And Mid...How do they get away with that? Is there an actual exception in law somewhere, or is it just overlooked?

I'd guess the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment would prohibit that sort of overreaching by Congress. That's not an issue, however, because the terms of Title VII itself specifically outline an exception for churches, religious corporations, religious schools, things of that nature.

I'm no employment law expert, I just googled the subject :)

Hobby Lobby is a spiritual corporation, but doesn't discriminate. Don't see the difference here.

Oh god... If you think someone personally attacked you, get over it. There is no BS here on OKCtalk, we all share opinions and we only agree to disagree. Thats the point. So get over it, post about anything you want, just don't assume we're all going to be right behind you. I'm sure if someone here was a satanist, they'd be against you being "spiritual".

Lots of people discriminate. One of the companies I work for, you're hired if you're pretty. If you're not.. then we lost the application. Then again, I don't think there is a law against it.

@Patrick, they're mentioning Hobby Lobby as a company who practices a spiritual business, but does not discriminate because they do. That's the point. I don't believe anyone said they do discriminate.

Hobby Lobby is a spiritual corporation, but no one can prove that they discriminate. Don't see the difference here.

fixed.

Well most of this makes sense, I appreciate the intelligent responses.

Circuitboard,

We value your questions and opinions. As a fellow Board-Poster-American, I understand your value as a person. You're good enough, smart enough and people like you.

I believe churches are an exception to the rule.

If I remember correctly Title 7 and 13 laws can be gotten around by large employers if they claim a "bona fide work requirement." So if you could say that your business required someone to be fit/in-shape because their job description would rely on moving heavy stuff around and it would be unreasonable for your workplace to make accommodations, then that's "bona fide." Same with church's having a need to employ people of their faith.

Hobby Lobby is a spiritual corporation, but doesn't discriminate. Don't see the difference here.

I was thinking the same thing

Wouldn't have a problem with it if they did anyway...Plenty of other lower wage jobs available to us that sleep in on Sundays

If I remember correctly Title 7 and 13 laws can be gotten around by large employers if they claim a "bona fide work requirement." So if you could say that your business required someone to be fit/in-shape because their job description would rely on moving heavy stuff around and it would be unreasonable for your workplace to make accommodations, then that's "bona fide." Same with church's having a need to employ people of their faith.

I did a bit of poking around on the EEOC website. It seems that the key here is whether or not the employer is able to make "reasonable" accommodations. As to whether something is reasonable or not, it seems we might have to go to the case law.

For example, if your company was searching for a receptionist for their front office, you would probably not be able to not hire someone because they were Muslim and had to wear the Hijab.

When the issue is whether the accommodation is "reasonable," you, at least in this case, have to hit the law books.

I don't think you should receive equal opportunity for employment if your imaginary friend tells you to wear **** on your head at all times.

Fine, but the EEOC disagrees with you.

Midtowner,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not illegal for a potential employer to even ask about a person's religious practices or church affiliation during the hiring process? Perhaps this only applies to organizations that are required to stick to EOE guidelines, but I thought that questions about religion are one of the interview no-no's, along with questions about one's marital status, children, sexual orientation, etc.

Obviously, this isn't the case in those instances where having a particular church affiliation is required (such as the hiring of clergy, etc.)

Midtowner,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not illegal for a potential employer to even ask about a person's religious practices or church affiliation during the hiring process? Perhaps this only applies to organizations that are required to stick to EOE guidelines, but I thought that questions about religion are one of the interview no-no's, along with questions about one's marital status, children, sexual orientation, etc.

Obviously, this isn't the case in those instances where having a particular church affiliation is required (such as the hiring of clergy, etc.)

That sounds right.

Like I said, I'm not inclined to have much of an opinion on a subject I don't know much about. I'm sure a quick search of the EEOC website will yield the desired information :)

Fine, but the EEOC disagrees with you.

The EEOC needs to stop pushing the rights of crazy people. If I had a make believe person telling me things I would go check myself into Mercy hospital ASAP. They have an Equal Opportunity to get help just like any of us would.

No one was born taking orders from make believe people, they had to be indoctrinated into that stupidity. What do we do when their make believe friend tells them to steal company documents or put a cherry bomb in the toilet?

