Seems like a better fit in CBD than Bricktown..? Kind of a bummer for a few of the others who have added breakfast though, like Cafe 7 and of course Kitchen 324 who started with it, though I'm sure they'll be fine with the loyal customers they have developed.

Not necessarily, but the CBD needs more life and this will push it in that direction.

Gone are the days of someone pulling out their wallent and showing you a string of 24 photos of their kids dating back 10+ years. Now they pull out their phone and show you 2100 photos dating back to last month.

Not all progress is good.

People still use store photo processing?

It's making those special books for the 40% discount that we like, plus the personalized Christmas cards.

Not all progress is good.

Not all progress is progress.

Corner Bakery would be a good fit for CC in Downtown OKC. I frequent them quite often here in Dallas and they have great coffee, lemonade and those speciality panini sandwiches. Their pastries are always good and fresh. I have also had their salads and they are really good!

LOL - I knew that was coming. Yep - photo albums, pictures to grandma, school project boards, hardcopy back-up, framing, etc...

Some people like e-books and some people still like to hold a book.

Exactly right, Kerry. I still like to have photos displayed in various places in my home. I have numerous framed photos of my children in my bedroom.

Here's some of their urban concepts.

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/03/af/b4/22/corner-bakery-k-st-nw.jpg

http://a3.urbancdn.com/w/s/K0/iPldfNKR7MzLpm.jpg

Yes please

Thanks Metro - I thought about posting photos of urban locations also since that is the kind which will be in OKC.

Thanks Metro - I thought about posting photos of urban locations also since that is the kind which will be in OKC. We HOPE! No guarantees, and OKC isn't known for having high design standards, but hopefully the bar has been raised enough and negotiations are legit.

6klBx99-DpQ

There doesn't appear to be much to look at there yet from the outside, anyway.

This is from: https://twitter.com/shollyokc

Space is almost completely gutted now.

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/6342d1390522020-century-center-cc012314.jpg

Will the connection to the hotel be closed off?

Will the connection to the hotel be closed off?

I can't imagine any reason why it would be.

No, the hotel will still be connected.

See the floor plans in the article above.

No, the hotel will still be connected.

See the floor plans in the article above.

I see that, but it looks like there's doors there. I can't tell in the drawings if those would remain closed during operation or if there was some expectation that people in the hotel would be able to enter the tenant space (e.g. will there be atrium-fronted entrances for CVS and Corner Bakery? presumably there wouldn't be for DOK, unless access controlled by key-card/fob. I see interior doors for the tenant space, but it's unclear if that's employee use only or public access).

This is from: https://twitter.com/shollyokc

Space is almost completely gutted now.

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/6342d1390522020-century-center-cc012314.jpg

Looks so much better.

The doors from the hotel will probably remain as they have always been and in the past -- even when the CC space was empty for years -- those doors were open.

If you look at the plans, the hotel opens into the atrium and then through the atrium and hallways inside the CC, people would be able to enter from the inside as well as the outside.

The exterior concrete panels will start coming off later in the spring. Once people see those coming off and see the skeleton structure, that will generate a lot of buzz. The parking garage is also about to be remodeled, about a $2.5 - $3m effort.

I can't imagine any reason why it would be.

Please note that I meant to say I can't imagine any reason why it wouldn't be.

Some very disappointing news...

I heard about a week ago that the CVS deal cratered. That corporate balked at the end due to the standard objections: not enough rooftops.

Also, I heard that Corner Bakery has backed out as well.


I believe they are now back to Hal Smith trying to revive the restaurant deal.


Total bummer.

Wow

That sucks hard.

Yippee!!

:/ :(

Also disappointed Hal Smith is the best they can find to court a restaurant deal.

Incredibly disappointing for downtown. Somebody has to be first. I thought these folks had some vision.

Maybe they should give Dunkin a call since they have publicaly committed to a large number of locations here.

Some very disappointing news...

I heard about a week ago that the CVS deal cratered. That corporate balked at the end due to the standard objections: not enough rooftops.

Also, I heard that Corner Bakery has backed out as well.


