It will be difficult for legit "ethnic" food to come to downtown if leases are super expensive. But real question: When will street vending come to downtown? Need to be able to walk down the street and grab a kebab or some tacos. And street musicians…definitely need some street musicians.
I would love to see street vending become more commonplace downtown. Occasionally there are street musicians, particularly when the weather is nice.

But the mimes can certainly stay away, PluPan.

We have a decent rotation of food trucks downtown, and I think that's kind of the "new" street vending. Earlier this week, Papa Dio's had a cart on 6th street, but because we don't have the infrastructure to support street carts, their van was in the parking space next to the cart. A food truck would have been more efficient. For an interesting read on a NYC hot dog cart, check out: Dog Days | Narratively | Human stories, boldly told. (http://narrative.ly/stories/dog-days/) . Also, if you're not reading narrative.ly, you should be.

Regarding HSRG's plans for Century Center, I'm a little disappointed, but only because it will likely undo all the workouts I have planned for the new Y location. I work in Chase, and I'm really looking forward to walking across the street after work, in the middle of a slower afternoon, instead of driving to the Midtown location on my way home.

For all of you that gripe about the patio thing, if patios are so awesome in Oklahoma, why is it all of the patio areas on any ground/upper desk restaurant on the canal are mostly empty? And for that matter, places like The Mantle (off the canal) don't exactly have people lining up at the door to sit outside, and theirs is more protected than most. At least Bourbon Street has cover, there's not direct sun, there's landscaping, some coolness off the water...it's really the best patio on the canal. It also happens to be at the end where you dont have to really worry about walk-throughs. Hanging out for a short period for a cup of coffee in a little "cafe" type patio is very different from sitting for an hour for your meal. I'm not persuading the argument in favor or against patios, but i'm just saying that it's not something that a lot of people in OKC seem to go for. San Antonio's canal was constructed VERY differently, but they had the benefit of being on the actual river. It makes a BIIIIIIG difference in how the whole thing works. Not to mention that they weren't trying to squeeze it in the space of a 2 land street (well 2 plus parking). There's only so much room to do something here, including the Century. For the upscale steakhouse crowd, i think that valet service is going to be much more valuable than patio space. Besides the fact that they will make money off of it. And with patio, you do have the chance of your stuff being stolen, damaged by our weather, or whatever.

I do find it funny in Oklahoma how the liquor thing makes it so litigious. In New Orleans (granted its an extreme) you can get a plastic "To-Go" cup for your liquor at almost any restaurant in the quarter. In fact i have a few of them myself.

I was downtown during lunchtime this week and ate across from Century. I have to say, i really thought they would be further along than this. The demolition work seems to be taking a long time for the amount of work there is. Demo work is also the fast part on a project, so if they're moving this slow now, i hope they dont move even slower on the actual construction. It almost feels like it would have been faster to knock the thing down and start over!

That's simply not true. The patios on the canal are PACKED on evenings and especially weekends and event nights. A few of them are also busy at lunch times during weekdays, including Bourbon Street, Chelino's (street level canal patio), Zio's, and KD's on weekends. There are also far more active patios on the canal than some people choose to believe. I detailed this in another thread, but here are the patios on the canal, all of which get respectable business:


Biting Sow/Mojo's
Zio's
Chelino's
Bourbon Street
Yucatan Taco Stand
Captain Norm's Dockside Bar
Pinot's Palette
Put a Cork in it Winery
Knuck's (railing)
Starbuck's
Texadelphia (not fronting canal, but building does)
Bolero
In The Raw
Red Pin
Sonic (plaza above)
Fuzzy's
Earl's Rib Palace
KD's Southern Cuisine


Additionally, House of Bedlam has a pretty good sized patio/outdoor plan. If you think these patios are "empty" I suggest you come down tonight or Saturday night and see for yourself how wrong that impression is. In scorching weather of course they are empty during the heat of the day, but come fall they will be busy at lunch once again. I would also challenge you to check out the upstairs patio at Nonna's, and the patio at Skinny Slim's.