Furthermore, if they want to act out on fantasy they should keep it private. I don't go into a job saying I am a level 75 monk from Windurst.

Now I want to go apply for a job at a church just to see if they ask me if I believe in God.




The EEOC needs to stop pushing the rights of crazy people. If I had a make believe person telling me things I would go check myself into Mercy hospital ASAP. They have an Equal Opportunity to get help just like any of us would.

No one was born taking orders from make believe people, they had to be indoctrinated into that stupidity. What do we do when their make believe friend tells them to steal company documents or put a cherry bomb in the toilet?

Furthermore, if they want to act out on fantasy they should keep it private. I don't go into a job saying I am a level 75 monk from Windurst.


Why not? I go into work telling people I'm a fire truck.

The EEOC needs to stop pushing the rights of crazy people. If I had a make believe person telling me things I would go check myself into Mercy hospital ASAP. They have an Equal Opportunity to get help just like any of us would.

No one was born taking orders from make believe people, they had to be indoctrinated into that stupidity. What do we do when their make believe friend tells them to steal company documents or put a cherry bomb in the toilet?

Furthermore, if they want to act out on fantasy they should keep it private. I don't go into a job saying I am a level 75 monk from Windurst.

So I'm stupid if I believe in a higher power?

The EEOC needs to stop pushing the rights of crazy people. If I had a make believe person telling me things I would go check myself into Mercy hospital ASAP. They have an Equal Opportunity to get help just like any of us would.

Interesting. I have a copy of the DSM-IV here... wanna bet that when I look inside, I won't find a pathology described as "being religious"?

I take it that you're a strongly anti-religious person who believes that religion is a delusion. You're entitled to that.

Of course, I could have misunderstood you. You could have been trying to cleverly describe a schizophrenic person.

Of course, you have to realize that not all women who wear the Hijab are schizophrenic or mentally ill. In fact, the vast majority are not. They are simply religious people who believe that certain attire is part of their religious views -- not unlike Hari Krishna, Buddhism, Orthodox Judaism or the Amish.

So I'm stupid if I believe in a higher power?

No.


I take it that you're a strongly anti-religious person who believes that religion is a delusion. You're entitled to that.

Of course, I could have misunderstood you. You could have been trying to cleverly describe a schizophrenic person.

Of course, you have to realize that not all women who wear the Hijab are schizophrenic or mentally ill.

An imaginary friend, that doesn't exist, told them that they are going to get raped by an angel if they do not cover their hair.

Religion is fine, but most people do not take it so far that they really believe that some superior being cares what they wear.

My Jewish friends do not wear kippahs and stuff at work because that would be retarded, for them to say that because God says so would be even more retarded, for them to apply for a job where wearing one would get in the way of doing said job and force the employer to accommodate would be the worst.

Imagine if a conservative christian lady applied to work at a strip club and refused to show her boobs because it was against her religion?

Dhimmi Watch: Philadelphia Tells Muslim Police to Trim Beards or Lose Jobs (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/008606.php)

Do your religious crap on your own time, dress for business during business time. No one is going to hell or getting raped. You shouldn't have a right to religious expression at work.

Toadrax, I checked with my make believe person and no offense is taken ... something about my make believe person believes in you, even if I have my own doubts of you.

After all, my sole knowledge of you is but words printed in a manner I can not even clutch in my grasp, appearing before me through a process I don't fully understand. Thus in truth I can't know with certainty whether you are real or merely a reasonably advanced bot with a sometimes quite interesting attitude subroutine.

But I've come to trust my make believe friend, to a level where my friend no longer seems make believe at all.

Perhaps in time I'll know you as well.

Best wishes.

Wow, suddenly I am so appreciative of where I work now.

An imaginary friend, that doesn't exist, told them that they are going to get raped by an angel if they do not cover their hair.

What religion would that be?


Religion is fine, but most people do not take it so far that they really believe that some superior being cares what they wear.

Some do. In fact, millions do.


My Jewish friends do not wear kippahs and stuff at work because that would be retarded, for them to say that because God says so would be even more retarded, for them to apply for a job where wearing one would get in the way of doing said job and force the employer to accommodate would be the worst.

