This is the song that never ends......

Nice to see I haven't looked at this thread in days and I come back to exactly the same never ending lambchop conversation that was there when I left. It's like a soap opera.

"Life Church sucks"
"No it doesn't"
"Yes it does"
"No it doesn't"

"Mom, he's touching me"
"She started it"

Gawwwd people....If you want to know more about Life Church WHY DON'T YOU ACTUALLY GO TO ONE. Their website is pretty self explanatory also. If you don't like them then don't go. If you like pancakes go to IHOP. If you like pina coladas and getting caught in the rain.......

Wait, what were we talking about??
Oh yea...

I just wanted to share that I couldn't tell you what songs we sang at church Sunday, but I do remember the sermon. It was very good. And guess what...it wasn't even Craig that did it!!! Imagine that. Life Church does still exist when he isn't there, and people actually came and listened. hmmm...

Metro, no one ever said you were sinning by franchising. I don't know where you got that.

kmf, the point of a message board is to discuss topics. We are simply discussing LifeChurch's (and other churches) strategies and methods. Currently we are discussing the issue of church planting.

Okey doke...I've kept my nose out of this one, but I feel compelled to add that franchising churches has been around for a long, long time. The Roman Catholic church perfected the technique, and while it helped spread Christianity around the globe, it has had some negative consequences. (and please don't tell me that Catholics are not Christians)

kmf, the point of a message board is to discuss topics.

really? wow. thanks. :bow:

imagine that. life church does still exist when he isn't there, and people actually came and listened.

...and still can't use scripture to back up its doctrine. -M

ummm, yea there was...
This week the scripture was Luke 15

guess you mean for the entire church doctrine or being huh...guess that's what i get for half way paying attention. oops! sorry.

I didn't realize that every single thing a church does has to be a direct order from God and based on doctrine. Has anybody ever found the scripture that says why Church of the Servant has to spend millions of dollars to bring plants inside the church?? Just curious. And thank you tim for butting in (although you will regret it, i assure you - i'm kicking myself daily) but I believe he is right about the Catholics. And gee what a connection since Life Church is Catholic based...hmmm.

Is biting sarcasm part of the Lifechurch doctrine? I guess I missed that lesson when I was attending there. What's its scriptural foundation?

kmf... you might tone down the sarcasm a bit, it's kinda hard to see where you're driving at... i (for one) can't tell where you're being serious and where you're being facetious, especially around the 'catholic' section of your response.

i'll agree that there are certain matters where the church is given liberty in matters that are not directly dictated by the word of god. while i'd say that spending millions on plants isn't really a great allocation of assets and i would seriously question any congregation who sets their priorities on such a thing, i'd say that it's not really a doctrinal issue in itself.

what i'm referring to is the lack of substance in lifechurcher's arguments to support some of the core things they (and other evangelicals) believe. i believe we had a discussion in this thread a few weeks ago about lc doctrine and the best argument you could present in defense of lc's beliefs was "i don't read it that way." you weren't able to show any example from scripture supporting your argument. while lc reaches alot of people through it's methods, i don't think that it fosters a good understanding of what the scriptures say. -M

m -

I believe I did go through the scripture of what we were specifically talking about - without going back, I believe it was the book of Acts. As I remember, it's not that I didn't supply the information it was that you didn't agree with it and I said I wanted to just let it go and agree to disagree. Obvioulsy you can't do that. And I believe the argument was about being saved, not the church doctrine.

kmf, don't get me wrong it's nothing personal and i haven't lost any sleep over it... just a side effect of having a ridiculously good memory.

while i did let it go, it still doesn't change the fact that you chose to 'bow out' of the discussion rather than burdening yourself to explain your interpretation of that scripture. you disagreed, but couldn't or wouldn't provide any scriptural basis for that disagreement.

the very nature of salvation ('being saved') is a matter of church doctrine and core belief. if how, when and why a person is 'saved' is not church doctrine, what is? -M

I'm still baffled by the comment that LifeChurch is based on Catholicism...

