yes LifeChurch has a huge ministry for babies. The OKC campus pretty much has a miniature Disney world for kids and the infants and toddlers section is pretty wild too. They had a theme park company from Florida come build it all

I think people here will just have to agree to disagree. Different strokes for different folks, as they say. For me, it's unbelievable that a church would spend money hiring a theme park company(!) from Florida to build a "miniature Disney World" at their church....err...."campus." Times have changed and some of us have a hard time with Church as just an extension of the need for individuals to be entertained and stimulated at all times. I can't help but go back to the Sermon On The Mount and try to justify any of this. I'm no bible scholar, but I think that's the point, it doesn't take one to see that worship-as-entertainment and theme park companies being hired to build mini-theme parks at church is a long way from the message of Christ. As I said, I think some of us will just have to agree to disagree.

Write, I refer to it as entertainment, not religion. I sometimes refer to it as the "Rock 'n Roll Jeebus" phenomenon.

I have a generally low opinion of these establishments. Of course, my younger brother and his wife attend the Life East location (which I think is the corporate office). These types of 'churches' are more like three-ring circuses than houses of worship.

I see it as part of the 'dumbing down' of America -- religion in particular. Charismatics such as these tend down to look down their noses at more traditional philosophical and academic approaches to faith.

Agreement to disagree is about the best that can be done.

Write, I refer to it as entertainment, not religion. I sometimes refer to it as the "Rock 'n Roll Jeebus" phenomenon.

I have a generally low opinion of these establishments. Of course, my younger brother and his wife attend the Life East location (which I think is the corporate office). These types of 'churches' are more like three-ring circuses than houses of worship.

I see it as part of the 'dumbing down' of America -- religion in particular. Charismatics such as these tend down to look down their noses at more traditional philosophical and academic approaches to faith.

Agreement to disagree is about the best that can be done.
These type of worship services are not entertainment to most Christians, it is worship. We don't attend services to be entertained, we attend to worship God. Nobody wants to sit through a boring, routine, church service on Sunday. When it is the same ole service every Sunday, then it has lost it's savor.

You can call them three ring circuses if you want to, but we will call them houses of praise and worship. Your younger brother has made a good choice on where to worship.

I have read many of your posts, and have concluded that you don't care much for "religion" or "church" in general, nor do you care much for anybody else's denomination except your own.

Randy, you contradict yourself. First, you state that you don't attend these to be entertained and then you say that "nobody wants to sit through a boring, routine church service on Sunday."

Randy, which is it?

Your conclusion from reading my posts is incorrect. I care very much for church and religion, just not Rock 'n Roll Jeebus, the Three Ring Circus, Biblical literalism, and fundamentalist religion in general. The rest is a-ok.

Randy, you contradict yourself. First, you state that you don't attend these to be entertained and then you say that "nobody wants to sit through a boring, routine church service on Sunday."

Randy, which is it?

Your conclusion from reading my posts is incorrect. I care very much for church and religion, just not Rock 'n Roll Jeebus, the Three Ring Circus, Biblical literalism, and fundamentalist religion in general. The rest is a-ok.
I did not contradict myself. Maybe you should read a little closer in to it. I attend a church that believes in praise and worship, raising our arms towards heaven, and singing praise songs to God. The kind you don't like. Evidently, you like a church that just sings a few songs, and then the preacher preaches with no feeling or spiritual guidance. That's boring, and it is not worship to me. If I want entertainment, I'll go home after praise and worship and watch fooball on TV.

Now, if you still don't get it, I really don't know of a way to explain it to you better.

Randy, If entertainment isn't an issue, why did they hire a theme park developer from Florida to design the kids ministry? I was once very much a part of the charismatic scene and was disillusioned by the infighting, church splits to start another church, which split to start three more, ad infinitum. I saw it for what it was - and to me - it wasn't about the Christ of the bible. One thing they all had in common was the entertainment approach to worship. It's not the raising of hands, tongues, etc. that you described, it is the full-blown bands, the fog machines, the giant screens, shall I go on? To deny that these churches are not interested in entertaining its crowd is to deny what is happening before your very eyes. It is entertainment. Now, we have these "franchised" churches (better know as churches run by pastorpreneurs). Interesting article about this bizarre phenomenon:
http://economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5323597

If anyone wants any concessions, they're available at the back of the auditorium. Feel free to eat popcorn and slirp and icee anytime during the experience.

I did not contradict myself. Maybe you should read a little closer in to it. I attend a church that believes in praise and worship, raising our arms towards heaven, and singing praise songs to God. The kind you don't like. Evidently, you like a church that just sings a few songs, and then the preacher preaches with no feeling or spiritual guidance. That's boring, and it is not worship to me. If I want entertainment, I'll go home after praise and worship and watch fooball on TV.

Now, if you still don't get it, I really don't know of a way to explain it to you better.

Randy, sweety, I did read your words, in one sentence, you said it was "entertainment," in the next, you said that you didn't like churches that were "boring."

And here again, you claim that certain types of services are boring.. it is not unreasonable to assume that you are saying that you will only attend a church that is not boring... What is a word that describes something not boring? Entertaining comes to mind..

