"Just another example of how America, or the modern world, imposes its own view of Jesus and Christianity.

Lifechurch.tv is just one example of this. Its run as a coporation, intent on getting the most membership as possible. Where does Jesus do that? How does Jesus compare to the strategies, example, method that Lifechurch.tv portrays?"

KMF563, I wasn't doting on how LC talks about Heaven and Hell here, I was talking about how they do Church THEIR way, not the Biblical, or Christ centered way.

And I'm guessing by the Biblical or Christ centered way you mean YOUR way or the way YOUR church does it??? I can handle topical debate, inquiry, and or respectful disagreement...but I refuse to argue with straight forward bashing and disrespect. No body is trying to recruit you...if you don't like our church, don't come. period. But don't try to tell us how to operate it or even condemn us for going and tell us we are doing things wrong and not by the Bible. It's not your place to judge. And what exactly are you hinting on about America?? I'm confused.

I guess you are really blind to the facts here.

In one of your previous posts, you said that Jesus Himself operated in a way similar to Lifechurch.tv in the way that He lived His life and taught. I'm asking you to defend it.

You will not defend it, you have not defended it using scripture. Instead, you only use ad hominem arguments and get very defensive because we don't see eye to eye.

Can't you see that trying to get as many people into the pews is not Christ like, that living in multi-hundreds of dollars house like Craig does is not Christ like. That quoting "satan" to try and villify anyone who does not agree with your church is un Christ like.

Jesus commanded His disciples to judge by the same standards that they were judged. Paul also was very straight forward in the ways He chastised the other churches around the globe who did not get it the way Jesus had intended it. So why is it wrong for fellow followers of Jesus, who want to see purity and holiness in the Church, to do what they can to make sure that non-believers and young believers get the picture??

The "American" way of doing things is very much like Lifechurch.tv. They see success as how many "satellites" or "other campuses" they can create. They see success by how many people they get into the pews. They are insistant about putting the "Lifechurch.tv" name on everything they do, selling their "stock" and pushing their "brand name" all over purses, backpacks, t-shirts, coffee mugs, bumper stickers, and advertisement billboards. They are trying to be the "un-church" by putting up advertisements that say "hate church? so did we" as if to infer that by hating church, you can love G-d also? Doesn't Scripture say that if you "love me, feed my sheep"? Doesn't Paul command us to "forsake not the fellowship of the brethren".

This is why Lifechurch.tv doesn't get it. They are so afraid of turning people away of their church that they play grand-standing music you hear on the radio with lights and fog machines like its a concert, they water down the gospel with what they preach about the costs of following Jesus and about the total denial of worldly things, and the entire "church" is based upon ONE man, instead of the ONE Jesus.

Now that may sound like disrespect, but I'd ask you to peel back the scales on your eyes and look at it Biblically.

Craig living in a multi hundred thousand dollar house?? You obviously didn't read Patrick's or jbrown's post in the Joel Osteen thread. He isn't a lifechurch supporter and he even commented on how surprisingly modest he lives compared to most pastors of smaller churches. They went on to talk about how much other local pastors houses were worth, including much smaller churches. And on top of them living below their means, they have 6 kids!! I think that's being biblical. NW Baptist's pastor lived in a house around 250K and that church is around 1000 people. Take that to Craig's house which was worth less, smaller, and has 6 kids and that is a church of 20,000+.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown84
Craig and his family did, however, live in a much smaller home for his first 10 years as pastor.

Smaller than most pastors with a church his size. I wondered for years when he was going to move to a house more suitable.......and he uses his house to reach people in his community, so I don't look down on him at all.

Call me crazy, but most smaller churches I know also mention their pastor more than any other member or leader of their church. lifechurch.tv is not based on Craig and would stand just as much as if he wasn't there. Craig get's mentioned alot because he's our senior pastor, just like other senior pastors do of any size church!

lifechurch.tv afraid of turning people away of our church by being offensive and biblical? You obviously haven't attended service here. We offend people regularly by being biblical and teaching God honored principles that often make people think about what it really means to be a Christian and to live like it.

southokie -

"In one of your previous posts, you said that Jesus Himself operated in a way similar to Lifechurch.tv in the way that He lived His life and taught. I'm asking you to defend it." -

If you are talking to me...I never said that - If I had, I'm sure you would have quoted me. And you are right...I do see it as disrespect, you are disrespectful.

Have you ever been to Craig's house?? How do you know how much it costs. You are wrong.

Again...if you don't like LC then don't come. Find whatever church fits your beliefs and go. And further more...feel free to leave America also if you aren't comfortable with the way things are done here. Nobody is making you stay.

Actually metro, Patrick and I were discussing our pastor, Craig Etheredge.

Ok well I must have misinterpreted. The pastor of NW Baptist was mentioned however so it may have not been clarified. Also Crossroads Cathedral's pastor and a few others were mentioned. All smaller churches than lifechurch.tv but all pastors had much more expensive houses. Craig and other lifechurh pastors practice what they preach.

Craig and other lifechurh pastors practice what they preach.
How do we know since their homes are mysteriously absent from tax rolls?

I've attended several services at Lifechurch.tv, I was even a member years ago when it transitioned from Lifechurch Covenant to Lifechurch. Those were the days before Craig was a megalomaniac.

