Family Dollar needs to go. That building could be better utilized and there's another Family Dollar just west of Classen. My two cents.Agreed

Family Dollar needs to go. That building could be better utilized and there's another Family Dollar just west of Classen. My two cents.

They just spent a bunch of money on a renovation, so I'm sure they aren't going anywhere.

I bet they do very well there.

Family Dollar: There's too many people in the area in low income housing with no transportation to go to classen. I buy water for my job site on the reg there and it's always popping with people buying electric fixtures to ramen by the case.
Truong Thanh: Terresa is a nice lady but she knows she can hold out until it either a. accrues enough value from neighboring developments or b. annoys someone enough to pay the 2 million dollar asking price or lease it, as is, for $15/ft. NNN.
Btw after months of observation, it looks like there's a scalloped copper facia under that banana yellow plywood.
Tower: I would looove for it to be an Alamo drafthouse http://drafthouse.com. It's worked in so many similair markets and buildings.
I don't think there's any point speculating on the cost, only that it will be very expensive, and time consuming. No one in uptown is cutting any corners on their development.

Family Dollar: There's too many people in the area in low income housing with no transportation to go to classen. I buy water for my job site on the reg there and it's always popping with people buying electric fixtures to ramen by the case.
Truong Thanh: Terresa is a nice lady but she knows she can hold out until it either a. accrues enough value from neighboring developments or b. annoys someone enough to pay the 2 million dollar asking price or lease it, as is, for $15/ft. NNN.
Btw after months of observation, it looks like there's a scalloped copper facia under that banana yellow plywood.
Tower: I would looove for it to be an Alamo drafthouse Alamo Drafthouse Cinema : Select your Location (http://drafthouse.com). It's worked in so many similair markets and buildings.
I don't think there's any point speculating on the cost, only that it will be very expensive, and time consuming. No one in uptown is cutting any corners on their development.

Completely agree on the Tower becoming Alamo Drafthouse.

Completely agree on the Tower becoming Alamo Drafthouse.

One can only hope.

OKCTalk seems to be in agreement that Alamo Draft House would a perfect fit for a restored Tower Theater. I wonder if the powers that be will read this thread and take note?

Alamo draft house PLEASE!

Is Alamo Drafthouse a franchise?

Looks like there are 17 mainly in TX (8) and then CO, NY, CA, MI, MO, NE, VA

The Tower is not a good fit for the Alamo business model.

Almost all of their locations are multi-screen, most with 5 or more.

Hate to be a wet blanket, but Alamo Draft House's business model has shifted over the years from single or twin boutique theaters to (usually modern) multi-screen houses. That doesn't meant this couldn't be a similar place (though I would prefer music venue or a combine music/film house), but I'd be surprised if it would make sense for either party to associate the ADH name with a single screen at this point.

Maybe an ADH could be built somewhere downtown as new construction then if they have shifted from boutique theatres to modern.

Don't get me wrong; would LOVE an ADH in OKC, ESPECIALLY in the center of the city somewhere. I just don't believe the Tower is destined for that brand. Go read the ADH Wikipedia entry to gain a better appreciation. They haven't even opened so little as a twin since the early 2000s, and that was in Austin by the original investors. The company now is a major corporation and acts as such; I'd say the average theater (screen numbers are broken out in the wiki entry) is 7 or 8, hardly any fewer than 6 and a number of them 10 and 12 screens. Also, a large number are new construction and suburban. They have become a really, really cool AMC.

Don't get me wrong; would LOVE an ADH in OKC, ESPECIALLY in the center of the city somewhere. I just don't believe the Tower is destined for that brand. Go read the ADH Wikipedia entry to gain a better appreciation. They haven't even opened so little as a twin since the early 2000s, and that was in Austin by the original investors. The company now is a major corporation and acts as such; I'd say the average theater (screen numbers are broken out in the wiki entry) is 7 or 8, hardly any fewer than 6 and a number of them 10 and 12 screens. Also, a large number are new construction and suburban. They have become a really, really cool AMC.

