We know we do not have a crystal ball. Question? What is your opinion on OKC long term sustainability? I feel the city has much untapped potential, however based on recent newspaper editorials young people are starting to move out of the State because the opportunities just are not there and they are leaning towards better job offers and more progressive forward thinking politics in other places. Our politics do not help in anyway. What are things that can help OKC have a more bright, sustained future? Any thoughts?

One thing comes to mind is for the State to be more proactive in getting better job opportunities for them to stay! We need more taxpayers, not taxes.

We know we do not have a crystal ball. Question? What is your opinion on OKC long term sustainability? I feel the city has much untapped potential, however based on recent newspaper editorials young people are starting to move out of the State because the opportunities just are not there and they are leaning towards better job offers and more progressive forward thinking politics in other places. Our politics do not help in anyway. What are things that can help OKC have a more bright, sustained future? Any thoughts?

Texas has almost the same policies (especially of late) and they are killing it in terms of growth.

The biggest difference between the states is that Texas invests in education and has several excellent universities, both public and private. Until Oklahoma gets serious on this front we are never going to see a lot of start-ups or tech companies electing to set up shop here. And that's how desirable and creative jobs come to be.

Texas has almost the same policies (especially of late) and they are killing it in terms of growth.

The biggest difference between the states is that Texas invests in education and has several excellent universities, both public and private. Until Oklahoma gets serious on this front we are never going to see a lot of start-ups or tech companies electing to set up shop here. And that's how desirable and creative jobs come to be.

The thing they have is UT makes more from their mineral interests than Oklahoma makes a year, as a whole. Most of their funding comes from that, I believe.

But your point stands true. Oklahoma needs to invest in higher education. They have stepped it up after years of cuts. Just need to figure out how to make the investments pay off.

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My posts are on a roll of being deleted, but one thing OK should do is consolidate some of these universities. It’s too few resources spread way too thin. They should focus on OU and OSU and maybe a couple others.

one thing OK should do is consolidate some of these universities. It’s too few resources spread way too thin. They should focus on OU and OSU and maybe a couple others.

The problem is that the smaller schools are the lifeblood of the towns in which they are located, and also provide easy commutes for people who don't have the money to go away to Stillwater or Norman.

There isn't the political will to take NWOSU from Alva, East Central from Ada, Northeastern from Talequah, or Southwestern from Weatherford. All those small towns are already suffering.

The problem is that the smaller schools are the lifeblood of the towns in which they are located, and also provide easy commutes for people who don't have the money to go away to Stillwater or Norman.

There isn't the political will to take NWOSU from Alva, East Central from Ada, Northeastern from Talequah, or Southwestern from Weatherford. All those small towns are already suffering.

If those smaller universities were closed, who would buy them? Likely nobody. They would just look abandoned, a needless waste.

Tahlequah certainly isn't doing bad as one of Oklahoma's fastest growing small towns outside of OKC and Tulsa metros.

We know we do not have a crystal ball. Question? What is your opinion on OKC long term sustainability? I feel the city has much untapped potential, however based on recent newspaper editorials young people are starting to move out of the State because the opportunities just are not there and they are leaning towards better job offers and more progressive forward thinking politics in other places. Our politics do not help in anyway. What are things that can help OKC have a more bright, sustained future? Any thoughts?

The question is how does one define "sustainable?" With the relative closeness of OKC to Mexico and the fast-growing Hispanic population, and the continued emptying of small town Oklahoma, it seems logical that OKC will continue to grow in sheer numbers for a number of years into the future. I see a future of 2 million population pretty easily. Maybe more. Ultimately those taps will begin to dry if there is not some reason beyond these for the growth to continue. OKC needs to look at the industries of the future and make the kinds of investments that will pay off 20-50 years down the road when the demography changes. I also think "sustainability" has to take a hard look at the sprawl. The city will collapse under the weight of its infrastructure needs if the drive to density and core development does not continue apace and speed up.

