There is a potential project brewing on this largely vacant block in the middle of Midtown.

There is the old halfway house apartment complex in the middle south section, which has been abandoned for a while. Also a couple of older homes facing ninth.

The entire block -- except one home owned by Midtown Renaissance -- is owned by the Corsair group. My understanding is there is a prominent local developer who is working on a large residential complex with some restaurant/retail space. The land sale has not yet closed.

Corsair owns a bunch of land in Midtown but is generally a speculator, not a developer. They did renovate the building on this same block that contains Jimmy's Egg. They also renovated a series of buildings to the south along Hudson; also just purchased the downtown Purina plan which is in the process of being demolished.

This is a key block and if everything moves forward, will go a long way toward filling a big gap in Midtown.

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I knew those homes wouldn’t stand a chance haha. This is exciting! Keep filling up Midtown!!

I live right in that exact area and before never thought much of the property. However, every day as the new Phillips Murrah complex continues its progress, it becomes more apparent how much potential this plot has and the incredible impact a large residential complex would have on the entire midtown area.

Very exciting stuff :)

Application by Richard McKown (developer of Level, Mosiac, The Bower and The Grove housing development) to demolish all the structures on this block.

The turquoise house and the small apartment behind it are owned by MidtownR. The other house and abandoned apartments are owned by Corsair Caughron, which also owns the remainder of the property along with Jimmy's Egg and much of the block to the south of 8th.

I know it will be 4-5 levels of apartments with some retail. Should have more info soon.

Midtown is really starting to fill in.

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Is there any indication if someone will save the houses and move them somewhere else or just be torn down?

Is there any indication if someone will save the houses and move them somewhere else or just be torn down?

They will be demolished.

Both are in pretty rough shape.

Hopefully these are designed better than his other projects. I’m not a fan of his other complexes.

Hopefully these are designed better than his other projects. I’m not a fan of his other complexes.

MidtownR only works with Fitzsimmons, Richard McKown mostly works with AHMM, so I think I can guess how it's gonna look like.

This is fantastic news. Every time I go past this block on my way to Elemental I think to myself how remarkably underutilized it is given its stellar location (and now along a BRT stop, too). Eager to see what they have planned and should go a long way to making the area between Hudson/8th and the Phillips Murrah development much more cohesive.

Hopefully they can find away to utilize that beautiful old magnolia tree on the corner.....

Off topic, does anyone know how SSM never acquired that holdout in their parking lot?

Always a curiosity when I'm parking in that lot, there are cars with flat tires that are chained to the fence, just an odd place that occupies a different time/space dimension from that which is adjacent yet apparently it carries on...

^

I suspect they have tried but the owner just doesn't want to sell.

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2023/11/21/midtown-okc-new-apartments-proposed-elemental-coffee-demolish-halfway-house/71611937007/

..

Let’s hope that rendering is just that because that is an utter disappointment.

That won't even be close to the final product.

From the article:

McKown cautioned renderings of the development submitted to the city as part of the demolition application are conceptual, drawn by McKown to show his overall vision for the block. He said architectural renderings will be started should the project proceed.

Will the developers be forced to build around the 1982 Corvette Collector's Edition that has been under a tarp/sheet/blanket for a few decades now ? Cuz I don't think there's any way to separate that long standing monument for the earth which upon it sits.

Will the developers be forced to build around the 1982 Corvette Collector's Edition that has been under a tarp/sheet/blanket for a few decades now ? Cuz I don't think there's any way to separate that long standing monument for the earth which upon it sits.

I looked back on googlemaps to see how long it had actually been there and it was there in the June of 2014 street view, but not July of 2011. So it has been there for roughly ten years, but a new tarp was put on it sometime between May of 2018 and February of 2019.

I looked back on googlemaps to see how long it had actually been there and it was there in the June of 2014 street view, but not July of 2011. So it has been there for roughly ten years, but a new tarp was put on it sometime between May of 2018 and February of 2019.

Boy, we are easily entertained.

Boy, we are easily entertained.

But I do that kind of thing too. It’s like a modern day Where’s Waldo.

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This project is moving forward.

Tenants in the two remaining houses have been given notice to vacate.

Will take some time, but we should see some designs this summer.

Demolition has started on the long-vacant apartment complex. The two houses on this block are also to be razed.

We should see the final designs of this project soon.

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Did those apartments use to be a halfway house?

Did those apartments use to be a halfway house?