And yes, for a preacher to live in a multi-hundred thousand dollar home is un-Biblical. Jesus Himself said He had nowhere to lay his head to rest. Each of His Apostles left their homes and travelled spreading the Gospel, til each one of them met their martyrdom. How is it that we can continue to justify greed and money and wealth and cars and vacations and clothing that's paid with by tithing?? How is that Biblical?


And on the big screen, at each campus, whose sermons are overwhelming broadcast?? is it one man, or many men??

And if Lifechurch.tv is "one church, different campuses" then what is the tie that binds besides the name?? Its the pastor.

You are ignorant if you don't see the fact that Craig Groeschel is the tie that binds all the "many different campuses, yet one church" atmosphere at Lifechurch.tv. It is HIS baby. I've heard him say, YES IN PERSON CAUSE I USED TO BE A MEMBER THERE, that HIS vision was to put a Lifechurch.tv in every major city in the US.

Not that they would bring more people to Christ, not that they would teach more people the Gospel of Jesus, NO, that their vision was to bring LIFECHURCH.TV to everyone in the US.

Just look at his books... are they "get to know Jesus better and become a more committed follower of Christ"??? NO... His books are titled "Chazone, a different way to see your life..." "we were each born with our own Chazone (vision, dream), do you know what yours is??

they are listed in the Christian Psychology self help section... just go to Amazon.com and see for yourself. Craig Groeschel, the title of the book is "Chazone" under the "copyright" section of each book, it says "4. Self-actualization, (psychology) religious aspects, Christianity".

His book entitled "Confessions of a Pastor"... under the "copyright" tab, again where they list where they would classify the book it says "biography".

Craig is a megalomaniac.

He broadcasts HIS philosophy of Church, HIS vision of Lifechurch.tv across many different campuses, but HE still claims to be the pastor of each of them.

Does this look familiar to anybody?

SatanHatesCedarCreek.com (http://www.cedarcreek.tv/satan/locations.htm)

Evidently Satan is busy these days hating the big churches who can advertise for him.

How do we know since their homes are mysteriously absent from tax rolls?

Have you checked Logan County or other county's tax records? I know Craig doesn't live in Oklahoma County.

Does this look familiar to anybody?

SatanHatesCedarCreek.com (http://www.cedarcreek.tv/satan/locations.htm)

Evidently Satan is busy these days hating the big churches who can advertise for him.

Yep, if you read the churches blog, you'll see that several churches across the US have requested permission to use the campaign, FREE of charge of course. Just like all of lifechurch's materials are FREE on Lifechurch's OPEN section of the website. If it was so self centered, we wouldn't give free resources. Most megachurches charge BIG for it. We don't charge other churches/ministries to use the resources we're blessed with having.

See…Satan doesn’t just hate LifeChurch.tv at LifeChurch.tv : swerve (http://swerve.lifechurch.tv/2007/04/04/seesatan-doesnt-just-hate-lifechurchtv/)

And Southokie, although we can agree to disagree, I have to disagree with you on several issues. I've attended for almost 9 years, well over before it was a big church, and never once have I heard anyone say the goal of the church was to put a church in every major US City. The Mission of the church has always been: TO LEAD PEOPLE TO BECOME FULLY DEVOTED FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST, TO BRING IN, BUILD UP, TRAIN, AND SEND OUT. I have personally experienced this mission in countless lives including my own. I'm sorry to hear you experienced it differently. The church isn't for everybody, just like any other church. Obviously, as we've said before the real issue that keeps being debated is Fundamentalism vs. Evangelism.

Considering their modern style of worship, I think it's kind of funny that one of LifeChurch's slogans is "God is Good all the Time"--which is a super cheesy early nineties worship song.

Have you checked Logan County or other county's tax records? I know Craig doesn't live in Oklahoma County.
Yes. And we've covered this before much earlier in this thread. Neither Craig or any of the senior pastors' homes can be found on any metro area tax rolls.

The Mission of the church has always been: TO LEAD PEOPLE TO BECOME FULLY DEVOTED FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST, TO BRING IN, BUILD UP, TRAIN, AND SEND OUT. .


Hmm, sounds kind of like an army.

Yeah that does sound kind of scary there metro...Especially all in caps...Think it sounds similar to the mission of Muslim extremist schools...Sure that's not it at all, but maybe the mission statement should be toned down or without the train and devoted parts...Like bandnerd said it sounds like basic training instead of church services

Does this look familiar to anybody?

SatanHatesCedarCreek.com (http://www.cedarcreek.tv/satan/locations.htm)

Evidently Satan is busy these days hating the big churches who can advertise for him.

THAT is not a good thing.

And the comment of (paraphrase) "If you don't like America then just leave... no body is making you stay"

America has faults that are too numerous to count. Greed, Pride, Self-indulgence... and that is simply the broad categories. SouthOkie is not the only Christian to point out the dangers and evils of the Church in America becoming more like the American society. Go stroll through the Corinthians and you could easily substitute America for every reference to the word Corinthian.

Heck, American might be closer to Sodom and Gomorrah than the Corinthians. To deny that America is full of sin is to be in denial. To deny that many of America's virtues are evil is to be blind and possibly an ostrich.