Do you think this would be a better concept to recreate vs. bring in? Just a thought if they are acting like a corporation and moving into more suburban areas. Obviously experience, licensing, etc. would come into play, but just wanted to throw that out there.

It seems like something someone could replicate (with an OKC spin, hopefully) fairly easily. It would be very easy to find seasoned people to operate the bar/food service. Less easy to find a movie house operator, I think. Of course, it could be a risky proposition, for instance if ADH moved into the market shortly after.

Frankly, from what I know I trust that these guys will bring the right fit to the room. They said during the presentation and tour that they were going to do a lot of traveling to other markets in short order, to explorer how other historic theaters have been restored and adapted. Personally, I'm content to see what ideas they come back with.

Since Dallas and KC each have one of these, I am going to go ahead and say this is not what would make them jealous... in case anyone was curious.

It seems like something someone could replicate (with an OKC spin, hopefully) fairly easily. It would be very easy to find seasoned people to operate the bar/food service. Less easy to find a movie house operator, I think. Of course, it could be a risky proposition, for instance if ADH moved into the market shortly after.

Frankly, from what I know I trust that these guys will bring the right fit to the room. They said during the presentation and tour that they were going to do a lot of traveling to other markets in short order, to explorer how other historic theaters have been restored and adapted. Personally, I'm content to see what ideas they come back with.

If a new ADH went somewhere like Chisolm Creek, I am not sure it would affect anything operating at the Tower Theater.

Urbanized - I was a little unclear on my response, I meant in general, not for the Tower Theatre. I think that the ADH concept shows better success with multiple screens. Either way, I am excited to see what they come up with for this space.

No, I was meaning in the central city. But you can't make decisions only based on fear of potential competition; if it's a good business model for that building it's probably still good even if ADH is in town. I'm just saying we shouldn't rush to try to tell these guys what they "have" to put into the space. They're smart guys.

It looks like the Tower guys have already set up a new twitter page and website. I hope that means we will be well informed of what they plan to do.

Twitter (https://twitter.com/TowerTheatreOKC)
Webpage (http://towertheatreokc.com/)

The Tower is not a good fit for the Alamo business model.

Almost all of their locations are multi-screen, most with 5 or more.
Yes, like most movies house you really can't make it in the mass market movie business without multiple screens, a bomb every once in awhile is was killed single or twin screen theaters. Even the Continental here in Denver has a multi-screen complex built next to it. The Alamo in Littleton has seven screens. Single screen theaters only seem to work as arthouse or live stage theaters, one like The Inwood in Dallas has gone to three screens, two of which were added in the 80's.

The Austin Alamo locations ownership are kind of convoluted, it is split between the original founder (with the original Congress Ave. location) and the ones who are running the franchising operations. I believe all outside of Austin are franchises owned by others. As far as other movie/food/drink operators we have one called Movie Tavern (http://www.movietavern.com/) on our side of town in Aurora and I know that a new one was being built in Round Rock about the time that I moved to Denver called Flix Brewhouse (http://www.flixbrewhouse.com/en/texas/flix-brewhouse/) that had it own brewery. Movie Tavern has quite a few locations and Flix has three.

The Tower would be perfect as an indie/art film theater. They work fine with only a single screen and its a niche that currently isn't filled in OKC.

The Tower would be perfect as an indie/art film theater. They work fine with only a single screen and its a niche that currently isn't filled in OKC.

Music Box Theatre - Chicago's year-round film festival (http://www.musicboxtheatre.com) - I believe they have a few screens, not just one, but if we could get something that showed half the films they show..... Saw "Dial M For Murder" in 3-D there (and a few others, not as many as I'd like 'cos we lived in the burbs), wow...

Alamo 6th in Austin(one of the oldest) uses 2 screens and staggers the show times to work around the bar and kitchen sales. The corporate model of ADH does nothing to distract here. A super Walmart being bigger and have higher revenue than a wally's neighborhood market doesn't make it MORE successful. S&B burger in edmond doesn't hurt their sales on 9th. The classic movie show times at Tinseltown are PACKED. And
Last I checked, the Winchester drive in was going strong.

