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CMSturgeon 03-12-2007, 01:56 PM Wow, sorry for asking about the signs. lol. I don't think there is a need to analyze someone's marketing strategy so closely. Not to curse on a church thread, but I think some one here is just looking for something to bitch about.
jbrown84 03-12-2007, 03:34 PM The fact that metro brought this up on a discussion board opens the issue up to discussion, and I know he's smart enough to know that this is going to be controversial, as lifechurch seems to have a penchant for being.
I think it's a great church overall, but I'm not a fan of this marketing strategy for reasons I've already expressed.
CMSturgeon 03-12-2007, 04:10 PM Well put.
Spartan 03-14-2007, 04:37 PM There are two of these billboards along my commute. I 35 south between downtown and I 240.
I agree with the Boycotting LifeChurch.TV message. It just doesn't strike me as a real church.
I think that making people opposed to LiveChurch.TV into the devil himself is ludicrous.
kmf563 03-19-2007, 08:58 AM WOW! I have been on this messageboard for a bit now and am just coming across this thread. Where have I been????
I think it's great that the debate is so huge on here about Lifechurch. I've been attending the OKC campus for the last 3 years and I've heard it all. What I have learned though is that the important thing is that people are talking. It doesn't matter what is being said. HE is my only judge.
I have seen the billboards on the southside - they are real. They are between the I-40 and I-240 area. You can see them when you are heading south.
"God is good all the time.."
Martin 03-19-2007, 09:02 AM i saw one for myself this weekend on the west side of i-35 just north of se 66th... the ones on the site were fakes, though. not that it's a big deal in itself... just a big deal when someone such as metro tries to pass them off as the real thing. -M
metro 03-20-2007, 03:35 PM I was browsing around on the internet and noticed lifechurch.tv just launched a beta of it's second virtual campus. I don't think it's official and know it hasn't been announced yet at church, but as I mentioned I saw some blogs on it online and noticed it on the site Second Life: Your World. Your Imagination. (http://www.secondlife.com) . So lifechurch.tv has it's official internet campus, and now this beta secondlife.com campus. Amazing how God can be used in all corners of the world, including the cyber-world!! As many of you may know, this is where the internet is headed with "virtual reality" and virtual lifestyles, etc. I'm not too familiar with it, but thought it was interesting. I'm sure will be hearing more on this in the future.
mwmcl 03-20-2007, 03:58 PM mwmcl, to answer your questions accurately, I will provide a little more information than jdsplaypin. First off, Senior Pastor Craig Grochel still preaches at all the campuses through simulcast. Each Campus however has a Campus Pastor, Associate Campus Pastor, as well as a small paid staff and a large volunteer staff. The Campus Pastor usually starts off the service and prays at the end and greets visitors in the lobby, etc. When it is time for the teaching, the simulcast with Craig takes place.
To play devils advocate, the Bible also never talks about hymnals, robes, wearing a shirt and tie on Sunday, etc. In fact, many times does it mention that WE are the church, not a building or how we do things. You will find many examples in which Jesus went to the people and talked with them on their level and did life with them where they were at. In today's day in age, especially for a seeker or nonbeliever, entertainment is how you capture someone's attention. Just look at concerts, myspace, TV, youtube and how that has revolutionized American society. We are visual society. It just so happens that lifechurch realizes this is a modern way to reach a generation that otherwise probably wouldn't be going to church. The church is not so much about what many people on this website seem to get sooooooo upset about or against, the media is simply a beginning point, a tool, to reach people, the message is what changes peoples lives.
I hope you can check it out sometime.
On another note, any OKCTalker's helping launch the new NW OKC campus?
No need to argue... I've visited LifeChurch before and will likely not ever visit again if it stays in its current format. Opinions are opinions and mine are different than yours.
I do disagree fundamentally that you have to entertain people into going to church. Again, its a matter of opinion but I'm interested in churches that are very different than rock concerts. Because to be honest Christian music sucks in comparison to its contemporary counterparts.
I'll end with this... the new LifeChurch "Marketing" campaign is atrocious. The audacity to think that Satan would single out LifeChurch to hate. It's fairly to completely clear that Satan hates all churches. So in effect, LifeChurch's new "Marketing" campaign is consistent with saying that the Sky is Blue. It's worse than the "We Hate Church" campaign of a few years back.
It seems that everytime I want to give LifeChruch the benefit of the doubt... it goes and does something like this.