Seriously though - despite the fact that it today has the largest number of outdoor seats as a district and probably qualifies as the most high-volume outdoor venue, Bricktown and the canal have historically not been great examples of good outdoor. For years it was horribly underutilized. The canal itself famously languished for years because property owners were content to wait for tenants to take large floorplates or whole buildings, which never happened. Other districts didn't wait once they got going, and if you think outdoor doesn't work well in OKC I would guess that you have never been to any of the following places in the central city on a nice (or even not-so-nice) evening:


Red Prime
Peleton
Iguana
S&B 9th Street
Flint
Packard's
Garage Midtown
Louie's Midtown
GoGo Sushi
Urban Johnnie
WXYZ at Aloft
Deep Deuce Grill
O Bar
Cafe do Brasil
Cuppie's and Joe
Speakeasy
Sushi Neko
Lobby Bar
West
RePUBlic
Mule
Empire Slice House
Saints
Sauced
The Other Room (Paseo)
Picasso's
Red Rock Canyon Grill


Those are just the ones I can think of quickly off of the top of my head. Go check out a few of those this weekend and I challenge you to come back here Monday and say OKC can't be (and isn't already) a great place for outdoor.

No kidding. I happened to wander up and down the canal on Wednesday night around 9-ish and there were plenty of people out on the patios.

By the way, a few of the places currently under construction (Pump Bar, Guyutes, Bleu Garten, Fassler Hall) are going to put much of that already-impressive list to shame for great outdoor space. A couple of them have built their entire business plan around outdoor dining/drinking.

I will never understand why people insist OKC doesn't/can't do patios. Every opportunity to be on a patio I'm there.

Thank you Urbanized.. as I was reading bombers post I was thinking. .::: WHEN WAS LAST TIME YOU WERE IN BRICKTOWN OR MIDTOWN::::: patios are packed most of the time .. this summer being mild it has really been busier even in times when most summers you couldn't dine outside. I am not sure how anyone could say OKC isn't using patios and doesn't want more.

That's simply not true. The patios on the canal are PACKED on evenings and especially weekends and event nights. A few of them are also busy at lunch times during weekdays, including Bourbon Street, Chelino's (street level canal patio), Zio's, and KD's on weekends. There are also far more active patios on the canal than some people choose to believe. I detailed this in another thread, but here are the patios on the canal, all of which get respectable business:


Biting Sow/Mojo's
Zio's
Chelino's
Bourbon Street
Captain Norm's Dockside Bar
Pinot's Palette
Put a Cork in it Winery
Knuck's (railing)
Starbuck's
Texadelphia (not fronting canal, but building does)
Bolero
In The Raw
Red Pin
Sonic (plaza above)
Fuzzy's
Earl's Rib Palace
KD's Southern Cuisine


Additionally, House of Bedlam has a pretty good sized patio/outdoor plan. If you think these patios are "empty" I suggest you come down tonight or Saturday night and see for yourself how wrong that impression is. In scorching weather of course they are empty during the heat of the day, but come fall they will be busy at lunch once again. I would also challenge you to check out the upstairs patio at Nonna's, and the patio at Skinny Slim's.

Seriously though - despite the fact that it today has the largest number of outdoor seats as a district and probably qualifies as the most high-volume outdoor venue, Bricktown and the canal have historically not been great examples of good outdoor. For years it was horribly underutilized. The canal itself famously languished for years because property owners were content to wait for tenants to take large floorplates or whole buildings, which never happened. Other districts didn't wait once they got going, and if you think outdoor doesn't work well in OKC I would guess that you have never been to any of the following places in the central city on a nice (or even not-so-nice) evening:


Red Prime
Peleton
Iguana
S&B 9th Street
Flint
Packard's
Garage Midtown
Louie's Midtown
GoGo Sushi
Urban Johnnie
WXYZ at Aloft
Deep Deuce Grill
O Bar
Cafe do Brasil
Cuppie's and Joe
Speakeasy
Sushi Neko
Lobby Bar
West
RePUBlic
Mule
Empire Slice House
Saints
Sauced
The Other Room (Paseo)
Picasso's
Red Rock Canyon Grill


Those are just the ones I can think of quickly off of the top of my head. Go check out a few of those this weekend and I challenge you to come back here Monday and say OKC can't be (and isn't already) a great place for outdoor.

