Funny, osupa05. You really think MidTowner has any interest in LC? No way. He just wants to find someone to debate with. It will be a cold day in Hades before he even attempts to go to LC. He would rather go to a dull church and stay in the usual dull routine.

Easy, man! Maybe he's never been invited! I'd love to see him go, because I don't think it's in issue of dull vs. non-dull.... I'd love for him to go and see what God's doing in the lives of people there... as he does in many churches every week and something that's lacking in many others that have become complacent.

osupa05 is right. I think if Mid went a couple of times, with an open mind, his opinion would change. He could see what God is doing in people's lives every experience, every week. I'd love for him to go try it out. Then if he doesn't like it, at least he would be speaking from experience rather than just from what he has heard.

There's nothing superficial about a God who calls to deepest part of your being, who calls you to chase after Him with every ounce of your mind, heart, body and soul!

Mid, just out of curiousity, have you ever been to LC? You and furture Ms. Mid should come sometime! If you still believe after attending that the message of Christ is watered down and superficial, then hold to your stance.... pm me if you should decide to try it out, and I can get you the times, or even meet you and future Ms. Mid there, if you want!

Never been to LC, but my brother and his wife go every single Sunday and have been for quite some time. They come to the East campus all the way from Norman.

I have a litany of reasons as to why I won't attend LC. Off the top of my head, here are a few: 1) I have serious dogmatic differences, I'm a Catholic and I believe what necessarily must be believed in order to be a Catholic. Those beliefs such as 'salvation through works and faith,' the Eucharist, etc. would make worship at a place that doesn't hold those beliefs tantamount to going to a Bah'ai, Unitarian, Jewish or Muslim church. 2) I've already stated that the absurd presentation runs counter to what I think the church should be all about. It's great that people enjoy it, but it seems it's more of a self help/social event/hootinany get-together than a service where anyone's worshiping anything. 3) I work full time and go to law school part time. Religious experimentation is not something I have for.

Never been to LC, but my brother and his wife go every single Sunday and have been for quite some time. They come to the East campus all the way from Norman.

I have a litany of reasons as to why I won't attend LC. Off the top of my head, here are a few: 1) I have serious dogmatic differences, I'm a Catholic and I believe what necessarily must be believed in order to be a Catholic. Those beliefs such as 'salvation through works and faith,' the Eucharist, etc. would make worship at a place that doesn't hold those beliefs tantamount to going to a Bah'ai, Unitarian, Jewish or Muslim church. 2) I've already stated that the absurd presentation runs counter to what I think the church should be all about. It's great that people enjoy it, but it seems it's more of a self help/social event/hootinany get-together than a service where anyone's worshiping anything. 3) I work full time and go to law school part time. Religious experimentation is not something I have for.
I told you he would not be interested, although, he could learn a few things. He has an excuse for everything. Like I said in an earlier post, he doesn't care for religion at all, he just wants to debate someone. He sounds like he doesn't need God in his life????

I told you he would not be interested, although, he could learn a few things. He has an excuse for everything. Like I said in an earlier post, he doesn't care for religion at all, he just wants to debate someone. He sounds like he doesn't need God in his life????

Excuses, reasons.. tomato, tomatow. Honestly, Randy, you know nothing about me. Try showing a little respect and maturity. Your little personal attacks/comments are tiresome. I'm embarassed for you.

Excuses, reasons.. tomato, tomatow. Honestly, Randy, you know nothing about me. Try showing a little respect and maturity. Your little personal attacks/comments are tiresome. I'm embarassed for you.

With all due respect, Mid, you do your share of personal attacks as well as attacks on LC and its staff (particularly Craig) and members. Calling LC's methods absurd is very much an attack. You are demeaning the beliefs of thousands of people. If you want respect and maturity shown to you, you have to give it to others.

osupa05 is right. I think if Mid went a couple of times, with an open mind, his opinion would change. He could see what God is doing in people's lives every experience, every week. I'd love for him to go try it out. Then if he doesn't like it, at least he would be speaking from experience rather than just from what he has heard.

Mid wouldn't come. His head would have to soften up some.

Excuses, reasons.. tomato, tomatow. Honestly, Randy, you know nothing about me. Try showing a little respect and maturity. Your little personal attacks/comments are tiresome. I'm embarassed for you.

Shoot, I'm embarassed for you. You have nothing better to do than get on here and debate people to the ground.

I told you he would not be interested, although, he could learn a few things. He has an excuse for everything. Like I said in an earlier post, he doesn't care for religion at all, he just wants to debate someone. He sounds like he doesn't need God in his life????

Oh, he cares for religion. So much that he worships Mary. But, that's another story. His head is too hard to give in to trying something new. He'd rather bow down to his priest, say his hail mary's, dunk his head in holy water, and light candles before service.

