Top Democrat: Bring back the draft

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Americans would have to sign up for a new military draft after turning 18 if the incoming chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee has his way.

New York Democratic Rep. Charles Rangel said Sunday he sees his idea as a way to deter politicians from launching wars. He believes a draft would bolster U.S. troop levels that are currently insufficient to cover potential future action in Iran, North Korea and Iraq.

"There's no question in my mind that this president and this administration would never have invaded Iraq, especially on the flimsy evidence that was presented to the Congress, if indeed we had a draft, and members of Congress and the administration thought that their kids from their communities would be placed in harm's way," Rangel said.

Rangel, a veteran of the Korean War who has unsuccessfully sponsored legislation on conscription in the past, said he will propose a measure early next year.

In 2003, he proposed a draft covering people age 18 to 26. This year, he offered a plan to mandate military service for men and women between age 18 and 42. It went nowhere in the Republican-led Congress.

Democrats will control the House and Senate come January because of their victories in the November 7 mid-term election.

At a time when some lawmakers are urging the military to send more troops to Iraq, "I don't see how anyone can support the war and not support the draft," said Rangel.

He also proposed a draft in January 2003, before the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

Sen. Lindsey Graham, a South Carolina Republican who is a colonel in the U.S. Air Force Standby Reserve, said he agreed that the U.S. does not have enough people in the military.

"I think we can do this with an all-voluntary service, all-voluntary Army, Air Force, Marine Corps and Navy. And if we can't, then we'll look for some other option," said Graham, who is assigned as a reserve judge to the Air Force Court of Criminal Appeals.

Rangel and Graham appeared on "Face the Nation" on CBS.

glad i'm in my 30's


this year, he offered a plan to mandate military service for men and women between age 18 and 42. it went nowhere in the Republican-led Congress.

ummm... not so fast. hope you like combat boots, 'cause it looks like you're gonna get drafted, too! :P -M

Well, I'll probably be over 42 by the time we have this, anyway...

The draft should have never been discontinued in the first place. Two years active duty helps society. It teaches respect, responsibility, disipline, courage, and pride.

All of these are things we are lacking in society today. Yes, there are some that have it, and some of those that have these qualities have not served in the military, however, most people today are rude, pushy, self centered, cowards that have no true pride in this country. They THINK they do, however, they have no TRUE pride.

The military teaches all this.

When we had the draft in the past, you had no choice as to which branch you went in. This part I would change. Ask the draftee which branch he or she (yes, I said she) chooses, and let them in it. As long as it is a branch of the military, that is good enough.

Plus. No less than honorable discharge for not following orders. Some would refuse orders just to get out. Send them to Levenworth for the rest of their hitch.

<------ 37-year-old Conscientious Objector who wholeheartedly supports the draft for the vast legions of Chickenhawks in this country.

The draft should have never been discontinued in the first place. Two years active duty helps society. It teaches respect, responsibility, disipline, courage, and pride.



mranderson...I already have 4 out of 5 of those listed above so that's good enough in my book....Plus courage is overrated :tiphat:

Since it's up to age 42 I guess I need to also list my max number of pushups at 10

Yeah, the draft would skip me right over. I think they like people to have full vision and be able to aim things. And have depth perception.

I'll admit, I'm not a supporter of the draft. People shouldn't be forced into the military. It will just make people resent it even more. That's my opinion, I'm entitled to it. I know many of you will disagree, but I have also not been around many military people in my life. I understand why someone would join, as I have had friends who have. Luckily, they are still alive. But I can't support the government making people do something so life-altering without the people having a say in the matter.

I have two boys. I would die if they got drafted. If they decide to join on their own, that's one thing but to force them to go and most likely get injured or killed is another. Especially for this war, a place where we should have never gone to begin with..

I have friends who joined the military - mostly because the recruiter painted a wonderful picture of the education they would receive (wasn't true by any stretch)... they all hated it. They didn't come out any more respectful or reliable or any of the supposed attributes that the military teaches. They felt as if they were tricked. I'm vehemently opposed to a draft.

New York Democratic Rep. Charles Rangel said Sunday he sees his idea as a way to deter politicians from launching wars. He believes a draft would bolster U.S. troop levels that are currently insufficient to cover potential future action in Iran, North Korea and Iraq.


