I've been seeing a lot of reports across different social media platforms about Total Wine and More coming into Moore in the old Bed Bath and Beyond in SE quadrant of I35 and 19th St. If true, this will be a game changer. Total Wine and More is an awesome store that I visit sometimes in the Dallas area, though I first discovered it in Santa Fe NM.

Total Wine and Moore :wink:

I've been seeing a lot of reports across different social media platforms about Total Wine and More coming into Moore in the old Bed Bath and Beyond in SE quadrant of I35 and 19th St. If true, this will be a game changer. Total Wine and More is an awesome store that I visit sometimes in the Dallas area, though I first discovered it in Santa Fe NM.

Isn't the issue with stores like this that they can't sell alcohol (other than wine and beer) given their format? Same with BevMo.

And I used to go to one in California and liquor was a huge part of their business.

I have no clue what those laws are, however I do know that there are laws of single ownership meaning a single person cannot own more than one store or something along those lines. I can't find anything on the internet, but have been seeing reports here and there in social media for some time now. Today I've seen people posting that they are contractors that put in a bid for the retrofitting the old building space so I decided to post something on here about it.

Isn't the issue with stores like this that they can't sell alcohol (other than wine and beer) given their format? Same with BevMo.

And I used to go to one in California and liquor was a huge part of their business.

i believe they can, but would be limited to a total of 2 locations in the state, if they go that route.

I have no clue what those laws are, however I do know that there are laws of single ownership meaning a single person cannot own more than one store or something along those lines. I can't find anything on the internet, but have been seeing reports here and there in social media for some time now. Today I've seen people posting that they are contractors that put in a bid for the retrofitting the old building space so I decided to post something on here about it.

it's two stores. a single person or entity can only have a max of two locations. i also do believe that they would have to create a business entity within the state of oklahoma in order to get the license, because license holders can only be citizens of the state or llc's registered within the state.

^^ very good, thank you!

We recently discovered Total Wine in Wichita. I really hope they are coming here and I wish it was in North OKC, rather than Moore.

The one in Wichita is so new that it still smelled like fresh sawn lumber.

it's two stores. a single person or entity can only have a max of two locations. i also do believe that they would have to create a business entity within the state of oklahoma in order to get the license, because license holders can only be citizens of the state or llc's registered within the state.

So no matter what, we are limited to 2 Total Wine and More stores in the entire state? That wouldn't really be efficient for them, so I doubt they will come here, if that is the case.

Or can they have different franchisees (or some comparable form of ownership)?

I just don't see Oklahoma as an economically viable market if they only have 2 stores (I assume in OKC, 1 in Tulsa).

...

If this "2 locations is okay" rule applies, why don't Trade Joe's or Whole Foods have liquor?

Extremely high profit margins.

If this "2 locations is okay" rule applies, why don't Trade Joe's or Whole Foods have liquor?

Extremely high profit margins.

I thought that the owners of liquor store licenses had to be OK residents and had to have lived here for a certain period of time. Could be wrong, thought that's the way it originally was after the laws got changed, may be different by now.

Nm

With the caveat that I have not researched this myself, my understanding is that they will get the store set up done and then sue to change the law. They did this in another state and was successful. May be an issue that they don't have legal standing until they apply for the license and get turned down. Can't apply for a license without a location.

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/26/732524432/supreme-court-hands-total-wine-other-out-of-state-liquor-retailers-big-win

With the caveat that I have not researched this myself, my understanding is that they will get the store set up done and then sue to change the law. They did this in another state and was successful. May be an issue that they don't have legal standing until they apply for the license and get turned down. Can't apply for a license without a location.

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/26/732524432/supreme-court-hands-total-wine-other-out-of-state-liquor-retailers-big-win

thank you for posting the link that is very very interesting

With the caveat that I have not researched this myself, my understanding is that they will get the store set up done and then sue to change the law. They did this in another state and was successful. May be an issue that they don't have legal standing until they apply for the license and get turned down. Can't apply for a license without a location.

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/26/732524432/supreme-court-hands-total-wine-other-out-of-state-liquor-retailers-big-win

Just based off reading the article, I'd assume they have some ground to stand on. The USSC ruled that the State laws unfairly favored residence and thus improper commerce. Will be very interesting if they try that here, you'd have to think it would spur on another wave of law changes.

If this "2 locations is okay" rule applies, why don't Trade Joe's or Whole Foods have liquor?