With all due respect, Mid, you do your share of personal attacks as well as attacks on LC and its staff (particularly Craig) and members. Calling LC's methods absurd is very much an attack. You are demeaning the beliefs of thousands of people. If you want respect and maturity shown to you, you have to give it to others.

The person and the method are different things entirely. One is debatable, whereas the other serves no purpose. Their methods are absurd, and yes, that's an attack -- just not a personal one.

You need to be able to recognize the difference.

Oh, he cares for religion. So much that he worships Mary. But, that's another story. His head is too hard to give in to trying something new. He'd rather bow down to his priest, say his hail mary's, dunk his head in holy water, and light candles before service.

You're entitled to your opinion on Catholicism. Many rituals are just that -- rituals. They are rooted in traditions dating back thousands of years having no religious basis whatsoever. Many rituals are full of symbolism and involve the practice of reverence, humility, etc. If you want to attack the reason for the rituals, fine. Be aware though that you're just spinning your wheels -- you're just being an anti-catholic individual who has no intelligent basis whatsoever for his opinion (unless you finally want to offer one?).

With all due respect, Mid, you do your share of personal attacks as well as attacks on LC and its staff (particularly Craig) and members. Calling LC's methods absurd is very much an attack. You are demeaning the beliefs of thousands of people. If you want respect and maturity shown to you, you have to give it to others.
You are correct, OkieBear. He certainly does his share of personal attacks, but he will never admit it. That's why many don't show much respect for him. Maturity and respect are not his strong points.

I didn't think that I was the only one that saw through him.

Guys... why must you attack each other? Good grief! Every person is entitled to believe what they want. That's what's so awesome about God... He created us and gave us a choice whether or not to love Him back and follow Him... He doesn't force us into anything! Mid, I understand you not wanting to attend LC because it goes against catholicism, but doesn't that then mean that it is in a group with every other protestant church, traditional ones as well as ones who have "absurd" methods of sharing the gospel of Christ? So, then, why attack LC, just because it is non-traditional? You can argue against it's priniciples, if they contradict those which you believe, but the fact that LC uses a band to lead worship as opposed to an organ does not mean that it is not worship.... and believe me, God is the only entitiy being worshipped at LC, as should be the case at any church! Calling a church that preaches the Bible, and the bible only, as truth equivalant to a place that worships a man such as Muhammad is nuts! Places that preach things other than the Bible are doing just that, not preaching truth, a statement, for which I'm sure I'll catch a lot of flack for typing. I'm not sure why you would call LC a "self help" event, but yes, I would agree that it is a social event... God calls us to not give up fellowship with other believers! He gave us the church, the fellowship of believers so that we could support one another and grow together. If I didn't have Christians praying for me and holding me accountable, then life would be so much tougher than it already is... As for LC being a "hootinany", heck yeah... LC is a blast! I love to go! I know that the praise and worship is going to be awesome, I know that I'm going to get see some of my friends that I haven't seen all week, and I know that Craig's going to preach a message straight from the word of God... and that he's going to explain it in a simple enough way that even I can understand it... and sometimes when I leave, I leave knowing there's an area of my life that needs God's grace and mercy to take hold of it and change it... and sometimes when I leave I'm singing praise songs to God all the way home because I know that God is good all the time, and that He loves me... and that's the most awesome feeling in the world (and I'm sure I look pretty funny to all those people parked next to me at the stoplight, but I don't care!). Heaven's going to be the biggest hootinany there ever was and ever will be... so why not have fun on this journey (even at church!) home to heaven!

I'm a big fan of LC, so please don't take this the wrong way. But, there's a good point I've heard mentioned. If LC suddenly did away with the fancy light shows, the drums and guitars, the loud speakers, the coffee shop, etc. would LC be what it is right now? You think people would still go?

Personally, I think a lot of people wouldn't go. Which leads me to a question....are people really there to worship God, or are they there for the entertainment? The only way we can really tell for sure is to take away all of the things I mentioned above. I think you'd find out real quick that many of the people there are only there for the show. That's the issue I have problems with.

Unfortunately, we are in the final hours. We're in the midst of the church of Laodicea, and we simply have a lot of luke warm Christians, which are riding the fence. I think that's why LC appeals to a lot of people.....it allows them to committ only so far, and people don't have to connect a great deal...they're not forced into anything. They don't have to dig very deep. The message simply skims the surface.

Same thing can be said about the largest church in America, Lakewood Church in Houston. Osteen only preaches the positive parts of the Word. Sure, people like hearing that. But, at the same time, we're losing an entire generation because we're missing the deep and dirty truth.

Folks, it isn't all rosey and good. Sin is pretty ugly in fact, and the feel good churches like to forget that.

BTW, LC does do a good work. Sometimes I feel they fail to go far enough though.

I'm a big fan of LC, so please don't take this the wrong way. But, there's a good point I've heard mentioned. If LC suddenly did away with the fancy light shows, the drums and guitars, the loud speakers, the coffee shop, etc. would LC be what it is right now? You think people would still go?