Classic political "doublespeak". "To deter war" is no better of a game playing scenario than the various Generals and Admirals who still want to wage war with WW II techniques when armament, intelligence gathering, and a host of other variables have changed.

"Bolstering troop levels"? - troop levels are mandated by Congress!:Smiley053

Note to flamers - I spent 20 years on active duty!

The draft should have never been discontinued in the first place. Two years active duty helps society. It teaches respect, responsibility, disipline, courage, and pride.

The military teaches all this.



Sorry mranderson, the military DOES NOT teach all this (based on 20 years personal involvement).
The military is a micro-ism of society as a whole. There are patriots and bums, irresponsible types and hard workers, leadwers and followers. Personality traits not taught at an early age cannot be taught in a two year mandatory enlistment.
The military can only clearly state consequences for behavior and allow the individual to make a "somewhat" informed decision.:Smiley053

Sorry mranderson, the military DOES NOT teach all this (based on 20 years personal involvement).
The military is a micro-ism of society as a whole. There are patriots and bums, irresponsible types and hard workers, leadwers and followers. Personality traits not taught at an early age cannot be taught in a two year mandatory enlistment.
The military can only clearly state consequences for behavior and allow the individual to make a "somewhat" informed decision.:Smiley053

I do not know about the military of the country YOU live in, however, in the United States, they do.

DROP AND GIVE ME TWENTY!

so anderson, how many years did you serve in the armed forces? -M

mranderson--were you ever in the military? Are you a commanding officer? You might want to be careful spouting off orders to people.

I agree with NE_Oasis--you can't teach personality traits. It's like school--a school can say they teach responsibility, and a hard-working attitude; but it just isn't there for some. We can try with all our might and never change some kids. How would the military accomplish this?

And frankly, I don't think forcing people to join the military is going to make them want to work harder or be more responsible. I think it would just cause more resentment among those who have to deal with it.

We aren't all cut out for military involvement. I know I'm not, despite my vision difficulties. I'm not the kind of person who could handle it. I don't think I am unpatriotic for not serving in the military one bit. Maybe others would say I am, but I would say those people do not know me in the least.

mranderson--were you ever in the military? Are you a commanding officer? You might want to be careful spouting off orders to people.

I agree with NE_Oasis--you can't teach personality traits. It's like school--a school can say they teach responsibility, and a hard-working attitude; but it just isn't there for some. We can try with all our might and never change some kids. How would the military accomplish this?

And frankly, I don't think forcing people to join the military is going to make them want to work harder or be more responsible. I think it would just cause more resentment among those who have to deal with it.

We aren't all cut out for military involvement. I know I'm not, despite my vision difficulties. I'm not the kind of person who could handle it. I don't think I am unpatriotic for not serving in the military one bit. Maybe others would say I am, but I would say those people do not know me in the least.

No. However, my dad was. And before you cite my signature (as it read when this was posted) which says Sgt. Anderson, my dad was second in command of the Second Ranger Battalion, E company in Normandy (D-day). When his Lt. was killed in action, dad was named commanding officer. Therefore, he was a commanding officer, and told me everything I say below, and enforced it with me. You explain how the military does NOT teach disipline, courage, respect, and pride. You must follow the orders of the officers appointed over you (any one that out ranks you) or you are courtmarshalled. You must respect others by addressing officers and even civilians as sir or ma'm, you must learn to fight for freedom which takes courage. You must salute the flag and respect it, therefore take pride in your country and yourself as well as your fellow American. The military teaches all of these... Most parents do not anymore.

I didn't even read the signature. I rarely ever do.

I don't see how being forced to follow someone's orders teaches anything other than blind obedience. We don't all respond well to that kind of treatment. I was taught that it is okay to question why you had to do something, even to question my own parents or teachers, as long as I did it in a respectful way. Questioning someone does not equal disrespect, it simply shows curiosity and a need for knowledge.

Spare the war stories, I do not need them. I have known people to go above and beyond in the military, however I will not share the long stories here. I have respect for those that voluntarily join the military. I just don't think that we need to make it mandatory. You're sitting pretty in your 50's, mranderson, and the draft would not affect you. But it could affect me and mine, and that makes for a very different perspective on this issue.

