I inherited two relatively simple neon signs at the Gazette at NW 36th & Shartel.

I paid to have them fixed no less than five times within two years, and replacing them was very expensive.

I'm no longer involved there and the other day I noticed one of them is completely out.

Those signs can be an expensive PITA.

Personally I would only do "fake" neon signs that are actually LED but look neon going forward.

Personally I would only do "fake" neon signs that are actually LED but look neon going forward.

That's what is usually done with new signs.

should we call LEON instead of NEON?

They got called out for their merch practices over the weekend https://twitter.com/usaquarium/status/1598821365783879680?s=46&t=QcBMdzhnoYPwQx5P7PDzvA

They got called out for their merch practices over the weekend https://twitter.com/usaquarium/status/1598821365783879680?s=46&t=QcBMdzhnoYPwQx5P7PDzvA

Interesting. I caught Billy Joel at Madison Square Garden a few months ago and was surprised a the cost for a concert Tee. Was $65 dollars for a tee. I wanted one but knew I would never wear it without thinking I got screwed. Wonder if MSQ takes a cut.

Glad the Tower is renovated and fully activated, but the booking strategy there is very limited. This city needs more than what this ownership group is bringing to the fore. Entire genres of music are ignored because of the predilections of this bro scene.

Happy that our tax dollars were used to keep this venue open!

Hopefully OKC will continue to evolve beyond the limited horizons of the folks promoting this scene.

Curious what genres you think are being missed (and what good examples of such genres would be appropriate for the Tower / actually sell tickets). And also curious when you expand the question to all of the venues booked by the same group of folks.

They got called out for their merch practices over the weekend https://twitter.com/usaquarium/status/1598821365783879680?s=46&t=QcBMdzhnoYPwQx5P7PDzvA

Obviously, it's not unusual,

Seems to be an issue AQ feels strongly about:

https://twitter.com/USAquarium/status/1599197344959934464?cxt=HHwWgMCtgeXgvrEsAAAA

Wonder if MSQ takes a cut.

Without a doubt.

BJ from American Aquarium explains some differences between merch splits at smaller independent venues and larger ones, like MSG, in his video posted to twitter above.

On a completely unrelated note, you can get an MSG t-shirt from the other BJ on his website for $20:

https://billyjoelshop.com/collections/clothing-new/products/billy-joel-10-09-22-msg-event-t-shirt?variant=43429665833219

If he’s talking about indie rock and adjacent genres, there are two issues, IMO. One being that just about every touring show in those genres that I’ve been to recently has been very underattended. Word then presumably gets around about that, and it then becomes more difficult to book additional shows in those genres. There have been multiple bands that I was looking forward to seeing in the last couple of months who cancelled their OKC shows at just about the last minute which I can only assume was because they barely sold any advance tickets, as they still played other shows immediately before and/or after the scheduled OKC dates. The second issue is that post-COVID, it seems just about impossible for indie rock bands to actually make any money touring, there have been bands cancelling entire tours after doing the math and realizing that they were very likely to lose money due to high gas prices, low ticket sales, the possibility of having to cancel a run of dates after getting COVID, etcetera etcetera. And then of top of all that, venues taking a cut of merch sales just exacerbates this problem as well. It’s all very bleak, and about the only positive spin I can come up with is that it does seem like more community-oriented/DIY venues are thriving by comparison, and OKC already has a very good one of these in The Sanctuary (with Norman hopefully getting one soon as well if co-Opolis works out).

Glad the Tower is renovated and fully activated, but the booking strategy there is very limited. This city needs more than what this ownership group is bringing to the fore. Entire genres of music are ignored because of the predilections of this bro scene.

Happy that our tax dollars were used to keep this venue open!

Hopefully OKC will continue to evolve beyond the limited horizons of the folks promoting this scene.

I agree that since the pandemic, their booking has been not quite what it was before. Not sure if I'd call it a bro scene, but it's definitely worse, not nearly as wide-ranging. We saw Book of Love, Gary Numan, Psychedelic Furs, X, Flying Lotus, The Fixx, The Flatlanders, Black Joe Lewis, Kamasi Washington, et al at the Tower before the pandemic. After they re-opened, we've seen Steve Earle.