Completely agree (though you left off Yucatan Taco stand who has a cool patio above bourbon street). The restaurants that open up to their patios or at least have made some effort to create a defined, comfortable patio space seem to have a lot more success with them than someone like Chelinos or Zio's who just threw some patio tables out there and called it a day. I would like to see both Chelinos and Zio's do a little more with there spaces. Chelinos has two stories to work with but seems to pay very little attention to both, especially the canal level. If they were to add a cabana bar on either level, maybe a TV or two (not trying to be a classy patio here, it's Chelinos) or a small live music stage, I think that would go a long way toward bringing life to that part of the canal (and there patio). Zio's doesn't have as much space to work with but could easily do something more along the lines of what Yucatan has done (and maybe they have, I haven't paid much attention lately). Same goes for Red Pin's patio.

However the idea that no one uses the patios is ridiculous. They are consistently in use all over town. At any rate, my age group generally seems to prefer patio dining so they will grow in popularity as more people continue to move downtown. Even when too hot, Misting systems and fans can be added to make the heat more than tolerable, especially at night. I think mahogany is missing a big opportunity here and seems to be the wrong for that corner... Hope they adapt to this location better eventually.


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Doh. Don't tell Yucatan that I missed them on the list. They are friends, and their patio is among the best on the canal.

Doh. Don't tell Yucatan that I missed them on the list. They are friends, and their patio is among the best on the canal.

Your secret is safe with me


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Plus they are open/serve food later than most (1am instead of midnight), it's yummy, and it never seems to be TOO crowded yet keeps plenty busy.

Don't forget the mimes

And Peruvian Pan Flute bands like you have all over Europe.

I will never understand why people insist OKC doesn't/can't do patios. Every opportunity to be on a patio I'm there.

I think some people don't like them, and so they assume everybody doesn't like them.

No kidding. I happened to wander up and down the canal on Wednesday night around 9-ish and there were plenty of people out on the patios.

Patios are the current trend with a number of restaurants. Broadway downtown (Automobile Alley) & NW 23rd Street west of Robinson to Classen has a number of patios in use. It's exciting to see the restaurant scene development in OKC.


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

For all of you that gripe about the patio thing, if patios are so awesome in Oklahoma, why is it all of the patio areas on any ground/upper desk restaurant on the canal are mostly empty? And for that matter, places like The Mantle (off the canal) don't exactly have people lining up at the door to sit outside, and theirs is more protected than most. At least Bourbon Street has cover, there's not direct sun, there's landscaping, some coolness off the water...it's really the best patio on the canal. It also happens to be at the end where you dont have to really worry about walk-throughs. Hanging out for a short period for a cup of coffee in a little "cafe" type patio is very different from sitting for an hour for your meal. I'm not persuading the argument in favor or against patios, but i'm just saying that it's not something that a lot of people in OKC seem to go for. San Antonio's canal was constructed VERY differently, but they had the benefit of being on the actual river. It makes a BIIIIIIG difference in how the whole thing works. Not to mention that they weren't trying to squeeze it in the space of a 2 land street (well 2 plus parking). There's only so much room to do something here, including the Century. For the upscale steakhouse crowd, i think that valet service is going to be much more valuable than patio space. Besides the fact that they will make money off of it. And with patio, you do have the chance of your stuff being stolen, damaged by our weather, or whatever.

I do find it funny in Oklahoma how the liquor thing makes it so litigious. In New Orleans (granted its an extreme) you can get a plastic "To-Go" cup for your liquor at almost any restaurant in the quarter. In fact i have a few of them myself.

I was downtown during lunchtime this week and ate across from Century. I have to say, i really thought they would be further along than this. The demolition work seems to be taking a long time for the amount of work there is. Demo work is also the fast part on a project, so if they're moving this slow now, i hope they dont move even slower on the actual construction. It almost feels like it would have been faster to knock the thing down and start over!for real!? Nearly every time I eat in Bricktown, there is an extra wait time to sit outside

Maybe i have bad timing then. I'm usually there during lunch rather than dinner. And i'm usually there during the week as opposed to the weekend.

Yeah, lunch - especially in the hot summertime - is a bad time to catch patio activity in Bricktown (or most places I know, with the exception of The Mont in Norman).

