i just think it's a bit dishonest to say that it's only about the message. regardless of what i think of its theology... lifechurch is marketed like a brand. it markets branded bumper stickers, tee shirts, albums, etc. while you may argue that those are just witnessing tools, you can't deny that on these items themselves the brand is being marketed over the message. -M

you can't argue with that. they pretty much franchise themselves.

metro, i watched the "opening video" but I can't find the one of the ghost or whatever that's causing all the controversy.

mmm and jbrown84 you bring some valid points. I can agree with you on some in fact believe it or not. But have either one of you ever attended a lifechurch.tv service or watched a complete online sermon? I know most people who are critical of the church, never have once! So to those people, how can you not judge yourself by the same standards? If someone was judging you, would you not want them to use fair standards when doing so? If they didn't know you, how could they judge you fairly? Regardless of how you look at it, lifechurch.tv has a successful method that reaches a modern world.

I had an interesting thought with all this "franchise" talk. Are denominational churches including Catholics not the same in principal, perhaps just not method? Let's think about it for a second. Most denominations I know, Baptist, Nazarene, Pentecostal Holiness, Assembly of God, etc. require their ministers to "tithe" their salaries to the denominational offices, not their local church. In addition, I'm not sure if the denomination requires money above and beyond that. Even if they don't , I know many "traditional churches" that do special offerings that go to the denomination on occasion throughout the year. Think of what it goes to, missionaries (good thing), but it also pays for tons of denominational positions (most of which make decent money and many have assistants, etc.), denominational materials and publications, denominational office buildings, denominational churches, bishops and other hierarchy, etc. Are denominations not acting as franchises?? This sure brings Luke 20:46-47 to mind.

Beware of these teachers of religious law! For they love to parade in flowing robes and have everyone bow to them as they walk in the marketplaces...But they shamelessly cheat widows out of their property..Because of this, their punishment will be greater.

Not saying my view is right or wrong on the subject, but I think it is interesting food for thought nonetheless. Just because a more modern approach is used by churches today, doesn't mean the principal of "franchisism" you are using isn't any different, just a different method in a modern world. From the scripture above, we see that "religious hierarchy" existed even in Jesus time.

metro, I have been to Life on several occasions. The Southern Baptist Convention requires no specific amount of money from local churches, and does not take the pastor's pay nor hire them. Each church is completely autonomous. You have churches like Henderson Hills that give very little to denominational entities, and churches like mine that choose to give quite a bit, while also doing our own ministries and missions. And both churches hire their own ministers, unlike many other protestant denominations as well as Catholics.

As far as franchising, what I am referring to is the way you take existing churches and advertise that they can become a local LifeChurch campus in their market. And then each church offers the exact same programs and style and has the same pastor on a big screen. Sounds a lot like franchised restaurants doesn't it? I still think LifeChurch does a lot of good things, I just have a few concerns here and there. I do think it is a good church overall and don't mean to be overly critical.

i had an interesting thought with all this "franchise" talk. are denominational churches including catholics not the same in principal, perhaps just not method? let's think about it for a second. most denominations i know, baptist, nazarene, pentecostal holiness, assembly of god, etc. require their ministers to "tithe" their salaries to the denominational offices, not their local church. in addition, i'm not sure if the denomination requires money above and beyond that. even if they don't , i know many "traditional churches" that do special offerings that go to the denomination on occasion throughout the year. think of what it goes to, missionaries (good thing), but it also pays for tons of denominational positions (most of which make decent money and many have assistants, etc.), denominational materials and publications, denominational office buildings, denominational churches, bishops and other hierarchy, etc. are denominations not acting as franchises??
i agree with you 100% here. scripture does not suggest church government beyond the congregational level. scripture suggests that each congregation is autonomously led by its own set of elders. (Titus 1:5-16; 1 Timothy 3:1-7; 5:17-19; 1 Peter 5:1-4) therefore, the idea of denominational (or 'franchise', in this case) offices is not based on scripture. this also suggests that pastor-led congregations are not in accordance with scripture. in fact, the very idea of denominations themselves is unscriptural. one should not strive to be baptist, nazarene, pentecostal, evangelical, etc but should simply strive to be a follower of christ. scripture tells us that there is just one church, one body... the one in which christ established.

i've been wanting to visit lifechurch for awhile... just to see firsthand how people behave, etc. while one isn't far away, my schedule is just too busy. professionally i have worked closely with similar churches, though. it's also been some time since i've listened to one of their sermons... how about you pick one out and i'll watch it through and come back here with what i think...

