Since it seems to be an issue on the Braum's Thread I started this one.

Some interesting stats I was looking up based on that thread:

Fast Food and Counter Workers (bls.gov) (https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes353023.htm#(3))

Mean hr wage (US): $14.48
Median hr wage (US): $14.20

Mean hr wage (OK): $11.64
Median hr wage (OK): $11.05

For OK:



Occupation code
Occupation title (click on the occupation title to view its profile)
Level
Employment
Employment RSE
Employment per 1,000 jobs
Location quotient
Median hourly wage
Mean hourly wage
Annual mean wage
Mean wage RSE




35-3023
Fast Food and Counter Workers (https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes353023.htm)
detail
46,750
3.8%
28.091
1.16
$11.05
$11.64
$24,220
0.9%

^^^^ Thanks for the info!

My first job was as a Fast Food worker at Hardees a few blocks from my house. The minimum wage was $4.25 when I started, but was raised in 1996 to $4.75. My starting wage at the time was $5.00 an hour. It was part time and I could walk to work if I had to. Gas was at .63 cents a gallon. Most meals at Hardees were less than an hours wage. It was a hard job for a first job.

Today gas is usually $3 a gallon or above. Fast Food meals can now exceed $10. Minimum wage at $7.25 would not even cover a meal at most fast food restaurants.

A living wage is the amount of money you need to make to cover the basics and have a decent life. This means paying for things like rent, food, healthcare, and transportation without struggling. It's higher than the current minimum wage in almost every metro area in the US, which might not be enough to meet these needs. A living wage helps ensure you’re not just scraping by but can actually afford the essentials and have a bit of security. The exact amount varies depending on where you live and your personal situation. As a society we all benefit from the joint success of our cities, states, and country. Capitalism has given us the economic engine to create the incredible wealth of opportunity we have today. If we enfranchise more people to be bought into the benefits of the system we will only continue to grow. The cold war was largely won through this concept.

I'll be honest and say that I don't have the insight to very confidently state what the minimum wage should be or what a living wage is in dollars.

But I will say that the people looking their nose down at anyone making less than $50k or presuming that people are working stressful, thankless jobs at fast food or similar in order to have an easy road to living like a movie star are absolutely despicable and completely ignorant. Shame on you if you're someone who thinks that way.

I make well over $50k and I'll tell you this is the easiest job I've ever had. I work an easy 40 hours, honestly less actually being productive if we're being honest. I have flexibility to use my time how I want, take off days as needed. I'm sitting here posting on a message board at work. Easy.

I worked those minimum wage jobs and those were hard, I'll tell you what. I was running around, working up a sweat. I had to strategize and plan my time and be efficient because I was expected to a lot in relatively little time. My 8+ hour days were full, and emphasis on the +. I had one half hour break to sit down and catch my breath and I was right back at it. I had customers condescending to me, yelling at me for things beyond my control. Managers pushing for more than is reasonable and stretching or breaking the limits of the law. Grabbing extra shifts to eke out a few more dollars to pay the bills. That was hard.

I'll tell you this, too. I make well over $50k and I'm just this side of struggling. I'm not living that movie star life style. I've got a single 10 year old car with manual transmission and roll up windows. Paid off. I've got a 1200 sq ft house, so nothing to write home about. I'm not eating out every night or at the fanciest restaurants. I've cancelled all my streaming services. Stuff's expensive. Life is hard. And I've got that easy desk job. I'm making 3x what someone making $15 an hour is making and I'm working much less hard than they are. You bet I'm all for raising that minimum wage and making those folks having to work fast food and get sneered at like the folks in the other thread lives a little easier. If a business can't afford to provide their essential workers a living wage while CEOs who work even less than I do are actually living that movie star lifestyle than that business doesn't deserve to exist.

My first job was as a Fast Food worker at Hardees a few blocks from my house. The minimum wage was $4.25 when I started, but was raised in 1996 to $4.75. My starting wage at the time was $5.00 an hour. It was part time and I could walk to work if I had to. Gas was at .63 cents a gallon. Most meals at Hardees were less than an hours wage. It was a hard job for a first job.

Today gas is usually $3 a gallon or above. Fast Food meals can now exceed $10. Minimum wage at $7.25 would not even cover a meal at most fast food restaurants.

My first job was as a busboy at a fancier restaurant. So, two weeks of 6hr days my check was around $200. But I got whatever the waitresses said was 20% of the tips they received. I made enough to buy a calculator for school.

The closest thing to fast-food I worked was Subway. I was like 17 and was given keys to a few stores. They would have me close two locations a night. In one summer, we went through three managers at one store. That was for like $5.15/hr.

I make well over $50k and I'll tell you this is the easiest job I've ever had. I work an easy 40 hours, honestly less actually being productive if we're being honest. I have flexibility to use my time how I want, take off days as needed. I'm sitting here posting on a message board at work. Easy.