Personally, I think a lot of people wouldn't go. Which leads me to a question....are people really there to worship God, or are they there for the entertainment? The only way we can really tell for sure is to take away all of the things I mentioned above. I think you'd find out real quick that many of the people there are only there for the show. That's the issue I have problems with.


That's part of my objection Patrick at least on the general scale. It's that many if not most attendees of LC are not there for serious religious worship. They're there to have a social experience. That's not religion, that's entertainment, diversion, and playtime. The other part for me personally is the doctrinal difference.

And actually, OSUPA, the Catholic Church (for the most part) does not believe that the Bible is infallible. It's an imperfect relic describing the life of the son of God. It of course is VERY important, but it's not the end-all/be-all of our existance.

LC also does not buy into a lot of important Catholic principles like the Eucharist, etc. There are enough doctrinal differences for me to say that for a Catholic, attending LifeChurch would be a lot like attending a Mormon church, a Unitarian Church, etc. I'm on solid ground in saying this.

Actually, Midtowner, I ride the fence on the issue, but I agree with you for the most part.

In some regards, I think LC is reaching people that otherwise wouldn't be reached by the typical pipe organ church service. But at the same time, I wonder if the only reason those folks are going is for the entertainment. Would they keep going if the drums and entertainment suddenly disappeared?

I've heard some say that heaven is going to be a bunch of celebrating, jumping up and down, and a big party. But, something inside me doesn't tell me that at all. God is a God of order. He is to be worshiped, yes, but I don't think that means dancing all around his throne and making fools of ourselves. In the Bible it's described more ceremonially. Just look at all of the structure that went into the building of the temple. Look at all of the ritual, etc. We've lost that with changes in culture, but I don't think God has changed since the Bible was written. Something tells me we're to be reverent before God, not throwing a big hullah party.

Look at how all royalty is treated. Do we dance all around our president? Nope. Any dealings with the president are pretty structured and ceremonial.

One thing also to consider....the Catholic church hasn't changed a much with the culture as the Protestant Church has. Many of the rituals practiced in the Catholic church have been practiced for centuries. Goes to show me that back in the times of Jesus, and even before then, services were pretty structured and ordered. We've lost that reverence in many of our services today. It's all about respect, and I don't see how dancing around in flip flops on a stage, with music cranked up, and folks dancing and throwing pop corn is very respectful to a God that demands reverence.

What upsets me about LC is how much of a joke they turn some of this stuff into. Baptism Bash? Give me a break. Baptism is a pretty serious thing, and I think having a big party, dunking people in swimming pools really loses the reverence and the true meaning of baptism.

I never thought I'd say this, but even some of the TV evangelists like Benny Hinn treat ordinances like baptism with more respect than some of our newer generational churches.

Wow Patrick, I wasn't aware that they did those things. That's persuasive stuff.

One more thing, and the I'll get off my soap box awhile. I'm really curious to know how LC practices communion. I really really really place a lot of reverence on communion. I think watering down communion, and making a "bash" out of it, would only disrespect the holy sacrament it's supposed to be.

Wow Patrick, I wasn't aware that they did those things. That's persuasive stuff.

My father-in-law goes to the OKC campus, so I attend every once in awhile. Last time I went I left feeling pretty bad about LC. One of the guys in my medical school class runs the light board at the OKC campus, and all he could do for the 20 minutes or so I talked to him was talk about their light board, how expensive it was, and how impressed he was with it. This really turned me off. Then, I got pretty upset because one of the band members (a guy that just graduated from med school last year) was up on stage barefoot playing his guitar. I just thought that was so disrespectful.

A few years back, I went during their "At the movies" series. I didn't have a problem with Craig, but I thought it was pretty disrespectful that folks took popcorn into the worship center, then threw it around while the band was on stage. I couldn't figure out whether I was at church, or had stepped into a movie theater by mistake....or even worse, a carnival.

I know this is all in a good effort to reach those that wouldn't ordinarly go to a normal church, but sometimes I think LC goes overboard on stuff. People need to know that God is to be respected, and He's not just about parties. Sometimes I leave LC thinking that Christianity is just a big party. They forget to mention that sin is real and that there's more to God than that.

Sure, Craig is real in his preaching, but even his preaching only skims the surface. I don't see how you could really learn the Bible in a setting like that. It's mostly just feel good preaching, and ways to live your life, and stuff like that. Very applicable preaching, but little meat.

My simple opinion is that religion vs. religion debates are sad. Someone once described society as a marketplace for religion. Unfortunately, these "vendors" find they have to bad mouth the opposition in order to gain new "customers".