-M

jbrown and mmm, thanks for being level headed and open to discussion. i appreciate that. jbrown, you will notice i didn't mention southern baptists, but just baptists. regardless of how the "southern baptists" operate, they are still operating like a franchise in some regards as well as every denomination. correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd be willing to say that ANY denomination or church would consider and possibly accept another church to merge with them IF they felt the other church was in agreement and the elders and members came to that consensus. despite that, as mmm said, the whole idea of denominationalism, etc is unscriptural. we are all to become "fully devoted followers of Christ" as part of lifechurch.tv's vision states.

mmm, fair enough, i have a sermon in mind actually and its a fairly recent one that way we're talking about recent information. let me find it and i'll post it back for you.

I choose Week One of our current series, Urban Legends. I find it a powerful and relevant message.

Webcasts | LifeChurch.tv (http://www.lifechurch.tv/Default.aspx/p/39?SermonID=83&CategoryID=2)

You'll need to click week 1 and choose your internet connection speed. Thanks and happy viewing.

I'd be willing to say that ANY denomination or church would consider and possibly accept another church to merge with them IF they felt the other church was in agreement and the elders and members came to that consensus. despite that, as mmm said, the whole idea of denominationalism, etc is unscriptural. we are all to become "fully devoted followers of Christ" as part of lifechurch.tv's vision states.

I only used Southern Baptist because that is what I am and there is no just "Baptist" denomination. The difference as far as "franchising" goes is that there is no branding of logos, no singular pastor, no singular doctrinal guidelines. Among Southern Baptist churches you have very traditional ones like and you have very progressive ones and you have pastor-led ones and deacon-led ones and elder-led ones. Baptists have no creed. So the franchising aspect is only very loosely applied. Baptist isn't even in the name necessarily. My aunt and uncle are members of a Southern Baptist church in Wichita called River Community Church. And actually, a church can't just decide to become Southern Baptist. Only newly planted churches can be new Southern Baptist churches.

I'll give you that denominations aren't scriptural in that they aren't dictated by scripture, but there's nothing about them that goes against scripture. And don't forget that LifeChurch is part of a denomination, Evangelical Covenant.

sorry it took so long... so i viewed week one and will try to watch the next installment.

i agree with most of what was said, especially the idea that one's actions must reflect christ. i agree with the idea presented that christianity isn't about what is popular or what blends in with modern society. however, it's interesting to me that contrary to those words, lifechurch gears itself to be just those things; it strives to make itself relevent to the modern world more than making itself relevant to the word of god.

toward the end of the sermon, i felt that the focus was shifted too much toward appealing to the audience's emotions. the idea of lifting one's hands and being led with emotionally charged messages is a bit distressing to me. i would have loved to see the crowd in this part. i think it's a potentially dangerous proposition for people to base their faith on emotion. in large groups, it's easy for people to lose their identitiy and be swayed by a group's collective emotions. the basis for faith shouldn't be an emotional pang brought about by groupthink.

scripture tells us that 'faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the word of god.' (rom. 10:17) the greek word used for 'word' is logos. it's where we get the word for 'logic.' our faith comes by an appeal to our logic through the study of scripture. people often make decisions they otherwise would not make when they think with their emotions. it's why car salesmen and mortuary workers appeal to emotions when making a sale. if faith is based on emotion, then we feel far from god when we feel at our worst. it's therefore a better thing for faith to be based on logic than to base it off of emotion.

i don't want you to think that last criticism is targeted just to lifechurch... even those who are close to my own faith sometimes use emotion to motivate people a bit more than they sometimes should... just not to this extent, perhaps... but there are worse offenders, in my opinion.

like i say, i'll try to find some time to check out week 2 and i'll comment on that if there's anything relevant. -M

I have to agree with your concerns with emotion-based sermons/worship. It's something I've been warned about many times by some of the most mature Christians I know.