I believe they are now back to Hal Smith trying to revive the restaurant deal.


Total bummer.

Any chance we know if they were looking at current rooftops or projected rooftops?

If the former, then I can live with the decision for now. If the latter, then that's very concerning.

Wow, that blows. Coming up short again.

Any chance we know if they were looking at current rooftops or projected rooftops?

If the former, then I can live with the decision for now. If the latter, then that's very concerning.

I wrote them an email when I first moved downtown and asked about a CVS here. They told me that they like a population of 10,000 minimum in the area to open a store. Maybe we need an enterprising pharmacist to open a small business.

^

There is a pharmacist in the First National Center called the Medicine Cabinet:

http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=Urban+Retail+Summary

Wow, that blows. Coming up short again.

Agreed. This is very disappointing indeed. OKC can never seem to cut a break when it comes to getting national retail, be it downtown or in the burbs. I am sure a local restaurant will do very well though and tend to support them over the big chains if I can. A store like CVS is really necessary though. I wonder if Walgreens can be lured? If not, what about Buy for Less or Crest? I personally think one of those would be better for downtown than waiting for Wal-Mart or Target to build because they are locally owned and also understand the market here.

Some very disappointing news...

I heard about a week ago that the CVS deal cratered. That corporate balked at the end due to the standard objections: not enough rooftops.

Also, I heard that Corner Bakery has backed out as well.


I believe they are now back to Hal Smith trying to revive the restaurant deal.


Total bummer.


Gee, thanks ED.


(before anyone crawls up my arse over this, know it is merely my parody of all the tinhatters who blame some politco for every slight, real or imagined.)

Gee, thanks ED.

We should have at least had a vote before it died...

This is incredibly disappointing. Having a CVS or Walgreens downtown may not seem like that big of a deal, but it is significant. I am surprised at the rationale though. Downtown Phoenix doesn't seem to have more rooftops than OKC, but they have a CVS.

This must have been what Steve tweeted about saying something along the lines of 'hearing a retail opportunity downtown has fallen through and this is why I don't release information until it is concrete.'

Anyway, this is very sad news. This would have been huge.

CVS in the Century Center wasn't just a rumor...

It's on the latest project list for the OKC Economic Development Trust exactly as: "Century Center CVS".

They also list Costco but don't name a specific location (as I posted on the Costco site).

I wrote them an email when I first moved downtown and asked about a CVS here. They told me that they like a population of 10,000 minimum in the area to open a store. Maybe we need an enterprising pharmacist to open a small business.

What is the "area"? 10 block radius? 5 mile radius?

This is incredibly disappointing. Having a CVS or Walgreens downtown may not seem like that big of a deal, but it is significant. I am surprised at the rationale though. Downtown Phoenix doesn't seem to have more rooftops than OKC, but they have a CVS.

If CVS could sell strong beer/wine there is no doubt the deal would have happened. In Arizona I am pretty sure they can sell hard liquor even. In states like ours with draconian liquor laws, it takes more rooftops to be able to support a grocery store or a store like CVS than it would in states with more lax liquor laws. This is why getting the liquor laws liberalized would benefit everyone, even those who don't drink.

One door closes, another one opens. Maybe CVS was a bit premature.

Looks like Walgreens will just have to build two locations on the same corner opposite each other :)

Looks like Walgreens will just have to build two locations on the same corner opposite each other :)

I don't know about anything else, but yeah, I laughed. Out loud even.

What kills me about this is that, if you've read the book "Good to Great", you see part of how Walgreens achieved their success included tracking metrics on a per-customer basis instead of a per-store basis, using 9-store clusters within cities, knowing that the point was to shower customers with convenient locations. They expected certain stores would lose money, but that per-customer spending would rise within the cluster, which it did. By this model, there's no reason we shouldn't be able to support one downtown, because I think downtown per-customer spending would be high for folks like myself that would shop there quite a bit, being so close. Unless they've changed things since that book was written.

What is the "area"? 10 block radius? 5 mile radius?

