Addendum: Many of the people who are being blasphemed in this thread are investing their own money in downtown, not just ruling on what can be built.

These people fought for the NBA and are buying into downtown because they have something to gain from it. Right now, real estate in downtown OKC is cheaper than anywhere else in the country (downtown) and by investing in something so cheap, in an area that's guaranteed to boom, they stand to make a profit. All they're doing is contributing to a goldmine that's building momentum because of public faith, money, and support.

Hell, if I had the money and wanted to make sure my great-grandchildren's great-grandchildren never had to work, I'd invest in downtown Oklahoma City and do everything in my power to make it better, for my own sake.



Okay, this will probably get edited because someone's bound to cry foul, but I gotta do it.

Q: What did the pissed off Asian guy living in OKC say in response to OCURA's decision?

...give up?

A: I ruv Okurahoma City, but OCURA can rick my bars!




Gotta give it up for original jokes...

The good news is that the Mercy Park group still wants to go ahead with their development and are looking for a different site in Midtown to do so. :congrats:

Great! That's what I was hoping for. I'm fine with getting both. Overholser Green sounds like something that actually might last 100 years and still have architectural value.

Oh this is ridiculous.

You two's carrying on about this is really tarnishing your credibility. OCURA is nothing more than a bunch of civic makers and shakers with extremely tough schedules who know nothing about urban development for the most part, but try their best to serve the interest of the community.

Corrupt? Gimme a break. Many of the people who serve on this board are the ones that gave you guys NBA basketball. All of them are heavily, heavily invested in the downtown community.

The only thing that's corrupt here is the boy who cried wolf. As for Overholser Green, it was the correct proposal to choose for the site. I am delighted that Marva Ellard is still interested in going somewhere with Mercy Park ... perhaps she can choose a site that is better for her proposal fitting in with the integrity of the urban district.

You can't have the exact same urban mixed-use project block after block like you guys would have us get. We won't see a lot of Overholser Green proposals, especially on the right site, so let's pass 'em when we get 'em.

No, Spartan, your defending OCURA at every opportunity is tarnishing YOUR credibility. Today's posts have mostly been antagonistic of OCURA's secrecy in how they do business, lack of public information in a timely manner, last-minute meetings, meetings only to rubber-stamp what has already been decided....I could go on and on. And the idea that OCURA is a corrupt quasi-government entity is not exactly a new concept from metro or myself. There are some good members of OCURA, but I think most people who watch them in action pretty much have the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys' figured out; and if you don't, it's for not wanting to look at this group realistically, but idealistically. The fact that they are civic movers and shakers has nothing to do with anything. Civic movers and shakers the world over have benefited from outstretched hands for favors since time immemorial. The kind of control and authority OCURA (and similar counterparts in other American cities) have is a tempting position many find themselves in. And some take advantage of that opportunity. Oklahoma City is not immune to public corruption because some of our "movers and shakers" have been involved in basketball!

Suggestion: Instead of coming over here to OKCTalk and maligning our members and questioning our credibility, why not go back to your own forum and moderate there. Your forum competes with this board and then you think you can come here and question our motives. Our motives, Spartan, are a better Oklahoma City. When a few members of a secretive public authority make decisions that run counter to what some of us see as BASIC decisions gone wrong - we have every reason to question the secrecy, their way of doing business - and yes, their very reasons for doing what they do. It is a PUBLIC authority paid for with tax money from our pockets and the members can - and should - be held accountable. We don't need a competing forum owner coming here and telling us that OUR credibility is at stake because YOU have a different opinion.

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[QUOTE=jbrown84;90957]Great! That's what I was hoping for. I'm fine with getting both. Overholser Green sounds like something that actually might last 100 years and still have architectural value QUOTE]

I think it will look a lot like Legacy with a flat roof.. Same architect same materials.

From his quotes in okcbusiness; does it seem like Wiggin's is already back peddling . He doesn't seem very positive.:confused:


Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority gives Wiggin the OK

Pamela Grady
3/28/2007

The Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority today approved a tentative designation for Wiggin Properties LLC to develop a tract of land at the old Mercy site, located on NW 13 Street in Midtown. The vote was 5-0.
Wiggin Properties’ Overholser Green project was competing with Mercy Redevelopers LLC’s Mercy Park. Both submitted proposals to the committee at its regular February meeting, however the decision was tabled due to Chairman Fred Hall’s absence.