I agree mmm with the "hand-raising" issue... you shouldn't need to raise your hands to show your commitment, that should be brought about through your actions following the sermon. I always leave right after the sermon is finished.

so basically you don't respect your elders or peers in service and leave before you are dismissed? especially when they often say please do not leave until we dismiss. This creates distractions for others and makes it more difficult for ushers, etc.

so basically you argue that it's judgmental for people to criticize lifechurch's worship style but then judge others for leaving early based on their own worship style preferences. sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

and i thought that lifechurch was about reaching people on their individual comfort levels... that is, i guess, until someone tries to leave during a part that makes them uncomfortable. -M

Wow, where to start. 1st my wife & i sit in the back of the church so noone is interupted. 2nd they have never implied that we shouldn't leave until dismissed. And 3rd how is leaving AFTER the sermon disrespectful to "my elders". Additionally, my wife & I leave as soon as possible b/c our son is in their daycare & being 2, doesn't exactly understand why mommy & daddy left him. Please think before you speak, especially if you are advocating a church that the general public is reading about... you aren't scoring brownie points.

I've never been to a service where they said "Please don't leave until you are dismissed."

Wow, where to start. 1st my wife & i sit in the back of the church so noone is interupted. 2nd they have never implied that we shouldn't leave until dismissed. And 3rd how is leaving AFTER the sermon disrespectful to "my elders". Additionally, my wife & I leave as soon as possible b/c our son is in their daycare & being 2, doesn't exactly understand why mommy & daddy left him. Please think before you speak, especially if you are advocating a church that the general public is reading about... you aren't scoring brownie points.

Actually jd...I would think the folks in the daycare are probably glad you leave a little early with a two year old :Smiley199

As a person who actually worked with 2 year olds in church daycare, yes, please, if you can take your children early, then by all means do so!

I really don't see how leaving early affects anyone but those leaving. He stays for the important part, give the guy a break.

so basically you don't respect your elders or peers in service and leave before you are dismissed? especially when they often say please do not leave until we dismiss. This creates distractions for others and makes it more difficult for ushers, etc.

Should Metro's fellow "peers" stumble in their walk with God merely because he leaves early then I highly question their relationship with God to begin with.

It is ok to use different things to get their attention. But don't call it church or a worship service. Christ threw out the money changers. It was the only time he got really angry.

Catholics don't worship Mary. Where did you hear that?

They pray to Mary, indicating that she has the power to hear and answer them. They definitley give her a semi-divine status.

We ask Mary to pray for us just like others ask for prayers from people around them.

They pray to Mary, indicating that she has the power to hear and answer them. They definitley give her a semi-divine status.

Never heard of semi-divine status.

Yeah but Mary is dead.

Yeah but Mary is dead.

So is Jesus.

But Jesus is God and he was resurrected--according to scripture. Not the case with Mary.

Just curious....has anyone that goes to LifeChurch asked for a refund on their tithe yet? I know they have that policy now. If you tithe your money, and God doesn't bless you, you can ask for a refund. They also encourage those in need to take money out of the offering plate if they need it.

Okay, must be me, but I think both of these policies are over the top.

1. You don't give to God expecting something in return.

2. Most churches have a Benevolence fund that covers people in need

I completely agree Patrick.

Don't they also do automatic deduction from your checking account? Or is that Hendy?

But Jesus is God and he was resurrected--according to scripture. Not the case with Mary.

Checkmate! You got me! The Bible said it was so, so it is.

Circular Reasoning.

Just curious....has anyone that goes to LifeChurch asked for a refund on their tithe yet? I know they have that policy now. If you tithe your money, and God doesn't bless you, you can ask for a refund. They also encourage those in need to take money out of the offering plate if they need it.

Okay, must be me, but I think both of these policies are over the top.

1. You don't give to God expecting something in return.

2. Most churches have a Benevolence fund that covers people in need

"Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. " -- Luke 6:30

Checkmate! You got me! The Bible said it was so, so it is.

