I believe that Journal Record article is inaccurate on several fronts.

Much of the assistance mentioned is for improving and expanding the garage, which is being done in association with COPTA -- that was going to happen anyway.

I believe the only real assistance being sought by OPUBCO is the $1.5 million from the Devon TIF. And even though the primary aspect of that TIF was the Project 180 stuff, there was another chunk of money set aside specifically to move corporate HQ's downtown. OPUBCO and the massive investment needed to turn the CC into a modern newsroom seem to fit those parameters and I bet this will easily win approval.


Back to the parking garage, OPUBCO won't be the only tenant in the remodeled Center Center. I'm hearing a branch of the YMCA may be included, probably some additional smaller office tenants and the Mahogany rumor for the SW corner is starting to firm up.

So, this isn't just about OPUBCO.


The more I find out about this, the more I think it's going to be great for OKC. OPUBCO can bring life to that space in a way no other office tenant could as they employ hundreds who are very tuned in and interested in the community. They also work long, unusual hours including weekends... Imagine what that will mean for downtown restaurants and street activity in general.

... OPUBCO can bring life to that space in a way no other office tenant could as they employ hundreds who are very tuned in and interested in the community. They also work long, unusual hours including weekends... Imagine what that will mean for downtown restaurants and street activity in general.

Roving gangs of OPUBCO employees terrorizing the neighborhood?
:wink:

wearing matching ties instead of doo rags and flashing digi recorders instead of hand signs
:)

You just have know the secret sign and the OPUBCO Boys will leave you alone.

buwunI_4DZg

When does "corporate welfare" actually become "welfare"? I know that term is used as a parallel to the entitlement program "welfare", but if the result is that supporting OPUBCOs move downtown results in a net gain to the city it isn't welfare, it is a money making move for the City.

If I give $5 to some person, and they give me nothing back except a request next week for $5 more - that is welfare.
But if I give $5 to a company and next week they give me back $6 - that ISN'T welfare. That is smart money management and for the residents, that is $1 less in taxes that will need to be paid.

This...

I believe that Journal Record article is inaccurate on several fronts.

Much of the assistance mentioned is for improving and expanding the garage, which is being done in association with COPTA -- that was going to happen anyway.

I believe the only real assistance being sought by OPUBCO is the $1.5 million from the Devon TIF. And even though the primary aspect of that TIF was the Project 180 stuff, there was another chunk of money set aside specifically to move corporate HQ's downtown. OPUBCO and the massive investment needed to turn the CC into a modern newsroom seem to fit those parameters and I bet this will easily win approval.


Back to the parking garage, OPUBCO won't be the only tenant in the remodeled Center Center. I'm hearing a branch of the YMCA may be included, probably some additional smaller office tenants and the Mahogany rumor for the SW corner is starting to firm up.

So, this isn't just about OPUBCO.


The more I find out about this, the more I think it's going to be great for OKC. OPUBCO can bring life to that space in a way no other office tenant could as they employ hundreds who are very tuned in and interested in the community. They also work long, unusual hours including weekends... Imagine what that will mean for downtown restaurants and street activity in general.

very good recap ... i agree

Roving gangs of OPUBCO employees terrorizing the neighborhood?
:wink:

Or roving gangs of OPUBCO employees eating $100+ steak dinners at Mahogany every day? That seems unlikely as well. I'd much rather see a La Madelines or Panera fit that space that will be used more than a premium Steakhouse only a few nights a week.

I believe that Journal Record article is inaccurate on several fronts.

Much of the assistance mentioned is for improving and expanding the garage, which is being done in association with COPTA -- that was going to happen anyway.

I believe the only real assistance being sought by OPUBCO is the $1.5 million from the Devon TIF. And even though the primary aspect of that TIF was the Project 180 stuff, there was another chunk of money set aside specifically to move corporate HQ's downtown. OPUBCO and the massive investment needed to turn the CC into a modern newsroom seem to fit those parameters and I bet this will easily win approval.


Back to the parking garage, OPUBCO won't be the only tenant in the remodeled Center Center. I'm hearing a branch of the YMCA may be included, probably some additional smaller office tenants and the Mahogany rumor for the SW corner is starting to firm up.

So, this isn't just about OPUBCO.


The more I find out about this, the more I think it's going to be great for OKC. OPUBCO can bring life to that space in a way no other office tenant could as they employ hundreds who are very tuned in and interested in the community. They also work long, unusual hours including weekends... Imagine what that will mean for downtown restaurants and street activity in general.