Ex. The American Dream is as contrary to The New Testament as Herod was to John the Baptist. America celebrates its Greed and Self-Indulgence as virtues.

From there, it is quite literally dangerous for Christians to ignore the Apostolic charge of "salt and light", "do not be conformed", etc. and to embarrass and incorporate the American lifestyle into the policies and procedures of Christian community and life. That goes to the heart of why some Christians shutter at the idea of Church-Marketing, Church-Branding, Church-Franchising, etc.

Again, if you want to defend either "Church-Marketing", "Church-branding" or "Church-franchising" please give me a scriptural starting place for this. I'll even open up the Old Testament ... you can use the entire bible for your search.

And for the LifeChurch.tv members that can't stand all the criticism on this thread... you go to a church that prides itself on being confrontational and controversial. How is it that you can be honestly surprised when people are confrontational and critical of your communities methods. What's the old adage? What's good for the goose is good for the gander? Something like that. And yes, I've said this exact thing to friends, co-workers and family members that attend LifeChurch.tv So I'm not hiding behind the innerweb or cyber curtain.

- - -

Disclaimer, as a Christian, I love all expressions of the body of Christ. So do not confuse my questions and concerns as "hate", "bashing", "uninformed", or some such other word. I am legitimately interested in understanding some of the rationales and thoughts behind some of the things we're discussing.

And for the LifeChurch.tv members that can't stand all the criticism on this thread... you go to a church that prides itself on being confrontational and controversial. How is it that you can be honestly surprised when people are confrontational and critical of your communities methods.

Exactly.

And Southokie, ... Obviously, as we've said before the real issue that keeps being debated is Fundamentalism vs. Evangelism.


What makes you think that everyone that disagrees with LifeChurch.tv is a fundamentalist-Christian as opposed to an evangelical?

I've already stated that I am not at all a fundamentalist... I'm probably as evangelical as they come. Perhaps its time to try another defense... like posting some scripture for a biblical foundation of Church Franchising, or Church-Marketing.

And don't say its a relevance issue. If we wanted to be relevant we'd allow people to go to church online and not force them to develop a community at all. Oh wait

What makes you think that everyone that disagrees with LifeChurch.tv is a fundamentalist-Christian as opposed to an evangelical?

I've already stated that I am not at all a fundamentalist... I'm probably as evangelical as they come. Perhaps its time to try another defense... like posting some scripture for a biblical foundation of Church Franchising, or Church-Marketing.

And don't say its a relevance issue. If we wanted to be relevant we'd allow people to go to church online and not force them to develop a community at all. Oh wait

oh snap.

And Southokie, although we can agree to disagree, I have to disagree with you on several issues. I've attended for almost 9 years, well over before it was a big church, and never once have I heard anyone say the goal of the church was to put a church in every major US City. The Mission of the church has always been: TO LEAD PEOPLE TO BECOME FULLY DEVOTED FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST, TO BRING IN, BUILD UP, TRAIN, AND SEND OUT. I have personally experienced this mission in countless lives including my own. I'm sorry to hear you experienced it differently. The church isn't for everybody, just like any other church. Obviously, as we've said before the real issue that keeps being debated is Fundamentalism vs. Evangelism.

This is so typical...

Your argument is completely classic straw man.

THis is NOT about evangelism vs fundamentalism... you WISH it was. You are trying to MAKE it about that. LIFECHRUCH.TV has brainwashed you into thinking that it IS about fundamentalism vs evangelism...

That's the problem with you LIFECHURCH'ers. You are so arrogant and self-enthralled that you truly believe that every other church does it wrong, and you are the only ones doing it right. You paint anyone who disagrees with you to be on the same side as "satan" because he hates lifechurch too.

You pat yourselves on the back and say "see, look what we've done!!! WE'VE brought people to the Lord. WE'VE done it the right way. WE'VE been the ones who are evangelists. WE are the ones who have figured it out. just count all the people, count all the campuses, check out all the web traffic."

It sickens the Lord.

That's not what its about. Its not about numbers. Its not about how many "church" campuses you have. Its certainly, and most importantly not about YOU. That is the one thing this IS about. THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU.

IT's supposed to be about Jesus, but He is significantly absent from everything you do. Yes, Craig may talk the talk from time to time on the pulpit, but for the most part, what's the old saying, ACTIONS speak louder than words??!!

You put Lifchurch's logo on everything you sell at your church, and don't kid yourself honey, you don't corner the market on the whole "satan hates so and so church". It really doesn't make you Ghandi to not charge for that.

But in conclusion, Don't kid yourself by easily calling everyone here a "fundamentalists" because we follow the teachings in the Scripture, the words of the Apostles themselves, because we believe that the early Church had it the right way, and your Americanized glamorized broadwayized corporate sloganized wal-mart way of doing things has missed the point entirely.

Just to throw a little gas on the fire:

I look at churches an their charitable works. A church that spent 40 million on new megachurches last year but only 10,000 on charitable works has it's heart in very much the wrong place.

On that subject....Looks like a bill designed to make churches more transparent got trounced in Massachusetts last year under the concern of separation of church and state
Umm...Yeah...Ok

Reason for anger

By Adrian Walker, Globe Columnist | January 26, 2006

Disappointment mixed with fury in Senator Marian Walsh's voice yesterday after it became obvious that her bill calling for financial disclosure by churches was well on its way to being crushed.

