I am the one that did the design for the Turnpike in this location and that tunnel shown in the picture is a vehicular crossing under the Turnpike to connect both sides of the development. This was requested by the property owners as part of the negotiation for that parcel. As far as the widening for Sara Road, there was also an engineering firm that has completed those plans.

I may be misunderstanding the situation, but Sara Rd. is already being widened between 15th and 29th, I believe. I forget exactly where because it has been a minute since I was over there but I do recall seeing them working on it. I have not seen any work being done on 15th yet.

I hope this amphitheater happens and I hope it kickstarts more development at MCC. I moved here nearly two years ago and all they've done in that time is build the Starbucks. I assume there's a lot of interest in this site, particularly from retail and food service companies, but they may be waiting to see if this amphitheater happens before they pull the trigger.

I may be misunderstanding the situation, but Sara Rd. is already being widened between 15th and 29th, I believe. I forget exactly where because it has been a minute since I was over there but I do recall seeing them working on it. I have not seen any work being done on 15th yet.

Yeah, the widening of Sara Rd actually goes much further than 29th. I think down to 59th Street.

I don't think this will ever happen. A costco will happen before this.

Yeah, the widening of Sara Rd actually goes much further than 29th. I think down to 59th Street.

Sara Road is(has) being widened all the way to SH 152 (SW 74th). Mustang just finished their one mile portion of the project. Only took them 6 years!

Sara Road is(has) being widened all the way to SH 152 (SW 74th). Mustang just finished their one mile portion of the project. Only took them 6 years!
Felt like more, tbh.

Yeah, the widening of Sara Rd actually goes much further than 29th. I think down to 59th Street.

It goes all the way to Hwy 152 in Mustang.

Broken Arrow to be site of $93M amphitheater project
By: Jeff Elkins//The Journal Record//October 4, 2023//

A Colorado Springs-based hospitality company continues its expansion with a second Oklahoma music venue planned for the largest suburb in the Tulsa metro.

Notes Live announced Wednesday it will build its next amphitheater in Broken Arrow. The company expects the 12,500-capacity, state-of-the-art amphitheater to transform the area’s nightlife and music scene.

The venue, named the Sunset Amphitheatre until a naming rights deal is completed, will be located on a large lot north of Broken Arrow Events Park, just east of the Creek Turnpike.

It’s modeled after the company’s food and music center in Colorado Springs and will feature luxury fire pit suites available for one-time purchase, traditionally reserved seating in the upper and lower bowls, a landscaped grass berm and custom-built owners club suites.

The $93 million project is a public-private partnership between Notes Live and the city of Broken Arrow. It’s the next venue in Notes Live founder J.W. Roth’s effort to invest $1 billion, expanding to 10 markets with close to 1 million people, which also includes Oklahoma City. The Tulsa metro area has 1,033,157 residents, according to recent census data.

Roth said Broken Arrow is a place that has everything except for a venue to attract national acts to play music outdoors.

“We can’t wait to really dig in, working with the city and its residents to create the region’s most vibrant, world-class entertainment experience at our upcoming outdoor amphitheater,” Roth said in a statement.

City leaders also expressed excitement Wednesday. Broken Arrow Mayor Debra Wimpee called Events Park the perfect location for an amphitheater, which coincidentally was included in its master plan.

“The park is equipped with an abundance of land and opportunity while having a successful record of accommodating many different types of events and activities in the past,” Wimpee said in a statement. “I look forward to the day when Events Park is a shared home for amazing concerts on one end and community events and celebrations on the other side.”

Broken Arrow City Manager Michael Spurgeon said municipalities should strive to bring options for passive and recreational activity to their communities, and this is an example of an effort to bring not only entertainment, but also considerable economic development to the area.

According to a release, the Sunset development will support more than 630 direct and indirect jobs and generate an annual economic impact that exceeds $211 million. The Sunset Amphitheatre’s construction is projected to begin in 2024, and Notes Live looks to open the outdoor venue in summer 2025.

“There is much work to do, including providing the public infrastructure – roads, parking, water, etc. – and the construction of the venue itself, before our community can revel in the amazing atmosphere the amphitheater will eventually afford its guests,” Spurgeon said.