This is my life as well. I have a relaxing job that doesn't require much out of me. I have my own office with plenty of comfort and space. I live comfortable enough, but I still have to watch my spending. I would want at least what I have for anyone working a full time job.

My first job was as a busboy at a fancier restaurant. So, two weeks of 6hr days my check was around $200. But I got whatever the waitresses said was 20% of the tips they received. I made enough to buy a calculator for school.

The closest thing to fast-food I worked was Subway. I was like 17 and was given keys to a few stores. They would have me close two locations a night. In one summer, we went through three managers at one store. That was for like $5.15/hr.

It is really crazy to believe they use to give someone that much responsibility and pay them so little money.

I made over $10 worth of raises over the course of 3 years at Chick-fil-A in middle school/high school. I remember getting random messages from the payroll manager saying my pay was being increased because the cost of living was getting higher. I didn’t even have many bills since I didn’t move into my own apartment until I was independent at 18. I can’t imagine this is the case anywhere else.

I made over $10 worth of raises over the course of 3 years at Chick-fil-A in middle school/high school. I remember getting random messages from the payroll manager saying my pay was being raised because the cost of living was getting higher. I didn’t even have many bills since I didn’t move into my own apartment until I was independent at 18. I can’t imagine this is the case anywhere else.

My Brother worked for Chick-Fil-A for 10 years. He worked for the same Franchisee at two different locations and also helped training at a few other locations. He was always getting raises and promotions.

I make average income and after my roommate got married I can BARELY get by after rent and utilities. Average income does not mean average livability. I am a manager + HR and marketing for this company.

But, with that, that’s a testament to the fact that the average single person does not require six figures to get by in this state. I know people who argue otherwise. Good discipline with budgeting and spending makes it possible.

I make average income and after my roommate got married I can BARELY get by after rent and utilities. Average income does not mean average livability. I am a manager + HR and marketing for this company.

Sounds like a company is asking you to do three jobs for the price of one. I am not sure how large your company is, but HR can be a tough job by itself. I am the Marketing for my company and we are a small company of just over 100 people. We have an HR Director that is always busy.

I'll be honest and say that I don't have the insight to very confidently state what the minimum wage should be or what a living wage is in dollars.

But I will say that the people looking their nose down at anyone making less than $50k or presuming that people are working stressful, thankless jobs at fast food or similar in order to have an easy road to living like a movie star are absolutely despicable and completely ignorant. Shame on you if you're someone who thinks that way.


Maybe read the previous posts in the other thread. Your "paraphrasing" is completely out of context and inaccurate.

To recap, NO ONE actually makes minimum wage in the fast food industry these days. Plus, entry level fast food jobs are not supposed provide enough money for a house, a car, cell phones, and all sorts of other luxuries. You have to learn more skills and valuable skills if you want all the move out of the apartment and ditch the roommate. Show you are a hard worker and are reliable, get promoted from entry level and get a raise. Keep working and learning and get into management there, if you want to stay in fast food. Or use your new skills to get a new job that pays more.

The $50k reference was directed at people that think entry level fast food workers should be paid that much, as a living wage (equating living wage to movie star lifestyle was a bit of an exaggeration... for most people, but it does tend to get out of hand). That is simply not true. For that matter, I implied that people that make $50k have gained skills and worked hard to get to where they are, as that is not an entry level fast food wage.

Maybe read the previous posts in the other thread. Your "paraphrasing" is completely out of context and inaccurate.

To recap, NO ONE actually makes minimum wage in the fast food industry these days. Plus, entry level fast food jobs are not supposed provide enough money for a house, a car, cell phones, and all sorts of other luxuries. You have to learn more skills and valuable skills if you want all the move out of the apartment and ditch the roommate. Show you are a hard worker and are reliable, get promoted from entry level and get a raise. Keep working and learning and get into management there, if you want to stay in fast food. Or use your new skills to get a new job that pays more.

The $50k reference was directed at people that think entry level fast food workers should be paid that much, as a living wage (equating living wage to movie star lifestyle was a bit of an exaggeration... for most people, but it does tend to get out of hand). That is simply not true. For that matter, I implied that people that make $50k have gained skills and worked hard to get to where they are, as that is not an entry level fast food wage.