The thing they have is UT makes more from their mineral interests than Oklahoma makes a year, as a whole. Most of their funding comes from that, I believe.

But your point stands true. Oklahoma needs to invest in higher education. They have stepped it up after years of cuts. Just need to figure out how to make the investments pay off.

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Maybe that is why I hardly see any people with ideas from Oklahoma on Shark. It takes a good education to come up with inventive new business ideas. Since Oklahoma can't seem to attract much business, especially with high paying jobs from the outside, then it needs to invest better in education to help new ideas for business to come up within the state.

The question is how does one define "sustainable?" With the relative closeness of OKC to Mexico and the fast-growing Hispanic population, and the continued emptying of small town Oklahoma, it seems logical that OKC will continue to grow in sheer numbers for a number of years into the future. I see a future of 2 million population pretty easily. Maybe more. Ultimately those taps will begin to dry if there is not some reason beyond these for the growth to continue. OKC needs to look at the industries of the future and make the kinds of investments that will pay off 20-50 years down the road when the demography changes. I also think "sustainability" has to take a hard look at the sprawl. The city will collapse under the weight of its infrastructure needs if the drive to density and core development does not continue apace and speed up.

The 2023 Census estimate for Oklahoma City recently came out and it's 702,767 up from 695,278 in 2022.

Maybe that is why I hardly see any people with ideas from Oklahoma on Shark. It takes a good education to come up with inventive new business ideas. Since Oklahoma can't seem to attract much business, especially with high paying jobs from the outside, then it needs to invest better in education to help new ideas for business to come up within the state.

Oklahoma has improved higher Ed funding greatly over the last 5 years, and has shown a willingness to continue to. All the attention was on secondary and elementary ed, and rightfully so. But higher ed has gotten a pretty nice bump recently.

Not perfect, but improving. That's all you can do. Can't just imagine an extra billion into the budget.

I saw that. The metro area was closing in on 1.5 million. Something like 1,488,000. One more year and we should get there. Of course estimates are pretty flawed and are usually revised. But there is no doubt as to the momentum.

The more interesting question is the subject of dynamism vs. size. More, more, more should not necessarily be the goal in and of itself. I mean, Austin has 2 million something and Detroit has 4 million something. Which city would you rather be?

I do think OKC is held back by the state we are in, and the perception of it nationally as seen by educated folks who build and grow companies.

Oklahoma has improved higher Ed funding greatly over the last 5 years, and has shown a willingness to continue to. All the attention was on secondary and elementary ed, and rightfully so. But higher ed has gotten a pretty nice bump recently.

Not perfect, but improving. That's all you can do. Can't just imagine an extra billion into the budget.

Yet, they are trying to cut taxes further, which shows you how much they really care about education.

Yet, they are trying to cut taxes further, which shows you how much they really care about education.

They've tried for years, and haven't cut education since 2017.

Tax cuts don't mean they hate education. I'll stop getting political, though.

Tax cuts make it harder to fund anything, including education.

The best we can hope for is small increases which is never going to get us to where we need to go.

Oklahoma has improved higher Ed funding greatly over the last 5 years, and has shown a willingness to continue to. All the attention was on secondary and elementary ed, and rightfully so. But higher ed has gotten a pretty nice bump recently.

Not perfect, but improving. That's all you can do. Can't just imagine an extra billion into the budget.

I haven't looked how much they've increased higher education funding, but I doubt it's "greatly". And does it completely reverse how deeply they cut it for the 10 or so years before that (35-ish percent per student, I believe) so it's back up to what it was and/or what it should be (in line with other states)?

Higher education *and* K-12 both need better funding, better administration, and an actual focus on education, as well as a stop to the ridiculous antics at 23rd/Lincoln for OKC to have decent companies locate here, people to stay, etc. OKC is doing reasonably well in spite of 23rd/Lincoln, though, thankfully.

Tax cuts make it harder to fund anything, including education.

The best we can hope for is small increases which is never going to get us to where we need to go.