^ me, too... but i'm not sure if that was serious or sarcastic. -M

Honestly, I'm quite lazy. haha. I bowed out of the conversation because I didn't feel as though anything was getting accomplished and it was a really indepth serious topic. I pop in and out of here while I am at work and just really don't have the time to look up the scriptures and things I want to use. I wish I could say I have all the answers and know the Bible by heart, but I just don't. I only have my opinions and things I learn along the way. And again, I really do understand where you are coming from and agree with some of your valid points.
Sorry! I know it's horrible and I shouldn't start things I can't finish.

Still nothing about your Catholic comment??

sorry....it wasn't sarcasm. I should have said very loosely based though. Craig was raised Catholic and has a lot of the same views, we have communion, we have the same administrative hierarchy, so there are a lot of things based or common with the Catholic community. We actually discussed this at church once upon a time...if I have time this afternoon I will look and see if I can find more info to show what I am talking about since I did just throw it out and there and confused a lot of you. And please don't think I am trying to say we are Catholic - all I am saying is that when you are raised a certain way you tend to carry those views with you and if you lead people by those views they tend to shine through. Does that make sense??

Communion isn't exactly exclusive to Catholicism.

kmf, I think you're a little off that saying lifechurch.tv has a similar hierarchy to the catholic church, in fact I'd say the church is far from it. that's why its proven so effective. I'm not sure about Craig's Catholic background either, I'd have to get back with you on that one.

kmf, I think you're a little off that saying lifechurch.tv has a similar hierarchy to the catholic church, in fact I'd say the church is far from it. that's why its proven so effective. I'm not sure about Craig's Catholic background either, I'd have to get back with you on that one.

I usually don't know much about the Lifechurch stuff discussed here, but I DO KNOW that Craig went to Oklahoma City University, which would be a strange choice if he was really raised Catholic.

----------------

kmf, it's not that horrible... i'd even say you went through more lengths to explain than any other pro-lifechurch person posting in this thread. we all have our opinions... to me, though, it's more important that one's opinion has a basis in scripture rather than what just 'feels' right by intuition or emotion.

i would say that the notion of communion and administrative hierarchy are quite different in lifechurch than it is in the catholic church....

as far as i know, lifechurch doesn't have any form of 'priesthood' that is separated from the 'laity'. while one could argue that craig acts as a central figure to the church's structure, the nature of his authority and such is entirely dissimilar to that of the pope. e.g., i really doubt that craig would claim to be the 'successor to the prince of the apostles.'

furthermore, communion takes a different role in the catholic church. there, it is a rite that is performed by an ordained priesthood. the catholic faith teaches transubstantiation... the idea that the emblems of communion are actually transformed into the physical blood and body of christ when the priest goes through the right motions. it would shock me if lifechurch taught that doctrine...

not to be picky, but wanted to set that straight. -M

...that's why its proven so effective.
while the methods have proven effective in attracting large numbers of people to lifechurch services, i don't think anyone has come anywhere close to proving that lifechurch is effective in producing devoted followers of christ who truly know and understand the scriptures they claim to believe in. i still challenge the lifechurch supporters here to back their doctrine up with sound interpretation of scripture... something that really hasn't been done here. -M

while the methods have proven effective in attracting large numbers of people to lifechurch services, i don't think anyone has come anywhere close to proving that lifechurch is effective in producing devoted followers of christ who truly know and understand the scriptures they claim to believe in. i still challenge the lifechurch supporters here to back their doctrine up with sound interpretation of scripture... something that really hasn't been done here. -M

Note to self...neverevereverever debate mmm.

Oh I've been looking and looking for what I'm wanting to explain why I said that and I just can't find what I am wanting. As for the set up of the church, I was speaking more of the general administration, not so much the titles. But I very much see what you guys are saying and would agree with your assessment. I'm okay with saying I am wrong.