The draft DID affect me. No, I was not drafted because it ended around my 18th birthday, however, I had a low number and would have been called. My dad told me he would take me to a recruiter to enlist instead, and I would have.

The disipline, etc? In a way, I DID get military lessons. From my dad who was very much a disiplinarian.

I guess you are just too young to understand... Or do not care.

I don't think the military changes you, rather it gives people a chance to change themselves. That being said, I believe following orders and conforming to certain standards can help build character.

I would be in favor of a mandatory two year enlistment ONLY if we had elected officials who wouldn't send us into harms unless its absolutely necessary. To prevent an all out war on this thread, I'm not going any further with that particular comment.

And I guess you, mranderson, are just too old to understand my point of view. Do not assume that I do not care. Just because I don't support a mandatory draft for such a large age group of people does not mean that I "do not care" about the issue, our country, its safety, or the people in it. However, if you think that I do not care about your upbringing, or the lessons you learned from your father, you are correct sir.

The draft should have never been discontinued in the first place. Two years active duty helps society. It teaches respect, responsibility, disipline, courage, and pride.

All of these are things we are lacking in society today. Yes, there are some that have it, and some of those that have these qualities have not served in the military, however, most people today are rude, pushy, self centered, cowards that have no true pride in this country. They THINK they do, however, they have no TRUE pride.

The military teaches all this.





So mranderson you are in favor of the draft and two year mandatory service, but you were never in the military?...May I ask why you didn't join then when you had the chance?

So mranderson you are in favor of the draft and two year mandatory service, but you were never in the military?...May I ask why you didn't join then when you had the chance?

I did not pass the eye exam. And, yes. I am totally in favor of the draft. It will make men out of boys, as I said before.

Well then with all due respect since you didn't actually do the two years of military service I don't agree with your assertion that young boys should be forced to in order to become better men

I respect the hell out of those who join voluntarily, but I turned out just fine being the son of a print shop owner and seeing no combat

I love my country, I hate what we are doing right now! I would support the draft IF I knew for a fact that the very people who placed us in this disgraceful war would sent their own children to the front. Will that happen?? No!!!

Our political leaders have only the money fueling their patriotism. War is just their excuse to fund and line their own pockets and those of their cronies!!! I am afraid that the US of today and the armed services of today are NOT what they were 50 years ago.

I am sick to my stomach right now and if I say anything more, I will be sorry.....

:sofa:

I love my country, I hate what we are doing right now! I would support the draft IF I knew for a fact that the very people who placed us in this disgraceful war would sent their own children to the front. Will that happen?? No!!!

Our political leaders have only the money fueling their patriotism. War is just their excuse to fund and line their own pockets and those of their cronies!!! I am afraid that the US of today and the armed services of today are NOT what they were 50 years ago.

I am sick to my stomach right now and if I say anything more, I will be sorry.....

:sofa:

This war is NOT a disgrace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is a neccesary evil. If we did not go after these creeps, then you would probably cease to exist due to their terrorism.

Enough said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have said what I believe and what I feel is true.

mranderson--you don't know what would have happened if we didn't go into Iraq and Afghanistan. Do not pretend you do. I don't know what would have happened, either. We can play the "what if" game til one of us goes to the grave and it wouldn't matter.

We are entitled to our opinions, no matter how many !!!!!!!!!!!'s you put after your statements. Exclamation points do not make a statement true.

How ironic. At the start of the war in Afghanistan, the Democrats were moaning and howling about how we are going to be forced to reinstate the draft...doing everything in their power to scare the hell out of everyone. It got even worse when Iraq loomed on the horizon. But it never materialized. Now that they have a modicum of power back in their hands, who is it that's working on reinstating the draft? A Democrat. Well America, you voted for it.

Anyway, I disagree with the draft - I think the best sort of military is an all-volunteer military. The draft should be a thing born of military necessity, not one for reshaping our culture to fit a certain group's ideal. However, I'm certainly not against anyone joining the military. I have nothing but respect for those that volunteer for serving their country. I just think it needs to remain a choice. Leave unnecessary forced conscription for the N. Koreans.

This war is NOT a disgrace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is a neccesary evil. If we did not go after these creeps, then you would probably cease to exist due to their terrorism.

Enough said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. Terrorists don't hate Americans because we're free as Bush will tell us time and time again. They hate Americans because we're in their holy land.