It was artful, really, the way the opponents of the bill had orchestrated their efforts and convinced nearly everyone that the vote remained close, the better to keep their supporters united and energized.

''This is our process; I accept that," said Walsh, a West Roxbury Democrat. ''But we have a lot of public charities that are accountable to no one."

Not long ago, the clergy sexual abuse scandal was widely believed to have severely diluted the influence wielded on Beacon Hill by the Catholic Archdiocese of Boston.

Yesterday, that theory was forcefully consigned to the recycle bin.

Walsh said she believed her bill had more than 100 votes in November. That may be hard to believe, considering that it went down in flames 147 to 3. That was three votes for a bill that had 39 cosponsors.

''I never saw the religious community so ecumenical," Walsh noted. ''I wish they were this united on fighting for the rights of children."

The bill would have required religious institutions to release the same financial information that other nonprofits do, as well as annual audited financial statements from large groups.

While the measure was clearly aimed at the Catholic Church in response to the financial turmoil that followed the abuse scandal, a spectrum of religious groups banded together to shoot down the bill, mostly with a legally dubious assertion that such disclosure would violate the separation of church and state.

Thomas P. O'Neill III, the former lieutenant governor, was among those who thought the measure had a chance of healing some of the lingering wounds from the scandal. To him it was an issue of transparency.

''I'm for it because I think it would create some open air for the Archdiocese of Boston and other churches to show people how they collect money, spend money, and use it for their mission," he said yesterday. ''I think showing transparency could help them raise money."

But transparency was just the issue; the churches don't want transparency, and they don't want to establish the precedent that government can require them to do anything. They have no intention of living in the same world as the rest of us, scandal notwithstanding.

''Churches are probably the most powerful institutions in the state, and the sacred cow is money," Walsh said. ''They seem to want all the privilege and support of the public, and they don't want any of the responsibility."

The Archdiocese of Boston was far from alone in waging this battle. The Black Ministerial Alliance, among other groups, weighed in heavily against the bill, with no prodding from outside, according to its director.

''Senator Walsh said people don't understand the bill and its intent," said Harold Sparrow, executive director of the group. ''I find that patronizing. We understand the bill; we just don't agree with it. They try to say churches are charities. We are not a charity. It's an aspect of what we do, but not the whole game."

Obviously, the idea of financial disclosure is dead for the foreseeable future. Walsh said she would like to see religious organizations put forth their own proposal for improved transparency, but that's little more than a fantasy.

It was suggested yesterday that Walsh remains angry about the abuse scandal. She should, and she would have a lot of company in that regard. The implication that the two issues are related is absolutely true; a lack of openness allowed abuse for decades. And the archdiocese still opposes openness, at least on any terms it doesn't get to dictate. As for the Legislature, it took the path of least resistance, which shouldn't surprise anyone.

''I'm happy that we have tried," Walsh said. ''People don't agree with me, but I have the peace of mind that I made the effort."

Found this on the LA Times website:

In Second Life, nobody knows you're a lapsed Catholic
Virtual houses of worship await you in the online universe. Can that emu sing a hymn in tune?
By Stephanie Simon
Times Staff Writer

April 8, 2007

If all goes well, the naked lady won't show up this morning when Pastor Craig Groeschel preaches his Easter service. But several cats will probably drop in. A horned dragon might perch on the crimson seats. There could even, perhaps, be an emu strolling in.

Groeschel will deliver his sermon in an Oklahoma City church. It will also be streamed over the Internet to the virtual world called Second Life — a world populated by 5 million pixilated characters of every description.

In this three-dimensional metaverse — a vivid, ever-changing universe created by gamers — characters can buy virtual clothes from real-world manufacturers, hold virtual rallies for flesh-and-blood politicians, and now, increasingly, worship in sync with the congregations in bricks-and-mortar churches.

The fast-growing world of Second Life has developed a rich spiritual dimension in the last year, welcoming congregations of Buddhists, Jews, Muslims and numerous Christian denominations.

Groeschel's evangelical LifeChurch.tv is the latest entrant, and today will broadcast a live Easter service in its entirety. Gamers who teleport their Second Life characters (known as avatars) to the church's virtual campus can use mouse clicks to manipulate their alter egos into kneeling, swaying or raising palms to the heavens as Groeschel's fast-paced, MTV-style sermon flickers across the computer screen.

Skeptics suggest that believers could find more enriching ways to spend Easter Sunday than tapping out commands to make animated emus pray.

"It's like online sex — it's satisfying in a weird way, I suppose … but the real thing is so much better, why would you want to waste your time on it?" asked Francis Maier, chancellor of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Denver and an avid video gamer.

Some Second Lifers also find the idea of virtual worship odd: They would rather spend their online time flying, shopping for risque clothes, chasing gorgeous blonds or engaging in other activities they would never attempt in a world marred by gravity and cellulite.

"SL is supposed to be an escape from real life, not a cartoon version of real life," said the avatar Pixeleen Mistral, managing editor of the virtual world's newspaper, the Second Life Herald.