The pastor at my church, is a brilliant guy. His sermons are well researched -- academic even. I'm worried that they're often above most people's heads. For me, that and the eucharist are all the spiritual food I need.

I'm a musician, and I can deal with the bad (really bad) music. I can deal with the lack of entertainment value, etc. All of that allows me to be more attentive to the message and closer to the meaning of the service.

Jesus' mission was not to entertain and excite you. He came for your salvation. You might want to consider what a vast difference there is between entertainment and salvation.

-- and say hi to the folks in the store in the back that sells t-shirts and other merchandise for me. k?

I will say Life Church has a nice coffee shop in the back. Sorta like Starbucks.

I do say, I think some of the things Life Church does are disrespectful.

For instance, their baptism bashes! How irreverent. Baptism Bash?

Their late service is called High Octane. I can just see now in heaven how we're all going to go to High Octane, ride the carousel, and watch movies on the big screens, etc. I bet God won't even show up. He'll simply be on the big screen and you can watch Him there, whenever you want. Oh, don't worry about being inconvienced. If you want to sleep in and watch the ballgame, feel free to download God's word for the day later on the computer.

I think Life Church is doing a fine job, but at the same time some of their stuff is going a tad bit too far.

Randy, sweety, I did read your words, in one sentence, you said it was "entertainment," in the next, you said that you didn't like churches that were "boring."

And here again, you claim that certain types of services are boring.. it is not unreasonable to assume that you are saying that you will only attend a church that is not boring... What is a word that describes something not boring? Entertaining comes to mind..

The pastor at my church, is a brilliant guy. His sermons are well researched -- academic even. I'm worried that they're often above most people's heads. For me, that and the eucharist are all the spiritual food I need.

I'm a musician, and I can deal with the bad (really bad) music. I can deal with the lack of entertainment value, etc. All of that allows me to be more attentive to the message and closer to the meaning of the service.

Jesus' mission was not to entertain and excite you. He came for your salvation. You might want to consider what a vast difference there is between entertainment and salvation.

-- and say hi to the folks in the store in the back that sells t-shirts and other merchandise for me. k?
Just what I thought, dumplin', you still don't get it. Ay, yes, coming from a "Christian" that uses profanity in his posts. Oh well, say a few "hail Mary's," and you will be just fine. You are right about one thing (for once). Jesus is not here to entertain me, but he is here to excite me. He puts excitement in my life, so that I can go out and spread the Good News about salvation.

" For me, that and the eucharist are all the spiritual food I need."

I finally found the problem. You are not getting fed enough spiritually if the statement above is what you believe.


Hmm., I bet you even question your "pastor" about his sermons. Show me the facts!

Midtowner, do you confess to your priest? I mean, what's the need. Your priest is just as sinful as you are, right? What makes him any higher? We're all imperfect people.

Profanity darling? Where have I used that? I say nothing that can't be said on TV.

The anti-Catholic comments are noted. What are you implying here? Can you make an intelligent comment/arguement, or are your abilities in using the written word limited to swill such as the above?

Let's get back to the fact that you contradict yourself which you seem not to want to admit even though it's plainly obvious. In one sentence, you said:

"We don't attend services to be entertained," and in the next sentence, you said "Nobody wants to sit through a boring, routine, church service on Sunday."

Think really hard back to grade school -- you learned important concepts there. Two (or really one) that will come in quite handy in catching yourself making self-contradictory arguments is/are the differenc(es) between syonyms and antenyms.

You see, a synonym is two things that are the same -- say I say that I'm entertained. I could also say that I was amused. Amused and entertain mean the same thing, thus they are synonyms.

As for antenyms, those two things are diff-er-ent. For example, you said you "Didn't" want to be entertained in one sentence and then you said that you wouldn't go to a boring service. You see.. entertained and bored are diff-er-ent -- they're antenyms.

Now, here's the neat part. Since you used the word "entertain" in a negative context, in other words, you didn't go to be entertained, it would have been the same thing as saying "I don't want to be not bored" (as awkward as it is). Then you turned around and said you wouldn't want to go to a not boreing service... So in essence, you said:

1. 'I don't go to be not bored.' Then,
2. 'I would not go if it made me bored.'

Now that I've spelled that out for you in such a way that first grader could understand it, not allowing for nasty little abstract and complicated terms that might confuse, please address it.

I look forward to your reply.

Why does something that's not boring have to be entertaining. I've been to plenty of chruch services that aren't "entertainment oriented" but aren't boring. Sitting through a service and hearing a monotone preacher read syllable after syllable of the book of Judges is boring. Hearing an enlightened pastor talk about Adam and Eve and how it relates to today's life, is interesting. That doesn't make it entertaining though.

Jack, the difference is that your second preacher doesn't need to have professional musicians, a full time video editing staff, dry ice, etc.

I'd say that the differences are signficant.

I concur.

Kodak moment.

Profanity darling? Where have I used that? I say nothing that can't be said on TV.

The anti-Catholic comments are noted. What are you implying here? Can you make an intelligent comment/arguement, or are your abilities in using the written word limited to swill such as the above?