As was pointed out in the article, the COTPA money only came about because of the OPUBCO development. Would it have happened anyway? Possibly. Was it happening now? No.

Other than the Hurst/H3-Advisors identification failure, I'm not seeing anything "inaccurate" in this article, Pete, and your notes above don't clarify anything contradictory. It's pretty clearly laid out what OPUBCO wanted versus what the *developers* were asking for versus why COTPA is stepping in. OPUBCO is, however, the common catalyst here, as I'm reading it.

As was pointed out in the article, the COTPA money only came about because of the OPUBCO development. Would it have happened anyway? Possibly. Was it happening now? No.

Other than the Hurst/H3-Advisors identification failure, I'm not seeing anything "inaccurate" in this article, Pete, and your notes above don't clarify anything contradictory. It's pretty clearly laid out what OPUBCO wanted versus what the *developers* were asking for versus why COTPA is stepping in. OPUBCO is, however, the common catalyst here, as I'm reading it.

the copta money was coming either way .. this building was going to be redeveloped with or without OPUBCO OPUBCO is asking for the 1.5 mil not the developer per devon IC and TIF 2 documentation ...

also misidentifying Hurst is a huge deal .. SVN is a national real estate advisors company .. the local SVN Tim strange and assoc .. work for and with local developers and building owners .. H3 is an asset mgmt company that invest their clients money into all types of things including buildings

SVN didn't become "interested" in the property .. H3 bought it and hired SVN Tim strange to market the property ..and advise them H3 bought this building a while ago and they would have developed it with or with out OPUBCO like they have with other buildings in their portfolio

I am surprised that there is enough demand downtown that 3 YMCAs could be supported within a mile radius.

The CC facility would just be a satellite.

But think about how many new employees have come to downtown in the years since the main YMCA was built.

the copta money was coming either way .. this building was going to be redeveloped with or without OPUBCO OPUBCO is asking for the 1.5 mil not the developer per devon IC and TIF 2 documentation ...

also misidentifying Hurst is a huge deal .. SVN is a national real estate advisors company .. the local SVN Tim strange and assoc .. work for and with local developers and building owners .. H3 is an asset mgmt company that invest their clients money into all types of things including buildings

SVN didn't become "interested" in the property .. H3 bought it and hired SVN Tim strange to market the property ..and advise them H3 bought this building a while ago and they would have developed it with or with out OPUBCO like they have with other buildings in their portfolio

I'm sorry, but WHEN exactly was COTPA going to work on that garage?
And as for developing that property with or without OPUBCO: Did you fail to notice that the property was purchased at the same time the newspaper sold the tower? Or is your world ruled by coincidental timing?

I get the feeling that you guys drank the boosterism-flavored Kool-Aid purchased with Oklahoman newspaper coupons.

The CC facility would just be a satellite.

But think about how many new employees have come to downtown in the years since the main YMCA was built.

Which is packed all the time, from what I hear.

When does "corporate welfare" actually become "welfare"? I know that term is used as a parallel to the entitlement program "welfare", but if the result is that supporting OPUBCOs move downtown results in a net gain to the city it isn't welfare, it is a money making move for the City.

If I give $5 to some person, and they give me nothing back except a request next week for $5 more - that is welfare.
But if I give $5 to a company and next week they give me back $6 - that ISN'T welfare. That is smart money management and for the residents, that is $1 less in taxes that will need to be paid.

How is it a net gain for the city? They are just moving from on area of OKC to another. Should OKC be giving money to companies already here just to make a flashy move downtown?

I'm sorry, but WHEN exactly was COTPA going to work on that garage?
And as for developing that property with or without OPUBCO: Did you fail to notice that the property was purchased at the same time the newspaper sold the tower? Or is your world ruled by coincidental timing?

I get the feeling that you guys drank the boosterism-flavored Kool-Aid purchased with Oklahoman newspaper coupons.

actually the purchases were 2 1/2 months apart ..

actually the purchases were 2 1/2 months apart ..

:rolleyes:

I get the feeling that you guys drank the boosterism-flavored Kool-Aid purchased with Oklahoman newspaper coupons.

You need to read more of the site. :)

Your perspective is appreciated and there is always plenty of disagreement here, so please try not to take anything too personally.