Criterion's booking wasn't great immediately pre-pandemic, we didn't go there much (last 2 shows we saw before they closed were Bon Iver and Angel Olsen in 2019) , but post-pandemic, we've been there more than the Tower (basically switched places with Tower for amount of shows gone to) - St. Vincent, Khruangbin, Lindsey Buckingham, Gary Clark Jr. (and would've seen Belle & Sebastian, but they moved that to Beer City).

What's interesting is that Criterion, Tower, and Beer City all seem to be tied together, not sure exactly how nowadays, but they all cross-promote every artist at all three venues.

nm, hit reply instead of edit.

I’m pretty sure that Tower, Beer City, Ponyboy, and Criterion all share a talent buyer and that’s the reason for the cross promotion. It was also publicized last spring that the Tower/Beer City/Ponyboy ownership group had to take outside investment from Save Live which I would bet money is the reason why the quality of bookings has declined and why the merch cuts are happening. Again, it’s all just very bleak, because I doubt it would’ve gone down this way if not for COVID, but it was also likely the best of a bunch of bad options that they had to decide between in order to keep operations running. Also just want to add that this is not limited to OKC, the same sort of thing has happened to independent venues all across the country post-COVID.

There's a lot going on in the music industry at large. I don't think it's merely Tower Theatre deciding to focus on certain genres, although that may be part of it. It should be acknowledged that a lot of smaller touring musicians are struggling right now and being priced out of traditional tours and venues. All this consolidation in venue ownership/booking/promotion combined with the rising costs of everything make it increasingly hard for acts to break into the industry. There's going to be more and more commercialization and soulless pop acts and less "home grown" music. These forces have been at work for a long time. Even the Reel Big Fish wrote a song long ago about the pressure to sell out and do what the record industry wanted them to do.

There's a lot more competition between venues in OKC than there used to be - and that's a good thing! Or at least it would be if they weren't all owned by the same small handful of owners... At least it means there are more options for the live music scene than there used to be, as long as the bands and consumers can afford it.

Yeah was obliquely referencing Criterion in my question (which was legitimate and not intended to be snarky), which I agree has improved drastically.

To me at least, the city not being able to sustain/support certain genres or acts is a city problem and not a tower problem. And I know i definitely get in the mindset of “if they’re not booking bands I like they’re not doing a good job booking bands” sometimes. I’m all for more and more diverse genres of music, but they seem to have figured out a formula to stay afloat in what’s definitely a tough time and cant fault em for that, even if it means they don’t book as many bands that I care to see (though there are a number scheduled at all 4 venues I’m excited about).

Obviously, it's not unusual,

Seems to be an issue AQ feels strongly about:

https://twitter.com/USAquarium/status/1599197344959934464?cxt=HHwWgMCtgeXgvrEsAAAA
This issue reminds me how often musicians are not business savvy. When American Aquarium states 100% of online orders benefit the band, they are forgetting, ignoring, or don’t understand that they have overhead that doesn’t apply to venue sales. They pay for web hosting and page design for each item; inventory tracking and billing, plus other costs. I’m guessing they add shipping & handling to online orders. And I would guess a good management group would show them those online costs amount to about 20%.

This issue reminds me how often musicians are not business savvy. When American Aquarium states 100% of online orders benefit the band, they are forgetting, ignoring, or donÂ’t understand that they have overhead that doesnÂ’t apply to venue sales. They pay for web hosting and page design for each item; inventory tracking and billing, plus other costs. IÂ’m guessing they add shipping & handling to online orders. And I would guess a good management group would show them those online costs amount to about 20%.

I think since so many artists have to self manage these days, there are more savvy musicians than one might assume. But, admittedly, they often have to learn the "hard way" and from other bands who have toured on their own before.