Let's get back to the fact that you contradict yourself which you seem not to want to admit even though it's plainly obvious. In one sentence, you said:

"We don't attend services to be entertained," and in the next sentence, you said "Nobody wants to sit through a boring, routine, church service on Sunday."

Think really hard back to grade school -- you learned important concepts there. Two (or really one) that will come in quite handy in catching yourself making self-contradictory arguments is/are the differenc(es) between syonyms and antenyms.

You see, a synonym is two things that are the same -- say I say that I'm entertained. I could also say that I was amused. Amused and entertain mean the same thing, thus they are synonyms.

As for antenyms, those two things are diff-er-ent. For example, you said you "Didn't" want to be entertained in one sentence and then you said that you wouldn't go to a boring service. You see.. entertained and bored are diff-er-ent -- they're antenyms.

Now, here's the neat part. Since you used the word "entertain" in a negative context, in other words, you didn't go to be entertained, it would have been the same thing as saying "I don't want to be not bored" (as awkward as it is). Then you turned around and said you wouldn't want to go to a not boreing service... So in essence, you said:

1. 'I don't go to be not bored.' Then,
2. 'I would not go if it made me bored.'

Now that I've spelled that out for you in such a way that first grader could understand it, not allowing for nasty little abstract and complicated terms that might confuse, please address it.

I look forward to your reply.
Gosh, I really don't know how to explain it any clearer to you. My 5 year old nephew understands it better than you do. Go figure.

Yes, you use profanity on your posts. Whether they say it on TV or not doesn't matter. There are all kinds of profanity on TV, but that doesn't make it right.

Your above post makes no sense. You tried to explain it in your "intellectual" way, but I don't think you even knew what you were saying.

If you feel that attending a routine service and saying a few "Hail Mary's" will get you through the next week, then that's your choice. Make sure you take your no-doze pills, because you will need them to stay awake.

Now, since you can't seem to grasp what I am telling you, then I will give up trying, and have an intelligent conversation with someone who does understand, my 5 year old nephew. At least he knows what I'm saying.

Adios. You aren't worth my time.

Randy, where have I used profanity? Perhaps what is profane to you is not to me? I suppose it's a subjective matter -- I'll give you a pass on it.

My above post explains things that are 'the same' and 'different.' I tried to take these very (not) complicated concepts and boil them down to their core meanings so you could see what a contradiction you were trying to convince me of.

Either you didn't read or lack the raw material to comprehend the above...

Then you proceed to attack Catholicism, and in doing so show how utterly clueless you are about that religion. Have you been to a Catholic mass? There are truly all kinds -- charismatic 'new' type of masses exist. Still pretty conservative, but St. John's up in Edmond is damn near a hootinanny.

Randy, the personal insults are so very Christian of you. Way to witness buddy.

I have to agree in this thread - again - with Midtowner. Randy, your anti-Catholicism is sickening. It's one thing for us to question a style of worship. It's quite another to bash the largest Christian group in the world. I am not a Catholic, but frankly, I feel much closer to God at a Catholic mass than I do at a P.T. Barnum produced show with lasers, fog, crying "spirit-filled" preachers, giant screen monitors, etc. Do me a favor: read the Sermon On The Mount (Matthew Chapters 5-7) and tell me who comes closer to that CLEARLY DEFINED mission: the Catholic Church or the Disney churches. I think it's more than clear.

- A former charismatic Christian who woke up to the fakery in Church-As-Entertainment.

----------

I have to agree in this thread - again - with Midtowner. Randy, your anti-Catholicism is sickening. It's one thing for us to question a style of worship. It's quite another to bash the largest Christian group in the world. I am not a Catholic, but frankly, I feel much closer to God at a Catholic mass than I do at a P.T. Barnum produced show with lasers, fog, crying "spirit-filled" preachers, giant screen monitors, etc. Do me a favor: read the Sermon On The Mount (Matthew Chapters 5-7) and tell me who comes closer to that CLEARLY DEFINED mission: the Catholic Church or the Disney churches. I think it's more than clear.

- A former charismatic Christian who woke up to the fakery in Church-As-Entertainment.

----------
First of all, I did not bash the Catholic Church. All I did was point out how routine and unexciting their churches are. Now, if you feel closer to God at a Catholic mass than a spirit filled, high energy worship service, then maybe you need to examine your own life instead of trying to judge mine.

Go ahead and make fun of charismatic churches, but I would rather be around some spirit filled, charismatics than some boring, let's say a few hail mary's, catholics. Again, not bashing catholics, just stating the facts. I have been a Christian, probably longer than you have been alive, so don't try to insult my intelligence by suggesting I read the "Sermon on the Mount." For your information, I have that story memorized.

- an excited, spirit filled Christian, who is sick and tired of phony denominations that claim to "worship."

Ok, now that I have answered Mid's post and answered your post, I am finished.

PS. I hope you guys make it to your "worship" services this morning.

Okay, being the person that I am (not very religious, don't attend church) this will probably be taken with a grain of salt, but I have to put in my 2 cents anyway because that's who I am.

