Got to quit taking yourself so seriously. I WAS being sarcastic.