Myths: busted

The Tower would be perfect as an indie/art film theater. They work fine with only a single screen and its a niche that currently isn't filled in OKC.

Sorry, you don't need close to 1,000 seats for that, at least as far as an exclusive use. It would be a waste of the room.

Sorry, you don't need close to 1,000 seats for that, at least as far as an exclusive use. It would be a waste of the room.

So what do you want it to be other than an Alamo Draft House (which won't happen being that their current business model doesn't include single theaters)?

I never said I wanted it to be an Alamo Draft House. I'M the one who pointed out that The ADH model is multi screen.

I want it to be successful. I don't have any preconceived notions of what it SHOULD be. I don't have all of the answers. I'm not trying to impose my will or wish for stuff that doesn't fit, unlike some here. I just want it to be something that preserves and makes great use of the space, and something that has a BUSINESS chance to succeed.

I would LIKE to see live music be at least a part of the equation. Might be a tough fit though, as a different concert promoter would have to emerge. The most active promoters serving OKC are invested in other facilities.

I agree live music would be a good fit but I am not sure the stars are properly aligned for that. Like you say, a new concert promoter would have to emerge.

Maybe an entrepreneur could do an independent cinema concept inspired by Alamo Draft House that shows both first-run movies as well as the indie/art films?

After talking with several (knowledgeable) people about this, the problem is that one stinker can kill a theater. You put too much at risk with a single screen.

If you put a gun to my head and told me to put together a business plan in the next five minutes, the best I could do is say "all of the above," with the exception of first-run. I think I would start wit a bar in the lobby that was open all of the time and became a regular hang. Think Lobby Bar at Will Rogers, and ignore the fact that the theater portion of Will Rogers underperforms. Or actually, consider that.. Having a bar that cash flows all week/year regardless of what's in the theater takes a lot of pressure off of the auditorium to pay the rent.

Beyond that I think you could actually effectively MIX film, concerts, and even live performance. I also think it could serve as a lecture hall and perhaps cash-flow regularly during the day. Perhaps that's the university use that was alluded to?

All I know is it is a LOT of square footage, rent won't necessarily be cheap, and a tenant will probably need to wring as many revenue streams out of it as possible to make the thing cash flow.

I could see it as a church on sundays.

I could see it as a church on sundays.

? Sarcasm?

I could see it as a church on sundays.

Hopefully you kid...

At first yes, but on second thought why not? It has a stage and room for people. I Wonder if life church.tv or similar would be interested.

At first yes, but on second thought why not? It has a stage and room for people. I Wonder if life church.tv or similar would be interested.

Please no. I would rather it be a homeless shelter like somebody a while back was very enthusiastic about making happen than having this be a LifeChurch.

Please no. I would rather it be a homeless shelter like somebody a while back was very enthusiastic about making happen than having this be a LifeChurch.

like

Please no. I would rather it be a homeless shelter like somebody a while back was very enthusiastic about making happen than having this be a LifeChurch.

Such passion. :)

Beyond that I think you could actually effectively MIX film, concerts, and even live performance. I also think it could serve as a lecture hall and perhaps cash-flow regularly during the day. Perhaps that's the university use that was alluded to?



Perhaps it would be a good venue for a local Science on Tap chapter once a month (or something like it)

Science on Tap - Oregon & Washington (Portland, OR) - Meetup (http://www.meetup.com/ScienceOnTapORWA/)

I see no problem with it being a Church *on sundays*. He didn't say that the building should be run as a church all week. There are plenty of churches that wouldn't mind renting the space on that day, and there are not a lot of higher uses for a facility on Sunday at 10AM than a church.

I think Urbanized idea of a multi-use facility would be awesome here: Music, cinema, plays, lectures, etc. etc.

The key to this space getting used all the time will be in the rehab making this space hard *not* to rent. If the place is renovated correctly, people will kill to get in here.