City of Broken Arrow press release:

**************

Council approves amphitheater agreement
Post Date:10/03/2023 8:13 p.m.

The Broken Arrow City Council authorized an economic development agreement between the City of Broken Arrow and Sunset at Broken Arrow, LLC, to bring a large-scale outdoor entertainment venue to the city’s southeast side.

The agreement was approved during the Council’s public meeting on Oct. 3.

The public/private partnership includes a 12,500-seat capacity outdoor amphitheater for live, major musical acts on 13 acres near Events Park.

“Live music venues have long been a desire of Broken Arrow citizens, and this public/private partnership to bring a world-class entertainment complex to Events Park, will generate experiences that become life-long memories for residents and visitors of BA,” said Broken Arrow Mayor Debra Wimpee.

Sunset at Broken Arrow, LLC is a subsidiary of Notes Live, one of the fastest-growing entertainment and hospitality companies in the United States. Sunset has committed a $70 million capital investment on the entertainment complex and a minimum of 45 scheduled events that are projected to generate nearly $4 million in city sales tax and $934,000 in ad valorem tax revenues annually. The estimated annual economic impact is $211 million.

The City of Broken Arrow has agreed to perform approximately $20 million in public infrastructure improvements at Events Park including:

A new on-site parking lot with a minimum of 2,360 parking spaces (the city is working with NSU-BA on a lease agreement for an additional 1,000 parking spots)
Stormwater detention facilities improvements
Road improvements within Events Park
Road improvements to connect access to State Highway 51 to provide more entry and exit points at Events Park
Road improvements on New Orleans Street (101st Street)
Waterline improvements serving the amphitheater
Engineering firm Kimley Horn has been retained to begin the design work of the public infrastructure improvements.

The City is working on the creation of a sales tax only Tax Increment Finance (TIF) District to fund its share of the project.

City leaders are negotiating the purchase of an adjacent 41 acres of private property north of Events Park for the proposed location of the amphitheater. At least 13 acres are expected to be sold to Sunset.

“Sunset’s intention to build a state-of-the-art amphitheater in Broken Arrow to bring live entertainment for citizens and visitors, proves yet again, our city is an environment that supports private investment,” said Broken Arrow City Manager Michael Spurgeon.

The construction of the amphitheater will likely begin in 2024 and is projected to be completed by Dec. 31, 2025. It is expected to provide Broken Arrow with a significant attraction that will expand employment, enhance the tax base, and attract major investment. According to the agreement, the complex will provide approximately 80 to 90 full-time positions, an additional 150 indirect jobs, and generate approximately $85 million in annual sales.

“This public/private partnership is the latest example of Broken Arrow’s commitment to seek out and attract economic development opportunities that enhance BA’s profile as the best community in Oklahoma to live, work, and play,” Spurgeon said. “There is a lot of work to do, including providing the public infrastructure – roads, parking, water, etc. – and the construction of the venue itself, before our community benefits from the amphitheater opening to the public sometime in 2026.”

I just hope the OKC one gets built first! Get it established as a venue before undercutting it with one 100 miles away.

Well, they are both going to be managed by the same company (if either/both of them actually get built), so ultimately I'd expect that it will come down to which location can get better attendance figures. This might actually be better for OKC given that both amphitheaters are now going to be in a nondescript location right off of a turnpike, whereas the original Tulsa location was objectively better than the OKC location, IMO.

Notes Live CEO says they'll be able to drop the temperature in the amphitheater by 20 degrees.
He addressed concerns about traffic and road conditions.
OKC and OTA is working on improving the area...

https://okcfox.com/news/fox-25-investigates/amphitheater-ambition-oklahomas-outdoor-oasis-or-added-obstruction-notes-live-mustang-traffic-concerns-tonight-at-nine-fox-25-jw-roth-

They want to build an underpass connecting both sides of the development here.

An article in the oklahoman today about this. Things I noticed:

"Each buyer (investor) is provided a prospectus with detailed contract terms, and one was provided to The Oklahoman. The prospectus shows firepit buyers not only own the firepit seating suites, but also will get $7 for each ticket sold for shows at the amphitheater. Depending on investment level and ticket use, buyers are told they can expect a targeted return of up to 19%."