On Edit: Thanks to whomever included the link... I'll have to visit and 'Formally Complain', since they give that option.
metro 03-20-2007, 07:37 PM if you're upset about the satanhateslife campaign, you may be interested in reading the following blog from lifechurch.tv leadership as well as pastors and others around the world comments on the issue:
“trickery” at LifeChurch.tv : swerve (http://swerve.lifechurch.tv/2007/03/19/trickery/)
writerranger 03-20-2007, 07:59 PM I've never been excited about LifeChurch and the whole MegaChurch as a business for 'pastoral entrepreneurs.' And yes, I honestly believe it's all about the 'business.'
However, I have NEVER, in my life, seen a church stoop so low as to basically call its detractors tools of Satan ( SatanHatesLife.com (http://www.satanhateslife.com) ). It's just....actually I think it speaks for itself. A certain verse about sheep in wolves clothing comes to mind. But I have no plans to put that on any billboards. At least not yet.
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mwmcl 03-21-2007, 08:21 AM In the end I think that the BoycottLife.tv billboard is the accidental genius of the entire group of billboards.
metro 03-21-2007, 09:23 AM writeranger if you feel that way, I highly encourage you to check out the above blog link I posted. It was created by lifechurch.tv staff but has comments and replies from pastors and normal people from all over the world. life staff comments are notated in the shaded boxes in the comments section.
PUGalicious 03-21-2007, 10:39 AM writeranger if you feel that way, I highly encourage you to check out the above blog link I posted.
I found the staff's responses very unpersuasive.
mwmcl 03-21-2007, 10:40 AM I found the staff's responses very unpersuasive.
I completely agree
And on a side-note, I'd prefer a staff member of a church to respond to criticism of an obviously controversial billboard with more than sarcasm and passive-aggressive humor.
PUGalicious 03-21-2007, 12:17 PM I'd prefer a staff member of a church to respond to criticism of an obviously controversial billboard with more than sarcasm and passive-aggressive humor.
You noticed that too?
mwmcl 03-21-2007, 01:30 PM You noticed that too?
I noticed a lot of that and very little of actual addressing of questions
I don't hate LifeChurch... I just hate there recent markerting... and I hate marketing for Churches.
jbrown84 03-26-2007, 02:31 PM However, I have NEVER, in my life, seen a church stoop so low as to basically call its detractors tools of Satan ( SatanHatesLife.com (http://www.satanhateslife.com) ). It's just....actually I think it speaks for itself.
I wholeheartedly agree. Seems like their reputation for "edgyness" has gone to their heads.
metro 03-26-2007, 05:12 PM LifeReach | LifeChurch.tv (http://www.lifechurch.tv/forms/lifereach/)
Just wanted to remind everyone of life reach 07. It's similar to Sharefest only it's more than one day and the projects are ongoing.
Martin 03-26-2007, 05:20 PM pretty slick... though looking through the various opportunities, it appears that hardly anyone is volunteering for anything. -M
metro 03-26-2007, 09:15 PM mmm thanks. and FYI, the church just announced it yesterday so give it some time for volunteers to step up.
I also was just watching a preview for the 10 o'clock news on KOCO Channel 5 and they are going to do a story on all the controversy behind the SatanHatesLife.com billboards so all you fans or should I say anti-fans might want to check it out.
Martin 03-26-2007, 09:33 PM hope alot more people volunteer... i'd rather be proven wrong.
as for the billboard, i wouldn't say it's a controversy... i just think it's in poor taste. -M
Easy180 03-27-2007, 08:31 AM Guess I'm one of the people the billboards are designed to recruit...Annoys me more than anything...No interest in checking out the satan website
Put some Sooners on it and then maybe :ou2
Kind of cynical on the volunteer thing as well if that's at all possible....Part of me thinks it's to recruit more members since that seems to be the main goal of nearly everything they do...50% public service 50% membership drive...Evident since they just don't post these signup sheets in the campuses instead of promoting non church members to sign up
mwmcl 03-27-2007, 09:13 AM mmm thanks. and FYI, the church just announced it yesterday so give it some time for volunteers to step up.
I also was just watching a preview for the 10 o'clock news on KOCO Channel 5 and they are going to do a story on all the controversy behind the SatanHatesLife.com billboards so all you fans or should I say anti-fans might want to check it out.