My opinion of these debates was nicely framed by Bono at a recent National Prayer Breakfast attended by President Bush, members of Congress, and foreign dignitaries. His message was God and aid to Africa, but this last line stuck with me the most:

"Yes, it’s odd, having a rock star here—but maybe it’s odder for me than for you. You see, I avoided religious people most of my life. Maybe it had something to do with having a father who was Protestant and a mother who was Catholic in a country where the line between the two was, quite literally, a battle line. Where the line between church and state was, well, a little blurry, and hard to see.

I remember how my mother would bring us to chapel on Sundays and my father used to wait outside. One of the things that I picked up from my father and my mother was the sense that religion often gets in the way of God."

True...that's points out the other side of the coin that I mentioned, concerning Life Church....those folks that might never hear the Gospel in a typical church setting.

The gospel is preached EVERY Sunday at LC! They are big on letting everyone know that the Bible is truth (which is where mid and I will never agree!), and I get my toes stepped on almost every Sunday by what the message that Craig preaches. He never aplogizes for preaching the Bible, and if he's answering a question with something that is his opinion becuase it's not directly answered in the bible, he will say that without hesitation that it is just that, his opinion! Yes, God demands respect and reverence and I'll be the first to admit that the very first time I went to LC I felt the same as Patrick.. that it was for show to attract people. But I went back one Sunday, and I was challenged like I never was at all the churches I had attended before going there... and I've been nothing but challenged to grow in my faith and walk with God since I've been going back! There's nothing irreverant about having fun in the presence of God. The services aren't disordered and chaotic (o.k., well I guess I missed the popcorn throwing experience), they are loud.... the were designed that way so that people will feel freedom to worship! I feel like I can sing at the top of my lungs praising my Creator and no one around will be bothered by the fact that I can't carry a tune! Craig never skims the surface to make people feel good... I challenge everyone who's in a relationship or wants to be in a relationship to download the "Going all the Way" series podcasts and see if the truth of what it says makes you feel good... because it won't! It will let you know God's stance on relationships and show you just what you need to work on in your life to grow! And what can be deeper than meeting in small group bible studies and delving into the word of God and baring your soul.. weaknesses and problems and all? And, that's something they stress that is an integral part of Christian living... getting plugged into small groups called lifegroups. And then there's the missions opportunities, which are numerous! I had the opportunity to go to NO to aid in Katrina relief... and the experience was indesribeable! I know that there will always be people against what LC stands for, but I challenge anyway who truly listens to what Craig preaches to say that it's merely "feel good, skim the surface" talk!

OSU, if we took away the music, lights, etc. would you still go to LC?

OSU, if we took away the music, lights, etc. would you still go to LC?

If you're being fed through biblical teaching and fellowship with small group ministries, and you have ample opportunities to serve God through missions, etc, what is wrong with capping it off with some great music and exciting worship? I grew up in a church that preached the truth of the bible, but my dad fell asleep every week! My parents are in their 70s, grew up in an evangelical church that is reverent (meaning people were afraid to get excited about God) and are the most God fearing people I know, and they absolutely love coming to LC when they visit from Wisconsin. If you take away the lights and music, Craig would still be a great preacher. If you don't feel comfortable singing, clapping and loudly praising God (like David did), then enjoy your church, where ever it is. But please refrain from bashing another church that is reaching thousands, soon to be hundreds of thousands, for Christ.

And osupa05 is right about Craig's preaching. He keeps it simple so unchurched and seeking people can understand it, but he doesn't water it down. I am challenged every week by Craig's message and the follow-up in my Life Group.

Okie, nice answer, but evasive.

Answer the question. Take away the entertainment value, and would you still attend LC?

Okie, nice answer, but evasive.

Answer the question. Take away the entertainment value, and would you still attend LC?

All other things being equal, probably. I have attended other boring churches out of a sense of duty and/or obligation, and their preachers weren't nearly as good as Craig. So now I'm blessed to have a church where I actually look forward to going every week. You'll never convince me that is wrong, no matter how lawyerly you are.

So you don't like to feel like church is something you're obligated to attend?

I'm not trying to be lawyerly, such a thing would be difficult considering I'm just in my second semester. I'm just trying to get the essence of your opinion. You're being evasive and talking about everything except the question that is being asked.

So you don't like to feel like church is something you're obligated to attend?

I'm not trying to be lawyerly, such a thing would be difficult considering I'm just in my second semester. I'm just trying to get the essence of your opinion. You're being evasive and talking about everything except the question that is being asked.

I did answer you. If you look at the first sentence I said I probably would. But you're asking a hypothetical question. I've attended churches out of obligation, which is fine because the bible encourages us to meet together with other believers. But I havent's always enjoyed the services all that much, even though I may have benefitted from them and worshiped God.

So Mid, how do you choose a church to attend? What are your criteria? Do you just go to the one that is closest to where you live? There must be something besides just obligation that keeps you going back.

It's always the Catholic Church closest to where I live.