At $15 an hour they are paying at Braums that is maybe an entry level job is still under $30,000 a year before you take the taxes out. "In OKC to live comfortably an Hourly wage needed for a single working adult is $38.66." This is based on the 50/30/20 budget rule that recommends spending approximately 50% of your income on basic needs like food and housing, 30% on wants and putting away the remainder toward savings or paying off debt. Source (https://smartasset.com/data-studies/state-salary-living-comfortably-2024)

A Cell phone is a Luxury Item? Sheesh

The fact you list housing as a luxury says everything. No, not the fanciest Malibu mansion, but people should be able to work an "entry level fast food" job and earn a wage high enough to find decent housing. Also, people don't like to accept it, but a car and a cell phone is a requirement in today's modern society. If we aren't providing the infrastructure for people to get to where they need to be when they need to be in a reasonable amount of time, how can we expect them to have time to "earn skills" and put in the work for that magical $50k job? If people don't have a phone number to provide and be contacted at for interviews, etc. how can they ever hope to get that out of that hole of working minimum wage jobs?

I had parents who could pay the bills and provided me a phone and a car until I made enough to move out and support myself. Not everyone has that luxury. If you start from nothing and the only jobs you can get hired for simply the circumstance of your birth are "entry level fast food" jobs it is going to be a disproportionate struggle to get anywhere near "$50k". The conversation about "minimum" and "livable" wages is really about whether someone in that position even gets a shot at living the life I'm sure most of on this forum are privileged to have.

And, again, "entry level fast food" requires skill and hard work to do decently, particularly when companies are cutting payroll and sacrificing the customer experience (which was the core discussion over the Braum's thread) for the sake of maximizing profit. I was trained for my "entry level fast food" jobs back in the day. I was trained for my current job and its easier in literally ever way.

A often neglected segment of the minimum wage discussion is many farm jobs. There are a basket of occupations in this industry that are not minimum wage eligible. Also most agricultural workers are exempt from overtime wages.

At $15 an hour they are paying at Braums that is maybe an entry level job is still under $30,000 a year before you take the taxes out. "In OKC to live comfortably an Hourly wage needed for a single working adult is $38.66." This is based on the 50/30/20 budget rule that recommends spending approximately 50% of your income on basic needs like food and housing, 30% on wants and putting away the remainder toward savings or paying off debt. Source (https://smartasset.com/data-studies/state-salary-living-comfortably-2024)

A Cell phone is a Luxury Item? Sheesh

So, per your source, $40,206 is a livable wage... the rest is wants and savings. Build your skills, move up and apply the 50/30/20 rule.

An old cell phone may be a necessity, but a brand new iPhone/Samsung every two years is definitely not... my bad for not being clear on that.

At $15 an hour they are paying at Braums that is maybe an entry level job is still under $30,000 a year before you take the taxes out. "In OKC to live comfortably an Hourly wage needed for a single working adult is $38.66." This is based on the 50/30/20 budget rule that recommends spending approximately 50% of your income on basic needs like food and housing, 30% on wants and putting away the remainder toward savings or paying off debt. Source (https://smartasset.com/data-studies/state-salary-living-comfortably-2024)

A Cell phone is a Luxury Item? Sheesh

your math is not very good 15 bucks an hour (40 hours a week) is 31,200 a year .. over 30k not under ... and 38.66 that is lol funny ... that is over 80k ...

The fact you list housing as a luxury says everything. No, not the fanciest Malibu mansion, but people should be able to work an "entry level fast food" job and earn a wage high enough to find decent housing. Also, people don't like to accept it, but a car and a cell phone is a requirement in today's modern society. If we aren't providing the infrastructure for people to get to where they need to be when they need to be in a reasonable amount of time, how can we expect them to have time to "earn skills" and put in the work for that magical $50k job? If people don't have a phone number to provide and be contacted at for interviews, etc. how can they ever hope to get that out of that hole of working minimum wage jobs?

Having a house is a luxury (I did not say housing). I lived in a apartment for many years of my adult life, until I was to the point in which I could buy one. Cars are not fully necessary, as you can get much cheaper transportation (bus, motorcycle, bike, etc.)... but even if you got a car, you don't have to have a brand new one or one that looks awesome. I clarified myself above regarding the cell phone... you may need one, just not a brand new one, every 2 years . Houses, new cars, new cells.. those ARE luxuries... you don't NEED any of that... those are WANTS. Those luxuries shouldn't be given to you, but you should earn them.

And while I am clarifying... when I say hard work, I am not referring to physical labor, type of hard work... I am talking about being on time, being reliable, doing what you are supposed to be doing, getting thing your task complete, developing new skills, being a benefit to the company, etc. If your company doesn't reward you for your hard work, there are plenty of others out there that will. Maybe after your shift, hit up a library to learn more skills. There are many ways to improve yourself than just hoping for the best. (And to further clarify, "you" in this context doesn't mean you personally, but a generic you.)

I make average income and after my roommate got married I can BARELY get by after rent and utilities. Average income does not mean average livability. I am a manager + HR and marketing for this company.

that all depends on where you are choosing to live ... (like if you roommate and you lived downtown for instance)

Does the low wage job provide medical insurance? Healthcare is a necessity and needs to be part of the discussion for those employed in this country when factoring in "liveable" wages.

your math is not very good 15 bucks an hour (40 hours a week) is 31,200 a year .. over 30k not under ... and 38.66 that is lol funny ... that is over 80k ...