Since there's one at 23rd and Classen and they were considering a store downtown, you'd have to think maybe a 1 mile radius is what they were using here.

I want to see this type of development as much as anyone, but I'm sorry, people on here have an outsized opinion of the present appeal of downtown to national retailers who live and die by the spreadsheet. I understand that the tiny but growing population to the north and east provide an appealing demographic mix.

But if it were based on the afore-mentioned one mile radius and you looked at it on a map, everything from half-past-two on the clock face to the ten o'clock position would consist of office, industrial, and brownfield, with some hotel rooms sprinkled in. If you went beyond a mile in those directions, it becomes even more depressing...in a hurry.

This type of retail is probably going to require some combination of the following:


A leap of faith on the part of the retailer (easier when the retailer is local)
Crazy sales tax collection reports for the zip code in question
Elapsed time (simply put: more rooftops)
Subsidy

Honestly, if it's going to happen organically, I think it's more likely to happen north of this location, perhaps in Midtown. I didn't disbelieve that it was happening, but if it doesn't I understand why.

I want to see this type of development as much as anyone, but I'm sorry, people on here have an outsized opinion of the present appeal of downtown to national retailers who live and die by the spreadsheet. I understand that the tiny but growing population to the north and east provide an appealing demographic mix.

But if it were based on the afore-mentioned one mile radius and you looked at it on a map, everything from half-past-two on the clock face to the ten o'clock position would consist of office, industrial, and brownfield, with some hotel rooms sprinkled in. If you went beyond a mile in those directions, it becomes even more depressing...in a hurry.

This type of retail is probably going to require some combination of the following:


A leap of faith on the part of the retailer (easier when the retailer is local)
Crazy sales tax collection reports for the zip code in question
Elapsed time (simply put: more rooftops)
Subsidy

Honestly, if it's going to happen organically, I think it's more likely to happen north of this location, perhaps in Midtown. I didn't disbelieve that it was happening, but if it doesn't I understand why.

Completely agree with this.

I was skeptical of CVS to Century Center in the first place. Even if it were to go downtown, Century Center isn't the optimal location. Midtown or North Auto Alley would be better. Deep Deuce might work but its more likely after it continues to be built out.

When you factor in the draconian liquor laws, it looks even worse. In states with more liberal liquor laws, national retailers can afford to take more risk because they will still make a profit on alcohol sales. In Oklahoma they don't have that to fall back on. That will affect a national retailer's willingness to locate downtown.

I thought it was an odd location for a CVS as well. We usually use a pharmacy in the evening, and that's the one direction we don't go at night because there's not much there. Now we have Park House and Flint is there, but most of the other restaurants are closed at night. I'd be just as happy with a Midtown location.

I want to see this type of development as much as anyone, but I'm sorry, people on here have an outsized opinion of the present appeal of downtown to national retailers who live and die by the spreadsheet. I understand that the tiny but growing population to the north and east provide an appealing demographic mix.

But if it were based on the afore-mentioned one mile radius and you looked at it on a map, everything from half-past-two on the clock face to the ten o'clock position would consist of office, industrial, and brownfield, with some hotel rooms sprinkled in. If you went beyond a mile in those directions, it becomes even more depressing...in a hurry.

This type of retail is probably going to require some combination of the following:


A leap of faith on the part of the retailer (easier when the retailer is local)
Crazy sales tax collection reports for the zip code in question
Elapsed time (simply put: more rooftops)
Subsidy

Honestly, if it's going to happen organically, I think it's more likely to happen north of this location, perhaps in Midtown. I didn't disbelieve that it was happening, but if it doesn't I understand why.

Ed Shadid recently referred to a downtown population of 2,000. The US Census indicated 6,000 people living downtown in 2010, which is a very big difference. We've grown a lot since 2010 and are on pace to keep adding downtown residents by the thousands.

Once we hit 10 and 15,000 downtown residents that should tip the scale for retail.

Pete had a reliable number somewhere but I'm too lazy to try to find it. I think there are enough new projects on the books that once they are built the population number could be more persuasive. The problem is that we will probably need to wait for the to be completed. National retailers are the opposite of risk-takers, and don't do anything based on faith or on confidence in the yet-to-be-realized future of an area.