I guess overhead of online sales amounting to 20% of sales would depend on volume as a lot of that is a fixed cost. Probably depends mostly on how they're fulfilling those orders and if they have an ad spend budget for their merch. I'm sure it's possible, but sounds high to me.

I'm not really sure how I feel about it as a consumer, since I want to see independent artists and venues do well, especially since I enjoy those shows so much more than arena type shows. But I do get his point about the venue taking 20% without providing the retailing support the larger venues offer. Whatever the actual percentage, there's definitely an overhead to online sales, but there is for on site sales as well. So, to his point, the 20% split to the venue is on top of their cost of running the merch sales themselves, so the net to the band is lower by comparison.

So, without a better option, good management should negotiate the split basis as net of on site overhead and inflate the cost of running the tables. lol

I like that Beer City music hall is booking lots of lesser known acts but wish they would market them a bit better to bring people in. Granada theater is Dallas does a good job of posting the artist and underneath will note " goes well with" and list other bands that might have a bit more name recognition that fit the dame vibe. I think that could bring people in to discover more acts.

I like that Beer City music hall is booking lots of lesser known acts but wish they would market them a bit better to bring people in. Granada theater is Dallas does a good job of posting the artist and underneath will note " goes well with" and list other bands that might have a bit more name recognition that fit the dame vibe. I think that could bring people in to discover more acts.

I haven't checked every show, but I specifically remember Beer City doing this for a few shows recently as I thought it was a great idea.

Edit: it looks like they do that on their IG posts vs. their website.

I haven't checked every show, but I specifically remember Beer City doing this for a few shows recently as I thought it was a great idea.

Edit: it looks like they do that on their IG posts vs. their website.

I'll have to do better checking their IG i guess. thanks for the heads up.

Curious what genres you think are being missed (and what good examples of such genres would be appropriate for the Tower / actually sell tickets). And also curious when you expand the question to all of the venues booked by the same group of folks.
I’m curious too. Maybe I’m an outlier because I’m normally looking for hip-hop shows, but I’ve attended everything from movie screenings to comedy shows there in the past few years.

Caught EARTHGANG there midsummer and it was fantastic, but I definitely don’t consider myself a “bro” or their music “bro scene”.

https://thelostogle.com/2023/03/09/staff-and-management-shake-up-rocks-tower-theatre

https://thelostogle.com/2023/03/09/staff-and-management-shake-up-rocks-tower-theatre

They can't write anything that isn't a character assassination and an attempt to settle some personal grudge. I honestly think TLO hates Oklahoma and everybody in it -- their bitterness wore thin 10 years ago.


All that is happening is an internal reorg and that shouldn't have any impact on the people that patronize the Tower events and shows. Thank goodness they found a way to keep going through a time that destroyed a ton of music venues. They remain a great asset to OKC.

https://thelostogle.com/2023/03/09/staff-and-management-shake-up-rocks-tower-theatre

I can't quite figure out what TLO's beef is with this or Chad. I know layoffs suck and I feel for anyone who has worked in live entertainment over the last 3 years, but sounds like there's some history there that I'm unaware of.

Also, kind of strange to question the concept of a promoter booking shows at venues they own / operate. That's always happened and with Live Nation's dominance, pretty much how it always works these days. Bill Graham was doing that in the 60s AND they managed some of those bands. So then you have a promoter booking a band they also manage into a venue they also own. The "360" management model is pretty much the music industry now.

The local venue partnership deal is interesting. I wonder how bad the money situation is right now.

I haven't been to a Tower show in a while so I cannot recall. However, I was recently at a Criterion show and the bar prices were just insane, which I recall being normal but it was now littered with printed signs saying '4% added to all card transactions due to merchant fees'. Just an FYI the cheapest alcohol available at the bar was $11. Which got you either a 16oz Coors Light or a 12oz Whiteclaw.

It is a wild time with music venues struggling from the covid punch, and fans struggling from *everything* cost. But the price increases in tickets and alcohol is only forcing fans to skip shows, sneak in alcohol, or pre game the event for minimal bar interaction.

Agreed, they're cutting their own legs off trying to keep their arms on. It's a spiral that will not end well for the venues.