Thank you for adding so much to the conversation. Snark doesn't pay very well these days. I am glad you find this situation so funny.

So, per your source, $40,206 is a livable wage... the rest is wants and savings. Build your skills, move up and apply the 50/30/20 rule.

An old cell phone may be a necessity, but a brand new iPhone/Samsung every two years is definitely not... my bad for not being clear on that.

Correct, so if you want the Government to take care of all the people with out savings continue to argue about how much someone should be paid. This includes emergency savings for when something bad happens that you haven't planned for.

Correct, so if you want the Government to take care of all the people with out savings continue to argue about how much someone should be paid. This includes emergency savings for when something bad happens that you haven't planned for.

No, that's were self-responsibility is supposed to come into play. Your goal shouldn't be earn as little as you can, but to better yourself and earn more. Work for your wants and savings, don't rely on others, especially the government.

No, that's were self-responsibility is supposed to come into play. Your goal shouldn't be earn as little as you can, but to better yourself and earn more. Work for your wants and savings, don't rely on others, especially the government.

You just described who I am. I have self-responsibility, my goal is to climb the financial ladder and do better and earn more. I have savings, I have all the luxuries you stated earlier. I don't rely on others, especially the government. That being said, I believe people should be paid a decent wage for all types of work.

I would like to know from those who do not believe there should be a livable wage. If you were the owner, what would you pay an entry level fast food worker in the Modern Day economy?

No, that's were self-responsibility is supposed to come into play. Your goal shouldn't be earn as little as you can, but to better yourself and earn more. Work for your wants and savings, don't rely on others, especially the government.

okay... but then why is job jumping so looked down upon then? if that is what the goal should be, then people changing jobs when employers don't increase wages based upon what you have learned and are now capable of, why is that frowned upon so much?

From my experience, a more and more companies are paying way more than 15.00 to get the talent level they want. I think people should get a livable wage, but they are also responsible for earing it too. I worked my way through college in the late 70's on 3.00 an hour working in a hot greasy factory. That alone motivated me to work harder to get ahead. My friends were all out having fun in the evenings, and I was studying. It took me longer but I kept my eye on the prize. I have 4 daughters and have always pushed them to be the best they can be. It starts with work ethic. Two of them bought a house while working as a server. Both have moved on to other career paths and neither graduated college. They did it by showing up every day on time, working hard and going above and beyond. My point is that anybody can make a good living if they are willing to put in the work.

Thank you for adding so much to the conversation. Snark doesn't pay very well these days. I am glad you find this situation so funny.

what is funny is thinking it takes 80k for a single person to live comfortably in OKC

I would like to know from those who do not believe there should be a livable wage. If you were the owner, what would you pay an entry level fast food worker in the Modern Day economy?

the smallest amount that i could ..

From my experience, a more and more companies are paying way more than 15.00 to get the talent level they want. I think people should get a livable wage, but they are also responsible for earing it too. I worked my way through college in the late 70's on 3.00 an hour working in a hot greasy factory. That alone motivated me to work harder to get ahead. My friends were all out having fun in the evenings, and I was studying. It took me longer but I kept my eye on the prize. I have 4 daughters and have always pushed them to be the best they can be. It starts with work ethic. Two of them bought a house while working as a server. Both have moved on to other career paths and neither graduated college. They did it by showing up every day on time, working hard and going above and beyond. My point is that anybody can make a good living if they are willing to put in the work.

well said

From my experience, a more and more companies are paying way more than 15.00 to get the talent level they want. I think people should get a livable wage, but they are also responsible for earing it too. I worked my way through college in the late 70's on 3.00 an hour working in a hot greasy factory. That alone motivated me to work harder to get ahead. My friends were all out having fun in the evenings, and I was studying. It took me longer but I kept my eye on the prize. I have 4 daughters and have always pushed them to be the best they can be. It starts with work ethic. Two of them bought a house while working as a server. Both have moved on to other career paths and neither graduated college. They did it by showing up every day on time, working hard and going above and beyond. My point is that anybody can make a good living if they are willing to put in the work.

Exactly.

the smallest amount that i could ..

So minimum wage?

what is funny is thinking it takes 80k for a single person to live comfortably in OKC

So I guess we need to define what it means to live comfortably. What does it mean to you? Considering you have added little to nothing to this conversation.

I would like to know from those who do not believe there should be a livable wage. If you were the owner, what would you pay an entry level fast food worker in the Modern Day economy?