To improve on Urbanized's business model, I would find one thing that the ownership group/facility can specialize in (Cinema or concert promotion most likely), and use that as a way to keep the facility active whenever they don't find other uses for the space.

At first yes, but on second thought why not? It has a stage and room for people. I Wonder if life church.tv or similar would be interested.

As long as it doesn't prevent bars from being located within 300 feet of it, that would be fine if only on Sundays.

So, on my evening run tonight, this was being taped up at the property just east of the theater (sorry for the quality, but they were looking straight at me and I bolted!)
9285

So, on my evening run tonight, this was being taped up at the property just east of the theater (sorry for the quality, but they were looking straight at me and I bolted!)
9285

Be careful... Steve will block you if you point out that he's been critical of things.

So, on my evening run tonight, this was being taped up at the property just east of the theater (sorry for the quality, but they were looking straight at me and I bolted!)
9285

IF my only experience with the woman that owns this building (in passing at the uptown 23rd open streets event) is any indication, I can understand why no one wanted to work with her... she's a huge B****. No of the other business owners were for this because she couldn't add any parking for the proposed venue. I don't blame them.

As long as it doesn't prevent bars from being located within 300 feet of it, that would be fine if only on Sundays.
They would rent it out just like a school auditorium, no ownership issues. Life Church actually had a theater church service (before the other locations or merger with MetroChurch) at the AMC Quail Springs theater. You could also have a new or plant church (in a trailer) that holds services in a location like that, they set up in the morning and tear down after the service leaving no trace that a service took place.

The Gothic Theater here in Denver has a Tuesday night church and they do nothing to hide the bar, there is no bar service that night but it flows the other nights of the week when they have concerts. Not all churches are anti-alcohol. There are also several House of Blues locations which have Sunday morning services with Sunday brunch following. So it is not an uncommon concept in other places.

You've got to wonder how serious an attempt the entertainment venue next door really was. They could have easily appealed the approval process like Guyutes did. Instead, they threw in the towel... just like that.

My hunch is that the whole thing was half-baked.

They would rent it out just like a school auditorium, no ownership issues. Life Church actually had a theater church service (before the other locations or merger with MetroChurch) at the AMC Quail Springs theater. You could also have a new or plant church (in a trailer) that holds services in a location like that, they set up in the morning and tear down after the service leaving no trace that a service took place.

The Gothic Theater here in Denver has a Tuesday night church and they do nothing to hide the bar, there is no bar service that night but it flows the other nights of the week when they have concerts. Not all churches are anti-alcohol. There are also several House of Blues locations which have Sunday morning services with Sunday brunch following. So it is not an uncommon concept in other places.

I'm not concerned with the church's preference but zoning issues that would prevent an ABC 3 bar from being located within 300 feet of a church or a school. A school auditorium would already fall under that restriction so that wouldn't create a zoning issue that didn't already exist. I assume zoning restrictions in Denver are not as harsh as they are here, so that probably isn't a good comparison, but I could be wrong as I have no idea how bars are zoned there. Not sure how a temporary church would affect zoning restrcitions but I assume they wouldn't lease the space for that use if it would be an issue.

I have had some tangential dealings with this law. It is my UNDERSTANDING that even a rental would preclude an ABC-3 type license (liquor/wine/strong beer with no food requirement). This is something I tried to point out to anyone who would listen as the law in question was being modified to allow a SCHOOL to waive the proximity restriction. This was done when the location of ACM@UCO in Bricktown created the unintended consequence of limiting bar applications.

They added the school say-so clause, but didn't mention churches, probably because they didn't want to open that Pandora's box. But churches - no matter how liberal in their approach to liquor - still have an automatic and irrevocable chilling effect on ABC-3 licenses. They were left unaddressed.

Also, prior to the change I know that even the ACM Performance Lab (which is rented) was considered a school property as far as the law was concerned. Therefore you can logically extrapolate that a space rented for church use would kill ABC-3 within the radius, with no recourse under law.