Maybe i have bad timing then. I'm usually there during lunch rather than dinner. And i'm usually there during the week as opposed to the weekend.well depends of you like patios or not :p

For me, you have good timing lol

I think I saw PluPan's favorite patio on Twitter the other day (courtesy @okcsuburbanite):

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BsmdLMICYAA2FGg.jpg

I think I saw PluPan's favorite patio on Twitter the other day (courtesy @okcsuburbanite):

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BsmdLMICYAA2FGg.jpgohhhh.... That Street looks to only be four lanes.... It needs to be six for me to enjoy an acceptable patio

Lol

It's actually just the access road (Memorial) for the Kilpatrick Turnpike. Sure, the Kilpatrick could be a few lanes wider, but we're trying. On the plus side, I see a sidewalk, so it is TOTALLY walkable!

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/08/18/ba625d718a3a6d472d2dc93bfa6fc227.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/08/18/2e2b3b8aa5b00eb85cc746c5a17ae2b8.jpg


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Found this in old marketing materials for the Century Center. Shows where CVS was to have gone:


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/cccvs.jpg

Well, it's still good to know we are being considered by CVS. Is it sure they pulled back because of lack of rooftops or did the negations just go south? I hope it's the last one, because that means they will still likely build I would think.

If not, it's just a matter of time before downtown reaches a big number of residents.

CVS corporate killed the deal -- not enough residences in a 1- and 3-mile radius.

They'll ultimately regret that, but it was the right spreadsheet decision for somebody sitting at a desk in Rhode Island.

They'll ultimately regret that, but it was the right spreadsheet decision for somebody sitting at a desk in Rhode Island.+1

They'll ultimately regret that, but it was the right spreadsheet decision for somebody sitting at a desk in Rhode Island.

They're way too big to regret anything…

I asked this question at some point, and I can't remember if it was answered, but when these big retail corporations are looking at a piece of real estate as a potential home for their business, do they only consider what is currently developed, or do they consider the future development as well? At this exact moment, there simply is not much in the way of downtown housing. In 2 years from now, there will be thousands more people living and working downtown…But to say no to something simply because it's not right here right now with no account for the very near future seems ridiculous at best…even for massive corporations.

Yeah, when I typed it I knew that the truth is that - at least on a corporate level - they will never look back and realize that it was a missed opportunity. I almost went back and followed up with what you said. I only mean that hindsight will prove it a regrettable decision. But based on their standardized decision-making process, it was the correct one. National retailers don't bet on the come. Frankly I'm surprised it got as far along as it did before some pencil-pusher back east killed it.

Curtain wall framing is going up. I don't have a picture yet.

They also have a good portion of the interior framing done, and yesterday the exposed level of parking began receiving a coating, which looks like it might be a moisture barrier as well as a cosmetic upgrade.

They're way too big to regret anything…

I asked this question at some point, and I can't remember if it was answered, but when these big retail corporations are looking at a piece of real estate as a potential home for their business, do they only consider what is currently developed, or do they consider the future development as well? At this exact moment, there simply is not much in the way of downtown housing. In 2 years from now, there will be thousands more people living and working downtown…But to say no to something simply because it's not right here right now with no account for the very near future seems ridiculous at best…even for massive corporations.

Almost all national retail chains have local / regional real estate reps that scout sites based on the overall company plan. Example (completely fabricated): CVS is budgeted to open 50 new locations in the U.S. in 2014, 10 in the Texas/Oklahoma region.

The regional reps then submit their locations, general terms and demographic data to corporate, which evaluates all sites, picks which ones get the green light and then sets priorities in terms of development.

When the regional reps submit their sites, they provide as much info as possible, but the final decisions are almost always made by people who never physically see the properties.

Also, keep in mind that the people involved in making these decisions have little to gain if the stores are successful (that is expected and others will gladly take the credit) and a lot to lose if one is not (why on earth did you approve that location??). So, national chains are almost extremely conservative in their site selection. No one in CVS gives a rat's rear if OKC gets a downtown drug store; it's all very model-driven.

In fact, most large retailers wait for others to do their work for them and establish a track record of success before they do anything. When I was a commercial RE broker I helped bring Walgreens to the state in the late 80's, and only then did CVS follow. This approach is not only common with new cities, but new areas; such as far north OKC or downtown. Since those areas are evolving, they wait to get hard data from other stores before they move.