And m - this is the only thing I can offer you for scriptures that go with LC and their doctrine. If it helps, great, if not...I don't know what to tell you. This is what we believe and the scriptures we based our beliefs upon.

| LifeChurch.tv (http://www.lifechurch.tv/p/734/Default.aspx)

kmf, i've read that but thanks for posting it.

tim, thanks... i think. ; )

-M

Well said Tim, no matter what you "scriptural evidence" you give mmm, he won't be pleased. Just like kmf's post above, the churches official beliefs (including scriptural references) have been given to mmm many times but he seems to ignore them and push them aside. he's wanting to hear a different story so he can prove he's right.

thank you metro.

well, m exactly what are you wanting then if you have read that? Maybe we just aren't getting exactly what it is you are looking for.

metro, but the scriptures given on that page only give part of the story. your core of beliefs takes those verses out of context and contradicts other scriptures in the bible. i can accept that some verses can be interpreted in multiple ways, but metro, you've rarely if at all quoted scripture in your arguments supporting lifechurch and its practices.

i'm wanting to 'hear a different story'? since all i've ever asked for is scripture... what's that even supposed to mean? -M

Well said Tim, no matter what you "scriptural evidence" you give mmm, he won't be pleased. Just like kmf's post above, the churches official beliefs (including scriptural references) have been given to mmm many times but he seems to ignore them and push them aside. he's wanting to hear a different story so he can prove he's right.
Actually, I was reminding my self that mmm is quite a poster, and that it would not behoove me to cross swords with him. Of course, the same applies to you metro!

Sorry I still just don't get what you are wanting. All scriptures in the Bible can be taken out of context and mean something different than what you want them to mean...I think we argued this before...LOL. I enjoy debating with you mmm, but I just am not patient enough to do it. So...at this point I say "uncle" :tiphat:

Sorry I still just don't get what you are wanting. All scriptures in the Bible can be taken out of context and mean something different than what you want them to mean...I think we argued this before...LOL. I enjoy debating with you mmm, but I just am not patient enough to do it. So...at this point I say "uncle" :tiphat:

That's the point I made in another thread, for every 'tit' there is a 'tat' no matter WHAT religion, church, doctrine, denomination, etc.

------------------

while i realize the following is just rhetorical at this point... i guess what i was looking for was just some scriptural justification that fills in some of the discrepencies i've pointed out between lifechurch's doctrine and what the scriptures say. while lifechurch's site (like any other) just hits the high points of what the church believes, i was hoping to hear from some of those that attend lc or have like faith to fill in those blanks with their own words and scriptural references. while i appreciate that some scripture can be interpreted a multitude of ways, some of it (like acts 2), i just don't see how some arrive at their conclusions... i truly am curious to understand.

don't get me wrong... i'm grateful to live in a country where every person can express their faith and beliefs (or not) as each individual sees fit. however, i also think that that right doesn't shield us from the responsibility of explaining and defending the beliefs that we hold, whatever they may be. giving and taking criticism helps us to better understand others' beliefs as well as our own.

keep in mind that i continue to see this thread in the context of a 'faith and values' discussion about lifechurch and its doctrine and practices... in pretty much any other context, i wouldn't be anywhere nearly as critical... so don't get the impression that if i bumped into a lifechurcher on the street that i'd instantly start spouting off these concerns.

in any event, it's been fun... can't wait till the next bit of lc 'news' gets posted here. ; )

-M

So is Craig like Peter or Paul? I've asked for a scriptural defense of church franchising and I get the same answer: "t saves money, it cuts overhead, it makes sense, it streamlines, it makes things efficient, etc."

What I don't get is mush Church history, New Testament or even the Old Testament. The Bible is replete with examples of people drawing large crowds... but it is also replete with examples, explanations, boundaries and warnings for church bodies to heed.