Shoot, I'm embarassed for you. You have nothing better to do than get on here and debate people to the ground.
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I told you he would not be interested, although, he could learn a few things. He has an excuse for everything. Like I said in an earlier post, he doesn't care for religion at all, he just wants to debate someone. He sounds like he doesn't need God in his life????
Would you attend a Catholic service? How about visiting a Synagogue or Mosque? You and Jack's words seem more like disrespectful, bigoted attacks on other religions rather than reasoned arguments for your own. How very Christian of you. :rolleyes:

And osupa05 is right about Craig's preaching. He keeps it simple so unchurched and seeking people can understand it, but he doesn't water it down. I am challenged every week by Craig's message and the follow-up in my Life Group.

Craig reminds me a lot of Joel Osteen. Problem with both is that in the midst of keeping it simple, you're simply not getting a lot of Biblical meat. I think staying at Life Church any longer than a year after you'e saved would really stifle your growth as a Christian. There simply isn't a lot of room to grow there, when the pastor doesn't dive very deep into the word.

Would you attend a Catholic service? How about visiting a Synagogue or Mosque? You and Jack's words seem more like disrespectful, bigoted attacks on other religions rather than reasoned arguments for your own. How very Christian of you. :rolleyes:

I personally wouldn't attend a Synagogue or Mosque, because they're not of the Christian faith. I have attended both the Catholic church and Orthodox church many times though. Although I like a more dynamic pastor that preaches on things more relevant to mylife, I have no problem with what those more reverent churches are doing. I applaud their desire to maintain the reverence of God in their services, instead of giving way to a "feel good" culture that drives to be entertained.

Again, there's a question here that really hasn't been answered. Would the 10,000+ people keep attending LC if they did away with the rock band and the coffee shop every Sunday? That goes a long ways to telling you whether people are really there to worship God and learn more about God, or whether they're just their to be entertained, and meet people.

I did answer you. If you look at the first sentence I said I probably would. But you're asking a hypothetical question. I've attended churches out of obligation, which is fine because the bible encourages us to meet together with other believers. But I havent's always enjoyed the services all that much, even though I may have benefitted from them and worshiped God.

So Mid, how do you choose a church to attend? What are your criteria? Do you just go to the one that is closest to where you live? There must be something besides just obligation that keeps you going back.

For me, I pick a church where I mostly agree with their doctrine. Also, I pick a church where I feel I can grow in the faith. I never cared for LC because I felt it was all about "feel good stuff." Doesn't really dive deep into learning the Word of God. Isn't the reason why we go to church to learn about God and worship him? Meeting other folks and socializing shouldn't even be a top priority, although I agree that fellowship is important.

By the way, my sister-in-law and her husband recently left Henderson Hills for St. Elijah's Eastern Orthodox Church. In a way I can't blame them. They were getting tired of the entertainment show every Sunday at Henderson Hills. I guess the final straw was that they started having private baptismal services where you could basically get baptized without anyone there in the audience. It was supposed to accomodate shy people. I also disagree with that. Part of the purpose of baptism is to publiucly make it known to be people that you've given your life to Christ. Christ said, accept me before men, and I'll accept you before my father in heaven. Deny me before men, and I'll deny you before my Father in heaven. Part of salvation is making public the decision that you've made, in front of witnesses.

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/faith-values-open-discussion/70-lifechurchtv-0jackass.gif

I think the personal attacks on Jack need to stop. Although the guy is a little out there in some of his posts, he's entitled to make them. Calling him names like this is a violation of the TOS of OKCTalk.

Again, there's a question here that really hasn't been answered. Would the 10,000+ people keep attending LC if they did away with the rock band and the coffee shop every Sunday? That goes a long ways to telling you whether people are really there to worship God and learn more about God, or whether they're just their to be entertained, and meet people.

Tell you what, Patrick. I'll try to survey the 10K people who attend LC and get a consensus for you. Do you just go to the nearest church that preaches what you believe, or do you have preferences of what type of worship you like or don't like?

You guys don't seem to get it, and apparently never will, that there are personal preferences in how each person wants to worship. I happen to love the music and teaching at Life. If you don't, that's fine. As for not being able to grow in my relationship to God, that just isn't true. I've been a Christian for most of my life, but I've grown more since I started at LC than in the 40 years previous. The key is to not just be a consumer and sit in the experiences every week. Craig strongly encourages every person to get involved in a ministry, in missions and in a Life Group. That is where you really grow, because the small groups allow you to take Craig's teaching and get in deep with others. In fact, to be a member, you have to agree to serve somewhere and be involved in a Life Group.

Although I like a more dynamic pastor that preaches on things more relevant to mylife, I have no problem with what those more reverent churches are doing. I applaud their desire to maintain the reverence of God in their services, instead of giving way to a "feel good" culture that drives to be entertained.