“What this means is they (OCURA) will enter into negotiations for a contract,” said Chuck Wiggin of Wiggin Properties LLC. “There will be a bunch of issues to work through in order to get a development agreement for a contract to purchase the land and building the development that we proposed. It’s a tentative designation, so if we can’t work everything out to everybody’s satisfaction then they go back to the drawing board and start over on selecting a developer.”

Marva Ellard, a principal of Mercy Developers, said her team still plans to develop their project, and will be looking for another site in Midtown.

“I do think the neighborhood should have had a voice in that (OCURA) committee, probably more than one,” Ellard said. “I’ve always felt that we had a lot of support from the Midtown neighborhood from Villa Teresa School to Mr. (Greg) Banta to the Unitarian Church and other people. And that encourages us to want to go on and find another site.”

Wiggin’s Overholser Green would showcase design influences from the Heritage Hills area. The project, which, if all goes according to plan should begin in about a year, would be designed by Architectural Design Group Inc. The $62 million investment would include 109 for-sale condominiums which will range from $350,000 to $800,000 per unit.

“There are several projects that are under construction right now that are being marketed ‘for sale.’ And one of the questions that we’ve had -- and everybody’s had -- is how deep is this downtown for-sale housing market? And particularly since these are not going to be expensive units, how deep is the market for high-end, large square-footage condominium units which are what we’ve proposed?

“Fortunately, we’ll have a lot better idea about that from the experience of these other projects by the time we’re ready to get started,” Wiggin said. “That works in our favor from a standpoint of better confidence and a better ability to get it financed.”

Proposal for condos chosen for Mercy site
by Kelley Chambers
The Journal Record
3/29/2007

OKLAHOMA CITY – The Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority commissioners settled on a developer Wednesday for the former Mercy Hospital site after considering two proposals since December.

The group voted unanimously to approve a project called Overholser Green, which calls for 109 condominiums ranging in price from $350,000 to $800,000.

The land is between NW 12th and NW 13th streets and Dewey and Walker avenues.

In a presentation to the commissioners last month, Overholser developer Chuck Wiggin said the project would include three four-story buildings and one eight-story building, all with connected underground parking.

Wiggin estimated the project would run about $62 million and would be built in phases over four years as sales warranted.

The other proposal, called Mercy Park, would have included multifamily units as well as retail and a hotel.

One of the project’s developers, Marva Ellard, said although she will not be doing business with Urban Renewal at the Mercy site, she still hopes to find a new site on private land and go ahead with her project.

“It might be the end of our plan as associated with Urban Renewal right now, but we intend on moving forward,” she said. “I think we’ve had a very good response from the neighborhood. We want to make an impact on Midtown.”

Ellard said even after the vote, her team was still intact, including Daniel Crain, senior vice president of Capmark based in Plano, Texas, who assured financing for the project to the commissioners in January.

After the vote, Crain said he was still on board for the project.

“The need for work force housing for Saint Anthony’s and the Health Sciences Center complex still remains,” he said.

Before the vote, JoeVan Bullard, executive director of OCURA, said Ellard faxed a request to commissioners the day of the vote to put the decision off until the city of Oklahoma City could review the request for Tax Incremental Finance district funds for both projects.

The board declined to postpone the vote and made a motion to move forward with choosing a developer.

Jim Tolbert made a motion to go ahead with the Overholser Green proposal, which was seconded by Fred Hall. The motion carried unanimously.

I simply can't understand why they chose the developer that isn't even sure what he proposes is viable, wants to wait and see what the market does before deciding, and in the best case scenario is planning to build in phases "as sales warrant" versus...

A developer that has the support of the neighborhood the development will occupy and already has funding in place.


Plus what happens if Wiggin decides there isn't a market for these very expensive condos (highly likely)? OCURA has made a habit of approving gradiose designs and projects (like the Legacy) and then letting developers drag things out forever and radically change their design from their original proposal without reconsideration or re-opening the properties for other bids.


And as I've said before, I don't think they are corrupt... I think they are largely misguided and have their own agendas based on personal interests. That, combined with any real background in urban design, continues to yield some very odd and questionable decisions.

And as I've said before, I don't think they are corrupt... I think they are largely misguided and have their own agendas based on personal interests. That, combined with any real background in urban design, continues to yield some very odd and questionable decisions.

I agree. This was definitely a mistake. Hopefully they will sell well like the 360 and he will actually build it as planned and quickly.



I think it will look a lot like Legacy with a flat roof.. Same architect same materials.

A flat roof? Huh?

Wiggins = Hogan

Right now, day one for the OG project and it already sounds like a mistake. How does this keep happening again and again. First it was Brictown and Hogan, next was the Arts area and Legacy, then it was the Triangle area, and now we have Midtown. Something isn't right here, I am not saying that anyone is corrupt, I am just saying it isn't right.