Circular Reasoning.

I wasn't discussing it with you, I was discussing it with someone else who believes the Bible.


"Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. " -- Luke 6:30

Hence why we have a benevolence fund.

Yeah but Mary is dead.


So is Jesus.


But Jesus is God and he was resurrected--according to scripture. Not the case with Mary.


Checkmate! You got me! The Bible said it was so, so it is.

Circular Reasoning.


I wasn't discussing it with you, I was discussing it with someone else who believes the Bible.

Sorry, kind of got tied up with the chronological order of things. I thought surely when you replied you weren't replying to yourself seeing as itsgallagher last wrote at 5:00 to which you responded at 5:05 and yet again (??) at 7:51 (according to your argument).



Hence why we have a benevolence fund.
Alright, may I have $1,000?

I didn't reply to myself. I replied to you after you hijacked the discussion by interjecting that "Jesus is dead", something irrelevant to a discussion between a Protestant and a Catholic.

I didn't reply to myself. I replied to you after you hijacked the discussion by interjecting that "Jesus is dead", something irrelevant to a discussion between a Protestant and a Catholic.

That you associated my comment to a hi-jacking is utterly laughable! It's a public forum; If you don't want to be "held hostage to a discussion hi-jacking", merely don't respond[1]. Otherwise, you may look like a dolt when you try to deny that a discussion took place[2].


1. "But Jesus is God and he was resurrected--according to scripture. Not the case with Mary."
2. "I wasn't discussing it (an argument of whether Jesus is dead/resurrected*) with you"


*Read the above comments for the full play-by-play. The time stamps effectively show a separate discussion. You clutching straws, my friend.

What do time stamps have to do with it? You interjected an inflammatory comment that did not contribute to the discussion of whether Mary is worshipped by the Catholic church or not.

If you were Catholic, that would not have been part of your response to my last post to itsgallagher.

Mary is not dead. Jesus is not dead either. Everlasting life means everlasting life. If Jesus was dead we would have no faith. This is simple fundamental stuff.

You interjected an inflammatory comment that did not contribute to the discussion of whether Mary is worshipped by the Catholic church or not.

Firstly I hardly describe my comment "Jesus is dead" as inflammatory! It's merely the truth. Had I written, "President Bush is a horrible President for going to war", it could be perceived as inflammatory verses "President Bush's reason for for going to war was unconstitutional" which is truth. There is no inflammatory remark in the latter statement nor the comment "Jesus is dead". You have no proof for Jesus' resurrection and I don't heed to "faith"

Again, your views of Jesus' divinity are irrelevant to a discussion between a Protestant and a Catholic over Mary.

You can not use an Atheist argument to defend the Catholic view of Mary.

I didn’t say your comments were inflammatory. How do you know Jesus is dead? Were you there? If you don’t heed to faith then what do you heed to?

Anyway back to Mary being dead. What makes you think Mary is dead? Where did you learn/hear that.

what does any of this have to do with lifechurch? back to topic.

Wow, where to start. 1st my wife & i sit in the back of the church so noone is interupted. 2nd they have never implied that we shouldn't leave until dismissed. And 3rd how is leaving AFTER the sermon disrespectful to "my elders". Additionally, my wife & I leave as soon as possible b/c our son is in their daycare & being 2, doesn't exactly understand why mommy & daddy left him. Please think before you speak, especially if you are advocating a church that the general public is reading about... you aren't scoring brownie points.

jdsplaypin and others let's get the facts straight when misquoting me. to clarify, here is what I said verbatim:
so basically you don't respect your elders or peers in service and leave before you are dismissed? especially when they often say please do not leave until we dismiss. This creates distractions for others and makes it more difficult for ushers, etc.