Yeah. What a change from a department of corrections facility to this.

Yeah, when I lived right down the street there were all types of characters hanging directly around that complex.

Boy, is Midtown changing... Almost all of it were single-house lots and almost all of those are long gone.

Those two homes are cool looking. I get why they are being razed, but imagine them being converted into bars and utilizing the area in between with nice mature trees as a large outdoor patio spot. Oldschool Rainey St vibe.

The developers have submitted a request to the new Classen Corridor TIF for this project in the amount of $10.8 million.


the Project which shall consist of 303 residential units, structured parking and retail space with amenities including a clubhouse, lush courtyards, swimming pool, fitness center, catering kitchen and outdoor grills at a total cost of over $81,000,000;

Richard McCown (Level, Mosaic) is the lead developer but I believe Midtown Rennaisance is involved as they own some of the property on this block. I've heard they are now investing in Midtown projects where they are not the lead or primary owner.

AHMM is the architect. Rendering (design is still slightly evolving) below is looking to the northeast, roughly the same direction as the first aerial below.

On that corner will be retail/restaurant space with some live/work units.

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Level 2.0

The design looks like it would be a better fit in Edmond or Yukon. Why is it always low rise buildings that don’t require an elevator? I’m growing weary of these sort of developments. Maybe we can pass an ordinance no height( no density)no tif. I know I’m not directly paying for this building but they always have a large footprint and a few of these places can enormously complicates parking

Hopefully the developer of the apartments that we’re supposed to be built
Across from Midtown Court will use tiffs get jump start that project.

Level 2.0

Gross.

I’m hoping this design evolves quite a bit. This is a Darwin Award currently.

The design looks like it would be a better fit in Edmond or Yukon. Why is it always low rise buildings that don’t require an elevator? I’m growing weary of these sort of developments. Maybe we can pass an ordinance no height( no density)no tif. I know I’m not directly paying for this building but they always have a large footprint and a few of these places can enormously complicates parking

The proverbial beginning of the end for a city, when the parking is complicated by residential. Fade me.

I would agree on the requirement for density = TIF. To many low-rise proposals, we need more midrise with structured (or no) parking.

I do like they they are incorporating streetfront retail. That should also be a MUST for all downtown multifamily/multi-storey proposals.

I do like they they are incorporating streetfront retail. That should also be a MUST for all downtown multifamily/multi-storey proposals.



big fan of empty retail space??

I read in the Oklahoman that they will have a 430 space parking structure. Richard McKown also said he doesn't want to compete with neighborhood retail.

big fan of empty retail space??

This clears a little bit of it up and I think it makes sense:

McKown said the development includes three 700-square-foot live-work units on the ground floor that will be designed as open studio spaces with a kitchen and full bathroom.

These seem to be pretty full at Wheeler so I am sure they are taking part of that playbook.

In Steve's article, this came up and I am not sure if I have seen it this way:

The SSLM request is structured as a “pay-in, pay-out” formula which would return 100% of property taxes paid on the property for the first five years. That percentage would drop to 85% in the sixth year, and then 75% for the seventh through 15th years.

Is that a normal TIF or is this structure new?

Obviously the main complaint about TIF is it takes away property taxes that could be used for schools, roads, etc. I know it takes it away completely for five years, but then it is declining. Again, not sure if this structure is new or now.

^

Pretty normal; the City used to provide money upfront and it often had to be borrowed. Once a brighter light shined on TIF, they changed to a tax rebate system.

Also, it should be noted that the description above should have mentioned 100%, 85%, 75% of the ad valorem *increment* not the total property taxes for those periods. It's the difference in the current baseline versus the substantial increases in tax that occur when you construct $80 million in improvements.

But keep in mind, this new TIF will be collecting increases in property tax across the entire Classen TIF District for 25 years, just like our other 20 TIF districts in OKC.

The design looks like it would be a better fit in Edmond or Yukon. Why is it always low rise buildings that don’t require an elevator? I’m growing weary of these sort of developments. Maybe we can pass an ordinance no height( no density)no tif. I know I’m not directly paying for this building but they always have a large footprint and a few of these places can enormously complicates parking

Anything over 4 stories requires elevators which are expensive, that's why we typically see multi family max out at 4 stories.