Then again, it's not all escapism: There are Al-Anon meetings in Second Life, and dances and bingo games — and every manner of mundane daily activity, except perhaps the bathroom pit stop. While worship services may be a bit stilted online, veteran gamers say they can be surprisingly fulfilling. Communities as varied as Hare Krishna, Quaker and Mormon meet weekly for discussions, lectures, live streaming music and text-messaged prayer.

"It's obviously important for a small but significant number," said Yunus Yakoub, who's researching a doctoral dissertation on the religious dimensions of Second Life. Yakoub said he hears from several dozen avatars a week looking for information on virtual congregations.

Perhaps because all interactions are anonymous, conducted from behind facades, gamers say the spiritual conversations in Second Life tend to be more intimate and meaningful than the good-sermon-nice-weather exchanges that pass for conversation in real-world pews.

"We definitely feel the presence of the Holy Spirit there in Second Life," said Larry Transue, who runs the virtual Northbound Community Church, which is a ministry of the very real church of the same name, located in Thousand Oaks.

Transue does not view the virtual church as a substitute for the real thing. (That's why he's not hosting an Easter service today.) But he believes it can be an important supplement. And he hopes it can be a tool of evangelism, introducing nonbelievers — through their avatars — to the principles of faith.

New Jersey resident Nathan Schmalbach has been proselytizing on the virtual LifeChurch.tv campus since it opened for a test run a few weeks ago. Wandering through the online world, Schmalbach recently met an avatar who proclaimed his only faith was in evolution.

"We talked with him for a long time," Schmalbach said. "We really didn't get very far" — but they did set up another appointment to meet. "Maybe we'll get him to a new perspective."

LifeChurch, founded in 1996 as an edgy, youth-oriented congregation, tacked .tv onto its name to refer to its website. As the church expanded, it built satellite campuses across Oklahoma and also in Arizona, Texas, Tennessee and Florida. Most Sundays, congregations in those far-flung locations gather in school auditoriums and watch a broadcast of the service.

Gamers who visit the Second Life campus will feel as though they're in one of those satellite sanctuaries. They will have their avatars take a seat in the auditorium and watch a live video feed of the service on large screens at the front of the virtual room.

The online setup cost the church between $5,000 and $10,000 in programming and other expenses, according to Bobby Gruenewald, another pastor at LifeChurch.

Gruenewald has not been able to track the total number of visitors to LifeChurch's virtual campus, which is on Experience Island. But a snapshot of traffic Monday showed 3,912 avatars teleported to the church — considerably more than visited MTV's virtual Laguna Beach or Toyota's Scion City. (Of course, that same day, 8,693 avatars visited a coffee shop built to look like the set of Showtime's racy TV series "The L Word.")

The Easter service this morning will be an experiment — and it carries some risks. "Griefers," or online vandals, have been known to disrupt church activities by manipulating their characters to streak nude through a chapel or belch loudly during meditation. There's also a danger that nonbelievers posing as Christians could engage visitors in text-messaged conversation and teach them false theology.

But in the end, Gruenewald expects great benefits when cats, emus and impossibly buff surfer dudes gather together to celebrate Easter. "This is definitely a messy frontier," he said.

"We certainly don't think we have everything figured out. But we're anxious to see what God's going to do with it."

In Second Life, nobody knows you're a lapsed Catholic - Los Angeles Times (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-virtual8apr08,0,5161696.story?coll=la-home-headlines)

I pointed out the following notable quote when I posted (http://www.okctalk.com/web-building-tech-talk/9359-www-secondlife-com.html#post92589) about this very same article in the www.secondlife.com (http://www.okctalk.com/web-building-tech-talk/9359-www-secondlife-com.html) thread...



Skeptics suggest that believers could find more enriching ways to spend Easter Sunday than tapping out commands to make animated emus pray.

"It's like online sex — it's satisfying in a weird way, I suppose … but the real thing is so much better, why would you want to waste your time on it?" asked Francis Maier, chancellor of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Denver and an avid video gamer.

It's like the sims2 on religious crack. I read about this in the Oklahoman. The idea bothers me.

I mean, why don't you go and actually MEET people in PERSON. But that's just me, I guess.

PUGalious and bandnerd, I totally agree with you and people on secondlife further and further continue to distance themselves from the real world, and especially will in years to come as metaverses evolve. But the reality is, people do and will continue to live out their lives in secondlife. This is just merely a tool to reach these people that otherwise wouldn't go to church in real life. The goal is to hopefully get these people plugged into a real life church through secondlife, but you have to start somewhere. Obviously it's not for people like you or I and that's great, but its for the people who are WAYYYYYYY into stuff like this, they're the ones that really get it. I can't tell you how many avatars (people) I've talked to on there from all over the world and have been looking for a real life church but have been shunned, scared, hurt, or would normally never attend a church in real life, but through secondlife, they're more open and honest, because they can "hide" behind their screen and be more honest and open. I know it's my prayer and most people at our church, that these people will enter into real relationships with people, Christians, and a local church somewhere.

