https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/state/2024/09/08/basements-in-oklahoma-hard-to-find-because-of-red-dirt-clay-soul/74631380007/

This has always been an interesting topic to me. I own 3 properties in the Lincoln Terrace area and 2 of them have basements. Both of them are around 100 years old and I have always wondered why they would build basements that long ago but not do it on new construction in that area now.

I had a neighbor tell me that the soil in that area is NOT the typical Oklahoma red clay because the North Canadian River ran through there thousands of years ago and changed the soil composition. I don't know whether or not that is true, but it seems plausible. She said that her garden is much easier to have produce vegetables than it was in Edmond because the soil is better.

Any engineers/builders on here that would know?

A lot of old homes have basements in OKC; lots of them in the Heritage Hills area, for example.

But it's only old homes.

I suspect basements were expected back then when people were migrating from the north and northeast where they were needed due to much colder and longer winters. The rule of thumb is that the base foundation of a home must be below the frost line to prevent frost heaving, and that's a requirement in local building codes.

If you look at a frost line map, you'll see it is only 10-20" inches in all but the panhandle of Oklahoma. So there is simply no need to dig out an expensive basement here. I don't think you'll find any basements in OKC in homes built after 1950, unless there was some sort of unusual sloping lot or something similarly odd.

Given how much of the soil in metro is not great for basements, it would make sense that most of the current builders/developers/buyers in region are just used to building/buying properties without them. So when starting new projects today now just build what they have experience with, even if soil of individual property would allow a basement.

My parents bought the house I grew up in around 1960. Just east of May and north of NW 36th. It was built in the late 40s and the original owner had a den added in the early 50s on the back with a basement underneath. It had an entrance accessible from the house and from outside. I used it as my room in my teens since it had the outside entrance.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/basements1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/basements2.jpg

Another basement memory. I did a lot of electrical work and some other things to the old Haunted House restaurant. It had a basement under around half the house. It was probably just the ambiance of the whole house but it was very spooky down there.

In addition to the clay/soil we sit on we also have a high water table here in OK. Practically every basement has had some major problems- flooding, structural work to name a couple of the more common ones. Considering it's mostly historic/old homes that have them guessing builders figured out they don't work very well here and quit doing it many decades ago.

Given how much of the soil in metro is not great for basements, it would make sense that most of the current builders/developers/buyers in region are just used to building/buying properties without them. So when starting new projects today now just build what they have experience with, even if soil of individual property would allow a basement.I definitely agree with you on this. I have several clients and friends who are in the construction industry and they literally flinch when I mention new construction with a basement and the standard answer is that it is a soil issue.

I also have a former client who is in the ICF (insulated concrete forms) trade and he says that basements using this technology are top-notch and can easily add additional space to the footprint of a new home. Unfortunately, many builders still use standard construction techniques and don't take advantage of this opportunity.

^

They figured out basements were expensive and not required by building codes, so why include them?

I hate basements. I have had two in Oklahoma. One was at 130 NW 21st and the other was at 1516 NW 21st. Both of them had significant issues with the walls caving in. Completely repoured new walls on one and the other we filled in with sand and a drainage system. Both had flooding issues and required sump pumps. I have three houses in Kansas and each of them have basements that have been converted into apartments. Most of the properties I look at in Hays Kansas have basements that have been converted into living space.

I hate basements. I have had two in Oklahoma. One was at 130 NW 21st and the other was at 1516 NW 21st. Both of them had significant issues with the walls caving in. Completely repoured new walls on one and the other we filled in with sand and a drainage system. Both had flooding issues and required sump pumps. I have three houses in Kansas and each of them have basements that have been converted into apartments. Most of the properties I look at in Hays Kansas have basements that have been converted into living space.
Funny how things like this work. My parent's basement never even smelled musty. And the restaurant's basement had furniture stored that moisture would have destroyed so it had to be dry. But when I was doing remodeling I was in a lot of very wet basements.

A lot of old homes have basements in OKC; lots of them in the Heritage Hills area, for example.

But it's only old homes.