I used to go to the "popular" church in my little town. I tried to fit in, went every Sunday and to Wednesday night youth groups when I didn't have too much homework. All the cool kids went...I'm not making this up, seriously...but I never "fit" with this group. The pastor would go on basically that we were all sinners and going to hell, etc...this was a Baptist church, btw. Anyway, I got really tired of the fire and brimstone crap, the flashy music, the big screens on the wall...what was the point? It didn't actually "mean" anything to me.

I went to a Catholic mass last year with the future mr. bandnerd. It was at St. Joe's downtown. The church was beautiful, the people kind, the sermon very, very meaningful to me at the time (my dad was very ill with cancer and I have questioned faith and religion for a long time, and the sermon was about questioning God's existence during times of pain and crisis...very timely). The music was amazing, listening to the priest sing and chant was nothing like I've ever heard before. I had no idea what was going on when it was in Latin, but the music was something that didn't need explanation. When we greeted the others around us, I felt that the people were actually being heartfelt in greeting the newbie. I have never, EVER gotten that feeling from a popular, charismatic church.

To each, his/her own. Just because you may think it is "boring" does not mean it can't be meaningful to others. We don't all need guitars and strobe lights to keep our attentions focused. I always thought church was for worship and fellowship (though I never got that feeling back at the church in my hometown) not for strobe lights and pizza parties.

As a christian, church to me is not a building or a service (whether traditional or contemporary)... Church is the body of believers, otherwise known as the body of Christ.. the point is not where you meet, but it's all about who you are in Christ! Meet at a traditional place of worship or meet at a contemporary place... the point is, as a christian, pick a place that preaches only the bible to fellowship with other christians! I just got back from New Orleans where 5 months post Katrina there is very little that has changed! The devestation was indescribeable! Who's down there helping these people who lost everything? It's the chruch! The body of Christ is down there donating their time and money to give these people a little bit of hope. It's not about religion down there. It's about bringing God's love to people who need it... which is how it should be everyday of our life with every person that we meet! We made just a tiny, tiny, tiny dent in a problem that's nothing short of God-sized! Quit fighting about whose "church" is better and start showing people the light! In the end it won't be about what "church" you went to, but about the condition of your own heart!

osupa, with all due respect, it's not about whose church is better. It's about one individual claiming at once that he doesn't go to his church becuase it's exciting, and at the same time stating he wouldn't go to a church that was boreing. It's about a certain individual then denying (to everyone's great amusement) that he is contradicting himself. It's about dishonesty and silliness.

Bandnerd makes a point.. what the heck do lasers, big screens, pyrotechnics, etc. have to do with the message of Jesus Christ? Please make a connection.. any connection. For a church that claims to be based in the Bible, I saw nothing in the Bible to suggest that they ought to sell t-shirts and bumper stickers in the backroom for a signficant markup to pay for massive overhead...

Please correct me if I'm wrong...

...then maybe you need to examine your own life instead of trying to judge mine. Pot calling the kettle black...

Matthew 7:1-5

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.


Worship is an attitude and a matter of the heart, not a style of religious practice or a particular church. It's very telling that certain people seem to be unable to worship in "routine and unexciting churches" and rely on the crutch of a "a spirit filled, high energy worship service" to get to a place of worship.

It's also telling that someone who claims to have the Sermon on the Mount memorized seems to be disconnected with some of its basic tenets:
"Blessed are the meek..." (Matthew 5:5)
"Blessed are the merciful..." (Matthew 5:7)
"Blessed are the pure in heart..." (Matthew 5:8)
"Blessed are the peacemakers..." (Matthew 5:9)and then there are those other commands:
"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..." (Matthew 5:44)

And that verse I quoted at the top. (Matthew 7:1-5)
I think the most appropriate response can be found in Matthew 7:20:
"Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

osupa, with all due respect, it's not about whose church is better. It's about one individual claiming at once that he doesn't go to his church becuase it's exciting, and at the same time stating he wouldn't go to a church that was boreing. It's about a certain individual then denying (to everyone's great amusement) that he is contradicting himself. It's about dishonesty and silliness.

Bandnerd makes a point.. what the heck do lasers, big screens, pyrotechnics, etc. have to do with the message of Jesus Christ? Please make a connection.. any connection. For a church that claims to be based in the Bible, I saw nothing in the Bible to suggest that they ought to sell t-shirts and bumper stickers in the backroom for a signficant markup to pay for massive overhead...

Please correct me if I'm wrong...

Lasers, big screens and whatever have everything to do with the message of Jesus Christ if God uses them to reach people who otherwise would go unreached! It, once again, is not about the method... Jesus ate dinner with the sinful tax collector to reach out to him... if it's not sin (no where in the bible does it say that thou shall not use loud music and lights to worship the most high God) then it can/should/will be done to get the word of God out! Some of the most awesome moments in the bible were filled with loud music (the fall of the wall in Jericho), David using instruments and dancing to praise God). It says to make a joyful noise! Just because I wear a sweatshirt that identifies me as going to a certain place to woship doesn't mean that they "needed" my money to because of all the bright lights! Sure, there are electric bills to pay (I'm sure that any place that uses any sort of electric light has to pay one), but if you look at the way some churches are set up (especially ones like Lifechurch, where there are multiple campuses all over the nation) you will find that it is very economical... and that putting a "pricetag" on the salvation of a soul is just another way man puts God in a box! If you will recall, Jesus turned a few fish and a few loaves of bread into a feast! How much more can he then multiple whatever I choose to give, no matter how much or how little it is? The church that I attend is very missions oriented, which is what it's all about... reaching people, equipping them and sending them back out! Mid, I challenge you to go to New Orleans and see how the barriers of denominations have crumbled and how God is moving there!