I would start by looking at what my competitors were paying. If I wanted to just get by, start there or a little lower (expect more turnover). If I wanted to be a "high-end" restaurant (like CFA), I would pay more to keep the good employees... and once you proved you are reliable and a good employee, I would make sure compensate you accordingly so I didn't lose you to another restaurant (or even another industry)... at least until the labor force exceeded the labor budget (which will vary based on a number of factors). Basically, you get what you pay for.

So, to answer your question, it could be anywhere from $10/hr to $15/hr, after all is considered. Show me you are worth more and get more. Show me you are worth less and be careful of being replaced.

All these posts about first jobs, fast food places, living wages, job functions, etc. make me think about my history.
At 14 in 1974 two friends who also went to NW Classen and I went to work as busboys at Glen's. One of the nicer steakhouses at the time. We got a wage but I don't remember what plus a percentage of what the waitresses claimed they got. We always thought most of them shortchanged us. Then I went to work at Casa Bonita. There we got a pretty good wage. Again I don't remember exactly what. Plus tips divided equally between all the floor servers. But between the two jobs I made enough to hang out with friends and build a very fast '68 Pontiac Tempest. Did quite well picking up races on 39th Street.
Then I worked my way through part time college and part time working as an electrician. Working more and more in automated control systems which were very new at the time. That led to a position doing only controls work for Kerr-McGee. Which led to facility management.
Then I started where I am now. For the past 24 years I've been a building and grounds maintenance site manager at the same Fed Govt facility. But I've worked for 5 different contractors. Most have been very small and I've been site manager, HR, cust. relations, ?. Everything except payroll. The last contractor actually has just been awarded a second 5 years so for the first time I'm working for the same employer for more than 5 years. I started 24 years ago at $48k per year. Last year I made just short of 6 figures. At what has been the normal annual raise, by contract, I'd have hit 6 figures next year.
But starting June 1 the govt. has taken a stance with contractors that have multiple sites that they don't have site management anymore. Multiple sites are supposed to be managed centrally by a corporate office position. My employer decided that this wouldn't work. Correctly. Because our function is so different from anything else the contractor does at other sites. So I'm unofficially working from home, part-time. Limited to no more than 15 hours per week. Hourly rate based on what my salary was divided by 2080.
So now our household income is only about $60k. Our house is paid off. All 3 cars (1, 2019 and 2, 2002s) are paid off. Mostly because a couple years ago I saw this situation coming and buckled down to pay everything off. But even at 60k after taxes, insurance on everything, phones, internet and other utilities we can go out a time or two a week. And cover things like the garage door opener that died a couple weeks ago. I really don't know what we'll do when my wife's '02 Liberty bites the dust. It has 225k miles and it's going to someday. So the earlier comment of around 40k being a minimum living wage sounds to me to be pretty close. I wouldn't have thought so 6 months ago but I can see it now.

My first real adult job where you go to work M-F, 8 hrs a day was at age 21 at Western Electric for $4.22/hr. Within that first year I moved out on my own from having a roommate in an apartment to living by myself in a rent house, bought a new 15" ski boat and a new used car. Within 2 years I bought a 1150 sq ft brick house with a 2 car attached garage in Warr Acres with a 9.5% mortgage. Using this inflation calculator https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ That same 4.22 would be 23.33 or $48526/year today. My 4.22 back then was very livable for a single person. By the time I bought the house I was probably making around 5.50/hr.

I would start by looking at what my competitors were paying. If I wanted to just get by, start there or a little lower (expect more turnover). If I wanted to be a "high-end" restaurant (like CFA), I would pay more to keep the good employees... and once you proved you are reliable and a good employee, I would make sure compensate you accordingly so I didn't lose you to another restaurant (or even another industry)... at least until the labor force exceeded the labor budget (which will vary based on a number of factors). Basically, you get what you pay for.

So, to answer your question, it could be anywhere from $10/hr to $15/hr, after all is considered. Show me you are worth more and get more. Show me you are worth less and be careful of being replaced.

The Irony of using the phrase, "You get what you pay for," while then giving the starting wage at $10 an hour in today's economy.

My first real adult job where you go to work M-F, 8 hrs a day was at age 21 at Western Electric for $4.22/hr. Within that first year I moved out on my own from having a roommate in an apartment to living by myself in a rent house, bought a new 15" ski boat and a new used car. Within 2 years I bought a 1150 sq ft brick house with a 2 car attached garage in Warr Acres with a 9.5% mortgage. Using this inflation calculator https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ That same 4.22 would be 23.33 or $48526/year today. My 4.22 back then was very livable for a single person. By the time I bought the house I was probably making around 5.50/hr.

So you bought a house with a yearly income of around 13,000 a year? My math might be wrong, I am sure I will get a comment about it.

So you bought a house with a yearly income of around 13,000 a year? My math might be wrong, I am sure I will get a comment about it.