I did watch and they basically said nothing of substance. Just a puff-piece of journalism that I've come to know and love from the local media.
jbrown84 03-27-2007, 10:36 AM Well I'm happy to say that my church gets a lot of media coverage without having to do anything controversial.
mwmcl 03-27-2007, 04:15 PM My church gets no media atention (good or bad)
jbrown84 03-27-2007, 04:17 PM My point being that LifeChurch's strategy is to be controversial to attract attention and potential new members. I would rather get new members because people hear about the good things my church does and the community that people have there.
Keith 03-27-2007, 05:15 PM My point being that LifeChurch's strategy is to be controversial to attract attention and potential new members. I would rather get new members because people hear about the good things my church does and the community that people have there.
Exactly. I could not have said it better myself.
CMSturgeon 03-27-2007, 05:48 PM I can't believe 16 pages later we're still discussing the same negative things about LifeChurch. This thread is on my annoying list right after the 3 Jim Inhofe ones that just recently surfaced. I can't believe you nay-sayers feel so passionately about what you think LifeChurch is doing wrong. My extent of knowledge on LifeChurch was that there's one next to Academy, now I know a bunch about it just because of you guys that are against it. I think I'm going to go join RIGHT NOW just to spite you.
:Smiley204
jbrown84 03-27-2007, 06:58 PM Feel free to join. I have said several times that I think it's a good church, but it's not for me for various reasons.
Patrick 03-27-2007, 07:05 PM I think I'm going to go join RIGHT NOW just to spite you.
:Smiley204
Now that's a good reason to go join a church isn't it?
PUGalicious 03-27-2007, 07:11 PM I can't believe 16 pages later we're still discussing the same negative things about LifeChurch. This thread is on my annoying list right after the 3 Jim Inhofe ones that just recently surfaced. I can't believe you nay-sayers feel so passionately about what you think LifeChurch is doing wrong. My extent of knowledge on LifeChurch was that there's one next to Academy, now I know a bunch about it just because of you guys that are against it. I think I'm going to go join RIGHT NOW just to spite you.
:Smiley204
I think I'm going to say something bad about LifeChurch just to see who else will join "just to spite" me.
Ummm... met me think... LifeChurch's shuttle carts aren't air-conditioned during the summer or heated during the winter and that's just plain unreasonable.
Any takers?
CMSturgeon 03-27-2007, 08:39 PM Yup, that was funny. But hey, whatever gets you into the church right? I guess I dont see problem with advertising as long as that is what its for, inviting more people into salvation. But not strictly to make more money, thats wrong if you're a church. FBC of Moore used to do all kinds of things to get people in. And I remember a church I went to would have pancake breakfasts open for anyone once a month and they got lots of members that way who were just looking for a free meal.
Patrick 03-27-2007, 09:42 PM Yup, that was funny. But hey, whatever gets you into the church right? I guess I dont see problem with advertising as long as that is what its for, inviting more people into salvation. But not strictly to make more money, thats wrong if you're a church. FBC of Moore used to do all kinds of things to get people in. And I remember a church I went to would have pancake breakfasts open for anyone once a month and they got lots of members that way who were just looking for a free meal.
I think the whole idea is to get more people in the building so they can hear the message of Christ. That's the whole mission of a church, right?
writerranger 03-27-2007, 10:51 PM I think the whole idea is to get more people in the building so they can hear the message of Christ. That's the whole mission of a church, right?
Yeah, it is today - at the expense of what the New Testament definition of a "church" is. From the Sermon on the Mount to the Letters to Timothy and the Corinthians, the Bible talks of service to those Christ called, "the least of these." I don't recall anything about the whole mission of a church being to get bodies inside a building.
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PUGalicious 03-28-2007, 05:29 AM :congrats: Well said, writerranger.
Martin 03-28-2007, 06:53 AM i'll second that... well said.
i don't have a problem with the fact that lc is trying to reach people... that's a great and noble thing. however, in order to attract more people, churches like lc compromise on the message in order to make it more popular with society. they focus on entertainment and pleasing people, rather than on pleasing god. by doing that, i don't think they're really doing anybody any good... in a spiritual sense.
-M
CMSturgeon 03-28-2007, 07:40 AM :yeahthat:
metro 03-29-2007, 09:21 PM Since many on this forum like to speak on behalf of Craig, I thought I'd post directly from Craig's blog and let him speak for himself on the topic of church as being entertainment. This is Part 3 (from yesterday) of a 4 part installment. If you care to read more, you can check it out at LifeChurch.tv : swerve (http://swerve.lifechurch.tv)
It Shouldn’t Matter, But… (Part 3)
Published by Craig Groeschel March 28th, 2007 in marketing, customer service and church.