Where to start eh? If you're talking about Life Church and go there, Yes they DO imply and usually state every week that please do not leave until we dismiss with "Whomever Finds God, Finds Life". If you're leaving as soon as the sermon is over, then you're not staying long enough for them to even say it. They say it during the prayer after the sermon which some people walk out on. I DO think that is disrespectful to walk out on the pastor while he is praying and while ushers are doing their jobs. Not sure what your job is, but if someone interrupted you while you were doing it, I'd bet you thought it would be RUDE. I do agree with someone's comments that said if someone stumbles with their walk in God because of people leaving early then their faith is questioned. Two things wrong with that statement, who are we to judge where someone else is at in their faith or lack thereof, and two, I never said anything about people stumbling because of it, I said it creates a distraction, simple case in point it does, regardless of it being a church service. If I was in a business meeting and it was near the end and I decide to leave a minute or two early, its a distraction for the others who choose to stay until the business meeting is over with? Is that not the same principle?

Furthermore, the LifeKIDS is not exactly daycare, but I'll go with you on this one. I actually volunteer with the kids every week, usually the newborns ages 0-10 months. On several occasions I have helped in the 2 year old room, and bring my nephew to that room ocassionally when possible. As a matter of fact, they get instructed with a Bible lesson (obviously a short one given their attention span), do praise and worship on their level, do a craft, and play. Many of them can tell their mommy and daddy a little from the Bible lesson they learned that day (depending on where they are developmentally) as well as remember some of the kiddie praise and worship songs. I'm willing to bet Lifechurch.tv has the most adequately and professionally trained volunteers of any church in the country and perhaps the world. Not saying that in a boastful way, but due size of the church, a good size portion of the offerings are spent on the Kids, the kids are the future. Over the course of the year's we've developed great kids curriculum and security measures, and in fact churches from all over the world fly in to be trained and watch how LC does their kids programs. We also provide FREE material and resources to other churches expecting nothing in return, no referrals, no Lifechurch.tv logos, etc. (something you won't find most if any megachurches doing, most megachurches charge for this stuff) For more info on this you can go to the OPEN section of the lifechurch website : United | Network | Open | LifeChurch.tv (http://www.lifechurch.tv/p/695/Default.aspx) We go through extensive training and background checks before we can become volunteers. Additionally, because of the size of the church, we can break the kids up into more "developmental stages" than most churches and just a "nursery" (not that anything is wrong with that for churches w/o the resources of Life). I'm willing to bet your child is being loved on, cared for and will be fine for an extra 2 or 3 minutes until church is officially dismissed, just like the other 25or so kids in the same class every hour who are probably going through the same thing. Following common courtesy of what the church leaders helps makes all the 600+ volunteers at the N. OKC location a weekend go a little smoother. So all this is not to be boastful, but to answer your statement of "Thinking before I speak"

I also wanted to give a brief update on some of the happenings at lifechurch.tv:

Last weekend we were all surprised with the launch of our newest campus in Wellington, Florida. We are delighted that our church has grown to the East Coast and extened our reach in leading people to become fully devoted followers of Christ. If you know someone in the West Palm Beach area, be sure to tell them about LifeChurch.tv's Wellington Campus!

As Spring approaches, we are also anticipating the launch of our Northwest Campus. We want to send 1500 people from the OKC Campus to help launch Northwest. If you feel God's calling you to be a part of the launch, make sure to sign up to be on the Northwest Team. Scott Williams, the NWOKC Campus Pastor, will be with us this weekend along with his team. Stop by their booth this weekend.

After we send out 1500 to NOC, tons of volunteer spots will be opened. We particularly want you to fill our LifeKids Cast Member positions. Volunteering in LifeKids gives you the opportunity to not only change a child's life, but also change generations to come. God has a role for each of us to play in His plan for LifeChurch.tv. Come find out if your role is in LifeKIDS! Our next Casting Call is March 10th or 17th at 3:30pm.

Metro-I'm sorry you had to write all that out for me to "better understand it" but you did not inform me of anything new... just more babble babble "business... disrespectful... babble babble" This is church, and i can worship, participate, be involved at ANY level i chose without your input "which i never asked for" i've read over your post for years now and many are good and VERY few are bad in my opinion, however, i never once called you out about your personal opinions on how things should be done. Contrary to your belief, i am not disrupting anyone or anything, the ushers simply smile at my wife & I and say goodbye Jimmy & Amanda, it was good to see you again. And lastly, i have indeed stayed many a time for the full shebang and never once have they said please stay or even implied it, so perhaps our church does things differently. Thank you for strengthening my opinion even more so than it previously was.