I suspect basements were expected back then when people were migrating from the north and northeast where they were needed due to much colder and longer winters. The rule of thumb is that the base foundation of a home must be below the frost line to prevent frost heaving, and that's a requirement in local building codes.

If you look at a frost line map, you'll see it is only 10-20" inches in all but the panhandle of Oklahoma. So there is simply no need to dig out an expensive basement here. I don't think you'll find any basements in OKC in homes built after 1950, unless there was some sort of unusual sloping lot or something similarly odd.

This is the answer I have gotten most often from people who are true experts in construction around here, because they have soil issues in other places around the country where basements are much more common, so that answer never held water for me. You can build one for a custom home around here, but for spec houses, it is not worth the extra cost here, you simply don't need it because of the frost line, as you stated. No matter where I have had them, in New England, in Missouri, they have always had issues, so as much as I love them for the extra space, they aren't worth the potential trouble, in my opinion.

I'm sure it's cheaper to build finished space on a 2nd level than a basement.

I'm sure it's cheaper to build finished space on a 2nd level than a basement.
Beyond a doubt. Way cheaper.

The new post about the new arena also made me think. Lots of buildings with basements and underground parking downtown. As far as I know pretty dry. I also spent a bit of time in the underground utility chases that cover downtown. They're dry.

Beyond a doubt. Way cheaper.

and a lot less creepy. :D

It's kind of funny because basements make so much sense in Oklahoma with the tornadoes. But, like Wu-Tang said... CREAM (Cash Rules Everything Around Me). So, we go up instead.

and a lot less creepy. :DTrue. But a basement was a must have for my dad. He was terrified of tornadoes. They bought a tiny, half finished, one room cabin at lake Eufaula and before we could spend the night there to work on it he had a steel, premade storm shelter installed.

Both houses I grew up in Kansas had basements. The second home was more of a root cellar. It didn't even have concrete walls. The walls were dirt and it was more of a root cellar but could also be used as a shelter.

First home I lived in Tuttle Oklahoma had an outdoor storm shelter but every spring we would have to pump it out due to water seeping through the concrete. Even our HVAC duct work in the foundation would fill with water in the Spring.

My mother had a full basement in her house in Choctaw that never flooded but she had to run a dehumidifier in it year round to keep it from molding.

I find this topic interesting. In OKC I never lived in a place with a basement. Both houses I've owned here in St. Louis do have finished basements and it is amazing how much more space they give you. If you have a ranch house with a full basement it effectively doubles the size of your house. They can be so versatile. A number of people we know have "walkout basements" with doors that open on to patios and backyards. But yes, water can be an issue. Our current basement has partially flooded on two occasions (in eight years) and I always say a prayer when I know we are going to get a big storm.

The financial cost aspect makes me smile because people up here would never think of building or buying a house without a basement but they are perfectly happy to live in a house clad mostly in siding (because brick is more expensive). Just shows that different parts of the country value different things.

^

Again, basements in most areas north of Oklahoma are required by building codes due to the frost line.

It's not a matter of personal preference.

In addition to the clay/soil we sit on we also have a high water table here in OK. Practically every basement has had some major problems- flooding, structural work to name a couple of the more common ones. Considering it's mostly historic/old homes that have them guessing builders figured out they don't work very well here and quit doing it many decades ago.

Isn't it like 6ft in some spots?

^

Again, basements in most areas north of Oklahoma are required by building codes due to the frost line.

It's not a matter of personal preference.
For whatever odd reason - maybe because I love basements - I've had lots of conversations about this topic with homebuilders and contractors, and it has been explained to me that while basements aren't generally required by code, even in the north, the depth that they have to dig to put in the code-mandated below-frostline stem walls further north is essentially already basement depth. So instead of backfilling (which itself carries expense) and creating a generally-unusable crawl space, homebuilders up there opt to install a basement for very little additional investment. It increases the value - doubling it if the space is conditioned - for basically the price of a poured floor and a set of stairs.

The the generalized soil explanation here in OKC doesn't hold water (pun intended), as there are multiple types of soil just within the metro. There are also wildly varying relationships with the water table, which remains essentially the same overall elevation (water seeks its own level) despite the fact that the land above it can vary pretty wildly in elevation. If a property is atop a hill, even a low one, it won't have the same relationship with the water table that one a few blocks over (and at a lower elevation) might have.