The design looks like it would be a better fit in Edmond or Yukon. Why is it always low rise buildings that don’t require an elevator? I’m growing weary of these sort of developments. Maybe we can pass an ordinance no height( no density)no tif. I know I’m not directly paying for this building but they always have a large footprint and a few of these places can enormously complicates parking

Some of McKowns other midtown apartments do look pretty cheap, but with AHMM designing these I would imagine these will be better. And there is a large parking garage just built north of this, and this will have its own parking garage. So there is ample parking. And no way this wont have elevators.



I do like they they are incorporating streetfront retail. That should also be a MUST for all downtown multifamily/multi-storey proposals.

See The Lift (10th and Shartel) to know why it shouldnt be a must. Making apartment developers become retail developers no matter the location, other retail nearby or ease of access is not good policy. That said, Walker and Hudson do provide a decent retail environment that could allow for a bit of street retail here but the city forcing it doesnt mean you automatically get awesome shops, boutiques and restaurants. It could end up being perpetually vacant space or constant turnover of marginal retail businesses.

See The Lift (10th and Shartel) to know why it shouldnt be a must. Making apartment developers become retail developers no matter the location, other retail nearby or ease of access is not good policy. That said, Walker and Hudson do provide a decent retail environment that could allow for a bit of street retail here but the city forcing it doesnt mean you automatically get awesome shops, boutiques and restaurants. It could end up being perpetually vacant space or constant turnover of marginal retail businesses.I am amazed that after all these years, there has been NOTHING occupy those retail spaces at The Lift. Maybe they are not set up for the restaurant trade, but how about a pizza/cookie/sandwich shop, a coffee bar, or even a regular bar?!

Amazing, and such a loss of cash flow.

I am amazed that after all these years, there has been NOTHING occupy those retail spaces at The Life. Maybe they are not set up for the restaurant trade, but how about a pizza/cookie/sandwich shop, a coffee bar, or even a regular bar?!

Amazing, and such a loss of cash flow.

They didn't think about parking that's why that spot will never be occupied.

I am amazed that after all these years, there has been NOTHING occupy those retail spaces at The Life. Maybe they are not set up for the restaurant trade, but how about a pizza/cookie/sandwich shop, a coffee bar, or even a regular bar?!

Amazing, and such a loss of cash flow.

They have approached about everyone in OKC about that space, so it's not like they aren't trying.

The Edge has had a terrible problem as well and Devon has scores of completely empty street-level properties.

Some of McKowns other midtown apartments do look pretty cheap, but with AHMM designing these I would imagine these will be better. And there is a large parking garage just built north of this, and this will have its own parking garage. So there is ample parking. And no way this wont have elevators.

See The Lift (10th and Shartel) to know why it shouldnt be a must. Making apartment developers become retail developers no matter the location, other retail nearby or ease of access is not good policy. That said, Walker and Hudson do provide a decent retail environment that could allow for a bit of street retail here but the city forcing it doesnt mean you automatically get awesome shops, boutiques and restaurants. It could end up being perpetually vacant space or constant turnover of marginal retail businesses.

As far as lift goes there’s a big difference between 10th and shartel and 10th and Hudson (I know you mentioned it, just reiterating).

I tend to think space that can serve as retail is a must on major corridors even if that means it doesn’t fill up for awhile. It’s a lot easier to convert those to another use down the road if necessary than it is to convert residential to retail/commercial.

On a related note, the retail at the edge just seems like poor execution. A bunch of people here commented initially about how shallow those spaces are and I think that’s made that space more difficult to lease/use. That’s a pretty highly trafficked retail corridor as far as OKC goes.

^

Pretty normal; the City used to provide money upfront and it often had to be borrowed. Once a brighter light shined on TIF, they changed to a tax rebate system.

Also, it should be noted that the description above should have mentioned 100%, 85%, 75% of the ad valorem *increment* not the total property taxes for those periods. It's the difference in the current baseline versus the substantial increases in tax that occur when you construct $80 million in improvements.

But keep in mind, this new TIF will be collecting increases in property tax across the entire Classen TIF District for 25 years, just like our other 20 TIF districts in OKC.

So, if the property value is currently $100,000 and it increases to $1,000,000, it would be the percentage of that $900,000? Making sure I understand.

So, if the property value is currently $100,000 and it increases to $1,000,000, it would be the percentage of that $900,000? Making sure I understand.

Yes, and they only get the $10.8 million; it stops once they hit that amount.

They have approached about everyone in OKC about that space, so it's not like they aren't trying.