Some people put their religion ahead of the possibility that their religious displays might result in illegal discrimination. Whether or not your friends wear their kippah has no bearing whatsoever on their job performance.

To be allowed to wear it would hardly be asking the employer to make an unreasonable accommodation.


Imagine if a conservative christian lady applied to work at a strip club and refused to show her boobs because it was against her religion?

If the religious beliefs stand in the way of actually doing the job, that is not a reasonable accommodation. Really. Read the EEOC stuff. Stop making an ass of yourself.


Do your religious crap on your own time, dress for business during business time. No one is going to hell or getting raped. You shouldn't have a right to religious expression at work.

That's your opinion. The EEOC does not agree with you. Guess which opinion employers are more likely to follow.

So I'm stupid if I believe in a higher power?

I'm stupid too apparently.

So are we not supposed to allow people to celebrate religious holidays, either? Sorry, that just occurred to me.

That's your opinion. The EEOC does not agree with you. Guess which opinion employers are more likely to follow.

Neither. Quite a few places would just silently discriminate and not say anything. I doubt any of those nuts could compete in a technical field anyway, so my industry is safe.


So are we not supposed to allow people to celebrate religious holidays, either? Sorry, that just occurred to me.

Most places allow you to schedule a few days off from work now and them, schedule them for when you need them.

Also I think none of these laws apply if you have less than 15 employees in your company. So basically small companies can abuse the crap out of their employees.

We let me register and abuse away.

So, Toadrax--if they took away Christmas as an automatic holiday for many companies, how would you feel?

I just read about a case where two members of Gideons International were arrested outside a school for handing out Bibles because they were in a school safety zone. I think it was in Florida. I read a blurb about a U S District Court ruling in the case that I think happened just a few days ago. I remember being surprised the ruling had nothing to do with religion but because the law being offended was vague.

So, Toadrax--if they took away Christmas as an automatic holiday for many companies, how would you feel?

Some places do not have a automatic holiday for Christmas.. it isn't a problem. I worked last Christmas but took more time off to go out of town on news years.

If you want to take time off for that holiday, you simply schedule it. It works out better for everyone. I would rather have more time off for the new years celebrations than Christmas, some people would rather have more time off for Hanukkah than new years. :P

=I doubt any of those nuts could compete in a technical field anyway, so my industry is safe.

Thanks for answering my above question.

Your question was stupid.

You might as well ask, "Do people who eat food like minimarts?"

I have an answer for you anyway.

Almost everyone believes in a "higher power", only idiots think it cares what they wear to work.

Your question was stupid.

You might as well ask, "Do people who eat food like minimarts?"

I have an answer for you anyway.

Almost everyone believes in a "higher power", only idiots think it cares what they wear to work.

At this point, I'm going to have to call a spade a spade.

In this case, a spade is a troll.

What religion do you subscribe to, btw?

I'm protestant(baptist)..

I absolutely LOVE shellfish and don't have a problem with gay people. If I did "because God says so" I would be an idiot.

Islam is the same way, the Koran doesn't even tell women to cover themselves.

If you disagree with my point Midtower, you would be saying that everyone that believes in a "higher power" must be irrational about it. Who is the troll?

I'm protestant(baptist)..

I absolutely LOVE shellfish and don't have a problem with gay people. If I did "because God says so" I would be an idiot.

Islam is the same way, the Koran doesn't even tell women to cover themselves.

If you disagree with my point Midtower, you would be saying that everyone that believes in a "higher power" must be irrational about it. Who is the troll?

Shia Islam is a lot like Catholicism. They look outside of their holy book for church dogma.

As for believing in a higher power, it is absolutely irrational. That's why they call it "faith."

No. Islam only asks men and women to be modest.

One of my best friends is a Shia's from Iran and she just told me that one of their core beliefs is that Muhammad was the last and final messenger from God. Anything else that they believe is cultural not religious.

No. Islam only asks men and women to be modest.

One of my best friends is a Shia's from Iran and she just told me that one of their core beliefs is that Muhammad was the last and final messenger from God. Anything else that they believe is cultural not religious.

Thinking that one person can speak for Islam in general is narrow-minded.

Muhammad speaks for Islam.

Women didn't even start veiling themselves until generations after Muhammad died..