Lasers, big screens and whatever have everything to do with the message of Jesus Christ if God uses them to reach people who otherwise would go unreached! It, once again, is not about the method... Jesus ate dinner with the sinful tax collector to reach out to him... if it's not sin (no where in the bible does it say that thou shall not use loud music and lights to worship the most high God) then it can/should/will be done to get the word of God out! Some of the most awesome moments in the bible were filled with loud music (the fall of the wall in Jericho), David using instruments and dancing to praise God). It says to make a joyful noise! Just because I wear a sweatshirt that identifies me as going to a certain place to woship doesn't mean that they "needed" my money to because of all the bright lights! Sure, there are electric bills to pay (I'm sure that any place that uses any sort of electric light has to pay one), but if you look at the way some churches are set up (especially ones like Lifechurch, where there are multiple campuses all over the nation) you will find that it is very economical... and that putting a "pricetag" on the salvation of a soul is just another way man puts God in a box! If you will recall, Jesus turned a few fish and a few loaves of bread into a feast! How much more can he then multiple whatever I choose to give, no matter how much or how little it is? The church that I attend is very missions oriented, which is what it's all about... reaching people, equipping them and sending them back out! Mid, I challenge you to go to New Orleans and see how the barriers of denominations have crumbled and how God is moving there!
Excellent post.....very well said.

I fully agree with Scribe when he says:
"Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

I think hundreds of people coming to Christ every week at Life Church is some pretty sweet fruit! That's all that counts at the end of the day. The method and the style are secondary to bringing people to become fully devoted followers of Christ. If people are coming to Christ through quiet music and subdued sermons, that's great! Others, many others, are coming to Christ through Life Church-style worship. It's all the same result. People who were once lost in sin are now going to have eternal life.

Don't know how many of you are Lifers. Was just curious as to what your thoughts were on where LIFE's next campus will be when it is announced next week. I'm guessing either Bethany/Warr Acres area (NW OKC area) or I would like to say downtown. I guess Norman could be a possibility but my top pick I would say West OKC. I know they almost expanded here instead when they expanded to Southside. They definitely need another location more in the Central part of OKC. The OKC campus is to the farthest North part of OKC so makes quite a drive for a lot of people.

I'm guessing either Norman or farther west, like Yukon. I know someone who lives close to downtown and she goes to S. Side because it's easier to get to than North OKC, so central OKC may not be a bad guess either.

Don't know how many of you are Lifers. Was just curious as to what your thoughts were on where LIFE's next campus will be when it is announced next week. I'm guessing either Bethany/Warr Acres area (NW OKC area) or I would like to say downtown. I guess Norman could be a possibility but my top pick I would say West OKC. I know they almost expanded here instead when they expanded to Southside. They definitely need another location more in the Central part of OKC. The OKC campus is to the farthest North part of OKC so makes quite a drive for a lot of people.

Are they growing by merger/acquisition or are they franchising a new location? What's the franchise fee anyone know? This has got to be a hugely profitable venture...

Are they growing by merger/acquisition or are they franchising a new location? What's the franchise fee anyone know? This has got to be a hugely profitable venture...
The Fort Worth, TX campus was a merger with another church. Since the next one hasn't been announced yet, we don't know whether it is a merger or a brand new campus. But I suspect it is new.

Do you have any information about Lifechurch heading for an IPO? I'd seriously be interested.

Do you have any information about Lifechurch heading for an IPO? I'd seriously be interested.

I know you aren't a big fan of Life Church, but let's not go down that road, okay?

franchise fee? it's not a business, it is a non-profit church. if you mean profitable as in bringing unsaved or unchurched people in then I would have to agree but as far as money wise I would have to disagree. My guess is that they will go into an existing shopping center or another church has expressed interest into becoming an affililate. I'm still guessing West OKC

Not for profit?

That's hilarious. Tell me another one.

Not for profit?

That's hilarious. Tell me another one.
We all know you detest religion, and think that a church is a business out to make money, but you are wrong>>>again, but we expect that kind of answer from you.

Guys, debating with Mid is like beating your head against the wall. He debates and makes fun of other people for the fun of it.

What ever happened to churches planting mission churches? Seems like Life Church is just hanging onto these campuses to make more money.

We all know you detest religion, and think that a church is a business out to make money, but you are wrong>>>again, but we expect that kind of answer from you.

Guys, debating with Mid is like beating your head against the wall. He debates and makes fun of other people for the fun of it.

You have got it totally wrong Randy. In any event, I'm quite capable of speaking for myself.

I don't detest religion, I just detest phony religion that takes advantage of gullible people. LifeChurch is not religion -- it's a rock'n roll concert where they talk about some Christian stuff and pass a collection plate.