I brought this up citing church-affiliated District House in Plaza as an example, but everyone is unconcerned because plaza is intentionally zoned to not allow ABC-3. The neighborhood wants to limit to ABC-2 (50% or more food sales).

That's all fine and good, but Uptown has no such restrictions, and so I can only assume that a RENTED church space - had one been in place at the time - would have killed Grandad's application, for instance. Kind of scary also when you consider that a few of the 23rd property owners are not on the same page or are even downright antagonistic towards one another. So I'm guessing the Tower team will take all of that into consideration.

Of course, if everyone is shooting for ABC-2 it won't be a problem.

I wasn't sure if a "temporary church" would be under the same restrictions since they are not a full time tenant...of course I think the distance restrictions are pretty stupid anyway.

If ABLE is going to err one way or another in a gray area they will err on the side of caution. "Temporary" isn't addressed in the statute.

Doesn't that distance rule also apply to residences?

For instance, in Charlotte there were homes that had been retrofitted into bars but you don't see much of that here and my guess is an ABC-3 license also had to be 300 ft from a residence as well. Most of the ABC-3 bars I can think of are in Bricktown and aren't near any housing. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. If that is the case, that definitely needs to be revisited as the city gets more and more mixed-use development.

Churches should also have the right to waive the distance requirement because not all of them are antagonistic to alcohol. Do you think there would be a lot of push back against such a change as long as the law remained in effect for churches that refused to grant permission?

No. Schools and churches only, with schools now being able to opt out.

The Civic Center is rented by OKC Community Church every Sunday morning. I don't think a rental applies to the 300 foot rule.

Coincidently, OKC Community Church would be a natural Sunday morning rental tenant for Tower. Their offices/community house is in the bungalow next to Cuppies and Joe.

Where is there an ABC-3 license within 300 feet of the Civic Center?

If the bars inside the Civic Center aren't ABC 3, they're lying about their food receipts.

If the bars inside the Civic Center aren't ABC 3, they're lying about their food receipts.

Those bars are not licensed establishments, at all. They operate under an off-site catering license. A caterer can legally cater booze anywhere, even directly onto church property, as is often done during weddings.

That makes sense. I still don't think a theater rented to a church 2 hours a week falls within the definition of "church property" that is primarily and regularly used for religious services.

For a while in the mid 00's, a church held services on Sunday evenings where Club Rane (Dollhouse) was located...

That makes sense. I still don't think a theater rented to a church 2 hours a week falls within the definition of "church property" that is primarily and regularly used for religious services.

After re-reading the law on this, I think you are correct. You are using exact verbiage from the law; guessing you read it too. I think "primarily" is the key word. It says in part:


...No mixed beverage establishment or bottle club which has as its main purpose the selling or serving of alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises shall be located within three hundred (300) feet of any public or private school or church property primarily and regularly used for worship services and religious activities...
So, I think the Tower could rent to a church and it wouldn't affect anything as long as that church was not the primary use. However, if they rented one of the storefronts to a church and that became the only use it would still be problematic. Obviously they wouldn't do that to themselves, but that law needs to be addressed at some point considering the popularity of urban storefront churches.

After re-reading the law on this, I think you are correct. You are using exact verbiage from the law; guessing you read it too. I think "primarily" is the key word. It says in part:


So, I think the Tower could rent to a church and it wouldn't affect anything as long as that church was not the primary use. However, if they rented one of the storefronts to a church and that became the only use it would still be problematic. Obviously they wouldn't do that to themselves, but that law needs to be addressed at some point considering the popularity of urban storefront churches.

With that, I 100% agree.

The irony is that most storefront churches are more contemporary and liberal in their approach to alcohol. For instance church-affiliated District House actually serves beer. The law is antiquated and at some point it will halt a worthwhile development.

As long as it doesn't prevent bars from being located within 300 feet of it, that would be fine if only on Sundays.

We don't have nearly enough churches in OKC. Let's take one of the few options we have for an entertainment venue and turn it into a church! Let's put churches everywhere!

SARCASM