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In the church world, entertainment shouldn’t even be a consideration. God’s Word and His presence should be enough. I want to believe that with all my heart. (And my wife would stand by the statement forever.)
Entertainment shouldn’t matter. But sometimes it does.
The Church must recognize that we are competing for people’s attention. If you’re a church leader, your competition isn’t First Baptist Church, Shadow Valley Community Church or Holy Zion Apostolic Temple of Praise.
Your competition is:
The golf course
Snow skiing
The lake house
Sunday soccer games
Second Life
Mountain climbing
Sleeping in
American idol, Desperate Housewives, and 24
And a million other entertaining things
In the 1950’s, people were paying attention to the church and our message about Christ. We didn’t have to work to gain attention. The year is 2007 and things have changed.
I’ll be honest, I don’t like to think about how to gain and keep people’s attention with humor, suspense, stories, video etc. But a wise communicator and leader understands that in today’s world, even though entertainment shouldn’t matter, when it comes to getting and keeping someone’s attention to hear about Jesus, it often does.
(For the record, I’m not saying entertainment changes lives. It doesn’t and never will.)
I know many of you disagree. Let it rip!
CMSturgeon 03-29-2007, 10:37 PM Nope, Metro, I agree. I've heard countless say they don't go because it's boring. Why not try to do something to get those people in as well?
Martin 03-30-2007, 07:08 AM i've been following along since you first sent the link, actually... i'll agree it's better to hear this folks speak for themselves... and it seems to be proving my initial thoughts, metro.
so pastor craig says entertainment doesn't change lives, yet lifechurch focuses on it to get people in the door anyway. i agree with the idea that speakers should be engaging, but lifechurch focuses way too much on the entertainment aspect at the peril of other, more important scriptural issues... that is... in its struggle to become popular, lifechurch conveniently sacrifices scriptural doctrine.
and back to lifereach... still less than 300 people have signed up to volunteer for anything. what is that? 2% of the 15,000 that attend each week? hope to see those numbers climb...
-M
metro 03-30-2007, 05:53 PM Let me ask you this mmm, have you ever read one of Craig's books in it's entirity? Sat through an entire service? Taken everything verbatim what he said on any given topic and not taken bits and pieces of that message to "prove" your hypothesis? If you have, you surely are only fooling your self because you do not know Craig's heart. Even if you have listened to one or maybe two, and you still haven't got his heart and his passion to convey the Gospel message clearly, you must not have listened clearly. And if you haven't you definitely don't have enough evidence if you can call it that, to back up your claims. I have watched him and read/listened to his teachings for over 8 years and know his heart and it comes out in every message, more as time goes as a matter of fact. In now way is life's main goal to "entertain", it is only a method to grab attention.
Take this logical reasoning in the business world or any other realm. If you ask someone about a certain product (we'll call X), but aren't really familiar with it, never really used it to it's full extent or benefit, never did any research (or very little), never looked for credibility of the product, but that person was familiar with it vaguely and may have briefly used it. Then you ask Person 2 the exact same questions and use the same logic, and that person is extensively familiar with it, you're obviously going to put your faith more in that second person about product X.
Yet when it comes to lifechurch.tv or most megachurches, you continually use your own reasoning, without getting full knowledge.
On lifereach, did you search ALL campuses, or just the main OKC campus? Either way it hasn't even been a week since it started and the website hasn't been heavily promoted yet. Notice how you always focus on the negative instead of all the God churches are doing, regardless of their size. Just curious, what are you doing to serve the local church community? And lifechurch.tv has closer to 20,000 members but that is spread across 10 real life campuses in 5 states.
dismayed 03-30-2007, 10:41 PM I attended a church like Life Church for a while (that wasn't Life Church). I can't really put my finger on it, but I had a really uncomfortable feeling about the place the whole time I was there. It had a vibe not too unlike an Amway convention. I did like the fact that they were using music and technology to reach out to a modern world though.
Another thing I didn't really care for was that at times I felt like I was at a Republican rally. But that can be said of almost any of the church's in Oklahoma. I'm kind of tired of evangelical Republicans thinking they own all of Christianity in America, but I don't know that there's much of an alternative here.