Builders just mostly got out of the business of building basements here, especially when stem wall construction gave way to poured slabs. Slab construction is viable here, thanks to OKC's shallow frost depth, as Pete has pointed out. It's cheaper and easier to do a shallow excavation and pour a slab, so that became the standard. After decades of slab builds, at this point few contractors and builders in the metro are experienced with basements. Nor are they expected by consumers, so they simply don't happen. A few years ago I learned a contractor from Kansas was actually subbing out many of the occasional basement jobs in town, simply because they had experience and the Oklahoma builders they were working for did not.

Growing up in Kansas we had a complete finished basement (my dad, who had a career set around the construction industry, finished it himself). It was fantastic. Generous laundry room, a family room that contained our only TV, my dad's carpentry/work shop, and a full-on craft room that could have easily been a normal bedroom instead. RARELY in OKC do you see much more than a cramped concrete hole in the ground with low ceilings.

I also had a half basement below my former home in Gatewood, built in 1927. It was dry, no issues. There are also basements in commercial structures all over the city. Sure, they can be problematic if your lot is closer to the water table or if your lot is in problematic soil, but they are eminently achievable here. They are just not the expectation, so few builders do them.

Isn't it like 6ft in some spots?

That's a great question that I did not know the answer to so I looked it up and found a chart that showed one place with 4ft in NE OK and another that was 5ft in NW. Oklahoma county looks like the depths are 100ft+ until you get west a little ways. Just off a quick glance I really didn't know.

In addition to the clay/soil we sit on we also have a high water table here in OK. Practically every basement has had some major problems- flooding, structural work to name a couple of the more common ones. Considering it's mostly historic/old homes that have them guessing builders figured out they don't work very well here and quit doing it many decades ago.

I'm at the southern edge of Warr Acres. I have a well just for outdoor use watering. The water level in my well is at 14ft but it was drilled to 125ft. And I'm originally from Chicago where everyone in my family had a basement. Usually finished out with nice walls, floor and ceiling.

I'm at the southern edge of Warr Acres. I have a well just for outdoor use watering. The water level in my well is at 14ft but it was drilled to 125ft. And I'm originally from Chicago where everyone in my family had a basement. Usually finished out with nice walls, floor and ceiling.

That's good info! Have learned a couple good things in this thread.

yes, very educational

This is the answer I have gotten most often from people who are true experts in construction around here, because they have soil issues in other places around the country where basements are much more common, so that answer never held water for me. You can build one for a custom home around here, but for spec houses, it is not worth the extra cost here, you simply don't need it because of the frost line, as you stated. No matter where I have had them, in New England, in Missouri, they have always had issues, so as much as I love them for the extra space, they aren't worth the potential trouble, in my opinion.

Just a couple of observations:

Wouldn't a neighborhood with basements require deeper sewer lines (deeper than maybe is standard in OKC) below the level of the bottom of the basement?

Comparing construction methods in the era of old neighborhoods like Gatewood or Heritage Hills to what is available today, l would have to think watertight basements could be built more economically than you might think. However in areas where the water table isn't high, you may have sandstone to contend with and vice-versa.

Since basements are not common in OKC, is there a possible shortage of experienced builders?

Are there any new neighborhoods where basements are being built?

Just a couple of observations:

Wouldn't a neighborhood with basements require deeper sewer lines (deeper than maybe is standard in OKC) below the level of the bottom of the basement?

Comparing construction methods in the era of old neighborhoods like Gatewood or Heritage Hills to what is available today, l would have to think watertight basements could be built more economically than you might think. However in areas where the water table isn't high, you may have sandstone to contend with and vice-versa.

Since basements are not common in OKC, is there a possible shortage of experienced builders?

Are there any new neighborhoods where basements are being built?