The Edge has had a terrible problem as well and Devon has scores of completely empty street-level properties.

I guess if they list it for $10/sqft, there will be some movement, like a coffee shop, boba shop, sandwich shop, or bakery opening up.

Anything over 4 stories requires elevators which are expensive, that's why we typically see multi family max out at 4 stories.

OKC's currently-adopted building code requires an elevator for anything over 3 occupied floors. This is the case across 99% of the Country. It is possible to create a 4-story building by creating 2-story units as part of the project (typically on the ground floor or top floors), but I don't think that is what is happening here. What is likely driving 4 stories vs 5 stories is the ability to use Type V construction typology (less expensive) versus Type III, not the avoidance of elevators. Elevators are certainly very expensive, but one can amortize 3-4 elevators across 400 units without too much pain.

Is there info out there that suggest these are walkups? The fact that the Oklahoman article states that they are targeting rents in the $2.15-$2.40/sf range (necessary based on today's interest rates and construction costs for ground up builds) suggests that this building almost certainly will have elevators just like all of the other 4-5 story apartments downtown.

They have approached about everyone in OKC about that space, so it's not like they aren't trying.

The Edge has had a terrible problem as well and Devon has scores of completely empty street-level properties.

Has Devon marketed or attempted to rent the retail? I was under the impression they put it in to appease the city but didn't have any intention of renting it out

Has Devon marketed or attempted to rent the retail? I was under the impression they put it in to appease the city but didn't have any intention of renting it out

the windows box place holders on the original parking garage along hudson they never had any want to build out or rent .. .. ( that retail space doesn't actually exist on the back side of those window boxes are parking spaces)

they have and are actively trying to lease the retail space in both of the BOK garages .. and have had some of that space full occasionally

I think the inner metro has a retail vacancy disaster for a number of reasons, but that probably deserves it's own thread so this property doesn't get lumped into it.

Has Devon marketed or attempted to rent the retail? I was under the impression they put it in to appease the city but didn't have any intention of renting it out
Not having demand may have some influence on not having intention.

I wonder why it's so hard for OKC. Other cities have success with streetfront retial in and near their downtowns, especially peer major cities and even numerous smaller ones. I supposed the smaller cities could be justified in not having much competition, but what makes other large major cities successful but not in OKC?

THAT should become an objective of the Chamber - how to densify the inner core. We have the population, no? There's rising real estate value in/near downtown, no?

Is it just that OKC isn't a walkable city? Can we change that?

To answer the earlier question, no I am not advocating vacant retail space but am trying to vision into the future where OKC is even more dense and even more densely populated in the inner core. If we are building, buildings to be permanent - it would be not be prudent to build retail on the bottom floors now even if it takes time to absorb. Again, other major cities do this; not sure why OKC is or even wants a pass. ..

The justification I usually hear for continuing to sprawl is "land is cheap here" and there is so much open land available. Of course that completely ignores the infrastructure costs and extension of police and fire services to an even larger area without a commensurate increase in tax revenue to support that infrastucture. The obviously most efficient and cost effective way to develop and grow if to fully build out the core of they city where all the necessary services already exist. It is the growth ponzi scheme trap so many municipalities have become ensnared in and is difficult to escape.

I have always understood that the landowners downtown hire commercial real estate companies that set the rent based on the rent of peer cities. But when a store open they do not see the customer base to equivalent to the asking rent. So the retail spots downtown remain empty.

The owners need to lower rent and the city need to make it easier to bring some interest to the downtown city streets.

I have always understood that the landowners downtown hire commercial real estate companies that set the rent based on the rent of peer cities. But when a store open they do not see the customer base to equivalent to the asking rent. So the retail spots downtown remain empty.

The owners need to lower rent and the city need to make it easier to bring some interest to the downtown city streets.
It isn't some game at setting rents… there is real cost in building space and to render 20-25% of your property non income producing is very hard to get financed.

There is also the negative effect of having the most visible space in your building being dead. That does nothing to make your building space above more desirable. Who wants to live in a building tht looks dead when you walk up to it?

Some slides from the presentation to the Economic Development Trust:

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$2-$2.25/sf in midtown is great pricing. Obviously the TIF helps with that. The Spaniard, right around the corner, is leasing in the high $2/sf but has garages and things like that. Exciting to see a lot more foot traffic in the area in the coming years.

Hopefully they will change the color scheme, because that is horrid.