Regarding the parking, there was a study done over a year ago that demonstrated the huge need in the central business district. I believe the discussions about adding onto the Century Center garage started well before it was sold to the new owners. It also contributed to the decision to not try and renovate the Cox Center for a new and expanded convention center.

Should OKC be giving money to companies already here just to make a flashy move downtown?

I think that's pretty much the point of MAPS. To revitalize the downtown area by luring new and existing businesses into the downtown core.

How is it a net gain for the city? They are just moving from on area of OKC to another. Should OKC be giving money to companies already here just to make a flashy move downtown?

Because it is cheaper for the city to provide services in higher densities. Now granted, the benefit of OPUBCO moving downtown is off-set by AF moving out to back fill the space but what can you do - make a law against companies moving into low density areas? From a resource utilization point of view it isn't even close. Look how many acres of land OPUBCO needed to generate taxable revenue vs how many acres it takes downtown. There are huge economies of scale in density.

I think it's a valid point to question whether tax dollars should go towards relocating an existing OKC business to downtown. Especially one like OPUBCO who just made a ton of money selling their properties and is absolutely zero threat to move elsewhere.

Of course on the plus side, they bring something unique and energetic to downtown and seem to be a great fit for the high-visibility of this property. What they propose will really appeal to those who are casual downtown visitors; there for Thunder games or to see the adjacent Myriad Gardens. The CC is also a gateway between these areas and the core of the CBD, which is one of the reasons that ugly, empty hole has been eating away at our downtown vibe.


But remember, TIF dollars are just taxes diverted from things like education and police protection. So, the use of those funds should fall under heavy scrutiny.

Funny how spending $1.5 million to increase density raises flags but spending millions more to fund sprawl doesn't bat an eyelash. Maintaining Britton Road also diverts tax dollars from things like education and police protection while at the same time making things like education and police protection cost more.

I think that's pretty much the point of MAPS. To revitalize the downtown area by luring new and existing businesses into the downtown core.
We voted on MAPS, so i cant complain. But let MAPS money and improvements be the motivator for company relocations, not other monies.


Because it is cheaper for the city to provide services in higher densities. Now granted, the benefit of OPUBCO moving downtown is off-set by AF moving out to back fill the space but what can you do - make a law against companies moving into low density areas? From a resource utilization point of view it isn't even close. Look how many acres of land OPUBCO needed to generate taxable revenue vs how many acres it takes downtown. There are huge economies of scale in density.

OPBUCO moving from 235 to downtown does nothing to make city services cheaper. There would be a much better argument if this was an out of state company but this is just one moving 7 miles down the road. Im not going to be too upset about it but I think the extra funding is unnecessary.

Maybe it irks me because of this:
“It is wrong for public funds to be used to support corporate welfare, especially for a newspaper whose editorial policies seem to constantly object to the level of taxation in Oklahoma?" K.C. Moon

Whatever the case with the tif money, this is great for downtown. The century center has been an eyesore and a hole in downtown for 20 years. I think anything that helps improve that should be welcomed. I pay taxes in OKC and I support anything that improves downtown.

Man, worked a bridal show inside of the Sheraton Century Ballroom yesterday and it opens up to the Century Center. WOW, time machines do exist. Walk through that door and you'll clearly be shot to that point in time. Talk about ugly. I was going to say the place was definitely a hole but seems PhiAlpha has already done so, lol.

Man, worked a bridal show inside of the Sheraton Century Ballroom yesterday and it opens up to the Century Center. WOW, time machines do exist. Walk through that door and you'll clearly be shot to that point in time. Talk about ugly. I was going to say the place was definitely a hole but seems PhiAlpha has already done so, lol.

I walk through it twice a day to park in basement. I took a picture on January 30 of a styrofoam cup next to a spoon, sitting next to one of the windows by the staircase on first floor. It was still there yesterday. No one cleans in there - it's so nasty even the bums won't hide out in there.

Lately, a bunch of cheap looking furniture has been piled in center and is slowly being hauled out by day laborers. Maybe hotel is remodeling? Or just clearing excess out so the Century Center building will be empty?

Bring on the roving gangs of pocket-protected OPUBCO employees! It'd be nice to have to company!

Yes, the Sheraton is being remodeled as we speak.

I'm in agreement that the questions about the public funds is a valid concern. But it's not something I am concerned with because it appears the public funds are about to result in a much more impressive development on this block now that OPUBCO is involved.