I'm not sure how else to phrase it than that.
If there is no biblical defense then why would you do anything in His name if you don't have His blessing? If there is a biblical defense then someone should post it because as mmm and myself keep getting zero answers to the same simple question... one can only draw one conclusion. There is no biblical/scriptural defense for the reasons why LifeChurch.tv franchises.

mwmcl, have you provided biblical/scriptural evidence on why you think "franchising" is wrong? The same with making an efficient organization and utilizing resources wisely. One thing you forget is that I never claim I have all the answers, and know my Bible verses by memory as well as I would like or you would like me to. But I do the best I know how, and point you to the right place at our church or to an online sermon (by various pastors at our church) that DO PROVIDE SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT and that you can also take it into the context in which it was first written and how the messenger is presenting it. Not only the messenger who wrote the scripture, but the "messenger" who is preaching on it at our church. This never seems to be enough for you or mmm nor do you claim to have ever watched the evidence you have ever been provided. I highly encourage you to read our churches blog written by our various pastors each day. They almost daily include scriptural support. But you probably dismiss that as well and don't read it. We do provide you evidence/support/beliefs, its just not always in the method you desire. But I do the best we know how. A person can have all the head knowledge of the Bible they want to and know it by memory, but God looks at the heart. Many people will miss heaven by these 18 inches (head to heart). I think many people are judging lifechurch by the head, not the heart. For a member of 9 years, I know the heart of myself, and my church leadership.

Here is one scripture for you, Acts 2:42 "42They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved."

Lifechurch.tv regularly practices this "breaking of the bread" with believers and non-belivers. These small groups we call lifegroups and are usually groups of people with alot in common and meet in homes/coffee shops/ etc. on a daily basis and just do life together. I have heard too many stories of people in our lifegroups that have given their own things for those in need, cars, jobs, food, money, house, etc. many giving wrecklessly and freely to meet others needs not only financially, but emotionally, spiritually, etc. , that is why our church doesn't go into debt to build/renovate for a new campus, church plant, etc. And I don't think there is any question that the Lord adds to our numbers daily. Not just people who are "church shopping" but new believers. We have hundreds get saved weekend. That sure sounds pretty Acts 2 to me.

where to start? just because i've gone through lifechurch material and still lack answers to some questions and disagree with some conclusions, metro would believe that i haven't looked. metro's short memory forgets that i sat through a video he chose and i came back here and discussed the strong and weak points of it. besides that, these sermons don't exactly go into detail as to what lifechurch doctrine is... they address a religious viewpoint on specific issues. i also realize that the church has a blog and have not only read it, i've posted on it a couple times. my questions don't come from a lack of examining lifechurch materials.

the issue has nothing to do with receiving answers in a method i (or anyone else) desires. while i've found some answers on the site, i find it interesting that the lifechurch supporters here continue to point me there for the answers. that's fine to a point, but can't why can't people answer for themselves in their own words? do they even know what they believe and who they are affiliated with... or do they just let the church think and interpret scripture for them?

while i conceded some of my concerns about communion with the evidence given to me, there are other questions (like salvation) that are simply left unanswered. i'm not pointing fingers at any individual, but not one lifechurch supporter here can refute the scriptural evidence made here that appears to contradict their doctrine. the best any of you knows how is to point somebody to a website or blog or a video sermon? it concerns me when a group of people appear to have such little knowledge of the scriptures that they can't use them to support their beliefs.

why shouldn't people judge lifechurch by the head? when paul approached the bereans, they judged his message by the head and not the heart. they searched the scriptures to make sure that what he was claiming was true... they didn't just 'feel' that he was right with their hearts and decide to go along wit his claims.

just because it's claimed that lifechurch practices communion and its members practice charity is irrelevent to any discussion about lifechurch doctrine. those are good things, but that has no relation to the way lifechurch interprets scripture. people do good works every day without ever believing in god. besides that, it's been shown in this very thread (and not refuted) that some of lifechurch's doctrine contradicts parts of acts 2.