PUGalious and bandnerd, I totally agree with you and people on secondlife further and further continue to distance themselves from the real world, and especially will in years to come as metaverses evolve. But the reality is, people do and will continue to live out their lives in secondlife. This is just merely a tool to reach these people that otherwise wouldn't go to church in real life. The goal is to hopefully get these people plugged into a real life church through secondlife, but you have to start somewhere. Obviously it's not for people like you or I and that's great, but its for the people who are WAYYYYYYY into stuff like this, they're the ones that really get it. I can't tell you how many avatars (people) I've talked to on there from all over the world and have been looking for a real life church but have been shunned, scared, hurt, or would normally never attend a church in real life, but through secondlife, they're more open and honest, because they can "hide" behind their screen and be more honest and open. I know it's my prayer and most people at our church, that these people will enter into real relationships with people, Christians, and a local church somewhere.


To say "this is just merely a tool to reach (secondlifer's)" in order to "reach these people and get them plugged into a real life church" is like saying "we are just trying to give heroine to addicts in order to start somewhere.

metro, I just think you're coming really close to encouraging staying in this world by taking it this far. If you offer church in secondlife, why would these people be convinced to leave it (their comfort zone) for the real world church, where we get community and fellowship--two very key components of the New Testament church that you say Lifechurch emulates better than any church you know.

then perhaps you should personally create a secondlife account, talk to these seekers and then make an informed decision. I have personally talked to others that have got the answers they were looking for on secondlife so they can apply them in real life and eventually get plugged in a real life church. of course however, you continually look for the wrong in everything instead of seeing the potential it has.

Perhaps I'm wrong. I'm just expressing a concern. This generation is getting closer and closer to living in the Matrix, and further and further from any real community with people. We text instead of call, we instant message instead of meeting people for coffee.

Perhaps I'm wrong. I'm just expressing a concern. This generation is getting closer and closer to living in the Matrix, and further and further from any real community with people. We text instead of call, we instant message instead of meeting people for coffee.

I haven't posted much in this thread, but Jason, you are so right about this. It's almost scary when you realize how much time people spend online versus people getting together. So, when's coffee? It's on me.

-------------------------

Back to the billboards, one can be seen while driving south on I-35 in between 59th and the I-240 junction. I think.

then perhaps you should personally create a secondlife account, talk to these seekers and then make an informed decision. I have personally talked to others that have got the answers they were looking for on secondlife so they can apply them in real life and eventually get plugged in a real life church. of course however, you continually look for the wrong in everything instead of seeing the potential it has.
If potential is the measure, imagine the potential if your church were to offer free needles, smack or pot... just think of all the new people that could be reached that wouldn't come otherwise...

The question remains, when do the costs (including the cost of compromise) outweigh the benefits?

What I find interesting is that all these "evangelism tools" that churches like LifeChurch involves misses a very key component to effective and lasting evangelism — relationship. Members can say that their church is doing this and doing that (like having an online church experience on a virtual -- as in NOT REAL -- world) and they feel less of a responsibility to personally get involved in the lives of those around them, demonstrating Christ in their own lives that draws the seekers into asking them questions rather than letting artificial means give the answers. God is a very personal God, not a virtual God. Unbelievers have enough trouble believing in an unseen God, how much more than when they are being evangelized in a virtual -- as in NOT REAL -- world.

Just because something has potential doesn't automatically make it a good thing... or even a God thing.

On that note, I'll pop on over to Second Life: Your World. Your Imagination. (http://www.secondlife.com) now and "experience" the virtual LifeChurch.tv service so that I don't have to change out of my pajamas and leave the confines of my living room to go to my real church... with real people... and with real accountability...

If potential is the measure, imagine the potential if your church were to offer free needles, smack or pot... just think of all the new people that could be reached that wouldn't come otherwise...

The question remains, when do the costs (including the cost of compromise) outweigh the benefits?

What I find interesting is that all these "evangelism tools" that churches like LifeChurch involves misses a very key component to effective and lasting evangelism — relationship. Members can say that their church is doing this and doing that (like having an online church experience on a virtual -- as in NOT REAL -- world) and they feel less of a responsibility to personally get involved in the lives of those around them, demonstrating Christ in their own lives that draws the seekers into asking them questions rather than letting artificial means give the answers. God is a very personal God, not a virtual God. Unbelievers have enough trouble believing in an unseen God, how much more than when they are being evangelized in a virtual -- as in NOT REAL -- world.

Just because something has potential doesn't automatically make it a good thing... or even a God thing.

On that note, I'll pop on over to Second Life: Your World. Your Imagination. (http://www.secondlife.com) now and "experience" the virtual LifeChurch.tv service so that I don't have to change out of my pajamas and leave the confines of my living room to go to my real church... with real people... and with real accountability...


What are we talking about here people!!??

I mean, what IF one of these second lifer's found the illustrious "sword of a thousand truths" and actually made it to Mordor????

I mean, we'd all totally be screwed!

What I find interesting is that all these "evangelism tools" that churches like LifeChurch involves misses a very key component to effective and lasting evangelism — relationship.

ding ding ding!

I'm sure I'll get flamed as usual, but Lifechurch.tv just opened a new campus in Albany, New York.

For what it's worth, I'm sure that market could use something like a LifeChurch campus a lot more than Dallas or another section of OKC.

I drove by the new one on Expressway and Macarthur. I could not believe they had a store in the church.

I can only imagine what they sell in there. Pastor Craig keychains, coffee mugs, t-shirts, calendars, DVD's, antenna balls, bobblehead dolls, bumper stickers and every other gawdy thing you see in souviener shop. I wonder it they have a life size cardboard cutout of him in there?