It's a place that talks a lot about tithing and it's a place that has a really healthy bottom line.

To some extent, it's a personality cult centered around Mr. Groeschel, to some further extent, it's more of a social gathering than a church.

At any rate Randy, I don't really detest it as much as I think it's absolutely silly. If you like it, hooray for you. Personally, I don't need lasers, smoke, and loud music to contemplate my existance.. Strangely, (I guess) I find them distracting.

That aside, LifeChurch is making several people a TON of $$$. Jeebus meets Steven Covey.. It's a great thing. Actually, I'm just sad that I didn't think about it first :)

In 20 years, we'll have something new, and the Lifechurch crowd will be much the same as the folks that take that lady with the pink-beehive hairdo (on Channel 14 I think) seriously.. Who are those people and how in the heck can they afford a TV station!?

Midtowner, You're talking about Paul and Jan Crouch, right? They own TBN and have stations all over the world. Apologetics.com has a zip file with articles from a Three-part/Five-article series from the Orange County Register . The articles expose them as the frauds they are. You can download the zip file with all the OCR articles here:
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/tbnarticles.zip (the file is safe)

What ever happened to churches planting mission churches? Seems like Life Church is just hanging onto these campuses to make more money.

Life Church has and does plant mission churches. They just planted one in Tulsa last year. Not the LC Tulsa campus, but a distinct, fully independent church. And Life's multi-campus approach is not new. It is just what the leadership believes is best for this church, for several reasons.

First, the bible says we are to go into all the world to preach the gospel. LC could save all that money and build one huge building and ask people to come to it. There is nothing wrong with that, but that isn't what LC is all about. And LC isn't going into years of debt to build new buildings. When the South OKC campus started, it was paid for in cash. Isn't that a good thing for a church to accomplish? Apparently not for some of you.

Second, it allows more effective use of staff. With a central staff and central planning team they need less staff on each campus, and they maintain consistency between the campuses. The goals are the same and the message is the same, but each campus has a distinct relationship with the community where it is located. This frees up more money for missions and charity work, which is a huge part of LC.

Third, Christ can change more lives. If LC is going to the people, they are more likely to hear the good news of Jesus's saving grace. The loud music and exciting worship is a tool to bring people in who wouldn't otherwise set foot in a traditional church. That's probably why traditional, mainline churches are losing people right and left, but churches like LC are growing by leaps and bounds, and people are coming to Christ by the thousands every year.

Craig says himself that this is not the best way to do church, but it's the best way for LC. If you prefer to go to your quiet, traditional church where you can contemplate your existance, that's fine. But you should be careful criticizing that which you do not understand.

By the way Mid, I wish I had your connections so I could know the fanancial standing of other churches. You seem to have insight into who is making how much at LC and you don't even attend there. Do you know their accountant?

OkieBear, you seem to truly care about what Life is truly about just like myself. My guess is that it will be a merger or remodel of an existing building in West OKC. Before they built South OKC, they seriously looked at West OKC. Craig announced so far the only new construction planned this year is the new Stillwater location, therefore my conclusion that it would have to be a merger or remodel of existing building. Life is on the far extreme sides of the city far far North OKC and in South OKC. They need something more centrally located. As you know Life is also heavily missions oriented, they even ask that if you join as a member that you go on at least one missions trip a year or if your physically unable to to help fund one if you can. They are also the only church I know that says if your an adult in need of food, clothing or shelter to take out of the offering. I don't think they preach or make you feel guilty if you don't tithe, or give offerings as much as most traditional churches do, but that's just my experience. It's truly reaching out to a new generation in a modern world. Just like in business, you can't do business the way you did it two years ago because of global competition, etc. The same goes with church, you can't do church the way you've always done it. Acts 2:47 says, “…And the LORD added to the church daily..” Jesus is the Foundation, the Owner and the Builder of the church of called-out believers.

In conclusion, I respect whatever stance one wants to take on Life or church in general. It is not my job to judge or condemn anyone, but merely love them unconditionally. I invite all to worship freely at LC dispite disagreements at times.

Actually Okie, I have no 'insight.' Is any really needed when I can see with my own eyes what is going on? A lot of kids giving 10% of everyhting they make to a rock 'n roll jeebus display complete with laser lights and fireworks.

I'd love for LC to make a general accounting available to its membership... do they? The churches I've attended (Catholic ones) have published such information in the Parish bulletin.

A lot of kids giving 10% of everyhting they make to a rock 'n roll
jeebus display complete with laser lights and fireworks.

I don't see how that's any different than spending 10% on expensive statues of Mary and the saints, expensive pipe organs, stained glass windows (aren't cheap), intricate architecture (yup, most catholic churches are pretty inside), marble altars, solid silver communion equipment, pastoral robes for every occasion, robes for all the nuns, etc. etc.

Patrick -- how many Catholic churches have you been inside? Most of the furnishings (except for in very wealthy parishes) are pretty old. Most do not have the things you're talking about unless the intricate architecture, etc. was something that was 'in style' when the building was erected.

I attended St. John's in Edmond as well as St. Monica's -- both had stained glass as you say, but in both cases, the windows were purchased or removed from other churches that were being demolished or sold.