-M

hold on. i need popcorn.........

ok. continue.

i'm going to regret this.....

while you continue searching for the answers you will never receive, because they simply do not exist..ponder this - maybe the reason why we attend church is to educate ourselves about scripture. Not all of us go the route of complete background investigations and/or analyzing the church doctrine before we choose where to attend. Most of us also do not try to memorize the Bible before we start attending church. Therefore...it is not and should not be expected that we have all of the answers for you. If you want those things, seek them for yourself and quit asking us to provide them for you. Obviously it just isn't as important to us as it is to you. And before you begin to talk about how we can go to a place and believe in things that we aren't familiar with let me present this idea to you...I have attended numerous denominations and churches before choosing LC. To name a few - baptist, methodist, mennonite, catholic, non-denominational, etc. and I didn't do background investigations on them either - but I know I didn't agree with things I heard in the sermons, nor did I agree with the gossip that went on afterwards, and I also didn't agree with being told I was going to go to hell for not thinking the exact same way they did. But in the years that I have attended LC, I have agreed with almost every thing I have learned or listened about. The things I didn't agree with, I presented to the pastor and we openly discussed the topic until we resolved the questions. Sometimes he made sense, and sometimes I made sense to him.

So here is a question for you...before you put gas in your car, do you investigate the company that provides that gas and could you tell us what evidence they provide to back up their company creed and/or reasoning in doing things they do? I for one would love to see the documentation on why their prices are so high. No, you didn't do that? How can you buy gas from someone when you don't even know what they believe in????

Get my point?

Why do I keep coming back to this thread??

TGIF

while the gas comparison really isn't apples to apples since there's a big difference in where i choose to get gas and where i choose to go to church, i do see where you're coming from on not knowing church doctrine up front. it's certainly fair that some people are searching for those answers and don't have them before picking a church. i've no problem with that.

however, it has been claimed several times that lifechurch is a 'new testament church' that abides by scripture. if that claim is being made, then i don't think that it's unfair to ask those who make that claim to back it up when scriptural evidence is presented that seems to show otherwise.

to use your gas station analogy, it's as if you claim that your gas station is the best and does everything in accordance to the law. i point out some areas that your gas station may not be operating in accordance to the law. in response to that, i'm shown marketing literature from your gas station and links to videos of its ceo. however, i'm not shown how your gas station isn't breaking the laws i've brought up.

the answers to the questions i'm asking don't exist? that really doesn't make sense. for example, we were discussing the nature of salvation. lifechurch teaches that salvation comes as soon as someone confesses christ in their hearts. i showed that acts 2 appears to teach otherwise... and then... no response. that's not a question that doesn't have an answer. you may have a different answer than me, and i may disagree with that answer, but the answer does exist. i'm not saying that i have it, but there is a correct interpretation of that chapter. make sense?

i will agree... tgif.

-M

I'm not sure why the burden shifted to me to provide evidence against franchising. In all the epistles, letters, early church books, history books, manuscripts, etc. I've ever read I don't see churches operating like corporations - franchising.

Maybe the best answer I can provide for Paul is that he never spoke on church franchising because he never foresaw a day when a church would do such a thing. (I think you could substitute the term franchise and insert any number of phrases that describes the modern church and it woudl be appropriate)


To metro's insinuation... I've visited: the church, the blog, the website... I've heard Craig speak in person, I've heard other pastors speak in person. I've also heard him tell my pastor that if we'd do things like them then we'd have a larger attendence. I've spoken with family members who are on staff in various capacities at LifeChruc.tv about numerous subjects. Having said that, I believe I'm thoroughly familiar with LifeChurch.tv.

I'm genuinely interested in learning the basis of church franschising. It is uniquely American. Plus LifeChurch.tv is the closest to me in proximity so I thought I would ask someone that goes to LifeChurch.tv.

TGIF as well.