Now there is a novel concept. Not only can you suck money out people's pocket through tithing, you can market the church just like a professional sports team.

What is next? The buy your way in to heaven program. I can see the TV commerical now. Announcer: "Just like the days prior to the reformation you can buy a place in heaven for only 200 monthly installments of 149.99."

I drove by the new one on Expressway and Macarthur. I could not believe they had a store in the church.

I can only imagine what they sell in there. Pastor Craig keychains, coffee mugs, t-shirts, calendars, DVD's, antenna balls, bobblehead dolls, bumper stickers and every other gawdy thing you see in souviener shop. I wonder it they have a life size cardboard cutout of him in there?

Now there is a novel concept. Not only can you suck money out people's pocket through tithing, you can market the church just like a professional sports team.

What is next? The buy your way in to heaven program. I can see the TV commerical now. Announcer: "Just like the days prior to the reformation you can buy a place in heaven for only 200 monthly installments of 149.99."

Maybe a joint venture with State Farm to offer that as a rider on life and long term care insurance...Think you are onto something Bacon!! :Smiley247

I drove by the new one on Expressway and Macarthur. I could not believe they had a store in the church.

I can only imagine what they sell in there. Pastor Craig keychains, coffee mugs, t-shirts, calendars, DVD's, antenna balls, bobblehead dolls, bumper stickers and every other gawdy thing you see in souviener shop. I wonder it they have a life size cardboard cutout of him in there?

Now there is a novel concept. Not only can you suck money out people's pocket through tithing, you can market the church just like a professional sports team.

What is next? The buy your way in to heaven program. I can see the TV commerical now. Announcer: "Just like the days prior to the reformation you can buy a place in heaven for only 200 monthly installments of 149.99."
I'm not apologist for Lifechurch and, in the interest of full disclosure, I am a former member. Having said that, you have completely mischaracterized the church store in a blatantly unfair way. I'm all for legitimate and fair criticism, but yours falls painfully short of rational, credible discourse.

I agree for the most part.

Indeed PUG, while others don't always see I to eye with me on lifechurch.tv, the judging was clearly unfair and off base. In fact, many churches including small churches today have a bookstore/coffeeshop, etc. Why is it a sin to charge at or below market value and give Christians and non-Christians tools (books, CD's, etc.) in a convenient way? Have you seen Mardel's and other places and how much they charge for things? If anything, you should be upset with that.

Indeed PUG, while others don't always see I to eye with me on lifechurch.tv, the judging was clearly unfair and off base. In fact, many churches including small churches today have a bookstore/coffeeshop, etc. Why is it a sin to charge at or below market value and give Christians and non-Christians tools (books, CD's, etc.) in a convenient way? Have you seen Mardel's and other places and how much they charge for things? If anything, you should be upset with that.


Not at all. David Green is one of the 400 top richest Americans.

I started going to LifeChurch 3 years ago after I began dating my boyfriend. I was raised a Lutheran and didn't attend church for many years after beginning college and thereafter. I didn't feel as if I had to beleive or worship inside a specific building to meet my emotional needs. Boy I was wrong. I love LifeChurch, its message, purpose and the people. I rarely miss and only do so if I go visit my family and attend the church where I grew up. Being Lutheran I had a hard time follwing the message and theology, but Craig has a way of making it relevant to today. I love it and do not plan on ever changing churches........ Thanks to Craig and all the others at Lifechurch. WHOEVER FINDS GOD, FINDS LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GOD IS GOOD ALL THE TIME, ALL THE TIME GOD IS GOOD.....

<----- [ducking out of the way of the anticipated flaming]

I'll sit back and eat my popcorn and watch all this nonesense arrive at some unintended but well meaning destination.

And to further aid in that fun-filled adventure, I have a question for the .tv's in the audience.

Why franchise? Why not package your church model and let other purchase it and then run with it?

Does LifeChurch.tv franchise so that Craig can control each and every churches operations? I can't think of another reason.

Exactly. Like I said, I think Albany probably can be reached in a very positive way by the LifeChurch model, but why not PLANT A CHURCH--help get it started with the same format and style of LifeChurch so that people can be reached the same way--then let it go on it's own?

Exactly. Like I said, I think Albany probably can be reached in a very positive way by the LifeChurch model, but why not PLANT A CHURCH--help get it started with the same format and style of LifeChurch so that people can be reached the same way--then let it go on it's own?

Ummm....Because then Life Church OKC couldn't reap the financial reward. Duh!

Izzouch!

I drove by the new one on Expressway and Macarthur. I could not believe they had a store in the church.

I can only imagine what they sell in there. Pastor Craig keychains, coffee mugs, t-shirts, calendars, DVD's, antenna balls, bobblehead dolls, bumper stickers and every other gawdy thing you see in souviener shop. I wonder it they have a life size cardboard cutout of him in there?

Now there is a novel concept. Not only can you suck money out people's pocket through tithing, you can market the church just like a professional sports team.

What is next? The buy your way in to heaven program. I can see the TV commerical now. Announcer: "Just like the days prior to the reformation you can buy a place in heaven for only 200 monthly installments of 149.99."


