If Hogan wasn't involved, it'd be a comprehensive and synergistic dense mix of retail, entertainment, and dining lining the canal with an architectural design that compliments and enhances the improvements paid for by the consumers of this city.

You can't really prove that. If Tal has been awarded the contract, we may very well be facing financing problems and other issues now. Tal didn't have his act together. Look at his own property to get a glimpse of what that guy is like. The only other company bidding on the projects was Sooner, and they mostly develop strip malls. From what I've been told, they had no real plan outlined.


OK, so we can't prove that any more than you can prove your contention, but what we do know is that Hogan and the Bass Pro deal has made sure it will never be that.

Although I'm not a Randy Hogan lover, Bass Pro Shops is really not that bad. I actually think we have one of the nicer stores in the country.

You can't really prove that. If Tal has been awarded the contract, we may very well be facing financing problems and other issues now. Tal didn't have his act together. Look at his own property to get a glimpse of what that guy is like. The only other company bidding on the projects was Sooner, and they mostly develop strip malls. From what I've been told, they had no real plan outlined.

I know. I wasn't suggesting that Tal would have pulled it off or that that was Tal's vision in the first place. Tal may not have had his act together, but it's clear that Hogan doesn't. The real question in all of this is why the city didn't require better. No one, Hogan or otherwise, should have been allowed to just piece it off in pad sites and surface parking.


Although I'm not a Randy Hogan lover, Bass Pro Shops is really not that bad. I actually think we have one of the nicer stores in the country.

I don't doubt that it's a nice Bass Pro, but it shouldn't be there. It was my understanding that OKC wanted an urban entertainment district. Well, what idiot heard that and thought "Bass Pro would be perfect! We have to get that even if we finance it!"?

Bass Pro, with its massive blacktop surface parking lot which fronts the canal and has a bigger foot print than the store itself, set the stage for lower bricktown. Maybe it brought in some other businesses (although I don't see any connection), but it certainly prevented lower brikctown from being any kind of urban entertainment district.

So, I don't hate Bass Pro. I hate where it is and I hate that we had to pay for them to be there.

I'm a major Oklahoma City businessman, and I have to say I agree with you. I know Randy, but being that I'm somewhat anonymous here, I can be honest with you that the guy doesn't have the slightest idea what the word urban means.

He doesn't bug me so much to be honest, as say, Jim Brewer...he understands urban but would rather be a seedy man when it comes to things, i.e., the Parking Lot Lord of Bricktown.

And he considers his parking lots as significant Bricktown development...himself a significant developer? No longer...the last decent thing he did was Union Station.

Bass Pro Shops is really not that bad. I actually think we have one of the nicer stores in the country.


everone other bass pro I have been to which is about 4 or 5 is much, much nicer and larger than the okc one. Even the tulsa one seems much better

I did not know there is a bass pro in tulsa,Maybe you mean broken arrow.

The broken arrow store is nice but to say it is much nicer is going a bit to far,which 4 or 5 stores have you been to?Personally I like to eat at a restaurant in bricktown then ride the water taxi down to the bass pro,stroll down to the land run monument,now thats nice.Why do you think the broken arrow store is much better.

spartan,,, jim fell upon the parking lot business by accident....what sparked the whole deal was he and karchmer leased the chelinos lot to chelinos and spag warehouse for a thousand dollars a month......(in which they had a million dollar debt) however that benefited bricktown..agree....one day at 10am it was full (not by customers that supported bricktown)but by the employee's. That is why he started the paid parking......and after the first month everybody was successful.....the restaurant and the parking lot....but more importantly bricktown. Its not a mall its an entertainment district

spartan,,, jim fell upon the parking lot business by accident....what sparked the whole deal was he and karchmer leased the chelinos lot to chelinos and spag warehouse for a thousand dollars a month......(in which they had a million dollar debt) however that benefited bricktown..agree....one day at 10am it was full (not by customers that supported bricktown)but by the employee's. That is why he started the paid parking......and after the first month everybody was successful.....the restaurant and the parking lot....but more importantly bricktown. Its not a mall its an entertainment district

Pay parking in those parts of Bricktown makes a lot of sense. Consider that downtown is within an easily walkable distance and that parking down there on a monthly basis costs a lot of money. Don't think for a second that a frugal (a/k/a cheap) business owner would instruct his employees to park in the "free" Bricktown lots and walk to work if he could get away with it.