But don't you think that even if you're correct in your assumption that Paul didn't forsee a day where churches would expand to more than one location, in which I have to disagree with, that God could have used any other messenger he so choosed? The Great Commission Matthew 28:18-20 clearly states to reach all the world. Notice how it never states how, yes it states about baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (which life does and preaches) but it never mentions a "correct method". I think that is the genius of God more than you or I will ever know in this lifetime. God is omnipotent, and omnipresent meaning he is all knowing and all present and limitless. Saying God doesn't think "franchising" as you call it, is "proper" or "biblical" defies the very nature of God. It puts a limit on God and how he can and cannot operate. The same goes with the whole Second Life and internet campuses and how God IS working in people's lives through the internet. It is yet another tool to reach lost souls. In fact, to defy how he is working is anything but unbiblical. Do you not think an all knowing God forsaw a day such as this? What about his prophet Daniel who he allowed to see the end of times? Perhaps he was just daydreaming and not really seeing God's vision. I doubt it though. An all knowning God knew everything that will happen before it existed. If an all knowing God who forsaw such a thing (franchising, church marketing, worship songs changing through the millenia, the Roman Catholic empire, etc.) do you not think he would have clearly stated "best practices" through one of his messengers, be it Paul, Matthew, Daniel, or whomever. I also remember a man name Noah in the Bible in which everyone thought he was crazy, including the "religious experts" of the time. I guess he sure showed them that God can operate using the unlikely or uncomprehensable. Just like lifechurch.tv and numerous churches across the globe operate in their own unique way. I never claimed nor does the church leadership that we're the only church doing everything right, no church is, and Pastor Craig or any of our pastors will tell you that. What you don't find at our church as I've personally found just like kmf, is that too many churches spend more time gossiping about other churches and beliefs than they do trying to grow their church. Plain and simple. Perhaps more churches worldwide should be thinking more creatively on how to reach an modern society without losing their Biblical principles. Obviously you'll never agree with lifechurch.tv completely, just as many people who don't attend your church don't agree with yours. That's okay, that's what makes us unique as humans. But obviously lifechurch.tv is doing an excellent job at reaching like minded people. You have to give it that. And I do remember your comments about the sermon I pointed you to recently. All you had was negative to say and didn't really talk about what the sermon was about or its high points. All you had was criticism.

do you not think he would have clearly stated "best practices" through one of his messengers, be it paul, matthew, daniel, or whomever.so you're saying that if scripture were to lay out 'best practices' for leadership that they should be followed and doing otherwise would be going against the infinite wisdom of god. if so, then look no further than to 1 tim 3 where the qualifications for the office of elder and deacon are (among other places) laid out. each new testament congregation was independent and had elders to lead and shepherd it and deacons to help serve in an official capacity. other than the guidance from the apostles, who were divinely inspired, the congregations governed themselves autonomously. best practices are laid out and franchising isn't suggested.

perhaps more churches worldwide should be thinking more creatively on how to reach an modern society without losing their biblical principles.
i agree with that statement, but i suggest that lifechurch focuses more on creatively reaching people and ends up falling short on sound scriptural interpretation.


and i do remember your comments about the sermon i pointed you to recently. all you had was negative to say and didn't really talk about what the sermon was about or its high points. all you had was criticism.
not sure if this was directed at me, but if so you've got a poor memory. first you say that i've never bothered watching any material you've presented. now all of a sudden you say you know i've watched it but are offended at the honest critical observation i presented afterwards. in any event... here's a link to refresh your memory. (http://www.okctalk.com/faith-values-open-discussion/5348-lifechurchtv-13.html#post84866) in that post i agreed with much of what was said in that sermon but felt the ending appealed too much to emotion... while i aired some reservations, i wasn't entirely negative... so try getting your facts straight.

-M

Do you not think an all knowing God forsaw a day such as this?


The Lord foresaw a lot of things and that is why one of Paul's (and the other disciples/apostles) felt so strongly in the purity of the church. They knew that worldly wisdom is and would be seductive. Teaching on that very subject is laced throughout the entire New Testament. Paul constantly told the churches he visited and strengthen to guard the purity of the church from outside influence.