Yeah, I don't think this will be a problem for too much longer. Once the current projects have been completed we'll have a lot more people downtown. It might take 3 or 4 years, which I know is a long time to the folks already living here, but it will go by pretty quickly all things considered.

Here's my question: According to what we've read, CVS was seriously interested in this location. If it never met their threshold for development why were they even considering it? Same goes for the restaurant that was being discussed. Could it be there's more to this story and things broke down during negotiations with the owner? In other words, if this location never fit what they would develop why were they even entertaining it?

Looks like Walgreens will just have to build two locations on the same corner opposite each other :)

Ha. Yeah, I doubt CVS looked at any numbers. They just looked at Google street view and said, "wait, where's the Walgreen's?"


I want to see this type of development as much as anyone, but I'm sorry, people on here have an outsized opinion of the present appeal of downtown to national retailers who live and die by the spreadsheet. I understand that the tiny but growing population to the north and east provide an appealing demographic mix.

But if it were based on the afore-mentioned one mile radius and you looked at it on a map, everything from half-past-two on the clock face to the ten o'clock position would consist of office, industrial, and brownfield, with some hotel rooms sprinkled in. If you went beyond a mile in those directions, it becomes even more depressing...in a hurry.

This type of retail is probably going to require some combination of the following:

A leap of faith on the part of the retailer (easier when the retailer is local)
Crazy sales tax collection reports for the zip code in question
Elapsed time (simply put: more rooftops)
Subsidy

Honestly, if it's going to happen organically, I think it's more likely to happen north of this location, perhaps in Midtown. I didn't disbelieve that it was happening, but if it doesn't I understand why.

I agree. From that location heading south, you have to cross the river before you run in to any residential. So, if they're looking at numbers using a fixed radius, the southern half of the circle is basically empty.

Midtown and AA make a lot more sense. The inclusion of HH and Mesta would help the income and education demo too.

Your time line is probably pretty good too. Once Maywood, Metropolitan and the Edge are complete and the streetcar's running up and down Broadway and Robinson, I think this is when they'll get interested.

Personally, I hope it gets filled up with local businesses first, but independent pharmacies that are like CVS and Wallgreen's are pretty much extinct.

...I agree. From that location heading south, you have to cross the river before you run in to any residential. So, if they're looking at numbers using a fixed radius, the southern half of the circle is basically empty.
Yep. Even worse than that I think...I would call it the entire SW 3/4 of the radius. If I'm a national retail location scout not from here I laugh in the face of someone who shows me that location. The fact that apparently they were strongly considering it at some point actually speaks volumes about the positive picture that the broker have painted. That is a recommendation for the people putting this project together, even if they didn't get this one across the line.


...Personally, I hope it gets filled up with local businesses first, but independent pharmacies that are like CVS and Wallgreen's are pretty much extinct.

Yeah, I am a strong proponent of local retail, but here is one area where I think a national would be best for downtown (although I hate it for the Medicine Chest). The problem with locals in this segment is that they are almost exclusively drugstores, while a CVS/Walgreens also relieves some of the pent-up demand for a grocery store without stepping on Native Roots. In fact, I think it complements NR, as has been pointed out previously. It is also a "safe" place for the many visitors, both business and leisure, in downtown.

As I've stated before, chain retailers look very hard at 1-, 3- and 5-mile radii; primarily population and income.

In this case, they would also take into consideration the immediate workforce as they have plenty of locations in downtown areas.

I don't know for sure it was demographics that killed this deal, but wouldn't be surprised. I spoke to Walgreens a couple of years ago (I used to represent them in OK when I was a real estate broker) and they told me they felt their 23rd & Classen location served most the people to the south and east (Gatewood, Heritage Hills, Mesta Park, Paseo, Jeff Park) and had no interest in downtown.

Of course, there is a CVS at 23rd & Classen as well.

As I've stated before, chain retailers look very hard at 1-, 3- and 5-mile radii; primarily population and income.