2. Reports have shown Iraq was NOT a threat to America. Realizing this could've saved 350 billion dollars as of yet and nearly 3,000 American lives. Iraq is now in a civil war and worse off as a country. We have found NO weapons of mass destruction and we have failed to bring peace to the region. Before 9/11, the Bush Administration stated Iraq had no WMD. After 9/11, the propaganda wheel started turning once Bush realized who would profit from a war with Iraq.

Meanwhile, we have terrorists crossing the borders illegally, probably on an everyday basis. It scares me to speculate what they might have already brought into our country. The funding for the Iraq war could've been used to erect an actual border and focus our efforts to actually protecting Americans within our borders. Don't believe the crap you hear from Bush about how he protects Americans. He was given a briefing regarding the 9/11 hijackings on Aug 6, 2001 but he was too busy taking vacations to do anything about it.

I'm done for tonight, but this is an argument I could make all day so I'll post more for tomorrow. Its pointless to even try tonight.

I think a lot of it had to do with way too optimistic recommendations from his advisors and expatriates from Iraq...Thought it would be a cakewalk and the Sunni's and Shiite's would come together after years of oppression form the first real democracy in the Middle East and it would eventually spread throughout

So far not so good on the "experiment"...Way too optimistic and weren't even close to being prepared for this mess...No way out now at least in the short term...We are officially stuck

One thing is you can't blame it all on Bush...He ultimately pulled the trigger, but there are many others to blame for this mess all over Washington

Meanwhile, we have terrorists crossing the borders illegally, probably on an everyday basis. It scares me to speculate what they might have already brought into our country. The funding for the Iraq war could've been used to erect an actual border and focus our efforts to actually protecting Americans within our borders. Don't believe the crap you hear from Bush about how he protects Americans. He was given a briefing regarding the 9/11 hijackings on Aug 6, 2001 but he was too busy taking vacations to do anything about it.

I'm done for tonight, but this is an argument I could make all day so I'll post more for tomorrow. Its pointless to even try tonight.

I'm not real concerned with our borders as we have ignored them for hundreds of years...Don't think for a second that Mexico isn't carefully screening and monitoring those who come into their country...You can be sure if a Mohammad Hassein is trying to enter their country they will not allow entry or keep a close eye on him.... They know if something happens and it's found out the terrorist came through Mexico the border is shutdown forever...Remember most if not all the 9/11 terrorists entered the US through the proper channels

Remember, folks, this thread is about re-instating the draft....not about President Bush and his decisions. If you would like to discuss that, start a thread in the political forum. Let's stay on topic.....otherwise, posts that are off topic will be deleted.

The entire concept of reinstating the draft from Mr. Rengel is nothing more than political grandstanding. It's never going to happen. Even speaker-to-be Pelosi has already suggested that the idea will never see the light of day.

If you explored Rengel's comments further, he pointed out too that the mandatory two-year service commitment (which might or might not be military over the long haul) should be followed up by education benefits..who ever would have thought of the draft as a mechanism for yet another government handout...sheesh...


-SoonerDave

Keith--

Would we not be debating whether or not we should have a mandatory draft if Bush and his people had not taken us to war in the Middle East? If you think about that, then the comments made about the current administration don't seem so off-topic, I think.

Keith, I think one of the arguments in favor of or against mandatory service is tied to our political leaders and their stance on war. As long as our leaders don't recklessly send troops into harms way, I would favor a mandatory service proposal. If however, we have an administration that shoots first and asks questions later, I'd rather have an all voluntary service.

Regardless of where you stand on the subject of a draft, you're going to have to furnish a reasoning for your position. The argument for a draft and the current administration are linked, and therefore discussing our political leaders is just. I was merely throwing in my two cents. All I ask is, if the thread is too political for the underground, please move the thread to the political forum. I'll do my best to play by the rules and post where appropriate, but I believe deleting posts is a form of censorship and should only be used as a last resort.

Besides, does it really matter if a political discussion is held in the underground forum? People are going to post their thoughts wherever the discussion is held. The folks on the board speak their mind while the board gets it's traffic; as a result, everyone wins. I write this all, of course, with complete respect for you and everyone else on this board. Thank you for giving us a channel to let our voice be heard.