The Church was never intended to operate like a business or for that matter like any other man-made institution.




I never claimed nor does the church leadership that we're the only church doing everything right, no church is, and Pastor Craig or any of our pastors will tell you that.

My experience is different than yours and we'll leave it at that.



But obviously lifechurch.tv is doing an excellent job at reaching like minded people. You have to give it that.


I have on many occasions pointed out good things about LifeChurch.tv on this board and to others. And if you don't want to go back and dig through this leviathan like thread... know that I applaud LifeChurch.tv for its ability to gain influence in the lives of people.




And I do remember your comments about the sermon I pointed you to recently. All you had was negative to say and didn't really talk about what the sermon was about or its high points. All you had was criticism.


Like mmm, I'm not sure if thsi is directed at me or not. So I won't respond.

Saw an NBC Nightly News preview that they were going to do on lifechurch.tv's Second Life campus.

Is that why they were at the Okc campus Sunday? I saw the crew taping, but someone said it was for their morning show - Today I think it's called? I just figured it was about the new Albany NY campus.

awww, metro... you posted untrue things about me and didn't even bother to say, 'my bad' or anything. : (

-M

Let us know when it's going to air, metro.

I will if I hear anything more jbrown, that's all I've heard so far. and mmm, my bad

lifechurch.tv will be on nbc nightly news tonight, i believe it comes on here in a few minutes at 5:30pm CST

Metro (or anyother LifeChurch.tv member),

Were you pleased with the coverage of Second Life by NBC?

oh crap. I knew I forgot something last night while I was biting my nails waiting for the season finale of 24!! I just tried to find the video of it but had no luck and my patience wore out. I found the story, but no video. Anybody have a quick link to watch this?

I thought the written story focused more on the controversy of lifechurch more than it did on the second life website.

Any new awesomeness that LifeChurch.tv is responsible for lately?
I'm kidding of course, but I do miss the weekly updates on everything from websites to billboards to baptisms to music selection.

Maybe a question: Is it true that the Tulsa branch played 'Sexy Back' during its annual mass baptism this year? It could have been last year, but I did hear a story about this recently and wanted to ask about it.

There's lots going on as usual mwmcl. I've refrained from posting them as much due to most people blowing good things out of proportion and somehow portraying them as bad, wrong, etc. Sounds like the modern media and focus on the bad instead of the good. Have never heard about and serioiusly doubt the "Sexy Back" you mentioned but as always there is always plenty of critics of lifechurch including other churches spreading rumors about lifechurch.tv. If it were true, I probably would have heard about it, however I encourage you to contact the Tulsa campus directly for the most accurate information.

And church corruption has been around from the very beginning so I don't think the mega churches aren't creating this particular problem.

ditto.

I've never been to lifechurch but i know more than a couple of people have. At the end of the day its a business, just look any other large churches with multiple sites -like Oral Roberts Campus in Tulsa...

These guys are building an empire of a business that sells god to people. But like you said its been happening since the beginning of time.

There's lots going on as usual mwmcl. I've refrained from posting them as much due to most people blowing good things out of proportion and somehow portraying them as bad, wrong, etc. Sounds like the modern media and focus on the bad instead of the good. Have never heard about and serioiusly doubt the "Sexy Back" you mentioned but as always there is always plenty of critics of lifechurch including other churches spreading rumors about lifechurch.tv. If it were true, I probably would have heard about it, however I encourage you to contact the Tulsa campus directly for the most accurate information.


The person that told me about it got baptised in Tulsa so it wasn't another church spreading a rumor.

I'll email her and ask her about it and then let you know. I hope the is mistaken as well, would hate for any church to make light of a holy moment like baptism.

My only issue with LifeChurch is the intense focus on the flashiness. All the videos and discussions about movies and all.