As for vestments, if you've seen them, most are pretty darned old. In many cases, the priests share vestments.

The most intricate architecture that I know of in an Oklahoma Catholic Church can be found over at St. Joseph's (downtown). As you might know, after the '95 bombing, donations specifically earmarked for the rehabilitation of that building rolled in from all over the country. For the most part, the restoration simply made the building as it originally was -- a nice structure, but hardly build of marble and gold leaf.

The most intricate architecture that I know of in an Oklahoma Catholic Church can be found over at St. Joseph's (downtown). As you might know, after the '95 bombing, donations specifically earmarked for the rehabilitation of that building rolled in from all over the country.


How is that different from LC where people give offerings, above and beyond their tithes, for new campus development. This is not money that is being taken from other ministries. It is given voluntarily by people like me who support the vision of LC to reach as many people across the country and across the world as possible with the gospel of Jesus Christ. At one time, the Catholic church had to change. You said yourself that some of them are rowdier (can't remember the exact term you used) than others. Do you propose all Catholic churches go back to nothing but Latin, and Gregorian chants? LC is changing with the times, using modern technologies and methods, while still telling the same simple message of Jesus love.

How is that different from LC where people give offerings, above and beyond their tithes, for new campus development. This is not money that is being taken from other ministries. It is given voluntarily by people like me who support the vision of LC to reach as many people across the country and across the world as possible with the gospel of Jesus Christ. At one time, the Catholic church had to change. You said yourself that some of them are rowdier (can't remember the exact term you used) than others. Do you propose all Catholic churches go back to nothing but Latin, and Gregorian chants? LC is changing with the times, using modern technologies and methods, while still telling the same simple message of Jesus love.
Exactly. I could not have said it better myself, OkieBear.

"This is not money that is being taken from other ministries. It is given voluntarily by people like me who support the vision of LC to reach as many people across the country and across the world as possible with the gospel of Jesus Christ."

That's the key word...voluntarily. I don't give because I have to, I do it because I want to help spread the simple message of Jesus Christ.

I was in today to get my taxes done, and am fortunate enough to be able to claim my tithes and offerings to my church as a deduction. Some have asked me if I would still give, if I was unable to use it as a deduction on my taxes. Yes, I would. It has nothing to do with taxes, it has to do with giving to further the Kingdom of God.

The big recent change in the Catholic Church came in the 60's during Vatican II. It was at that time that the rules were changed so that the mass could be said in the vernacular language instead of Latin. As far as the "Latin and Gregorian Chants," first off, Gregorian chant is in Latin. Second off, it was never just those things. Those are just famous forms of music pioneered by the Church. Gregorian Chant is still popular today, and many (most) Catholic churches (and many others) still use parts of the Latin mass, Latin chants, etc.

As far as "changing with the times," the change you're talking about is superficial. The Catholic churhc changed from Latin to the vernacular so that people would understand what was being said in the mass. Lasers and smoke and videos do not help with comprehension, they're just ploys to get your attention. Someone that is serious about their religion should not rely on such crutches to hold their attention -- don't you think that the subject is interesting enough on its own?

St. James just got through going through a very expensive renovation. Place looks fancy inside. Marble floors, marble reflecting pool with holy water, brand new stain glass windows. Is all that really necessary?

Not at all Jack..

Of course, there is something to be said for beautiful architecture.

On the other hand, are you going to even try to question the Catholic Church's record on charity? :)

The big recent change in the Catholic Church came in the 60's during Vatican II. It was at that time that the rules were changed so that the mass could be said in the vernacular language instead of Latin. As far as the "Latin and Gregorian Chants," first off, Gregorian chant is in Latin. Second off, it was never just those things. Those are just famous forms of music pioneered by the Church. Gregorian Chant is still popular today, and many (most) Catholic churches (and many others) still use parts of the Latin mass, Latin chants, etc.

As far as "changing with the times," the change you're talking about is superficial. The Catholic churhc changed from Latin to the vernacular so that people would understand what was being said in the mass. Lasers and smoke and videos do not help with comprehension, they're just ploys to get your attention. Someone that is serious about their religion should not rely on such crutches to hold their attention -- don't you think that the subject is interesting enough on its own?

If new ways of doing things are bad, then why did the Catholic church need to pioneer new music? Wasn't the old music good enough to keep people's attention? You even admit that they are still used because they are still popular. The Catholic church changed from Latin to the vernacular to better fit into the culture in which is it located. Hispanic churches play hispanic music because that is the culture of the people who attend there to worship God. LC is filling a niche to draw in the MTV/video generations who have been turned off by traditional churches. As I've said previously, the message is the same. The method of delivery has changed to reflect the times. If you can show me where LC has watered down the message, I might agree with you. But the fact is, LC is probably more in your face than most churches out there. The coffee bar and music make you feel comfortable, then Craig hits you between the eyes with the truth of the gospel of Christ.

Before the Catholic Church pioneered music, there really wasn't music. Okie, have a bit of historical perspective. In the middle ages when such things developed, there was no real popular secular culture -- the religious culture was the only culture. Therefore, all painted art, all music, all sculpture and architecture (with the exceptions of portrait work done for important heads of state) was done soley for the church.