Why do you like a more dynamic pastor? Are they more entertaining? Do they hold your attention better? How is that different from taking it a step further and going somewhere that has more exciting music? None of us defending LC have said we have a problem with more reverent churches. I've maintained all along that the type of worship you choose is a personal preference. It's you guys who are saying that LC is somehow wrong, and that people ONLY go there for the music and atmosphere and "feel good" preaching.

Personally I've thought about attending LifeChurch before mostly because there is a huge lack of people around my age in alot of churches (at least the ones I visited). I know there is supposedly a big group of the late 20s that attend there but the size of the church also makes me wonder especially as I've never cared too much for the places that often use contemporary music or the "show" type of feel.

I think the biggest thing which I dislike of almost all churches is that for those that are just by themselves often times they try to make you feel welcome by going up shaking your hand and asking a few questions about you, most of them never really ever seem to want to know more about you. This type of ordeal has actually made me stop looking for a church for awhile and while I wouldn't mind going out and trying out some other services it just isn't very fun to go to different churches to end up sitting by yourself and just get the polite chatter but nothing else from it. I mean the idea behind the church is to be able to go and give praise to God and Jesus, help strengthen our faith, and also meet others that will not just show up for the services and a few other events but people that will actually become friends with (to help us in times of need or just to go do things with people of similar interests / beliefs).

I guess you can say I've gotten bitter for awhile over this but I know this seems to be a problem in alot of the traditional style churches and I've gotten irritated from some of the more contemporary by the sheer number of hypocritical people I've seen at a few of the ones I've been to. Also the point of going by yourself to a new church isn't always easy to try and fit in with most of the places out there it seems.

From the posts I've read it seems like the "life groups" are a thing towards the right direction in growing your faith (as most of it does need to happen outside of just regular services) but I have seen some of these backfire in other places and some of them are a bit too pushy also (don't know about the ones associated with LifeChurch myself).


Patrick,

As far as the public baptism goes that is one thing I've hated about every church. From what you have stated I don't believe it is the baptism itself that needs to be public but the person's belief is what should be known and portrayed not only by their words but their actions. But alas that is just my interpretation itself especially as I have always been very shy and it shouldn't matter to other people if I have been baptised or not as long as my actions and words are true.

gbyte, I think you should try LC. And don't just go for one week, but give it some time. I definitely understand where you're coming from as far as being alone at a new church, and having a hard time meeting people. But I've been in much smaller churches where it was equally difficult to meet people. I wanted to get involved in a Life Group shortly after I started but was really intimidated, so I just went on the website and signed up for any group, and let God place me where he wanted me to be. It was one of the best decisions I've ever made. I got into an amazing group of people who are such a blessing to me. We have grown to be really good friends, and it's been an awesome experience. There are groups for all ages, singles, married, mixed, etc. There are Access Life Groups where people meet to bike or do outdoor sports or other areas of common interest. There are just so many opportunities if you want to find them. Check out the website (www.lifechurch.tv) and surf around.

There is also something called Mosaic on Tuesday nights. This is a college and singles night where they start out with group fellowship and then break up into smaller groups for bible study. I have friends who go every week and love it (I have my life group that night). It gives you a chance to get to know people better. I suggest going for a few weeks, talking to the people at the info desk (if you go to the N. Penn location, it's what they refer to as the "Airline Ticket Counter") and seeing where you might be able to get involved. With a church the size of LC, involvement is key to developing relationships. Good luck! Come back here with any questions you have.

Do you just go to the nearest church that preaches what you believe, or do you have preferences of what type of worship you like or don't like?

I already answered this question.


You guys don't seem to get it, and apparently never will, that there are personal preferences in how each person wants to worship. I happen to love the music and teaching at Life. If you don't, that's fine. As for not being able to grow in my relationship to God, that just isn't true. I've been a Christian for most of my life, but I've grown more since I started at LC than in the 40 years previous. The key is to not just be a consumer and sit in the experiences every week. Craig strongly encourages every person to get involved in a ministry, in missions and in a Life Group. That is where you really grow, because the small groups allow you to take Craig's teaching and get in deep with others. In fact, to be a member, you have to agree to serve somewhere and be involved in a Life Group.

Again, answer my question. Would you go there if it wasn't for the band?

Do you think going bare foot on stage, throwing pop corn across the audience, etc. is very respectful to God?

Why do you like a more dynamic pastor? Are they more entertaining? Do they hold your attention better? How is that different from taking it a step further and going somewhere that has more exciting music? None of us defending LC have said we have a problem with more reverent churches. I've maintained all along that the type of worship you choose is a personal preference. It's you guys who are saying that LC is somehow wrong, and that people ONLY go there for the music and atmosphere and "feel good" preaching.

I don't think what Life Church is doing is wrong. What I'm saying is that many of the people that go there aren't going for God, they're going for the band...to be entertained. That's the wrong reason to go to church, and God will not bless that.