And I have to say having worked in the corporate world where I was responsible for building and pitching pro formas upstream for new locations (financial services) I can tell you that I didn't take any chances either. When a new location doesn't work out, do you think the corporate bigwigs take the blame or do they point the finger at the person who gave them numbers that didn't prove out?

Another big variable in the Century Center scenario for CVS is construction cost. When they buy a piece of dirt and build, they know exactly what it's going to cost. Going into an existing, older building with lots of moving parts represents another degree of risk.

I worked for mid-tier big box retailer a few years ago, and all of their new locations were conveniently located in whatever new development Lowe's decided to build in.

I stayed in DT Dallas and remember how cool it was to have a CVS nearby. We were VISITING and used this location probably 3 times in a few days. It is nicely positioned below residential and still in the CBD.

9005

^

As a traveler, having a drug store -- especially one with extended hours -- within walking distances is a fantastic amenity.

Modern drug stores have a little bit of everything and generally feature pretty decent prices as well. Beats the heck out of being fleeced by the hotel / mini-bar.

Not only will finishing the apartments that are on the drawing board help, but I would think the proximity of the new CC and CC Hotel would be influential in a decision, as well. It is all about predictable traffic.

I stayed in DT Dallas and remember how cool it was to have a CVS nearby. We were VISITING and used this location probably 3 times in a few days. It is nicely positioned below residential and still in the CBD.

9005

I remember going there when we stayed at the Magnolia Hotel and my wife had a headache and no aspirin. At least, I think it was that one.

Glass being installed on North and West sides of first floor today

This was just taken:


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/cc082614.jpg

Very exciting news...can't wait to see some more pics


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I thought the orange-ish exterior was going away? Are they just painting over it after the glass is installed?

was about to ask the same thing

The glass is actually going into the openings, so they may be waiting to paint until after the windows go in (which is a big priority in order to start interior work) and then paint the concrete parts before they add the mesh that will cover the upper parking levels:

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/5033d1384531493-century-center-cc1115131.jpg

the rendering looks much better than that orange. OMG, it looks so refreshing in this rendering.

From https://twitter.com/TylerBHolmes:


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwBJKqwIIAAjbU7.jpg

^

Looks like those cross-braces are permanent.

I like the look of the cross braces actually.

The last time I was down there they were painting them white so I guess that's going to become an architectural element


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Very nice.

This project has been on my "nicely designed" list since the Butzer Gardner renderings. It hasn't disappointed me yet.

From Monday:

90529053

Just that little peek as to what-is-to-be gets me excited. What an incredible improvement this is going to be!

I like the look of the cross braces actually.


The last time I was down there they were painting them white so I guess that's going to become an architectural element


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Fine by me, it's a nice visual interest element.

Couple from today from catch22:


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/cc083014a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/cc083014b.jpg

From Will:


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/cc083114a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/cc083114b.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/cc083114c.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/cc083114d.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/cc083114e.jpg

CVS corporate killed the deal -- not enough residences in a 1- and 3-mile radius.

CVS put one in on Campus Corner. What a great, walkable district that is. But are there really more households near that CVS in Norman? How did they sneak that one past corporate?

Campus Corner has a CVS? Did not realize that, but other than King Kopy and O'Connell's I am not down there much and I tend to use alleys to reach either.
Where is the CVS located.


on edit: a 1 and 3 mile radius ring around a center point of Asp and Boyd covers a lot of rooftops (but also includes a couple of other CVS stores).

CVS put one in on Campus Corner. What a great, walkable district that is. But are there really more households near that CVS in Norman? How did they sneak that one past corporate?

My guess is that CVS corporate only considered current rooftops and not everything that is going up. If they re-ran their formula in two years, it will probably pass for downtown OKC.

CVS put one in on Campus Corner. What a great, walkable district that is. But are there really more households near that CVS in Norman? How did they sneak that one past corporate?

OU houses a ton of people.

I think the ultimate issue is that someone tried too early to get CVS downtown. In 2 years, I don't think it will be difficult at all, though the location will certainly be different. There's still relatively little housing downtown, but it is about to explode.

There are dense neighborhoods on three sides of Campus Corner, dense student housing on the south side of the campus, and tens of thousands living within a 2-3 mile radius. There is no comparison. Zero.