The current setup isn't bad at all. If you don't mind walking a little bit, you can park on the street downtown or out by Bass Pro. If you do mind the walk, then you pay to park. It's really not a bad deal.

I agree. Honestly, people should be thankful there is the option for free parking at all. I'm not familiar with any other downtown area where you don't at least have to feed a meter.

coming from a parking person there is a lot of free parking you just have to find it......agree.....just like columbus....he never thought the world was round...still doesnt make him stupid.....i could bitch all day but i love everything dont you except miranda agusta

Somebody told me that some parking spaces will be $20 tonight, near the Ford Center.

And why not? Parking spaces a mile away from the stadium are $20 at OU games. At least downtown they have a lot of free parking options, some very close to the arena.

This is America people... if there is money to be made, people are going to make it.

amen

ChristianConservative (who apparently is banned????????) has a good point about Moshe Tal. If he really had all this money and plans (well we know he had the latter), then why didn't he take some remnant of that project to another part of downtown or anywhere in the metro for that matter? When Coury Properties lost the bid for the Skirvin, they went and bought the Colcord and beat the Skirvin to completion.

I was playing around with google earth and came to the realization that I would be more excited about this image of Lower Bricktown than what we currently have. With a clean slate, there is hope.

http://www.okctalk.com/gallery/data/500/medium/Before_the_mess.jpg

Density can still happen in Lower Bricktown. You fill in the parking lots on either side of Sonic, that's a big improvement. You build something on the parking lots in front of Bass Pro and the Residence Inn, more improvements. Tear down the stand alone Toby Keith's (move it somewhere else in Bricktown) and build warehouse-style brick buildings with lofts and canal-level retail right up next to the theater. Lower Bricktown can be saved, but who is going to be the one to do it?

everyone has to remember that lower bt is not developed by a bt man

Folks, it's probably time to get over it. Look toward making the future of Bricktown better, rather than whine about something that is already done and cannot be changed.

Your right Randy... it is time to move on.

Yeah, I agree. Randy Hogan should move on. Enough of his defecation disguised as development. :D

Look toward making the future of Bricktown better, rather than whine about something that is already done and cannot be changed.

That's what we're doing. We're looking forward to Hogan's developments being replaced with something that is good for the future of bricktown. We're just using the current developments as a template for what NOT to do next time.

BG918, I think you make good points. It can be changed and it can be better. It will take a serious change in philosophy, though.

Something different could have been done, sure, but the point now is that something was done. Lots are being filled in, soon there will be condos and a bowling alley... How much of Bricktown's current success is related or helped by the movie theater? We have no way to gauge the positive impact that Lower Bricktown businesses have made. Toby's fans are coming from around the country to eat at his restaurant, I'm sure. The Residence Inn will obviously benefit all of Bricktown. Bass Pro is a very busy store and the only department store we have downtown (it sells nice clothes in addition to outdoorsy stuff and boats), Sonic looks like it is putting in retail spaces in the HQ building. Everything is good. More density will happen, especially after I-40 is moved.

We are much better off now than that empty field, no matter what it looks like, and to me the surface lots represent opportunities for future development. It's there, we're stuck with it for at least a few decades, people are supporting it, and it is supporting the rest of downtown's development.

We are much better off now than that empty field, no matter what it looks like, and to me the surface lots represent opportunities for future development. It's there, we're stuck with it for at least a few decades, people are supporting it, and it is supporting the rest of downtown's development.

We'll just have to disagree on that one. It has not been developed for density and those buildings that are there are actually preventing it not creating it. An empty field would at least hold the possibility of density. Right now, as is, it doesn't have that potential and would take a complete shift in development philosophy (and maybe even a bull dozer or two) to achieve that critical mass of storefronts. I agree the movie theater helps with traffic, but you can see that there isn't enough square footage or storefronts for any real retail district to emerge and there isn't much space left to create it. What is there isn't even laid out with that kind of market in mind.

It's been a few years since lower bricktown and Bass Pro were "planned" and developed and it just hasn't delivered as promise, as evident by the lack of interest by retailers in general and the failure of much of what has been attempted. Saying that lower bricktown is supporting other downtown developments is specious at best. Most of what else is happening in downtown is the result of planners trying to move as far away from a lower bricktown type development as possible.