In this case, they would also take into consideration the immediate workforce as they have plenty of locations in downtown areas.

I don't know for sure it was demographics that killed this deal, but wouldn't be surprised. I spoke to Walgreens a couple of years ago (I used to represent them in OK when I was a real estate broker) and they told me they felt their 23rd & Classen location served most the people to the south and east (Gatewood, Heritage Hills, Mesta Park, Paseo, Jeff Park) and had no interest in downtown.

Of course, there is a CVS at 23rd & Classen as well.

Am I right to say that for chain retailers and grocers, it takes more rooftops to meet their criteria in a state like ours where they can't sell wine and strong beer?

Regardless, this may end up for the best. CVS (or Walgreens) may end up at a more attractive, convenient location than Century Center. In my opinion it would do best on the ground floor of a residential development.

I think the thing that I like(d?) best about the location is (was?) the visibility. Truthfully, knowing what I do about downtown, about visitors, about vehicle traffic patterns, etc., I personally would prefer the south facade Century Center location to something north of the core, if I were doing their site selection. I really do think it was an excellent location for this. But, I'm not, and they don't.

Here's my question: According to what we've read, CVS was seriously interested in this location. If it never met their threshold for development why were they even considering it? Same goes for the restaurant that was being discussed. Could it be there's more to this story and things broke down during negotiations with the owner? In other words, if this location never fit what they would develop why were they even entertaining it?

Bump

^

Because every location for a chain store goes through a multi-level approval stage.

These deals usually start with a commercial real estate broker marketing a property and pushing for a deal. The real estate rep for the chain with responsibility for the area takes a look at it, usually says no, broker/developer keeps working them.

Finally, the real estate rep says they are willing to look at it, and the negotiation starts.

Usually from the beginning the next level of management within the retail organization takes a look at the general deal but doesn't make any decisions.

As negotiations continue, the deal can die before it ever gets past the real estate rep. They might not like the terms or they get nervous about the location, or something changes such as the chain is pulling back in general, or they found another deal close by or they merely place other markets / areas as high priorities.

Even after the deal is negotiated with the real estate rep, it has to be approved by several levels above. They may reject based on demographics, broader issues within the organization, or local issues, such as other stores in the market are bigger priorities. Or, they may push back for a better deal, and the developer rejects.

In the end, everyone has to agree or the deal gets squashed.

Many, many times as a broker I had a deal about 98% done and something in corporate killed it. And in more than one case, we had agreements signed and the deals still cratered.

Yep. Even worse than that I think...I would call it the entire SW 3/4 of the radius. If I'm a national retail location scout not from here I laugh in the face of someone who shows me that location. The fact that apparently they were strongly considering it at some point actually speaks volumes about the positive picture that the broker have painted. That is a recommendation for the people putting this project together, even if they didn't get this one across the line.



Yeah, I am a strong proponent of local retail, but here is one area where I think a national would be best for downtown (although I hate it for the Medicine Chest). The problem with locals in this segment is that they are almost exclusively drugstores, while a CVS/Walgreens also relieves some of the pent-up demand for a grocery store without stepping on Native Roots. In fact, I think it complements NR, as has been pointed out previously. It is also a "safe" place for the many visitors, both business and leisure, in downtown.

I love the Medicine Chest, but it's only really a place to get your script filled between 8 and 5:30 during weekdays. It is nothing like a full-service pharmacy that sells groceries and has advanced hours.

Indeed. That was my point. Though I would expect a national chain to eat into the Medicine Chest's business.

Indeed. That was my point. Though I would expect a national chain to eat into the Medicine Chest's business.

As someone who frequents the Medicine Chest, I mildly disagree. They are incredibly nice and very fast. If you see one of the physicians in the First National Building, they often will have your script filled by the time you walk across the hall.

I have a Walgreen's in my neighborhood, and while I like it, it is anything but prompt when getting a prescription filled.

Because Medicine Chest focuses on medicine -- and virtually nothing else (although I always got a kick out of the selection of hosiery for sale) -- I don't see them being affected much.