Extremely high profit margins.

my assumption would be the negative impacts of having to run those stores under a separate Oklahoma created LLC, rather than just under the parent company.

I was told that Total Wine is owned by Attorneys.

I was told that Total Wine is owned by Attorneys.

Of the two brothers that own Total Wine, one has his MBA from Wharton and the other has his undergrad degree from Wharton and his law degree from U Penn. To say they are highly educated and have a rolodex of very educated colleagues would be an understatement.

I was told that Total Wine is owned by Attorneys.

It’s owned by a big congressman based out of Potomac, Maryland.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Trone

It’s owned by a big congressman based out of Potomac, Maryland.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Trone

Both posts appear to be right.

https://www.totalwine.com/about-us/our-leadership#:~:text=David%20Trone%20%7C%20Owner&text=Total%20Wine%20%26%20More%20is%20now,beverage %20retailer%20in%20the%20country.

Job posting for Total Wine in Moore

https://www.salary.com/job/total-wine-more/retail-store-manager-new-store-opening-moore-ok/j202403230459254222706

it's two stores. a single person or entity can only have a max of two locations. i also do believe that they would have to create a business entity within the state of oklahoma in order to get the license, because license holders can only be citizens of the state or llc's registered within the state.

There is (or was) a minimum time you had to be resident in the state as well.

If this "2 locations is okay" rule applies, why don't Trade Joe's or Whole Foods have liquor?

Extremely high profit margins.

Because the liquor license restricts them to selling no more than 20 or 25% non-alcohol items, at least that was the initial limit agreed to. Some of these rules that were incorporated back when refrigeration was brought in have changed some. Like there used to ABV caps on wine and beer in grocery stores but I believe that's been raised or done away with altogether.

Keep in mind that the limitation to two (liquor) licensed stores, the cap on non-alcohol items sold in a store where spirits are sold, minimum residency time, etc. are all things the Retail Liquor Association of Oklahoma (RLAO) fought for. Their intent was to mitigate "damage" done by allowing grocery and convenience stores to sell strong beer and wine. They didn't/don't want those entities selling spirits. They also do not want the likes of Total Wine or Specs coming in and dominating the market putting more of the little mom and pop stores out of business.

I don't think the liquor issue will prevent Total Wine from having more than 2 locations in the state. There are many Total Wine locations in Virginia and none of them sell liquor as it is exclusively sold in state-run ABC stores.

I wonder if they'll do that work-around where they have an adjacent but separate liquor store.

This was the plan for Costco but they never followed through.

I don't think the liquor issue will prevent Total Wine from having more than 2 locations in the state. There are many Total Wine locations in Virginia and none of them sell liquor as it is exclusively sold in state-run ABC stores.

If they don't sell spirits they would not be limited to two locations or have the residency restrictions either. In essence a wine/beer specialty store could come in and have favorable hours, multiple locations, etc. with virtually none of the limitations that a spirit-based liquor store has. It's a niche business but one I keyed in the opportunities back before the law was ever updated. Perhaps the numbers don't (or didn't) make sense for anybody to bother with the concept.

^

They are so focused on wine that I could see them just leaving out spirits, because they also have a huge beer and seltzer selection.

It's totally different than BevMo, which is much more about liquor.

I hope they don't leave out spirits. Total Wine's whisky selection is top notch in other states.

Hopefully we’re not changing any liquor laws on Trone’s account.

^

They are so focused on wine that I could see them just leaving out spirits, because they also have a huge beer and seltzer selection.

It's totally different than BevMo, which is much more about liquor.

They very well could be going that route with intention of adding spirits later on....or like mentioned, building the store and then suing to get the law updated to allow for them to carry spirits.

I do love supporting my favorite local retail stores here in Norman and OKC but I also love Spec's, especially their newer stores. Those places take "liquor store" to an entirely different level.

I'd expect this store to get opened up as a normal Total Wine and then they start the process of litigation to change the laws.

I'd expect this store to get opened up as a normal Total Wine and then they start the process of litigation to change the laws.

this is my thoughts as well... it seems to be what they have done in several other states

I was looking on the Wichita location's website and it has this disclaimer

18794

I was looking on the Wichita location's website and it has this disclaimer

18794

yep. the oklahoma one will be done this way as well. and then they will use that to try and push to challenge the laws

Before moving back to OKC last year, I lived in Plano and there was a Total Wine off of Plano Parkway that I would go and make purchases. Loved their selection and the staff were well informed on their wine recommendations too! It was a pleasant shopping experience. Would love to see them open a second location at the former Bed Bath & Beyond space on 63rd & N. May Avenue. Nice central location!