You do not know anything about Muslims apparently.

Let me flip this around... Imagine if Craig Groeschel got up and said that all the members of lifechurch needed to go to work in their pajamas to prove that they loved God. We could call up James Dodson and find some way to twist a passage in the Bible to support that premise.

Would it be required for an employer to allow people to run around in pjs due to religious reasons?

i don't know, toadrax... throwing around the word shia as a demonym shows to me that you apparently know very little about the muslim faith.

furthermore, your repeated theme of "if you don't think like me, you're obviously an idiot" reeks of trollish, flamebait behavior. we ban trolls around here. just sayin'. -M

Back to the original topic...

If Incredible Pizza wants to work under these assumptions (taken from the IPC website)

Family Values

* To always speak positively and encourage each other with mutual respect.
* To be prompt, appropriately dressed and practice good personal hygiene.
* To be loyal, honest, trustworthy and friendly.
* To always work safely, watching out for others as well as ourselves.
* To always work as a team, serving each other and helping wherever needed.
* To approach change with excitement and a teachable spirit, knowing that we are constantly improving everything we do.

Then I don't think this is a terrible organization.

I mean, gah, working as a team? Trying to constantly improve oneself? Being friendly? What TERRIBLE principles.

"if you don't think like me, you're obviously an idiot"

The majority of people do not take their religion or culture with them to work at all, because they are not idiots. Most people dress professionally or at least appropriately.

France has outlawed the display of all religious displays in their schools (including headscarves) and employers are free to do the same.

I am only calling a small percentage of people idiots. There are other benefits to banning such things.

The Veil Controversy (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/999jpabw.asp)


But what Islamists use most is intimidation. A survey conducted in France in May 2003 found that 77 percent of girls wearing the hijab said they did so because of physical threats from Islamist groups. A series in the newspaper Libération in 2003 documented how Muslim women and girls in France who refuse to wear the hijab are insulted, rejected, and often physically threatened by Muslim males. One of the teenage girls interviewed said, "Every day, bearded men come to me and advise me strongly on wearing the veil. It is a war. For now, there are no dead, but there are looks and words that do kill."

If you don't agree with someone's religious views or hiring practices then don't work there. Why would you want to? There are many many many other places to work. ??? Why would you waste time worrying about it??? There are many many many other things that do concern you personally, I am sure, that you could worry about.

My only problem with a lot of places hiring processes is that...Well...They won't hire me.

I'm just going to start sending out my resume as simply "I AM BILL BRASKY" in 72 point.

First, if it doesn't matter what you wear to work - then why is it a big deal that they want to wear articles that represent their religion? Furthermore - it is an assumed decision of society to decide what exactly is deamed 'business attire'. Who says it's professional for a woman to wear a skirt and pantyhose? I think that should be listed in the book of tortures. I hate those things. If you can look at it as NOT being a big deal to wear such things, then why is it such a big deal TO wear them?

Second - I WISH Craig would tell us to go to work in our pajamas! I would love that. Because I am so brainwashed by him that I do every thing he tells me to do. I no longer have a mind of my own. I wonder what he wants me to eat for lunch today? Maybe Incredible Pizza!

You're perceptive.

To tell you the truth, I really don't see how whether you are 'spiritual' or not is even relevant to your inquiry. Perhaps you feel it's necessary to be spiritual in order to not appear to be some sort of agnostic/atheist when you're criticizing the spirituality of others? I don't really care.

It was just unnecessary to preface your statement with a declaration that you are spiritual.

Now... unless you're a stockholder in Incredible Pizza, which I doubt, why the concern as to whether they might have discriminatory hiring practices? Are you a vigilante justice-bringer for Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964?

Do you make it your business to ferret out and halt any potentially illegal religious discrimination practices in the workplace?

No need to be a jerk. You don't own the board, no matter how many posts you have. If you're tired of deigning to give your non-licensed legal opinion on matters, then just stop. Your derision, snobbery and smartassery give real attorneys a bad name. Follow Doug's lead if you want to see how to help others understand the law without being a raging prick.

No need to be a jerk. You don't own the board, no matter how many posts you have. If you're tired of deigning to give your non-licensed legal opinion on matters, then just stop. Your derision, snobbery and smartassery give real attorneys a bad name. Follow Doug's lead if you want to see how to help others understand the law without being a raging prick.