I just checked my Social Security Earnings Records and in 1978 when I bought the house I made 15560 that year. So I probably made a bit more than the 5.50 and/or worked a little overtime too. It was a union hourly job that paid time and 1/2 for overtime. The house was 35K and I borrowed 31K on a 30 year loan My house payments were around $290/mo with taxes and insurance to start out if I recall. I was able to do it. I was also still single with no kids. Didn't get married until age 36.
I should add that was October 1976 when I started that job and May 1978 when I bought the house.

And I have always used hourly wage times 2080 hrs to figure yearly income.

So you bought a house with a yearly income of around 13,000 a year? My math might be wrong, I am sure I will get a comment about it.
Don't know about him but I bought my first house in 1978 for $16k. My first 3 houses including that one didn't total $100k. And they weren't projects either.

Don't know about him but I bought my first house in 1978 for $16k. My first 3 houses including that one didn't total $100k. And they weren't projects either.

A guy I worked with at Western Electric would talk about his house payments on a house he bought in the early 60s were $68/month.

I just checked my Social Security Earnings Records and in 1978 when I bought the house I made 15560 that year. So I probably made a bit more than the 5.50 and/or worked a little overtime too. It was a union hourly job that paid time and 1/2 for overtime. The house was 35K and I borrowed 31K on a 30 year loan My house payments were around $290/mo with taxes and insurance to start out if I recall. I was able to do it. I was also still single with no kids. Didn't get married until age 36.
I should add that was October 1976 when I started that job and May 1978 when I bought the house.

And I have always used hourly wage times 2080 hrs to figure yearly income.

Your information is so helpful. Thank you for giving us a window into the past when it comes to wages.

Don't know about him but I bought my first house in 1978 for $16k. My first 3 houses including that one didn't total $100k. And they weren't projects either.

The first place I bought was a Condo in the early 2000's. I was straight out of college and had a great job at a country club. I made about $10 an hour. The Condo was a lease to own and I ended up buying it for $65,000. The mortgage rate was a little high and I had a car payment. There were also HOA dues I had to pay. I lived paycheck to paycheck back then though.

Your information is so helpful. Thank you for giving us a window into the past when it comes to wages.

Well that sounds pretty snarky but I also included what those wages would be today.

Well that sounds pretty snarky but I also included what those wages would be today.

I was being honest. I appreciate your input on this topic. Sorry if it came across snarky.

I don’t know why things need to be over complicated. Living wage should be just that something you can live off of. I think most people would consider at least having some disposable income to be able to save a little bit of money. Be able to go and eat at least once or twice a month. Having adequate transportation. Being able to eat. Paying utility bills. You would own whatever domicile you reside in. Healthcare. Etc.

Anything else like well what about having children? What if you smoke or drink? What foods are affordable to you that you can eat to be healthy? None of that is neither here nor there. All that can be worked out.

Any job you work whether it’s minimum wage or not, If it’s a full-time job, It should be enough to pay livable wage. It’s pretty crazy we’re in the 21st-century and trying to define what livable means.

From my experience, a more and more companies are paying way more than 15.00 to get the talent level they want. I think people should get a livable wage, but they are also responsible for earing it too. I worked my way through college in the late 70's on 3.00 an hour working in a hot greasy factory. That alone motivated me to work harder to get ahead. My friends were all out having fun in the evenings, and I was studying. It took me longer but I kept my eye on the prize. I have 4 daughters and have always pushed them to be the best they can be. It starts with work ethic. Two of them bought a house while working as a server. Both have moved on to other career paths and neither graduated college. They did it by showing up every day on time, working hard and going above and beyond. My point is that anybody can make a good living if they are willing to put in the work.

Just for reference, since I dont know when the "late 70s" is more specifically:
3.00/hr in 1979 = $13.82/hr in 2024 adjusted for inflation.
1978 = $15.10
1977 = $16.13

The other way around - $15/hr now would have been about $3.56/hr in 1979, $3.20 in 1978 and $2.97 in 1977.

So it seems $15/hr is roughly equivalent to what you made in the late 70s.

The Irony of using the phrase, "You get what you pay for," while then giving the starting wage at $10 an hour in today's economy.

Where exactly is the irony?

While I do not own a fast food restaurant, so I haven't done all the research required to run said business. However, I am assuming (based on one of the first posts in this thread) that the average fast food pay is $11.64. If you are hiring at $10/hr, the better employees will go across the street to the place starting at $12/hr... you will get the leftovers (likely not the same quality, but there's a chance). The $10/hr person develops skill by working there, they can then go across the street and start making that $12/hr or more, since they now have more skills. Or maybe they are a great employee with demonstrated skills and hit up CFA for $15/hr or so. If the employee isn't good or is lazy, those other places won't hire them and they likely won't earn an increase. Thus getting what you pay for (pay bad, get bad or pay good, get good)... don't see the irony, just facts.