The first shot has been fired. ABLE lays down the gauntlet.
https://www.koco.com/article/total-wne-oklahoma-moore-able-commission-denies-petition/60795259

The first shot has been fired. ABLE lays down the gauntlet.
https://www.koco.com/article/total-wne-oklahoma-moore-able-commission-denies-petition/60795259

well, i mean we all knew this was going to be the way it would go. that this would be a muli-year legal battle. and it makes sense for it to start here.

Hopefully it doesn't take years. I live in far NW OKC and even if they build one in this area, I would still frequent my neighborhood shops, just for the convenience. I often go to Neighborhood Market because I don't want to deal with the hassle of going to Crest.

You would think they are looking hard at the old BBB at NW 63rd & May; assuming they can work out the legal aspects.

Has anyone taken the old BBB space at Bryant Square in Edmond?

I feel like this is a common thing, and not just oklahoma. Or more that Total Wine changed numerous laws in numerous states, and Oklahoma will likely be next.

Doesn't seem like a major issue.

You would think they are looking hard at the old BBB at NW 63rd & May; assuming they can work out the legal aspects.

Has anyone taken the old BBB space at Bryant Square in Edmond?

yep Burlington IIRC

I feel like this is a common thing, and not just oklahoma. Or more that Total Wine changed numerous laws in numerous states, and Oklahoma will likely be next.

Doesn't seem like a major issue.

yes i believe they are currently now 6-0 in forcing states to change their laws. this was the expected process.

yes i believe they are currently now 6-0 in forcing states to change their laws. this was the expected process.

Nice!

yes i believe they are currently now 6-0 in forcing states to change their laws. this was the expected process.

They lost this Conn. case

https://www.alcohollawreview.com/new-antitrust-lawsuit-filed-in-connecticut/

It also apoears they are under FTC investigatjon for monoply issues.
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/retail/2023/10/20/feds-sue-total-wine-as-part-of-an-antitrust-investigation-into-southern-glazers/

TW&M is going to be a great get for the state. I wish we could get Specs in here as well. Love that place, too.

If they succeed in changing the law, I hope BevMo follows.

I swear this state. . . .

https://www.yahoo.com/news/total-wine-more-appeals-state-112800827.html

^

They were always going to be denied. Their MO is to appeal and ultimately challenge the law.

I swear this state. . . .

https://www.yahoo.com/news/total-wine-more-appeals-state-112800827.html

There are 36 other states like Oklahoma, in this situation.

As Pete said, they challenge starw laws, and usually win. Not always, but usually.

Total Wine & More is planning a location in the old Gold Gym’s space at 3625 NW Expressway just east of Portland.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/totalwine103024e.jpg


In March, we were first to report the chain was planning a location in Moore. Afterward, their liquor license application was rejected by the ABLE commission, as state law does not allow out-of-state ownership.

However, Total Wine is in the process of appealing that decision and has been successful in overturning similar statutes in several other states. The plan for a second location seems to indicate confidence in moving forward in Oklahoma. If things proceed, look for a third location in the Memorial/Edmond area.


Total Wine & More is the largest independent retailer of fine wine and operates 266 stores in 28 states.

A typical store is 25,000 square feet and carries more than 8,000 different wines from every wine-producing region in the world. They also carry more than 2,500 beers including many hard-to-find microbrews and imports. Plus 3,000 different spirits as well as all types of mixers and entertaining accessories.

The stores have frequent tastings and classes as well.



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/totalwine103024a.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/totalwine103024c.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/totalwine033124ei.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/totalwine033124fg.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/totalwine033124fi.jpg

I'd assume they are very confident if they are still planning additional locations, this is honestly a big win.

The irony of this being right next to a grocery store that got rid of alcohol completely isn't lost on me.

They must be confident in overturning OK state law. We shall see.

Ya those are going to be a massive success. I expect the liquor store lobbies to fight this one tooth and nail.

Very happy to hear this!!

So Awesome!

That location will always be Circuit City to me and not Gold's Gym. :D

That location will always be Circuit City to me and not Gold's Gym. :D

it's the circuit city where i bought my first computer!

I don't have any inside information, but the old Dick's on Penn north of Memorial would be a great spot for a 3rd Total Wine location.