Also, kind of strange to question the concept of a promoter booking shows at venues they own / operate. That's always happened and with Live Nation's dominance, pretty much how it always works these days. Bill Graham was doing that in the 60s AND they managed some of those bands. So then you have a promoter booking a band they also manage into a venue they also own. The "360" management model is pretty much the music industry now.

When I lived in L.A., I actually interviewed for a senior position in IT at Ticketmaster which later became part of Live Nation.

Even though these ticket/promotion companies are often vilified for charging crazy add-on fees (and rightfully so) they have/had a brilliant and highly profitable business model.

They basically gave the venues a big chunk of money upfront in exchange for the exclusive right to book and promote their events. So, they'd write a check to places like the Paycom Center (often in the millions), lock down long-term exclusive rights, and then charge those annoying fees that added up to many multiples of their original outlay.

That was the genesis of this almost totally vertically integrated model used today.


As a side note, at that time (late '90s) the culture at Ticketmaster was notoriously terrible, and their employees worked very long hours and were not treated well. It was a vibe that came through even when they were recruiting you, so I passed and never regretted it.

When I lived in L.A., I actually interviewed for a senior position in IT at Ticketmaster which later became part of Live Nation.

Even though these ticket/promotion companies are often vilified for charging crazy add-on fees (and rightfully so) they have/had a brilliant and highly profitable business model.

They basically gave the venues a big chunk of money upfront in exchange for the exclusive right to book and promote their events. So, they'd write a check to places like the Paycom Center (often in the millions), lock down long-term exclusive rights, and then charge those annoying fees that added up to many multiples of their original outlay.

That was the genesis of this almost totally vertically integrated model used today.


As a side note, at that time (late '90s) the culture at Ticketmaster was notoriously terrible, and their employees worked very long hours and were not treated well. It was a vibe that came through even when they were recruiting you, so I passed and never regretted it.

As much as Live Nation and Ticket Master are vilified, I'd kill for an amphitheater in OKC operated by Live Nation. They get all the big summer tours, and 80% of them bypass OKC. The Zoo Amp is great for what it is, but it is too small to get the big tours to come in.

As much as Live Nation and Ticket Master are vilified, I'd kill for an amphitheater in OKC operated by Live Nation. They get all the big summer tours, and 80% of them bypass OKC. The Zoo Amp is great for what it is, but it is too small to get the big tours to come in.

And this is a big part of their success: a near monopoly on the best venues and acts.

If you think about it, what they did was incredibly shrewd: Mr. venue operator, we'll write you a big check on the spot and make all our money on surcharges paid by the concert-goer. You can just take that big free money and never be charged another dime.

Some of the larger venues insisted on getting a slice of the fees but it was really Tickemaster/Live Nation that was making a fortune from this arrangement.

I think there used to be some laws in some states to prevent some of the integration and (possible) conflict of interest we see to day. But like pretty much all antitrust statutes, they've been gutted, ignored, or not enforced for decades to the point where I am sure most don't understand why they existed in the first place, if they've even heard of them.

I was under the impression that LN owns some venues, too, but I could be wrong about that. It may just all be exclusive rights deals. But if they do own some, I doubt the fees are any better at those venues. lol

I just came from watching Molchat Doma live at the Tower. Maybe they have a more sizeable fan base than I realized, but I really had a hard time imagining Oklahoma City coming out in full force to support Belarusian post-punk. Man was I surprised. The house was near capacity and you could tell that most the crowd were not there for mere curiosity. Fantastic mix of ages and demographics. I usually have to travel outside of OKC to see the shows I want to see, so to say this was encouraging is an understatement. And they put on a monster of a show.

From my experience going to a lot of shows across a wide range of genres, OKC is very good about supporting heavier genres (metal, punk, noise rock, hardcore) and also red dirt/alt-country. Everything else is a huge crapshoot in terms of attendance. Also, there are some extremely good local bands that struggle mightily to get consistently good turnout at their shows, but then again I’m pretty sure that‘s not an OKC-specific thing.