By dynamic pastor, I mean someone I can learn the meat of the word from. No, not someone that is entertaining. In fact, I actually learn more from pastors that dig deep down into the word, not those that get up and tell a funny story to keep your attention.

Again, my main problem with LC isn't the preaching, it's the disrespect. I've already gone through that.

Patrick,

As far as the public baptism goes that is one thing I've hated about every church. From what you have stated I don't believe it is the baptism itself that needs to be public but the person's belief is what should be known and portrayed not only by their words but their actions. But alas that is just my interpretation itself especially as I have always been very shy and it shouldn't matter to other people if I have been baptised or not as long as my actions and words are true.

If you won't go public before men in your testimony of Christ through baptism, whose to say you're going to have the ability to stick to preaching your faith when things get difficult. Just look at Peter...he denied Christ 3 times. Part of salvation is the public profession that you are indeed saved. I've already stated the scripture on that.

If you're ashamed to proclaim Christ before men, Christ will deny you before the Father in heaven.

Personally I've thought about attending LifeChurch before mostly because there is a huge lack of people around my age in alot of churches (at least the ones I visited). I know there is supposedly a big group of the late 20s that attend there but the size of the church also makes me wonder especially as I've never cared too much for the places that often use contemporary music or the "show" type of feel.

That's another problem I have with LC. It's pretty much all young people. Where the wisdom in the church? I know age doesn't always mean wisdom, but in most aspects it does.


I think the biggest thing which I dislike of almost all churches is that for those that are just by themselves often times they try to make you feel welcome by going up shaking your hand and asking a few questions about you, most of them never really ever seem to want to know more about you. This type of ordeal has actually made me stop looking for a church for awhile and while I wouldn't mind going out and trying out some other services it just isn't very fun to go to different churches to end up sitting by yourself and just get the polite chatter but nothing else from it. I mean the idea behind the church is to be able to go and give praise to God and Jesus, help strengthen our faith, and also meet others that will not just show up for the services and a few other events but people that will actually become friends with (to help us in times of need or just to go do things with people of similar interests / beliefs).

I think they're simply trying to make you feel welcome. Not put you on the spot. Funny that you mention this, because most of the time I hear exactly the opposite....most people get upset when no one talks to them, and they feel ignored.


I guess you can say I've gotten bitter for awhile over this but I know this seems to be a problem in alot of the traditional style churches and I've gotten irritated from some of the more contemporary by the sheer number of hypocritical people I've seen at a few of the ones I've been to. Also the point of going by yourself to a new church isn't always easy to try and fit in with most of the places out there it seems.

Hypocrites are everywhere, and at every church. LC has their own share. Last time I was there, there was a group of guys out in the parking lot drinking up a 12 pack. Strangely, this is the same group of guys I saw worshipping earlier. Now, I don't judge them for what they're doing, but I think it does look hypocritical.


From the posts I've read it seems like the "life groups" are a thing towards the right direction in growing your faith (as most of it does need to happen outside of just regular services) but I have seen some of these backfire in other places and some of them are a bit too pushy also (don't know about the ones associated with LifeChurch myself).

Life Groups are actually the best part of the Life Church. That's the place where you really connect with people, and hopefully where you can learn more about the Word. If you're only going to the service, you're not getting very deep.

By the way, I don't want people to think I dislike LC. Quite the opposite. I've steered many lost people there, simply because I feel Craig is very basic in his preaching (Craig has said before he preaches on a 5th grade level), and it's a great place for people that aren't very educated in the Bible, to learn.


I just think there comes a point where you grow past that point, and have to move on. It's like graduating from elementary school.

I already answered this question.



Again, answer my question. Would you go there if it wasn't for the band?

Do you think going bare foot on stage, throwing pop corn across the audience, etc. is very respectful to God?

I answered the first part of the question for Mid a few posts back. As for the barefoot and popcorn throwing incident, I didn't witness them so I can't speak directly to those issues. I don't condone throwing food in church but I won't condemn a whole church over the actions of a relatively few people.

From LC's website:

What is Baptism?

A Step of Obedience
"Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." - Matthew 3:13-16
Even Jesus submitted to baptism to "fulfill all righteousness" or do everything that is right.
A Symbol of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ
".don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin." Romans 6:3-11
Just as Christ gave His life for us and died, we have also given our lives, and our old self, the person we were before we met Christ, is dead. Just as Christ was resurrected from death, we too come out of the symbolic grave of baptism and are raised to become a new person.
A Statement of Commitment
".if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." Romans 10:9-10
When we confess with our mouth that we believe and trust in Christ we make a statement of faith. Baptism is also a public statement that we have surrendered our lives to Christ and we believe in Him. It is similar to a marriage ceremony. You can tell someone you love them and want them to be your partner for life but a marriage ceremony makes a public statement of what is already in your heart.
"If anyone publicly acknowledges me here on earth, I will openly acknowledge that person before my Father in heaven." Matthew 10:32-33 In summary, baptism is a necessary step of obedience for every follower of Christ. It symbolizes what has happened in our hearts as we give our lives to Christ just as He gave his life for us. After Christ gave His life He was buried and then later raised from the dead as a new person. We too are symbolically buried in a grave of water and come out of the water a new person. We are declaring to the world that we belong to Christ and He is our Lord and Savior.
For a list of Frequently Asked Questions about Baptism, click here (http://www.lifechurch.tv/okc_new/public/about_life/about_baptism_faq.php?rv=12)