I'll be curious to see how many floors this will go.

per cathy OConner the OPUBCO 1.5 is a first of its kind request for TIF 8 funds ... under "other economic development" 10 years occupancy guarantee reduction of 10% a year if they leave early ... the money will go to the video board and furntiure/computers will generate 1.3 in sales tax revenue .. plus indirect revenue .. as an aside she sounded a little uncomfortable about this part in the presentation

Century Center request for 2.1 TIF funds and for a 800k low interest loan .. for their 27 mil renovation project

also copta got 1mil use to renovate parts of the sante fe and CC garages .. (including their portion of the new facade of the CC)

all 3 were approved

I'll be curious to see how many floors this will go.

I have no idea if the foundation could support an upward expansion, but it would be very cool to see this building rise quite a bit higher.

I have no idea if the foundation could support an upward expansion, but it would be very cool to see this building rise quite a bit higher.

2 more stories of parking ..

All this talk about OPUBCO asking for tax money to help with the relocation downtown, does anyone know if/how much they received when they built their Tower and moved out of downtown???

They have submitted an application to the Downtown Design Review Committee, so we should be able to see much more detailed plans very soon.

Also good to see this moving forward.

All this talk about OPUBCO asking for tax money to help with the relocation downtown, does anyone know if/how much they received when they built their Tower and moved out of downtown???

Don't know about receiving money, but I do know that they GAVE AWAY their old building to the Oklahoma Medical Research Foundation. And possibly the east property to the YMCA ??? Pretty nice gesture don't you think ?

OMRF? You mean the building at 4th and Broadway, the historic headquarters building of The Oklahoman? That was given to the YMCA of Central Oklahoma, as was the land under the old printing facility, now home to the downtown branch Y and the child development center. OPUBCO and the Gaylord family also provided considerable funding to renovate the historic building and to build the gym and the daycare. All of it was done with the understanding that the old headquarters building would house nonprofits in Class A comparable space for below market rate. Not sure where OMRF comes in. Do you mean a building in another location?

OMRF? You mean the building at 4th and Broadway, the historic headquarters building of The Oklahoman? That was given to the YMCA of Central Oklahoma, as was the land under the old printing facility, now home to the downtown branch Y and the child development center. OPUBCO and the Gaylord family also provided considerable funding to renovate the historic building and to build the gym and the daycare. All of it was done with the understanding that the old headquarters building would house nonprofits in Class A comparable space for below market rate. Not sure where OMRF comes in. Do you mean a building in another location?

Yes, OMRF, but it was a forgiving lease IIRC. So I must have it only half correct, it's been over 30 years, the memory is fuzzy.. here's the story -

Medical Foundation Leases Downtown OPUBCO Site | News OK (http://newsok.com/medical-foundation-leases-downtown-opubco-site/article/2406834)

Yeah, they must have vacated (perhaps after the bombing, which damaged the building). The whole complex was donated to the Y in 1996. Here is that story:

OPUBCO Donates Property To Rebuild Downtown YMCA | News OK (http://newsok.com/opubco-donates-property-to-rebuild-downtown-ymca/article/2536143)

Looks like this will begin to ramp up soon.

Applied for a construction permit today to begin bracing the building for the added weight of the building's vertical expansion.

Hearing that Mahogany Steakhouse is still on track for taking the southwest corner of this project.


Looks like everything is moving forward with this project in general... Will make a massive difference in that critical downtown intersection.

I really think Mahogany is the wrong tenant, as it will only be a few nights a week. I'd rather see a cafe or a La Madeline's or Panera Bread type concept that would get much more use and double as a wi-fi hotspot for remote entrepreneurs.

I suspect this Mahogany will be somewhat different than the rest, if for no other reason they will want to capture the significant lunch opportunities at this site.

Will be interesting to see their strategy.

It will only be used by a select crowd, I wish it was more a business casual type place where it could serve multiple functions breakfast through post-dinner.

I bet they'll offer some great lunch specials, good happy hour options (ala Red) and perhaps some late-night deals as well.

Very different location for them and thus I'm sure they will adapt. Hal & Co. are pretty darn astute.

Normally Mickey Mantle's Steakhouse's biggest nights are weeknights. Heavily based on out-of-town business people working off of expense accounts. The same will likely hold true for this place.