An opinion isn't the same thing as advice.

You don't have to be licensed to have or express an opinion. I'm careful about not crossing the line -- if this fella thinks he has been discriminated against, a message board is a dumb place to be looking for advice as to whether he has a claim. Sometimes, being blunt is the best way to get your point across.

He asks his question in the form of a question regarding his "concern" about Incredible Pizza's policies. I don't think you could possibly think I was giving advice to Incredible Pizza, so I'm not sure who or what you think I'm giving advice to???

Cant we just agree that it was a misworded and irrelevant question... thats all... nothing more, nothing less :)

Cant we just agree that it was a misworded and irrelevant question... thats all... nothing more, nothing less :)

We can, unless Midtowner might be trying to make the point that the OP's expressed desire for legal enlightenment might be considered disingenuous given his "I'm spiritual" disclaimer....building a strawman argument to base a possible subsequent bashing of an organization that dared to express a desire to employ Godly principles in their operation....now I would never dare to presume to speak for Midtowner, as he is more than capable of speaking for himself :).

Another poster on this thread summed it up perfectly: Any employer that constructs a given criteria to be a "bona fide occupational requirement" can eliminate anyone they want - almost. I read about a case several years ago were a woman was denied employment as a member of a fire department because she did not meet height requirements. The city, I thought, made a perfectly rational and sensible defense of their position, citing various studies about safety and the types of equipment used and the physical attributes of individuals being trained to use them. The city lost. So "bona fide" isn't a slam dunk.

geeeeee wizzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....mention God anywhere on this forum and all hell breaks loose!!

We can, unless Midtowner might be trying to make the point that the OP's expressed desire for legal enlightenment might be considered disingenuous given his "I'm spiritual" disclaimer....building a strawman argument to base a possible subsequent bashing of an organization that dared to express a desire to employ Godly principles in their operation....now I would never dare to presume to speak for Midtowner, as he is more than capable of speaking for himself :).

Midtowner smelled b--- s--- from a mile away when he read that question.

Also, apparently, Midtowner likes to speak about himself in the third person.

(Bob Dole).

lol Mid...

Brings back memories (not only of that election)...In Marine Corps boot camp, we had to refer to ourselves (and the Drill Instructors) in 3rd person the whole time.

The worst thing about referring to oneself in the third person is that it conjures up (for me) memories of Bob Dole.

Memories of Bob Dole make me think about Viagra.

-- and that is most unfortunate.

the incredible pizza is no more, they are taken off the web site for okc location, i called and new owner has taken over and the name will change soon, along with all incredible pizza logos and stuff.. SAD NEWS

Great news for me personally as that means I don't have to take my kids to any more birthday parties at that god awful place.

My graduating classmates and I just went to Incredible Pizza last week for a Senior FunDay. What a shame. I love that place.

The pizza sucked worse than Cici's and the games were lame and over-priced.

I'm not shedding a tear.

Good, that place sucks!

They were always packed, kind of surprised. I go to church next door and it's always slammed, I wondered though as it wasn't packed these last two weeks. I agree with the other posters, it wasn't that special. Too bad we can't get a Sega Gameworks or something.

they had a "capture audience" with a load of church folks, who didnt want to fight lines and where the kids would eat more readily.
been there once and it was lousy.
those "family value games" tend to be lame and overpriced.
I never take a package deal on vacations, unless I can find it as a real family value.

I would like for you to know that the rumors that Incredible Pizza is closing are not true. Quote from the store... "we are still in business and will be changing our name soon. We will continue to provide Great service, and Fun Atmosphere and familiar faces you have come to enjoy." Meaning they will still be open and will still be the same as before, they are just haveing a new name and new logos.

Guys, just fyi - I'm pretty sure ipcrocks is with the store since I contacted them 20 minutes ago and told them about this thread. Remember, sometimes store and restaurant employees are not allowed to go out and speak beyond what they've been told. I've left a message with the local operator and at the national office - but this statement is legit. Bottom line - they say it's not closing. Hopefully they'll call me back and explain more for a short story because these rumors spread quickly and can only hurt them.