It's super hard to get taxes increased because of what the legislature did a bunch of years back (upped the threshold to an almost unattainable majority), so I doubt we'll ever get even small increases.

They've tried for years, and haven't cut education since 2017.

Tax cuts don't mean they hate education. I'll stop getting political, though.

Education has been made highly political with the current leadership… and not in a good way. And you can’t seriously believe our state leadership is committed to real educational improvements or even knows how to do it.

Education has been made highly political with the current leadership… and not in a good way.

that is laughable

I think we have a bright future. We are a southern city in a southern state. The south is seen as a fast, if not the fastest, growing part of the US. We might not like the politics and social aspects, but Oklahoma and OKC are just like all the other southern states. Texas, Georgia and Florida are hot spots, yet they share the rest of our policies.

OKC has abundant land. Access to water enough to handle any possible future growth for the next 100 years. Right in the middle of America, with 3 Interstate highways that provide "border to border- coast to coast" access.

We are at least 50 years younger than all out neighboring cities. We might be impatient, but we are well positioned.

I can't think of any city west of us that is more sustainable than Oklahoma City.

It's super hard to get taxes increased because of what the legislature did a bunch of years back (upped the threshold to an almost unattainable majority), so I doubt we'll ever get even small increases.

Taxes don’t need to increase. Administrative bloat needs to be eliminated and those dollars repurposed to teaching students. The growth in administrators has far outpaced student and teacher growth for decades.

The more interesting question is the subject of dynamism vs. size. More, more, more should not necessarily be the goal in and of itself. I mean, Austin has 2 million something and Detroit has 4 million something. Which city would you rather be?

Aye my guy, don’t call the coroner on Detroit yet. It’s slowly becoming a decently modern city and say what you will, but they have the historic bones that young, spicy, growing cities like Austin and Charlotte can’t replicate.

that is laughable

Do you ever feel awkward for laughing when no one else is?

If those smaller universities were closed, who would buy them? Likely nobody. They would just look abandoned, a needless waste.

Tahlequah certainly isn't doing bad as one of Oklahoma's fastest growing small towns outside of OKC and Tulsa metros.

IMO small schools are in danger of extinction anyway due to the rise of online schooling. No one is suggesting all of the small campuses be closed. Some of the schools that Pete mentioned will survive but the tiny ones like East Central, Panhandle State, Langston, and satellite campuses may be doomed. There is no way the state will be able to afford to fund dozens of campuses. Instead of dozens of locations, each with administration, regents and with classrooms and dorms, the focus should be on technology and bringing in better classes via internet. Yes it may be hard on individual communities but better to start a plan including ways to help ease the pain rather than an immediate, unexpected closing.

IMO small schools are in danger of extinction anyway due to the rise of online schooling. No one is suggesting all of the small campuses be closed. Some of the schools that Pete mentioned will survive but the tiny ones like East Central, Panhandle State, Langston, and satellite campuses may be doomed. There is no way the state will be able to afford to fund dozens of campuses. Instead of dozens of locations, each with administration, regents and with classrooms and dorms, the focus should be on technology and bringing in better classes via internet. Yes it may be hard on individual communities but better to start a plan including ways to help ease the pain rather than an immediate, unexpected closing.

I think Langston and Panhandle are both operated by the A&M regents, same as OSU. No idea about East Central. I don't know what we hope to gain by removing services from small towns in Oklahoma? We can't force everyone to "move to the City". Nor should we want to.

I think Langston and Panhandle are both operated by the A&M regents, same as OSU. No idea about East Central. I don't know what we hope to gain by removing services from small towns in Oklahoma? We can't force everyone to "move to the City". Nor should we want to.

It is not about forcing people to "move to the city." When you live in a small town you are not going to always have immediate access to every amenity. As the populations of small towns in Oklahoma decrease they are going to have to accept that certain services will be farther away. Unless the population can support a certain level of infrastructure it is not viable to provide it. You can not have a bank, post office, school, fire department, police station, etc. in a town with a population of 5 30 miles from the nearest other town. As a state our resources need to be better utilized to continue to grow the state and improve the quality of life for all Oklahomans. We can not do that by continuing to subsidize communities with services that do not make sense.