On one hand it feels like that type of church is losing part of the message in the way that it is delivered...as in you shouldn't need to watch a movie to get the sermon.

On the other hand, they have been able to honestly reach a very large audience, some of which would not have been brought to God otherwise. Just like any church, they have their strong of faith and their not-as-strong of faith.

So while it may not be what works for me (total traditionalist...choir/organ/etc...and I'm 25 folks...not 80), it does seem to work for others (including members of my family and some friends). I just wish they would tone things down some and stop trying to convert the world to their view of how it should be.

Metro just made me realize I want to post something about Lifechurch over here. I have been going to the main campus for years. For those of you that have attended, you might remember a very talented guitarist named Dameon that used to play with Brian Bruss every weekend and on Wednesday nights for Switch. That Dameon is the same guitarist in the band Aranda that I have been getting votes for Lollapalooza and that had all of their equipment stolen while they were out on tour.

So, I have to say that I emailed Lifechurch when this tore Dameon apart and put a big halt to his touring plans. Someone from the main campus forwarded my email to every staff member in all of the oklahoma campuses. The only person I am aware of from that church that has been there for him is Stephen Cole. No one else was seen at this grandfather's funeral a few months ago, no one else came to his benefit show sunday night, and no one has sent him a check to offer their support. But they sure have wanted to make sure that he keeps tithing and can still fill in on the days when they need him to perform.

I am very disappointed in this church right now and can't understand why they wouldn't want to help him and his band out after everything that he and his family have done for the church. Dameon's passion in life is his music, and it's his way of testifying to the world and showing what God has done for him.

If my church doesn't help out it's members and staff when they need it the most, I think it's time for me to find a new church. I am not happy with a lot of things from this church right now.

kmf, some friends of mine had a similar experience. They were accused of some pretty heinous crimes of which they were innocent. They had been doing all kinds of volunteer ministries, life groups, just about everything conceivable. When they turned to these people and the church to get help in their hour of need, no one was there to offer support.

That's too bad. I know I don't come off as a huge LC supporter, but I am surprised at this.

I too am shocked. Honestly kmf, I'm sorry you've experienced what you have. I knew nothing about it. I would really like to hear both sides of the story before I make my conclusion. I don't know if I consider a forwarded email a credible source of contact. I know most people at lifechurch would give the shirt off their back for a member or not a member. Many members went to Greenburg, Kansas immediately after the devastating tornado to help out and do whatever they could. The same goes for New Orleans and Hurricane Katrina with almost weekly trips there. The church also reached out to those who didn't go to church in Yukon, Bethany, and the west metro earlier this year when the high winds destroyed properties. I know it's very unlikely for the majority of lifechurch.tv members and workers to shun another coming from my personal experience there over the years. Not saying it's not possible or the church is perfect, nor is any church, but I sure would like to know more on both sides.

I appreciate the apology, but it really belongs to Dameon and his family. They are the ones that were treated this way. I know for a fact that the email was sent because several people responded after the fact and asked how everything went - with still no offer to help. Now I am talking about the local staff, not the people within the church. Although I can't say I saw any of those familiar faces at these functions either. But this isn't the first time I have heard of this behavior nor is it the first time I have experienced it myself. I had a really bad experience for the first night of switch at the main campus this summer. I spoke with one of the pastors about it and he suggested I email them. So, I emailed the church about that and they forwarded it over to the person in charge of the youth and I received an email that said "we look forward to seeing you this wednesday" and that was it. So...we go to another campus for switch and like it just fine. As far as helping those in need - when were these activities planned where people helped the tornado victims? I don't remember anything mentioned in the missions listing or while we were in church. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but maybe it was a lifegroup volunteering and not a church sponsored activity? Metro - if you can find out the other side of the story, I would love to hear it. I can pm you the person's name that I spoke with about the Aranda stuff. I still have the emails at home actually and could forward those to you as well.

Anyone know which church they use to tape during Craig sermon and the time also?
I want to see Craig live not just via video.