Martin 03-31-2007, 06:53 AM metro, i don't need to read or hear every single word that craig has ever uttered in order to make an informed decision. i haven't formulated my opinions based solely on gossip or the the opinions of misinformed individuals... i've made them based on my own observations of lc and churches like lc and i've been observing for five years, easily. at my last job several years ago, we had a large account with a church nearly identical to lc. another client was a district of the evangelical covenant itself... a different district than what lifechurch and our client belonged, but the same 'denomination' nonetheless. so, i've talked with people, figured out their goals, saw how they operated, worked to conceive and generate marketing, etc. i know these people. i know enough to make an informed decision... just because i don't come to the same conclusion as you doesn't imply that i haven't done my homework.
i'll say that it's possible that craig and other lc leaders have decent intentions... but their efforts are misguided. however, i can tell by lc's actions, what they choose to focus on and what they choose to ignore that it's direction is to please people first and god second. i bring up the lifereach site as evidence that a majority of the 20,000 people that attend are more like spectators than worshippers of god (of course, i checked all campuses...). i've been behind the scenes, where people would complain about the choice of music in a given week or somebody felt the sound system wasn't quite up to snuff. sure, lc is great at marketing itself and getting people to come and delivering entertaining and motivational messages, but it fails at getting people to truly be obedient to god. it ignores or blatantly misinterprets scripture for the sake of being popular.
what do i do? since you asked... i help out leading my church's college-age group. i plan and organize events and bible studies for the group and often host people in my own home. i make sure that everyone's involved and nobody gets left behind. i sometimes help out a friend of mine who does the same thing (actually more than me) with my congregation's highschool group. i've led and been on teams that regularly visit people in the community that are sick or have suffered loss. can i do more? sure, but i do quite a bit.
but here's the important question, metro... i'm sure you're familiar with all of craig's books, but how much do you read and study your bible? -M
metro 03-31-2007, 04:42 PM mmm, i never said your opinion has to be the same as mine, however you openly admit that your "informed decision" against lifechurch, is based primarily on speculation as you mention "similar" churches. Clearly an "informed" person would know lifechurch is not even close to being about popularity as Craig weekly makes people feel UNCOMFORTABLE and clearly conveys the WORD OF GOD more than anything else he says or does. Furthermore just because we are very loosely affiliated with a denomination, you'd also clearly know by being informed that we to my knowledge the best I can research, never do demonational events, typically operate like an evangelical covenant church, etc. So comparing LC to another E.C. church, doesn't give sufficient evidence to warrant your hypothesis. And moreover, you'd know of the 200+ ministries of the church and the thousands of people we meet in need weekly. But of course, none of this meets YOUR standards. I'm glad GOD will be judging us ultimately, and not you.
If I go to Wal-Mart to pick up some cookies, and we'll say OREO's are my favorite, I don't get the Great Value brand for .99 cents, I get the OREO's for $2.50. Yes they are the same TYPE of cookie, but we all know the OREO's taste better and are made with better ingredients. JUST TO CLARIFY, I mention this NOT to say that LC is better than any other church, but you're not comparing apples to oranges. You can't say Crossings is like LC or LC is like Crossroads Cathedral, simply because we are all a mega-church, do marketing, are evangelical, have a bookstore, etc. An informed person would clearly be well educated in the EXACT product and have personally experienced it. Notice how I've never judged your church by your same standards. I've probably never had much experience with them personally, but probably similar churches, and churches in the same denomination, but yet I keep my mouth shut.
FYI, and I'm more familiar with my Bible than Craig's books, although I will admit, I do not spend as much time with it as I would like or should, just as could be said for anyone else. A true believer of the Word, would know that as soon as we become complacent with it or think we know enough, that is when we truly aren't understanding the Word and need it the most.
Martin 03-31-2007, 05:02 PM well, metro... i wouldn't compare crossings with life, but this church i would. the doctrine is the same and the culture is the same. it's not just because they're a megachurch. besides, that's not the only factor i've based my decision on. i don't have to actually go to lifechurch in order to make an informed decision.
i'm sorry that you can't tell the difference between somebody who disagrees with your doctrine and somebody who is idly judging you. however, since you read your bible and can speak from your experience at lifechurch, i'll invite you (again) to answer some questions about your church... if i'm so misinformed, here's your opportunity to fill me in. -M
Did God give us a choice as to what church we could belong to?
Are we part of this world or are we to be separate in faith and worship?
What is faith?
What must I do to be saved? (i especially want to see scripture on this one)
What is the Lord’s Supper?
Are women allowed to preach, teach or lead songs when men are present?