Very well said.

The interesting thing about small towns...

They generally continue to lose population even with the new "work from anywhere" model.


This is somewhat of a uniquely American problem because we have these huge spans of nothingness, especially west of the Mississippi there are big gaps between towns. Rural healthcare has been in crisis for decades but Oklahoma has 77 counties (California is much larger and only has 58) and they all have their own courthouses, sheriff departments, governments, school systems, social services, and all types of infrastructure in places with very little population.

It seems this rural/urban disparity is particularly acute in Oklahoma because we really only have 2 cities and there isn't much else over a very vast landscape.

Almost all these small towns grew from surrounding agriculture and ranching but with the industrialization of those industries, there are far fewer jobs. Also the death of oil companies in smaller communities (like Bartlesville and Ponca City) has really hurt.

At the same time, most of the growth of OKC is from the influx of people who grew up in rural Oklahoma. When I left OKC in 1989, I barely knew anyone from a small town. Now that I'm back, it's all I seem to meet. I know this because I have the habit of asking people where they went to high school, out of curiosity and as a bit of a parlor trick, where I can usually name their mascot. (Interestingly, I read that Aubrey McClendon would do the same thing in CHK new employee orientations). Poteau? Pirates! Carnegie? Wildcats! Lawton? Were you a Scot, Eagle, or Wolverine?

About small towns in Oklahoma and ag. First, people came for the free land. Who were most of them, poor people. I read an article in some state farm report that if farmers kept farming like they did, it was going to quickly wear out the land. I think that was from the 20s as in 1920. Back in the day there was a family on almost every quarter. Many could not make a go of it. Look back at tenant farmers. Want to see poor. My point being is that much of Oklahoma is not great farm land compared to other parts of the country. Now with the way things are, it takes more land and equipment to make a go of it. I really dont think we have that many profitable farms anymore. I might be wrong. one thing for sure is that rural Oklahoma is emptying out esp as you get away from Okc and Tulsa. Not much as far as good paying jobs. People have one choice and that is to get up and move.

A lot of economic problems in rural Oklahoma can be traced back to corporate farming consolidation and the need to return BIG money instead of smaller, more sustainable farms. The other big thing is the industrial exit from the United States; recently you can look at Ardmore and the loss of jobs at Uniroyal-Goodrich/Michelin. And going back further, the decimation of Ponca City by ConocoPhillips. Ponca lost 5,000+ jobs over a period of 15-18 years. There are many examples across the state. The bottom line is that when America was a manufacturing power, and farming was manageable and had products to sell to a thriving USA, small town Oklahoma was fine. Today, thanks to China, NAFTA, and everything else happening to our industrial base, (that Ross Perot warned us about in 1992), wealth and power has further consolidated and small town Oklahoma can no longer provide for its people. Not that many years ago it would have been inconceivable that we would have to talk about U.S. manufacturing in the past tense.

Kinda undercutting my previous argument, but farms and small towns have been dying off for over 100 years. I think the "Northern Migration" from the farm life of the Deep South to the auto, and other, manufacturing jobs in the late 1800s was the start. I know my parents left Perry around 1950 and never looked back.

I take some exception to the schools singled out upthread. Langston, as Oklahoma's only HBCU, IIRC, seems uniquely worthy of support; East Central, being located in Ada, which is the headquarters city of the Chickasaw Nation, seems well suited for continuing success and support; Panhandle State, being such a far west and north located school in the state, sure seems like it deserves support.

As far as OKC sustainability. Other than complaining about politics we don't like, it has a great future. Because water, land and a central location are vital.

"... Not that many years ago it would have been inconceivable that we would have to talk about U.S. manufacturing in the past tense."