In more recent times, in the 60's, people did not understand Latin, and they lacked the historical/educational perspective to comprehend this. The Church under Pope John XXIII decided that tradition for the sake of tradition was a foolish path and we had Vatican II.

Don't sell your generation short (that's what you're doing by saying that lasers and smoke are all they can connect to). This generation is every bit as smart and every bit as educated as any that preceded it. Using special effects and video is a far cry from switching to a language that the church-goers actually understand (I believe that is the argument that you're attempting to make).

A serious devotee should consider their religion to be a serious endeavor that requires devotion, contemplation, and study. The Steven Covey meets TBN approach that mixes secular principles with the interest of self-expansion of the church with a dab of Biblical quotation here and there hardly approaches that.

As far as "changing with the times," the change you're talking about is superficial.

There's nothing superficial about a God who calls to deepest part of your being, who calls you to chase after Him with every ounce of your mind, heart, body and soul!

Mid, just out of curiousity, have you ever been to LC? You and furture Ms. Mid should come sometime! If you still believe after attending that the message of Christ is watered down and superficial, then hold to your stance.... pm me if you should decide to try it out, and I can get you the times, or even meet you and future Ms. Mid there, if you want!

A serious devotee should consider their religion to be a serious endeavor that requires devotion, contemplation, and study.

That may be true, Mid. But Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:31-32 TNIV

LC is there to bring new people to Christ. If "serious devotees" want to worship in a traditional church, that's great. But those who are not yet believers (the sick) may need something to grab their attention and get them in the doors so they can meet the Great Physician.

Just curious.....when Jesus drove out the moneychangers in the temple, was that not somewhat telling the church to be a bit careful about church gift shops, coffee bars, t-shirt sales, etc.?

There's nothing superficial about a God who calls to deepest part of your being, who calls you to chase after Him with every ounce of your mind, heart, body and soul!

Mid, just out of curiousity, have you ever been to LC? You and furture Ms. Mid should come sometime! If you still believe after attending that the message of Christ is watered down and superficial, then hold to your stance.... pm me if you should decide to try it out, and I can get you the times, or even meet you and future Ms. Mid there, if you want!

Actually, LC is designed to be superficial and watered down. Craig doesn't get in depth in his messages. I've never heard an indepth one. They're all pretty basic. But, that's the whole niche LC is trying to fill: new Christians.

Just curious.....when Jesus drove out the moneychangers in the temple, was that not somewhat telling the church to be a bit careful about church gift shops, coffee bars, t-shirt sales, etc.?

No, Jesus was referring to folks that were doing things other than church-related stuff. They were selling stuff that was completely outside the realm of the church.

Just curious.....when Jesus drove out the moneychangers in the temple, was that not somewhat telling the church to be a bit careful about church gift shops, coffee bars, t-shirt sales, etc.?
... and bingo and raffles and bake sales? It's a valid question, ranger. But I think the problem with the money changers in the temple was that they were cheating people when they sold them animals they needed for sacrifice. If LC was charging people outrageous prices for items that they needed to worship then you might have a valid point. But they are selling things that people voluntarily purchase, and based on the prices I've seen, LC is making little if any money on each item. And again, these are voluntary purchases rather than things needed for worship.

Also, those folks were practicing these things in the middle of the temple where worship was supposed to go on. Most of these bake sells aren't held in the middle of the church sanctuary.

Also, they're honest, and most of the proceeds often go to fund things in the church, like charity work.

Jesus was referring to people that were dealing money in the sanctuary of the church, when they should've been worshipping.

There's nothing superficial about a God who calls to deepest part of your being, who calls you to chase after Him with every ounce of your mind, heart, body and soul!

Mid, just out of curiousity, have you ever been to LC? You and furture Ms. Mid should come sometime! If you still believe after attending that the message of Christ is watered down and superficial, then hold to your stance.... pm me if you should decide to try it out, and I can get you the times, or even meet you and future Ms. Mid there, if you want!
Funny, osupa05. You really think MidTowner has any interest in LC? No way. He just wants to find someone to debate with. It will be a cold day in Hades before he even attempts to go to LC. He would rather go to a dull church and stay in the usual dull routine.

Actually, LC is designed to be superficial and watered down. Craig doesn't get in depth in his messages. I've never heard an indepth one. They're all pretty basic. But, that's the whole niche LC is trying to fill: new Christians.

Basic is a far cry from watered down... unless I'm the only "old" christian who has lots of stuff to work on in my life! I rarely walk away from an experience without having had my toes stepped on, so to speak.... He preaches God's word in a way that someone who's never heard the message can understand it and someone who's heard it million times hears it again like it's the first time! There are many things that Craig has preached on that I've heard a dozen times, but the way it's presented... basic and simple still hits me like a ton of bricks at times! Maybe it's just me, but after His hearing his messages, I want to change to be more like Christ. I want to chase after God and find out what He's all about. I want to live everyday in His mercy and grace, so filled with His light that when people look at me, He's all they see! And, I love going back every week, because I know that God's moving in a mighty way, and I want to be a part of bringing God's love to the world!