And yet the local media doesn't have the balls to state the facts and expose them for who they are!

And Spartan, who are we losing credibility with? You? Darn! In fact, with your former screenname of SoonerRiceGrad and unstable behavior, you're one of the top unreliable sources of information and often post just to spite people. And as writeranger mentioned, you have a competing website, if anything that shows poorly on you. You couldn't pay me to visit your site and I don't plan on it. OCURA's practices are plain and simple WRONG and not in the taxpayers best interest. Where is the disclosure? Where are public records? Why aren't they ever questioned? And who on their board was influential in landing the NBA? Jim Tolbert and Fred Jones Hall are OCURA's main influencers primarily Fred, and they don't have an interest in the OKC Basketball Club. Get your facts straight and attend a meeting for once and you might know something. Oh and FYI, I do own a piece of downtown real estate, not that I need to to put my money where my mouth is, but I do anyways. In fact, I own property very close to this old Mercy site, so I should have a stronger say so than a suburbanite who also lived/lives in Houston and has a sketchy presence on this site.

Metro... I love your passion for OKC, but you have some issues.
You couldn't pay me to visit your site and I don't plan on it.

Are we a bunch of fifth graders? By the way, my dad can beat up your dad.

Back on topic, I liked both projects. I will only be upset if we get duped like we did on the Legacy project. The original renderings looked great... the final project is decent. As long as OG delievers what they proposed, I will be happy with the decision. I hope that Ellard's group moves forward at another site. All is not lost.

I don't think this is the end of the world either, especially since both projects will probably get built, but I still think OCURA continues to make bad decisions and something has to change there. Should we just count on all the best developments and developers to keep getting screwed but hope they find another location?

Regarding OG, I'm very concerned it will never be built as proposed and there doesn't seem to be anything in the way OCURA operates to prevent developers from pitching one thing and building something complete different. That is totally unaccpetable.

Good grief, Wiggin is already qualifying what he plans to do with lots of caveats and doesn't even have financing. I really hope things go well but my common sense and knowledge of OKC tells me that he's going to have a very tough sell at that price point.


Frankly, I think things are going so well in OKC that even the most bone-headed decisions by OCURA can't completely screw it up.

Metro... I love your passion for OKC, but you have some issues.


I'm sure Metro can fend for himself, but where do you get off saying someone else has issues; especially when all he did was voice his dislike for another site? Explain to me how this somehow falls into the category of acting like fifth graders.

Your statement was uncalled for and has no credibility.

Let me clarify. Metro... you shouldn't get upset all the time. It seems that you are always worked up about something. You didn't get the right kind of service at a restaurant, the food was not up to your standard, OCURA is corrupt, Spartan is an idiot, I can't believe that this hasn't been posted yet, there is already a thread for that, etc.

There are a lot of people on this board that read Spartan's board and I am sure that many are glad that you will never participate in discussion on that board. Calm down... relax. Enjoy life.

Hey everyone, didn't you see that Steve Lackmeyer did have an article that mentioned the suspiciouns surrounding OCURA the other day? It was one about Overholser vs. Mercy the other day, and it gave the time and place for the meeting.

Let me clarify. Metro... you shouldn't get upset all the time. It seems that you are always worked up about something. You didn't get the right kind of service at a restaurant, the food was not up to your standard, OCURA is corrupt, Spartan is an idiot, I can't believe that this hasn't been posted yet, there is already a thread for that, etc.

There are a lot of people on this board that read Spartan's board and I am sure that many are glad that you will never participate in discussion on that board. Calm down... relax. Enjoy life.


If you know me, I'm usually not worked up about something unless others who are on this website to spark these debates through something they know will spark my fire or someone elses.

I think if you read my near 4,000 posts, probably less than 1 or 2 % are me upset. OCURA upsets me, plain and simple. I don't like my tax dollars being screwed around with, especially when I live in the area they do so with.

Restaurants, only one time (by others starting the fire) did I get upset. False accusations on a personal matter (the night I got engaged and my wedding) did get me upset, I'll admit. Not everyone gets all the facts or asks for both sides of the story. Both other than that ONE instance, I don't get upset over a restaurant. I may dislike the restaurant and not patronize it, but I don't get upset. Have you ever read a restaurant review from the NY Times? Just curious because you'll see much worse from a real food critic (not Carol Smaglinski of the Gazette).

Spartan, well, that speaks for itself.