The number of Americans in manufacturing jobs is rising, contrary to the doom and gloom of 'U.S. manufacturing is in irreversible decline' conventional wisdom. From the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics:

18831

The U.S. manufacturing sector is enormous, and that's unlikely to change. Only China's is larger. The U.S. has over twice the manufacturing output of Japan, the third-ranking country.

Many rural counties' populations peaked a hundred years ago. Fertility decreased following a few decades of intense farming to make ends meet. Also, mechanization meant fewer people were needed to work the same amount of land. A lot of people moved away (see: Californian Okies). The only thing left to grow in a lot of places was grass for hay and cattle, and you have to have a lot of cattle on a lot of land to support a family.

For those areas lucky enough to have oil and gas, those resources began to diminish, which led to fewer jobs and fewer mineral rights checks for those local people.

Economies of scale, free trade, and containerization moved the manufacturing of consumer goods to places outside of the small and midsized communities. When new businesses are opened in these small towns, they often complain about finding good employees. Drug use/abuse also doesn't help. As we've discussed on this forum before, when businesses are looking to open a facility, they would rather draw employees from a larger pool.

All that to say is, perhaps these rural places are actually coming back to an equilibrium that was inevitable once the resources in these places were used up.

All that to say is, perhaps these rural places are actually coming back to an equilibrium that was inevitable once the resources in these places were used up.

I think this is fair. People tend to look at some extreme outliers -- like a huge a manufacturing plant or oil company operating in a small town for a few decades -- as what *should* be in a community, instead of recognizing it as a somewhat short-term miracle that they were lucky to ever have had.

Or more to the point, these towns often sell their souls to one dominant company then are wrecked once they leave/go out of business/get sold, etc. We are watching Vinita do this with the RV and theme park in real-time.

The same things happen in bigger cities all the time (like GM leaving OKC or CHK dropping 5,000 employees) but they have the ability to offset and move forward.

Texas has almost the same policies (especially of late) and they are killing it in terms of growth.

The biggest difference between the states is that Texas invests in education and has several excellent universities, both public and private. Until Oklahoma gets serious on this front we are never going to see a lot of start-ups or tech companies electing to set up shop here. And that's how desirable and creative jobs come to be. Agree. I feel another factor is a good business climate in Texas that is not highly regulated, no State Income tax, no grocery tax, better job opportunities in the white collar world. The State of Texas continues to explode with growth which can also have a downside too it. Of course, this is my opinion, however you look at the tremendous success Texas has had with creating jobs, one must wonder what is Oklahoma doing wrong besides not supporting education?

Agree. I feel another factor is a good business climate in Texas that is not highly regulated, no State Income tax, no grocery tax, better job opportunities in the white collar world. The State of Texas continues to explode with growth which can also have a downside too it. Of course, this is my opinion, however you look at the tremendous success Texas has had with creating jobs, one must wonder what is Oklahoma doing wrong besides not supporting education?

Oklahoma's overall tax burden is less than in Texas.

Income tax is only a part of a much bigger calculation.

Oklahoma's overall tax burden is less than in Texas.

Income tax is only a part of a much bigger calculation. Agree again, however you must admit you see those taxes are being put to good use such as roads and increased infrastructure in Texas. What are your views on why Texas is so successful with recruiting businesses to their State? Obviously, companies are moving there at a really brisk pace. If you read the Dallas, Houston, Austin, San Antonio business journals, this will show the big impact and success Texas has had in recruiting new business to their State? I know Oklahoma can do it too!

Agree again, however you must admit you see those taxes are being put to good use such as roads and increased infrastructure in Texas. What are your views on why Texas is so successful with recruiting businesses to their State? Obviously, companies are moving there at a really brisk pace. If you read the Dallas, Houston, Austin, San Antonio business journals, this will show the big impact and success Texas has had in recruiting new business to their State? I know Oklahoma can do it too!

Oil money. They have tons of it, in amounts Oklahoma can only dream of. They pay a lot of it out to companies (at the expense of citizens in the form of property tax relief, until recently).