Some churches use instrumental music in worship. Do you? Why or why not?
mwmcl 04-04-2007, 10:39 AM Well this thread has taken yet another turn...
mwmcl 04-04-2007, 10:47 AM Clearly an "informed" person would know lifechurch is not even close to being about popularity as Craig weekly makes people feel UNCOMFORTABLE and clearly conveys the WORD OF GOD more than anything else he says or does. I'm an "informed" person and I tend to think that LifeChurch does a very good job of entertaining and they try really hard to be relevant. They spend quite a bit of money on entertainment and seeking relevance.
If I go to Wal-Mart to pick up some cookies, and we'll say OREO's are my favorite, I don't get the Great Value brand for .99 cents, I get the OREO's for $2.50. Yes they are the same TYPE of cookie, but we all know the OREO's taste better and are made with better ingredients. JUST TO CLARIFY, I mention this NOT to say that LC is better than any other church, but you're not comparing apples to oranges. WOW, I'm gonna need more clarification on the OREO/Church analogy. If the expensive Oreo is better then the generic Oreo... then what does that make LifeChurch and other churches?
Which church has teh better ingrdients? You can't raise the analogy that one is better than the other and then say that you are not saying that one is better than the other. Does the right hand know what the left is doing?
metro 04-04-2007, 10:59 AM mwmcl if you are going to quote me, please quote the statement in it's entireity. the rest of that same statement went as such:
You can't say Crossings is like LC or LC is like Crossroads Cathedral, simply because we are all a mega-church, do marketing, are evangelical, have a bookstore, etc. An informed person would clearly be well educated in the EXACT product and have personally experienced it. Notice how I've never judged your church by your same standards. I've probably never had much experience with them personally, but probably similar churches, and churches in the same denomination, but yet I keep my mouth shut.
I CLEARLY STATED I was not saying lifechurch is better than others and to CLARIFY, I DO NOT, never have, nor ever will think that life is better than any other church, I was simply saying mmm can't (or shouldn't at least) base his judgement of lifechurch, in part because of his experience with other "similar megachurches". Frankly I haven't met another mega-church exactly like lifechurch.tv. My statement was saying judge it for what it is and watch/attend some services then make an informed decision. Don't watch maybe one online sermon and use experience from another church to judge lifechurch.tv. Sorry if you couldn't decipher what I was saying with perhaps a bad OREO cookie analogy.
Martin 04-04-2007, 11:09 AM i stand by my comparison, metro... but if i'm not hip to the differences that you speak of then you could fill me in by just answering some simple questions about what you and lifechurch believe to be doctrinal... does lifechurch conform to what the scriptures command christians to do. but you routinely avoid questions that nail down exactly what it is you believe.
so... you either know what you believe and don't care enough to take the time, know what you believe but don't have the faith that those beliefs will stand up to scrutiny or you just simply don't know enough to even know what it is that you believe.
so, metro... you're either lazy, dishonest or unkowledgeable on the subject. take your pick. -M
mwmcl 04-04-2007, 11:09 AM mwmcl if you are going to quote me, please quote the statement in it's entireity. the rest of that same statement went as such:
I CLEARLY STATED I was not saying lifechurch is better than others and to CLARIFY, I DO NOT, never have, nor ever will think that life is better than any other church, I was simply saying mmm can't (or shouldn't at least) base his judgement of lifechurch, in part because of his experience with other "similar megachurches". Frankly I haven't met another mega-church exactly like lifechurch.tv. My statement was saying judge it for what it is and watch/attend some services then make an informed decision. Don't watch maybe one online sermon and use experience from another church to judge lifechurch.tv. Sorry if you couldn't decipher what I was saying with perhaps a bad OREO cookie analogy.
Like I stated NUMEROUS times, I'm familar and "informed" as to LifeChurch.tv
I just wanted some expounding on the OREO analogy. I did read the rest of your post and you started off saying one thing then finished saying something completely different. So is LifeChruch the OREO and other MegaChurches the generic oreo-type? Or are non-megachurches the oreo knock-off?
Church size and programs are hardly germaine to the question of a god church or healthy church. The question I have is how does LifeChruch.tv standup to the basic commands that Jesus/The Holy Spirit dictated to the Disciples (and Paul) concerning how the Church was to operate.