I really think Mahogany is the wrong tenant, as it will only be a few nights a week. I'd rather see a cafe or a La Madeline's or Panera Bread type concept that would get much more use and double as a wi-fi hotspot for remote entrepreneurs.

Agree completely. How many more steakhouses are needed downtown?

Sincerely doubt it will be the last one added.

It adds nothing unique to downtown, or something lacking is our point.

Sincerely doubt it will be the last one added.

This

It adds nothing unique to downtown, or something lacking is our point.
I understand. Of course that could be said of many of the concepts introduced in downtown over the past few years or on the drawing board today. Personally, I think there is still room in this segment, as steakhouses are skewed to business, travel, and special events, all of which makes downtown the most sensible location for them, IMO. But no question they are not really going to excite locavores or foodies.

It's not my favorite place for another Steakhouse (would prefer a Fogo de Chao type concept, and put the Mahogany in C2S when it takes off, or put one in MidTown), but make no mistake...That Mahogany is going to do very well.

It will also be a beautiful restaurant, as they all are, and that's very important given the high visibility of that corner.

I really think Mahogany is the wrong tenant, as it will only be a few nights a week. I'd rather see a cafe or a La Madeline's or Panera Bread type concept that would get much more use and double as a wi-fi hotspot for remote entrepreneurs.

I think so too. This space has the potential to be the living room of the city, and to make it another special-event, starchy steakhouse is a huge miscalculation. Just because more can afford a place doesn't mean it'll look trashy. My vision for this space would have been an upscale diner like this one in DC: New and Exciting | Menu | The Diner (http://www.dinerdc.com/index.php/section/category/menu/)

I think so too. This space has the potential to be the living room of the city, and to make it another special-event, starchy steakhouse is a huge miscalculation. Just because more can afford a place doesn't mean it'll look trashy. My vision for this space would have been an upscale diner like this one in DC: New and Exciting | Menu | The Diner (http://www.dinerdc.com/index.php/section/category/menu/)
Again, I really doubt in any way that this is a "huge miscalculation." The place is likely instead to be a huge success. Is it what you or others might want to see? Obviously not, based on your comments. Personally I too would be excited about a place like you suggest; probably more so than I am about Mahogany. But the place is going to bank; mark it down. Not sure how that qualifies as ANY type of miscalculation, from a business standpoint. Sometimes the hyperbole here gets a little thick.

A lot of restaurateurs here have a mindless herd mentality. Everything is always meat and potatoes. I realize they're in business to make a profit but there are very few inventive concepts -- particularly from restaurant groups like Hal Smith.

People in this city are hungry for more -- and for more inventive culinary options.

In a five block radius we have three prime steakhouses now. Additionally, restaurants like Flint, Vast and others feature, you guessed it, steak on their menus.

It's ridiculous.

We are really not that close, especially considering the life span of restaurants, to try and make this corner restaurant something other than some type of "special-event" place. Being a more special event type place gives activity to this restaurant after 5PM. If it was just another Cafe 7/La Madeline type place, it would be closed at 3PM.

However, I also don't know if I see an Upscale Steakhouse opening for lunch. Would love to be proven wrong, but if I were a betting man, I'd put money on a 4 - 5 PM opening.

On another note...I think the ambiance of Mahogany suits this corner to absolute perfection. I just wish it was something more inventive than a steakhouse.

A lot of restaurateurs here have a mindless herd mentality. Everything is always meat and potatoes. I realize they're in business to make a profit but there are very few inventive concepts -- particularly from restaurant groups like Hal Smith.

People in this city are hungry for more -- and for more inventive culinary options.

In a five block radius we have three prime steakhouses now. Additionally, restaurants like Flint, Vast and others feature, you guessed it, steak on their menus.
It's ridiculous.

They have other options on their menus, you're not required to order steak.

Additionally, restaurants like Flint, Vast and others feature, you guessed it, steak on their menus.
It's ridiculous.

They have other options on their menus, you're not required to order steak.
I didn't get a harumph from that guy!

I didn't get a harumph from that guy!

Got to do with where choo choo go.

The is a perfect corner for a McCormick and Schmick's. Or, their more casual version, M&S Grille. Right product. Right price. Right ambiance.

They have other options on their menus, you're not required to order steak.

While he has a point, it's beyond common for people to make an argument that proves their point more than disproves it, so for him to word it & argue it the way he did is to be expected.

Not trying to make either of you look foolish or anything like that, just my $0.02 is all.