Having a house is a luxury (I did not say housing). I lived in a apartment for many years of my adult life, until I was to the point in which I could buy one. Cars are not fully necessary, as you can get much cheaper transportation (bus, motorcycle, bike, etc.)... but even if you got a car, you don't have to have a brand new one or one that looks awesome. I clarified myself above regarding the cell phone... you may need one, just not a brand new one, every 2 years . Houses, new cars, new cells.. those ARE luxuries... you don't NEED any of that... those are WANTS. Those luxuries shouldn't be given to you, but you should earn them.

And while I am clarifying... when I say hard work, I am not referring to physical labor, type of hard work... I am talking about being on time, being reliable, doing what you are supposed to be doing, getting thing your task complete, developing new skills, being a benefit to the company, etc. If your company doesn't reward you for your hard work, there are plenty of others out there that will. Maybe after your shift, hit up a library to learn more skills. There are many ways to improve yourself than just hoping for the best. (And to further clarify, "you" in this context doesn't mean you personally, but a generic you.)

You're being disingenuous. I'll give you the house v housing distinction (although there's probably another discussion in there), but you didn't qualify the car and the phone. You said "Plus, entry level fast food jobs are not supposed provide enough money for a house, a car, cell phones, and all sorts of other luxuries." If you meant to say "Plus, entry level fast food jobs are not supposed provide enough money for a house, a brand new car with all the add-ons, top of the line cell phones every two years, and all sorts of other luxuries." then I'll take your word for it, but that's not what you actually said.

You sidestepped everything else I said. If a person is riding the bus and having to work multiple "entry level fast food jobs" that aren't paying them enough to survive, they don't have time to "go to the library and learn a skill". And dollars to donuts they are "working hard" in both the "expending a lot of physical and mental effort to do the actual tasks required of them" sense and the "being on time, etc." sense you said. But if the bus breaks down and they're late for no fault of their own, they get fired because the boss cares more about flaunting his superiority and giving platitudes about hard work than understanding reality or, heaven forbid, having a sense of human compassion. So now our worker is desperately looking for any work she can get because if she misses rent she's out on her butt.

Its not impossible to do the things you say so long as you've got some semblance of security and consistency. But if you're spending all of your time and energy just trying to scrape by you don't have the bandwidth to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and "learn a skill". Making the minimum wage a livable wage and keeping it there ensures that anyone, no matter their background, have a chance at all the things you said. Anything else is judging people for their circumstances and tooting your own horn for having opportunities that they might not have.

I just checked my Social Security Earnings Records and in 1978 when I bought the house I made 15560 that year. So I probably made a bit more than the 5.50 and/or worked a little overtime too. It was a union hourly job that paid time and 1/2 for overtime. The house was 35K and I borrowed 31K on a 30 year loan My house payments were around $290/mo with taxes and insurance to start out if I recall. I was able to do it. I was also still single with no kids. Didn't get married until age 36.
I should add that was October 1976 when I started that job and May 1978 when I bought the house.

And I have always used hourly wage times 2080 hrs to figure yearly income.

So the equivalent in today's money would be about $76k (above the median household income in OKC by about $10k) buying a $171k house buy borrowing $151k.

Looking at Zillow:
There are only 153 houses in OKC at or below $175k.
There are 1,546 houses for sale in OKC.

So, less than 10% of the homes for sale would be in that price range.

I was being honest. I appreciate your input on this topic. Sorry if it came across snarky.

Understand I chose to have material things over having a wife and kids at a young age so I was able to pull it off on that income. A living wage has a lot to do with life choices you make.

Understand I chose to have material things over having a wife and kids at a young age so I was able to pull it off on that income. A living wage has a lot to do with life choices you make.

I am 44 years old, never had kids and never married, yet. I totally understand where you are coming from.

So the equivalent in today's money would be about $76k (above the median household income in OKC by about $10k) buying a $171k house buy borrowing $151k.

Looking at Zillow:
There are only 153 houses in OKC at or below $175k.
There are 1,546 houses for sale in OKC.

So, less than 10% of the homes for sale would be in that price range.

Factor in my 9.5% mortgage I had which was the norm back them. Heck, the house I bought in 1996 on a 15 year loan which always has a lower interest was at 7 1/8% The lower interest rates of late have spoiled home buyers. That 9.5 or 7 1/8 didn't keep me out of the market when I wanted a house.

You're being disingenuous. I'll give you the house v housing distinction (although there's probably another discussion in there), but you didn't qualify the car and the phone. You said "Plus, entry level fast food jobs are not supposed provide enough money for a house, a car, cell phones, and all sorts of other luxuries." If you meant to say "Plus, entry level fast food jobs are not supposed provide enough money for a house, a brand new car with all the add-ons, top of the line cell phones every two years, and all sorts of other luxuries." then I'll take your word for it, but that's not what you actually said.