I could care less if LifeChurch.tv has the greatest OREO/VIDEO screen. It all comes down to being a Church modeled after the New Testament not the New American/Relevant/Convenient Version of the New Testament. And I think that LifeChurch.tv does a decent job of measuring up but I also have some problems. And those problems are basic theological/philosophical differences.
metro 04-04-2007, 11:32 AM Well to please you or not the real matter is simple. Lifechurch.tv is the most new testament church I know of and have experienced. Agree with me or not. Correct me if I'm wrong but Jesus, Paul, and the disciples used many of the same tactics lifechurch.tv is accused of using "unbiblically". I guess Jesus wouldn't be a Christian according to some fundamentalist standards though. He was often the odd man out compared to the society at the time. Sound familiar?
The real debate you have at hand is obviously fundamentalism vs. evangelism and obviously you lean more towards fundamentalism and I lean more towards evangelism. That's fine. Let's be adults already and agree to disagree. It's obvious you're never going to be content with lifechurch.tv, myself, or others. You serve a purpose in your church and the Kingdom and so do I. Honestly I could care less if I agree with you're churches doctrine or you agree with mine, there isn't going to be any theological differences or denominations in Heaven, so why worry about it now. lifechurch.tv is the only church I know to say if you don't fit in here, please find a local church you do like, please serve in your local church, if not here, somewhere, serve in your community, get plugged in a local church. I highly doubt other churches are doing the same, let alone saying if you don't fit in here, go to lifechurch.tv (not that I necessarily want them to, but just saying in principle). In fact, I have heard others from other churches say that their pastor preaches from the pulpit against lifechurch.tv. Doesn't sound very Christianlike to me to knock a "brother down". I thought we're on the same team after all. Especially if it is one they don't see as "biblically correct". Jesus instructs us to have mercy on those who don't know and to lift them up when their weak and to confront them personally and rectify the matter. If so many people are upset with Craig Grochel and his nonbiblical or not biblical enough teaching, why aren't they going directly to him instead of talking behind his back? Every time I try to post something good about the church, you have to criticize something about it, not good enough for you, but its obviously good enough for God. I'm glad I live by his standards and not yours, and repent when I fall short. I'll answer to him not man. I shouldn't have to "explain myself". God is good enough for me and I'm not to low for him. If God didn't agree with lifechurch.tv or think it wasn't "Biblical or Biblical enough" there is an infinite number of ways he could strike it down. But it sure seems the opposite to me that God seems to keep blessing it and reaching thousands that otherwise will never hear the Gospel. I'm thankful everyday for that. I'm not saying the name of the church or the numbers we reach are important, but that sure says something. People want to be a part of where God is moving, meaningful, and relevant.
Perhaps I should have used OREO vs. Chips Ahoy analogy, both are good quality, etc, however they taste different. Generic might have been bad analogy. Oreo obviously tastes different than Chips Ahoy. (i.e. Baptists belive differently than Pentecostal). Make sense?
Anyhow, as I mentioned, we'll have to agree to disagree.
PUGalicious 04-04-2007, 11:48 AM Correct me if I'm wrong but Jesus, Paul, and the disciples used many of the same tactics lifechurch.tv is accused of using...
I guess I didn't realize that Jesus, Paul and the disciples delivered their messages/sermons by video, beamed by satellite to multiple franchises/campuses/locations.
Martin 04-04-2007, 12:38 PM lifechurch.tv is the most new testament church i know of...
by what standard is it the most 'new testament' church? tell us how the doctrine matches that of what's actually in the new testament.
jesus, paul, and the disciples used many of the same tactics lifechurch.tv is accused of using "unbiblically".
oh? and what tactics are these?
i have heard others from other churches say that their pastor preaches from the pulpit against lifechurch.tv. doesn't sound very christianlike to me to knock a "brother down".
we don't preach against lifechurch per se where i go to church... but if somebody were to give scriptural evidence from the pulpit that demonstrated that what lifechurch teaches isn't in agreement with the bible, then how is that unchristianlike? so paul was being unchristianlike and judgmental every time he wrote a letter to a church that told them that they were doing wrong?
every time i try to post something good about the church, you have to criticize something about it, not good enough for you, but its obviously good enough for god.
how do you know it's good enough for god? by what standard is it good enough... your own? or did you just ask god yourself? do you have some signed letter from god that says 'lifechurch is obviously good enough for me... two thumbs up!'?
i'm glad i live by his standards and not yours, and repent when i fall short.
that's the point... you can't demonstrate the the things you and lifechurch do are living up to god's standards.
i shouldn't have to "explain myself".
are you kidding? that whole "i'm right and i shouldn't have to explain myself" ideal sounds like a mranderson view of the world... so i guess the apostle paul got mad at the bereans when they asked him to explain himself.
if god didn't agree with lifechurch.tv or think it wasn't "biblical or biblical enough" there is an infinite number of ways he could strike it down.
i see... so lifechurch is biblical and in god's favor because he didn't strike it down. so... by your logic... just like lifechurch, the porn industry is thriving in america... so it must have god's approval or there'd be an infinite number of ways he could strike it down. so you must also think that god hates jewish people since so many died in the holocaust... is that what you're saying, metro?