Wow. Entertaining.

I just think its funny how so many churches have become like business chains. I am just waiting for the drive thru church.

Pastor: Welcome to McChurchbucks-mart may take I your order.

Parishioner: Yeah I'll take sermon number 5, a Davey and Goliath Sunday school combo, The bacon egg and cheese communion wafer, a big chug communion wine and I guess I'll tithe $5 this week.

Pastor: Would like to make that a combo, It is comes with a free dashboard Jesus this week.

Parishioner: Ah hmmmm...Sure. Why not?

Pastor: Thank you pull to the first window for your total and your assigned bible reading for this week.

better get a patent on that idea

To late somebody already beat me to the Idea.



www.driveinchurch.net/ (http://www.driveinchurch.net/)



Fogonazos: The weirdest "Drive Thrus" (http://fogonazos.blogspot.com/2007/02/weirdest-drive-thrus.html)

I'm sure this will cause more controversy but here you go, our church launched a new website: SatanHatesLife.com (http://www.satanhateslife.com)

To late somebody already beat me to the Idea.



www.driveinchurch.net/ (http://www.driveinchurch.net/)



Fogonazos: The weirdest "Drive Thrus" (http://fogonazos.blogspot.com/2007/02/weirdest-drive-thrus.html)

Wow, what a good idea. You could get CB radios just in case you want to add something to the service. And it'd make it a lot easier to act like your listening, just be there, but listen to the game instead. Do you think they'll just start showing movies if I go long enough? If I went, I would drive a large van so I could block the view of people behind me, so they couldn't see the projector screen bible. :tiphat:

I'm sure this will cause more controversy but here you go, our church launched a new website: SatanHatesLife.com (http://www.satanhateslife.com)

Are those real billboards? If so, whoever created those is an advertising mastermind. Obviously whoever is behind your church is an advertising mastermind anyway. Don't take that offensively because it wasn't meant that way, the growth rate is impressive. I wasn't sure what to think of it when I saw it next to Academy, but you're shedding light on the subject for me. Good patron.

Yes, CMSturgeon, those are real billboards across various major metro cities in the U.S (including OKC of course). I agree it is marketing genius, me being a marketing major, I can appreciate it. Thanks for the comments, but God gets the praise, not lifechurch.tv or the staffperson who created it.

Yes, CMSturgeon, those are real billboards across various major metro cities in the U.S (including OKC of course). I agree it is marketing genius, me being a marketing major, I can appreciate it. Thanks for the comments, but God gets the praise, not lifechurch.tv or the staffperson who created it.

Well, I couldn't tell from the pics if they were real, I mean, I haven't seen any of them while driving anyway. The picture almost looked edited on one of them, thats why I asked. Hey, who was behind the message from God ones? I remember when they did a news report on the mysterious billboards. I always thought those were a good idea as well.

but God gets the praise, not lifechurch.tv or the staffperson who created it.

Then why not just say Satan Hates Churches? Comes off a little self-congradulatory to me.


Sturgeon, I thought they looked like fake, photoshopped billboards too.

sigh. the billboards shown on the site are shopped... no doubt about it. i haven't seen any of these around town, either... so if they're real billboards, metro, tell us exactly where you've seen one...

i agree with jbrown84, why not just 'satan hates church?' it's as if lifechurch is saying that any criticism of its practices is rooted in evil... that's a pretty small-minded and cavalier attitude. -M

because if it simply said "satan hates church" or anything else that you'd "prefer" it to say, you wouldn't have anything to criticize. if you're so upset or question it, why don't you contact the church directly about it, not me. as a matter of fact, the SatanHatesLife.com (http://www.satanhateslife.com) website has a "formal complaint form" that you can file right on the website, so you can complain, criticize and hide behind your computer screen anonymously. as others have said, its advertising genius, simply signing off - God, Satan, or the church doesn't get people plugged into a local church as well as other churches might not want to be affiliated with something so controversial, lifechurch.tv is obviously willing to allow it to hopefully get non-Christ followers to be plugged into a non-conventional church and take the hit for the criticism as well. and I never claimed to have seen the billboards. if you take the time to read the website, you will see that most of them are in the West Palm Beach, FL area, DFW metroplex, and Hendersonville,TN areas, and a couple in South OKC and Stillwater (all places where we have campuses). Next time I drive to south OKC, I will try and look out for one and let you know!