You sidestepped everything else I said. If a person is riding the bus and having to work multiple "entry level fast food jobs" that aren't paying them enough to survive, they don't have time to "go to the library and learn a skill". And dollars to donuts they are "working hard" in both the "expending a lot of physical and mental effort to do the actual tasks required of them" sense and the "being on time, etc." sense you said. But if the bus breaks down and they're late for no fault of their own, they get fired because the boss cares more about flaunting his superiority and giving platitudes about hard work than understanding reality or, heaven forbid, having a sense of human compassion. So now our worker is desperately looking for any work she can get because if she misses rent she's out on her butt.

Its not impossible to do the things you say so long as you've got some semblance of security and consistency. But if you're spending all of your time and energy just trying to scrape by you don't have the bandwidth to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and "learn a skill". Making the minimum wage a livable wage and keeping it there ensures that anyone, no matter their background, have a chance at all the things you said. Anything else is judging people for their circumstances and tooting your own horn for having opportunities that they might not have.

Well Said!!!

FDR signed the FLSA in 1938, setting the minimum wage at $0.25/hr effective October 24, 1938. As pointed out, this was also to create a minimum standard of living. Adjusted to July 2024 dollars, the minimum wage SHOULD BE $5.62/hr based on the government’s own CPI Inflation Calculator.

This indicates that even the $7.25 is more than enough to supply an individual with a minimum standard of living based on the context of the law.

Fortunately, for those that haven’t developed more than minimal skills, the free market is requiring companies to pay even more than the current federal minimum wage. In fact, most are paying double or triple the inflation adjusted minimum standard of living set into law.

Note: these aren’t my numbers, they are actual government data.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/minimum-wage/history/chart
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=0.25&year1=194510&year2=202407

FDR signed the FLSA in 1938, setting the minimum wage at $0.25/hr effective October 24, 1938. As pointed out, this was also to create a minimum standard of living. Adjusted to July 2024 dollars, the minimum wage SHOULD BE $5.62/hr based on the government’s own CPI Inflation Calculator.

This indicates that even the $7.25 is more than enough to supply an individual with a minimum standard of living based on the context of the law.

Fortunately, for those that haven’t developed more than minimal skills, the free market is requiring companies to pay even more than the current federal minimum wage. In fact, most are paying double or triple the inflation adjusted minimum standard of living set into law.

Note: these aren’t my numbers, they are actual government data.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/minimum-wage/history/chart
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=0.25&year1=194510&year2=202407

Your government data seems to believe that the minimum standard of living is well below the poverty line in the US, based on government data.

You're being disingenuous. I'll give you the house v housing distinction (although there's probably another discussion in there), but you didn't qualify the car and the phone. You said "Plus, entry level fast food jobs are not supposed provide enough money for a house, a car, cell phones, and all sorts of other luxuries." If you meant to say "Plus, entry level fast food jobs are not supposed provide enough money for a house, a brand new car with all the add-ons, top of the line cell phones every two years, and all sorts of other luxuries." then I'll take your word for it, but that's not what you actually said.

You sidestepped everything else I said. If a person is riding the bus and having to work multiple "entry level fast food jobs" that aren't paying them enough to survive, they don't have time to "go to the library and learn a skill". And dollars to donuts they are "working hard" in both the "expending a lot of physical and mental effort to do the actual tasks required of them" sense and the "being on time, etc." sense you said. But if the bus breaks down and they're late for no fault of their own, they get fired because the boss cares more about flaunting his superiority and giving platitudes about hard work than understanding reality or, heaven forbid, having a sense of human compassion. So now our worker is desperately looking for any work she can get because if she misses rent she's out on her butt.

Its not impossible to do the things you say so long as you've got some semblance of security and consistency. But if you're spending all of your time and energy just trying to scrape by you don't have the bandwidth to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and "learn a skill". Making the minimum wage a livable wage and keeping it there ensures that anyone, no matter their background, have a chance at all the things you said. Anything else is judging people for their circumstances and tooting your own horn for having opportunities that they might not have.

No, I don’t think I am. A cheap apartment will work over a house, a moped would work over a car (or even a bicycle or motorcycle), if you don’t want the bus. I already admitted the phone could have been state better originally.

There are 168 hours in a week. Say you work 40 of them (5 8-hour days), 5 hours to get to/from work (assume 30 min each direction), and sleep 7 hours/day… I’ll even give you 2 hours / day to eat (30 min breakfast and lunch and 1 hour dinner). That leaves 60 hours per week (36%) that you CHOOSE what to do with. You can even get a 2nd job with that much time left.

This is America… everyone that want a chance, has a chance, they just have to make good choices. Maybe I should “toot my own horn” for not doing drugs and knocking up someone at the age of 15 or whatever. Those choices worked for me… and many, many other people. You just have to want to succeed.