-M
kmf563 04-04-2007, 01:16 PM I like pancakes. What was the question? You guys are hilarious.
mwmcl 04-04-2007, 02:30 PM Metro
Take a deep breathe and relax. I posted that I like some of the things that LifeChurch.tv does. I understand that they do things differently. I just do not and will not like their recent 'marketing campaign'.
I do not and will not ever agree with the franchising of the church. But that is OK. It's not exactly an essential. I think that the essentials of Christian Doctrine are for the most part being taught at LifeChurch.tv
I do think you need to develop the ability to allow others to disagree with and dislike LifeChruch.tv. The only time people attack you is when you start taking the criticism of LifeChurch.tv personally.
For the record... I'm about as far removed from Fundamentalism as LifeChurch.tv is removed from simplicity.
And for the record... I love OREO's with Milk and Chips A'Hoy with Peanut Butter.
southokie 04-04-2007, 02:32 PM Let me ask you this mmm, have you ever read one of Craig's books in it's entirity? Sat through an entire service? Taken everything verbatim what he said on any given topic and not taken bits and pieces of that message to "prove" your hypothesis? If you have, you surely are only fooling your self because you do not know Craig's heart. Even if you have listened to one or maybe two, and you still haven't got his heart and his passion to convey the Gospel message clearly, you must not have listened clearly. And if you haven't you definitely don't have enough evidence if you can call it that, to back up your claims. I have watched him and read/listened to his teachings for over 8 years and know his heart and it comes out in every message, more as time goes as a matter of fact. In now way is life's main goal to "entertain", it is only a method to grab attention.
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Notice how Metro automatically associates an attack on Lifechurch/ backslash/ semicolon/ dot tv. dot com with an attack on its Pastor, Craig.
This is my biggest problem with Lifechurch/backslash/ semicolon/dot.tv.dot.com, because it is almost entirely centered, no it IS entirely centered around one man. Sure, they have a large support staff, whom many of my family members and friends work for, but who is being broadcast from city to city like a scene out of 1984? Its Craig.
The entire "church" is centered around one guy, much like Joel Olsteen's church is centered around him. What happens if he falls? What happens if he is killed in a car accident? What happens if he is caught in homosexual/ meth dealings like some other pastors???
Another problem with LF is the fact that its all about marketing its name. Lifegroup, Lifechat, Lifeshirts, Lifereach, Lifepreservers, Lifecoffee, Lifechurch....
Blah.
If the church was so concerned with sharing the good news of Jesus Christ, why don't you ever see Crosses in its campuses? Why Can't you find the name "Jesus" anywhere on the website?
Martin 04-04-2007, 02:57 PM i do not and will not ever agree with the franchising of the church. but that is ok. it's not exactly an essential.
i'll agree with that... i'm not into franchising, but i wouldn't go as far as to say it's unscriptural.
i think that the essentials of christian doctrine are for the most part being taught at lifechurch.tvok... so what are these essentials that they teach? if they're teaching just the essentials... what else is considered voluntary? does scripture agree that these things are voluntary? and if it doesn't agree... does that even matter? -M
Martin 04-04-2007, 03:01 PM if the church was so concerned with sharing the good news of jesus christ, why don't you ever see crosses in its campuses? i've gotta disagree with that... whether or not a church building is decorated with a cross has little bearing on the message being preached... the cross is just a symbol of christianity. christians worship christ... not the cross. -M
PUGalicious 04-04-2007, 03:07 PM If the church was so concerned with sharing the good news of Jesus Christ, why don't you ever see Crosses in its campuses?
Ummmmmm.... if you're talking about Lifechurch.... have you not seen the HUGE cross at the Edmond campus??? You can see it from the highway from quite some distance, for crying out loud!
Martin 04-04-2007, 03:15 PM ^
good point... i didn't even think about that... but even if they didn't, i don't think it'd matter. -M
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