This makes LC looks like it's all about fun and games. From their website:

About Worship
We're confident when you come to Life, you will leave saying "I didn't know church could be like that - so fun, so moving." From music you might hear on the radio to teaching that is relevant, LifeChurch.tv is a unique, fresh approach to church.

Hypocrites are everywhere, and at every church. LC has their own share. Last time I was there, there was a group of guys out in the parking lot drinking up a 12 pack. Strangely, this is the same group of guys I saw worshipping earlier. Now, I don't judge them for what they're doing, but I think it does look hypocritical.

So Patrick, you think drinking in and of itself is always wrong then, correct?

The way I see it, that would only be hypocritical of those guys if they said drinking was wrong, then went ahead and did it. They may not see anything wrong with drinking, and there are many schools of thought on that within the Christian community. But that's a topic for another thread.

No drinking isn't wrong, but gobbling down can after can and getting drunk like these guys were doing was wrong. They were also smoking at the same time.

This is at the same time while Craig has preached against this.

No drinking isn't wrong, but gobbling down can after can and getting drunk like these guys were doing was wrong. They were also smoking at the same time.

This is at the same time while Craig has preached against this.

So smoking in and of itself is a sin?

From what I've heard Craig preach (most recent Q&A), he has never condemned drinking. He does say, like the bible says, that getting drunk is a sin. He also said, like the bible says, that it may not be beneficial or edifying, and if it causes someone to stumble, then it is wrong. I think the guys showed very poor judgement in where they did it, and clearly they caused you to stumble, but again, that is a few people.

Bible says to keep the temple of the holy spirit pure. Smoking as well as drinking too much defiles it.

Oh, by the way, LC isn't the only church that has this problem. I think hypocrisy is rampant across all of our churches. I was just pointig out that LC isn't exempt from problems that every other church has. Hypocrisy is the biggest reason for the rift between society and the church.

Bible says to keep the temple of the holy spirit pure. Smoking as well as drinking too much defiles it.

I agree that smoking isn't healthy and the bible wants us to keep our bodies pure. But there are people who are struggling with trying to quit but who haven't been able to yet. I don't believe those people are going to hell just because they have a cigarette. So let's talk about the high level of obesity among Christians. There is no difference between that and smoking or excessive drinking, is there?

As for the hypocricy in the church as a whole, I agree that it can be a problem. I'm glad you acknowledge that it is a problem with most churches, not just LC. Sad, but true.

I agree that smoking isn't healthy and the bible wants us to keep our bodies pure. But there are people who are struggling with trying to quit but who haven't been able to yet. I don't believe those people are going to hell just because they have a cigarette. So let's talk about the high level of obesity among Christians. There is no difference between that and smoking or excessive drinking, is there?

As for the hypocricy in the church as a whole, I agree that it can be a problem. I'm glad you acknowledge that it is a problem with most churches, not just LC. Sad, but true.
Yes, hypocricy is a big problem in most churches. I even know some hypocritical people in my church. Unfortunately, many people use that as a crutch as to why they won't attend church. They say,"I'm not going to go to church because there are too many hypocrites there." What they have to realize is that, in the end, they have to answer for themselves, not for the hypocrites. That's why I don't let the hypocrites bother me. What they are doing is wrong, but I will not let it have any negative impact on my life.

As far as smoking goes, I don't believe it will send you to hell, however, it will make you smell like that you have been there already.

You are right about excessive smoking, eating, and drinking. All of them are habits that destroy the temple of God (your body)

Yes, hypocricy is a big problem in most churches. I even know some hypocritical people in my church. Unfortunately, many people use that as a crutch as to why they won't attend church. They say,"I'm not going to go to church because there are too many hypocrites there." What they have to realize is that, in the end, they have to answer for themselves, not for the hypocrites. That's why I don't let the hypocrites bother me. What they are doing is wrong, but I will not let it have any negative impact on my life.

As far as smoking goes, I don't believe it will send you to hell, however, it will make you smell like that you have been there already.

You are right about excessive smoking, eating, and drinking. All of them are habits that destroy the temple of God (your body)




Right on! I think it was my mother who said "it's better to go to church with hypocrites than to go to hell with them." And good quote on smoking! I like it!