I agree that places like the movie theater and Bass Pro help traffic and bring people to the area, but Hogan completely failed to plan around those attractions in such a way to maximize to the return on and synergy of that traffic. There is no flow to it and it really all feels disjointed and unrelated. The canal, instead of being the central focus of traffic, connecting the district together, now actually seems like an out of place barrier. Nothing about it seems planned in any way, and that's because none of it was planned.

well said BDP

I think once the Centennial is up, the area immediately surrounding Centennial Plaza will be nice and dense. Not tall--but dense. But the rest of the development sucks. At least the Centennial will have canal level retail.

I agree the Centennial may provide a glimpse of what could have been done, but I'm not sure that it alone will create enough storefront density to really get the retail juices going. I could be wrong, and I hope I am. I honestly can't get a real grasp on the scope of it and how much retail it will actually have.

For retail to happen in Bricktown, it still needs a real anchor tenant (one that is actually tied to other retail storefronts) or it needs several unique and interesting stores that, as a group, create a shopping destination of their own. Even with the latter you will probably have to have some sort of mid-size anchor step up and take the plunge before you see any real occupancy rates. Something like an Urban Outfitters that has a national brand, but no presence in OKC, could probably provide the spark needed, but I think any national retailer would need to know there was a comprehensive long term plan for growing retail in the district. Does that exist?

I think the Centennial is the first thing down there that makes a little sense and will allow retailers to feed off the movie traffic, but I am not convinced it is enough at this point. The funny thing is that, if it does work, it won't be enough. There's not much room to grow around there anymore. You run into the problem of Hogan’s no-plan strategy.

We’ll see, though…

I don't know that Bricktown will ever be the place for real retail. It's an entertainment district. We might have to wait on the retail for north Riverside, when I-40 is moved, just south of the new boulevard. I think that's a likely place for a good future retail district.

Yeah. I'm mainly talking about just having a dense cluseter or buildings in that one area. That will be a big notch up for Hogan.

I don't know that Bricktown will ever be the place for real retail. It's an entertainment district. We might have to wait on the retail for north Riverside, when I-40 is moved, just south of the new boulevard. I think that's a likely place for a good future retail district.

That's too bad, but you may be right. An entertainment district needs retail so that it can generate revenues all the time and generate more traffic during the day. Most entertainment districts have a healthy dose of retail with them. At least, the ones that survive and grow do. We may have lost our opportunity to make bricktown a more day and night attraction by including retail.

It will be a shame if it just spreads out to riverside leaving bricktown empty most days.

well if you would go way way back the city wanted the canal to go straight through the compress lot in front of the uhaul building and never to go down california (existing properties) ,,,,,,,,,,if that would of happened we would have an awsome park, adjacent to bricktown............however it sparked lower bricktown along with existing historic buildings which is why we are here today because of whom.????????

I don't don't know who change it, but that is a bummer...

I like the canal going through the historic part.

I do, too. I guess I don't understand what he's saying.

As of now, that's the only interesting part of the canal.

Yeah I didn't really understand what he was saying either.

nobody likes individuals benefiting off of public money however with many trips to san antonio people have to understand that you have to have existing building along the riverwalk to spark natural development...agree you have to start somewhere.......the property on the riverwalk has not been the best leases, however it started development........owners paid a lot more than hogan did for lower bt but that is not an issue.........that is a great business move for hogan...........so support the rebirth of downtown period....................if you dont have a hand in it help out because when i graduated college nobody in their right mind would live there, but look at it now..............

Well I think what we didn't understand was the part about the original plan for the canal.

well the original plan was for it to go straight through the uhaul lot all the way through lower bt.....that is great for a park........but mr brewer talked them into putting it down california....yes he did own buildings there but that helped everyone from main to reno............you cant spend that kind of money without exsisting structures.....yes people will always benefit but dont be a hater......lets be excited that our kids will be proud of thier dt unlike we did at our age (i was born in 76) and dt has never been a destination till maybe 97 or later except for obriens...............

Where did it go from there? Just an L shape and dead end at the track?

lets be excited that our kids will be proud of thier dt unlike we did at our age (i was born in 76) and dt has never been a destination till maybe 97 or later except for obriens...............

Let's hope they will be proud of it. Maybe lower bricktown will be overshadowed soon and then they will have something to be proud of. They're the ones that aren't going to give it a pass by comparing it to 30 years ago like so many want to do. That comparison will create no novelty for them. The area won't have that luxury and is why it will need to be rethought to hold any interest, imo.

well lower bt was a sell out to hogan at a dollar a foot however maps 3 will help that..........there is a plan to extend and loop the canal instead of an L..