They also just have a ton of people. Even if they are barely higher in education rankings by having 10 times the people of Oklahoma (and a lot of states), they can offer capital in ways other states just can't.

And they're infrastructure is failing rapidly, and falling behind. Every city is one big traffic jam. You can drive for 2 hours in Houston and still be in *checks notes* Houston. Dallas is getting just as bad, if not worse in some areas. Austin is, as well.

So yes, Texas has some natural advantages, like thr Permian Basin, which the UT and TAMU college systems have a ton of mineral interests in to help fund the colleges and endowments, and 35 million people. But there are a lot of things not so great about Texas. I'm not saying they are worse than Oklahoma, in any way. But their advantages are just hard to replicate for Oklahoma. Even getting rid of all taxes, and spending hundreds of millions more on education, we still wouldn't get the same corporate relocation, due to not enough people here or money to offer as incentives, like Texas does.

Again, not bashing at all. Just stating that a lot of their advantages are ones that Oklahoma cannot replicate, no matter how hard they try.

I know Texas is bigger and better, but I think a better comparison would be how we stack up against Arkansas, Kansas and out other neighboring states. Almost every state in the union is dwarfed by Texas.

Just a few thoughts on "sustainability" and my feeble attempts of SWOT analysis.

As residents of Oklahoma, we need to focus on states with roughly the same land area and population (like Iowa, West Virginia or Arkansas) instead of Texas. Oklahoma will never be able to compare to Texas and will get beat by them in almost every aspect. (Dob Hooligan beat me to the punch. GMTA)

More focus on vocational trades and manual labor in high school compared to higher education as an ultimate goal needs to be promoted. Let's be honest, most students are not cut out for higher education. There is a huge need for truck drivers, auto mechanics, aviation and child care. Sadly. most home economics and vocational trades have been removed from urban high schools.

Oklahoma does not have the beaches nor mountains that tend to draw the creatives and their businesses. Most business that employ a highly intelligent workforce prefer a temperate climate or C-suite windowed offices with views of a body of water, geological feature of bustling metropolis. If we can't get the "thinkers" we need to go after the "doers".

Blistering hot summers, constant threat of severe weather and icy winters (rather than snow) in Oklahoma could potentially prevent businesses to relocate to Oklahoma. We need to scout out companies who are "tough enough" to relocate here.

Honestly, the adoption of legalized marijuana with nor forethought by our politicians to properly establish of prudent laws regarding regulation and oversight has hurt and blighted our state.

Just a few thoughts on "sustainability" and my feeble attempts of SWOT analysis.

As residents of Oklahoma, we need to focus on states with roughly the same land area and population (like Iowa, West Virginia or Arkansas) instead of Texas. Oklahoma will never be able to compare to Texas and will get beat by them in almost every aspect. (Dob Hooligan beat me to the punch. GMTA)

More focus on vocational trades and manual labor in high school compared to higher education as an ultimate goal needs to be promoted. Let's be honest, most students are not cut out for higher education. There is a huge need for truck drivers, auto mechanics, aviation and child care. Sadly. most home economics and vocational trades have been removed from urban high schools.

Oklahoma does not have the beaches nor mountains that tend to draw the creatives and their businesses. Most business that employ a highly intelligent workforce prefer a temperate climate or C-suite windowed offices with views of a body of water, geological feature of bustling metropolis. If we can't get the "thinkers" we need to go after the "doers".

Blistering hot summers, constant threat of severe weather and icy winters (rather than snow) in Oklahoma could potentially prevent businesses to relocate to Oklahoma. We need to scout out companies who are "tough enough" to relocate here.

Honestly, the adoption of legalized marijuana with nor forethought by our politicians to properly establish of prudent laws regarding regulation and oversight has hurt and blighted our state.

...
Honestly, the adoption of legalized marijuana with nor forethought by our politicians to properly establish of prudent laws regarding regulation and oversight has hurt and blighted our state.

Got any proof of that? How about alcohol or meth, are those as bad as marijuana, do they "hurt and blight" our state as much as it does?