Somewhere along the way, critics of the church body forget that Christians ARE NOT perfect, we're normal everyday people who struggle just like everyone else and have flaws just like everyone. The only difference is we serve a God who IS perfect and gives us a hope.

the site says nothing about billboard locations. the pictures are obviously shopped and you've never seen one of the billboards in person, yet you try to pass them off as the real thing... just like anyone in marketing, you don't mind stretching the truth to sell your product.

do i feel the need to contact lc about this? no... the campaign isn't really that big a deal. all i'm saying is that it's a bit disingenuous to equate any and all criticism of lc to evil. i never denied that it wasn't marketing genius... i'm just making a point.

critics of lc aren't evil and they don't forget that people are imperfect. the fact that we're imperfect is the reason why we choose to be critical when we see something that appears to be wrong. if you were doing something wrong or potentially dangerous, wouldn't you want somebody to bring it to your attention?

rather than engage in intelligent dialogue, metro, you choose to take everything said about lc personally. -M

Well, this site is a discussion site, and you have to admit that LifeChurch likes to stir up controversy. I'm simply responding to the fact that it comes off a little arrogant to me. "Look at us, we're such a good church, Satan hates us." I'M NOT SAYING that is what you guys believe, but it comes off that way and I think non-Christians may see it that way too.

the site says nothing about billboard locations. the pictures are obviously shopped and you've never seen one of the billboards in person, yet you try to pass them off as the real thing... just like anyone in marketing, you don't mind stretching the truth to sell your product.

do i feel the need to contact lc about this? no... the campaign isn't really that big a deal. all i'm saying is that it's a bit disingenuous to equate any and all criticism of lc to evil. i never denied that it wasn't marketing genius... i'm just making a point.

critics of lc aren't evil and they don't forget that people are imperfect. the fact that we're imperfect is the reason why we choose to be critical when we see something that appears to be wrong. if you were doing something wrong or potentially dangerous, wouldn't you want somebody to bring it to your attention?

rather than engage in intelligent dialogue, metro, you choose to take everything said about lc personally. -M

Okay mmm, giving the website a closer look, they do look photoshopped. I do know that there are actual billboards out there because I have been told by church staff and read it on the church newsletter even though I have not flown to Fort Worth, Nashville, West Palm Beach, or taken a drive to Stillwater or S. OKC to find them yet. Perhaps the ones on the website were the renderings that were emailed to the billboard company?? Here is a link to actual lifechurch.tv website talking about the billboard locations: Oklahoma City, OK: SatanHatesLife.tv | LifeChurch.tv (http://blog.lifechurch.tv/OKC/2007/03/satanhateslife_1.html) (We currently have 3 billboards in Hendersonville, 2 in South OKC, 1 in Edmond and 2 in Tulsa. Fort Worth will have several coming soon.)

Anyhow, let's take this a step further, using your logic of reasoning (according to your logic behind if the billboards exist), or any Rational thinking, science tells us we have 5 senses to identify and observe the world around us, right? Have you ever seen the wind? Have you ever tasted the wind? Have you ever touched the wind? Heard the wind? Smelt the wind? Logical thinking would tell us that the wind does not exist, yet it does. You've seen the effects of the wind but you've never seen the wind. Have you ever seen, tasted, touched,heard, or smelt your brain? According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol,
science says the wind or your brain (or anyone's for that matter) doesn't exist.

So, with this being said, do I take the same tactics of the critics of lifechurch.tv or any other church? Have they been to an entire service? Seen an entire service? Listened to an entire service? Tasted a service? Smelt a service? My guess is that the overwhelming majority of critics have not. Logical, empirical, testable data would tell us there is no basis for the criticism without proper experience.

No one is saying everything about lifechurch is bad, just questioning this particular marketing strategy.