Okay for everyone who did not have a chuckle at this joke feel free to drive down to your favorite discount store and buy a sense of humor. In Wal-Mart there on Aisle 5.

Anyway.... My point is church is not a place to shop, buy coffee, cookies or pastries. It is not a place that rivals the ford center or a trendy Bricktown nightclub.

In my eyes the church is a holy sanctuary to hear the word of god through bible study and the sermon of a man or woman who has made it there mission to convey the word of god. The only thing he/she needs is a voice and a microphone. No powerpoint presentations, laserlight shows, fog, big screen TV's, nor a 12 piece band and ten girl chorus line.

Church should be a place where you focus your time on god and his word. It is not a place you go to be entertained.

That is just my opinion. I am not claiiming to be right or wrong. I was raised as a catholic and that is probably why I see church in that light.

Okay for everyone who did not have a chuckle at this joke feel free to drive down to your favorite discount store and buy a sense of humor. In Wal-Mart there on Aisle 5.

Anyway.... My point is church is not a place to shop, buy coffee, cookies or pastries. It is not a place that rivals the ford center or a trendy Bricktown nightclub.

In my eyes the church is a holy sanctuary to hear the word of god through bible study and the sermon of a man or woman who has made it there mission to convey the word of god. The only thing he/she needs is a voice and a microphone. No powerpoint presentations, laserlight shows, fog, big screen TV's, nor a 12 piece band and ten girl chorus line.

Church should be a place where you focus your time on god and his word. It is not a place you go to be entertained.

That is just my opinion. I am not claiiming to be right or wrong. I was raised as a catholic and that is probably why I see church in that light.
I have a sense of humor. It just wasn't funny. Not even remotely.

While your underlying premise may have some valid points... and I might even agree to a degree that there seems to be an encroachment of merchants in the temple... the way you chose to present your point invalidated it on its face.

Ummm....Because then Life Church OKC couldn't reap the financial reward. Duh!

Actually Patrick and friends if you cared to take the time to know much about Lifechurch.tv you would know that it helps with tons of church plants each year (ones that it doesn't put lifechurch.tv name or reap any "financial rewards" that you speak of). I'll give you just two fairly local examples, I won't include all the missionary/mission trip plants we do overseas. Journey church in Norman and H20 church in Ada were "traditional church plants" that you speak of, not to mention countless others. Furthermore, the OPEN section of our website provides any church in the world free resources and media that we provide at no cost and reap no reward other than the fact of personal joy of providing others with tools so they can reach others for Jesus Christ. The church mails DVD's, training materials and resources, without those churches having to use the lifechurch.tv "brand" all free of charge.

So what is the difference between your church plants and your franchises? How do you decide that Journey Church is a plant instead of LifeChurch Norman, for example?

http://www.okctalk.com/gallery/data/500/mcd.JPG

http://www.okctalk.com/gallery/data/500/medium/wal.JPG

Then Tomorrow we take over the world....

http://www.able2uk.com/pinky_brain.gif

So what is the difference between your church plants and your franchises? How do you decide that Journey Church is a plant instead of LifeChurch Norman, for example?

This is basically the same question I've been asking for several pages now. Why not give it away instead of Franchise?

I'll continue to wait.

I would guess it came down to the campus leaders wanting to split off as opposed to staying part of the LC network.

I never said that Lifechurch wasn't involved in church planting. What I will say is that I wish they'd only do that, and skip the multi-campus approach.

It is true that when you franchise out a church, you hang onto the financial rewards from each franchise. If you just church plant, each planted church is its own entity, not under the Life Church financial umbrella.

That being said, I even question my own church (Northwest Baptist) for following Life Church's trend of multiple campuses. We have a "North campus" out on NW Expressway that meets in the Express Events Center. And, our home base reaps the financial rewards of tithes given by members at the "north campus," whereas if we just planted a new church in NW OKC it would be a separate entity, with its own finances, etc. I personally am opposed to our north campus, and would have preferred we spend money planting a new church in NW OKC, or helping out a nearby church like Highland Hills Baptist Church, which is located very close to our "north campus."

The difference is that Craig preaches at both campuses in person. And actually the North Campus is still very much benefiting from the financial resources of the Central Campus.

I still don't see where in the Bible it says it is a sin to combine and use resources for a greater good. Some call it franchising, others call it evangelism. Either way it benefits both entities and ultimately the Kingdom of God. Your main campus benefits from the tithes of the North NW Baptist campus and vice versa. They also both benefit from mutual resources so they can cut overhead and thus use the money for other things. Although all of Lifechurch.tv's 15 or so campuses (and I'm willing to bet your churches N. campus) has their own site staff, most of lifechurch.tv's employees are centrally located so all sites (including church plants or any other church in the world who wants to use the resources for free) can benefit them. Now take your perspective, if each lifechurch.tv campus, church plant, and sister churches were its own entity, they would probably have their own much larger staff and duplicating resources. What's wrong for streamlining churches and making them more efficient? Businesses do it all the time, not that I'm saying we should "commercialize" churches to a certain extent, but as long as it doesn't dilute the message, then I see nothing wrong with making an efficient organization. I'm open and willing to listen to the other side (most know I've been flamed regularly for it), but show me in the Bible where it is a sin to streamline and make an effective organization, etc.