Don't you think if my opinion generally agrees with the majority on any given topic that I'm probably in the general consensus? I know my common sense tells me that anyone with any stance on any topic that agrees with the majority is probably in the general consensus.

Most on this website argue or dislike Spartan's posts. His constant spitefulness and tactics warranted the comment of why I wouldn't visit his site.

I do enjoy life and OKC. If I didn't I wouldn't be so passionate about it or be on this site!

I wouldn't visit his site, either...It's dog****. OKMET.ORG. Dog****.

Not only that... it smells bad.

Metro, you make some good points. I disagree with your thoughts on Spartan, but that is only one man's opinion. I will lay off. I like your passion for OKC... it is evident.

Not only that... it smells bad.

Metro, you make some good points. I disagree with your thoughts on Spartan, but that is only one man's opinion. I will lay off. I like your passion for OKC... it is evident.

Very well said. You know, when I first came to this board I was put off by metro's policing threads and such. He's stopped doing that and brings more things happening in OKC to the attention of this board than anyone else. His ear is to the ground - always. And you are absolutely right, metro has a passion and love for Oklahoma City that is so evident. I have also come to respect his actions as well. He doesn't just talk anonymously from this board like many of the rest of us; he attends meetings, writes letters, makes phone calls, it's just not all cheap talk for him. I respect that - a lot. He is an extremely valuable asset to OKCTalk and to all of Oklahoma City for that matter.

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Many of the people who are being blasphemed in this thread are investing their own money in downtown

That's actually what leads to corruption. I'm not saying OCURA is corrupt, I'm just saying that when you have civic leaders with financial interest in the projects they oversee, then it is pretty hard for them to be objective.

Frankly, that's pretty hard to overcome in just about any community. Very few people take or get power out of some perfectly altruistic circumstance. Many of these people seek appointment to OCURA because they know they can at least protect their financial interests, if not get an actual pay day out of it. Honestly, there aren't many places where this isn't true.

Sometimes it works out great, but it is a bad working assumption that what is good for these people’s balance sheets is good for the community. I think all anyone is asking from OCURA is a little more consideration for the public for which they are ideally working. They usually don’t really seem to be doing anything to hide the fact that they are working for themselves. Ironically, this deal actually seems to have been a little more transparent than others. They at least talked to some local residents.

In the end, it is unfortunate that all we can really get are people with financial interests in the area and not people who are knowledgeable in urban redevelopment.

http://writingcompany.blogs.com/this_isnt_writing_its_typ/images/guillotine.jpg

Let's bring that nasty Spartan down.

P.S. Back in the SRG days I recall many on here treating my like their ring leader, especially the arch nemesis with you people, Tulsans. I also don't see how my Houston affiliations tarnishes my image. As for unstable behavior, you only need look in this thread. As for just coming on here to stir the pot, my opinions I share with you all are just as consistent and vocal as I share anywhere else. As for metro loving life so much, I don't understand why he must blaspheme development and me in particular.

As for everyone hating Overholser Green, it seemed to me that the general consensus when the two proposals came out was that at least OCURA wouldn't be able to screw up this time either way it went. As for Randy Hogan, he was just 100 times more credible a developer than Moshe Tal, all you need to look at is the aftermath of the decision. As for my personal credibility, I am the source for many major economic and downtown development leaks.

If anyone wants to see my masterplan for Midtown, in case anyone else is interested in knowing what my stances on future development deals will be, just let me know.

What is your master plan, Spartan?

Well, here it is!

http://okmet.org/bb/gallery/2_23_03_07_5_01_36.jpg



There is one for Riverside too, for now. Bricktown, East Reno, and the Arts District are coming up.

I like your master plan Spartan.

Does anyone know the latest on the OG project??

It does look like there is some utility ground work being done near 13th and walker. I wonder if this has anything to do with the O. G. project. Maybe one of the Okc talk reporters can find out more info on where this project stands or sits.

Last I heard that was utility work for Banta's Midtown projects. The Overholser Green group (urghhhhhhhh) was wanting to pre-sell like 50% or so of the units before starting phase I of construction. I believe they are anticipating that to be some time next year. With units $300K plus, I won't be surprised. Clearly it was a poor yet not surprised choice by Urban Renewal (OCURA). I'm sure this one will be like the Hill or Legacy Summit at Arts Central and take a few years to get going just like most of OCURA's projects usually do.

I would at least like to see a sign on that piece of property, with a design drawing that could advertise with a website or phone number to call about buying a condo at the OG.

Hopefully, they take awhile. I wouldn't mind having a condo across the street from my office.