Possibly, yes, but sewer mains are usually built at a depth that would allow it. If not, a basement can still be drained into a sewage/macerator pump, which grinds solid waste and injects the effluent into the lateral line (the sewer line that runs from the house to the main). This is a very common solution.
You’re absolutely correct that newer technologies now make basements eminently possible, even on sites where the soil is not especially conducive.
100%. The lack of experienced builders/contractors is a result of generations of building exclusively on slabs. It’s now the most inexpensive and relatively easiest method of building, and it meets code in Oklahoma whereas in colder markets deeper stem walls are required. So for generations of contractors it’s the only way they know.
Not that I am aware of.

It's kind of funny because basements make so much sense in Oklahoma with the tornadoes. But, like Wu-Tang said... CREAM (Cash Rules Everything Around Me). So, we go up instead.

Dolla dolla bills ya'll

Probably my favorite thread on OKCTalk. Very informative.

In addition to the clay/soil we sit on we also have a high water table here in OK. Practically every basement has had some major problems- flooding, structural work to name a couple of the more common ones. Considering it's mostly historic/old homes that have them guessing builders figured out they don't work very well here and quit doing it many decades ago.

Used to own a house on about 55th and Meridian. The previous owners had dug a basement. It continually flooded. I was glad when we finally sold it and moved on. Water tables are too high that area, at least. Don't think I'd want another basement in OKC anyway.

Just a couple of observations:

Are there any new neighborhoods where basements are being built?

Yes, but i think the majority of basements in new construction probably represent the builder’s solution to grading / slope issues. That is, they aren’t necessarily going out of their way to build basements but sometimes a basement makes far more sense than hauling in millions of $$ in dirt to make a lot suitable for a more traditional floorplan.

You’ll notice that almost all of these new basements are walkouts, which probably alleviates some of the flooding and engineering issues you might encounter with a fully enclosed basement.

Here’s an example. This neighborhood has 7 basement lots: https://www.alliemoorerealestate.com/blank-page-1

Used to own a house on about 55th and Meridian. The previous owners had dug a basement. It continually flooded. I was glad when we finally sold it and moved on. Water tables are too high that area, at least. Don't think I'd want another basement in OKC anyway.

That is about 1 mile north of the 14ft water in my well.

I'm going to take the Miata to a car show in Crescent tomorrow. That made me think of the old Kerr-McGee Plutonium plant just south of Crescent. I spent a lot of time there when I was the Facilities Manager for the KM R&D facility. The tallest building that was the actual plutonium enrichment plant has a below ground level probably 20 feet deep. It's a stones throw from the river. It was always dry as a bone. But the 3 ft thick reinforced concrete walls might have something to do with it.

The height of the water table should be of major importance in helping to decide if having a basement is wise. A doctor in Stillwater built his office with a basement but it would flood. It was all because he built it on one of the lowest lying areas in Stillwater on Washington St, a few blocks south of the strip.

It seems basements are less common since slabs have replaced raised wooden foundations for a long while. A nice home a few blocks northeast of me built during the Stillwater boomtown days of the 60s and 70s has a wood foundation with a good basement. Water table in my neighborhood not an issue. I don't want a basement any more than I want a 2nd floor, especially if the 2nd floor doesn't come with a view.

It's worth stating that excavation is not without cost. So while a basement is generally very doable, the lack of a need to dig deep for the footings means that every extra amount dug out beyond the 18-24 inches for just the footings is pure cost.

Couple that with COPIOUS lot sizes and it doesn't make sense in many situations.

Outside of a few lower spots subject to periodic flooding, the urban core is where it would make most sense for a basement due to the premium of land cost and how a finished basement adds more space in a much more constricted environment.

I own 2 houses near Memorial Park that I have had for 30 years. Both have basements. Every house in the neighborhood has them because when they were built in 1916, they were heated by coal fired boilers located in the basement. The coal wagons would go down the street and deliver it directly to your basement if you needed more. Both houses have exterior basement doors as well as interior.

Both basements leaked a little water during a heavy rain, but I was able to stop that by sealing the outside where water could enter. another issue was that when the houses were built the basement walls were double layered brick. They did not have the science of mortar down back then and used a lot of ash which deuterates over time. I one of the houses I tore out 2 of the basement walls and replaced them myself but that was 30 years ago, and I was much younger then.

Today neither leak water and are useful spaces.