"Oklahoma City officials confirmed they already had plans funded to widen SW 15 at the Kilpatrick Turnpike, which is needed to accommodate traffic generated by the amphitheater. Roth said “ample parking” for 12,000 music fans has been secured with developers of the adjoining Mustang Creek Crossing shopping center."

"Roth said the Notes Live amphitheaters also are being spaced out to ensure they support concert tours without cannibalizing each market. “Let’s say Van Morrison is playing Broken Arrow,” Roth said. “Two days later Van Morrison is playing Oklahoma City. And two days after that he is playing at my amphitheater in the DFW metroplex. Fifty percent of the way between Broken Arrow and Oklahoma City is my market.”

"Easy access was another issue, and the location chosen in Oklahoma City is along an abandoned stretch of the Kilpatric Turnpike that is in close proximity to the toll road and Interstate 40. The site was chosen, Worth said, because the amphitheater can be designed to keep noise directed to the highway and at a volume no greater than what is produced by passing traffic. He said sound studies are being done by New York City-based LSTN Consultants. "

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2023/11/06/notes-live-amphitheater-okc-construction-begins-2024-suites-for-sale/70833377007/

Every single firepit owner will get $7 from every single ticket sold? Seems unsustainable to me, or else the wording is off and that's not what they mean...

Every single firepit owner will get $7 from every single ticket sold? Seems unsustainable to me, or else the wording is off and that's not what they mean...

Yeah, if every firepit owner got $7 per ticket and it seats 12,000, that would be $84,000 per concert. If the memberships/suites are from $125,000 to $650,000 (which is what the ownership states), the lower area would pay off in two shows... Something has to be off here or I don't understand it.

^^^^^^
I suspect that the actual deal is that they get $7 from every ticket sold in their suite. Meaning if they decline to buy the tickets for their suite on any given show, they'll get $7 of the proceeds per ticket when the venue sells their suite. And, depending on what the suiteholder deal is for shows - they probably still have to buy tickets, at the very least maybe after they hit a base number of shows in their own suite - they would get a $7/ticket discount on face.

^^^^^^
I suspect that the actual deal is that they get $7 from every ticket sold in their suite. Meaning if they decline to buy the tickets for their suite on any given show, they'll get $7 of the proceeds per ticket when the venue sells their suite. And, depending on what the suiteholder deal is for shows - they probably still have to buy tickets, at the very least maybe after they hit a base number of shows in their own suite - they would get a $7/ticket discount on face.

Yeah, I didn't read it that way at all... If that is the deal, that makes a lot more sense.

^^^^^^^
Yeah, total supposition on my part but would make sense. Clearly something was lost in translation.

An article in the oklahoman today about this. Things I noticed:

"Each buyer (investor) is provided a prospectus with detailed contract terms, and one was provided to The Oklahoman. The prospectus shows firepit buyers not only own the firepit seating suites, but also will get $7 for each ticket sold for shows at the amphitheater. Depending on investment level and ticket use, buyers are told they can expect a targeted return of up to 19%."

"Oklahoma City officials confirmed they already had plans funded to widen SW 15 at the Kilpatrick Turnpike, which is needed to accommodate traffic generated by the amphitheater. Roth said “ample parking” for 12,000 music fans has been secured with developers of the adjoining Mustang Creek Crossing shopping center."

"Roth said the Notes Live amphitheaters also are being spaced out to ensure they support concert tours without cannibalizing each market. “Let’s say Van Morrison is playing Broken Arrow,” Roth said. “Two days later Van Morrison is playing Oklahoma City. And two days after that he is playing at my amphitheater in the DFW metroplex. Fifty percent of the way between Broken Arrow and Oklahoma City is my market.”

"Easy access was another issue, and the location chosen in Oklahoma City is along an abandoned stretch of the Kilpatric Turnpike that is in close proximity to the toll road and Interstate 40. The site was chosen, Worth said, because the amphitheater can be designed to keep noise directed to the highway and at a volume no greater than what is produced by passing traffic. He said sound studies are being done by New York City-based LSTN Consultants. "

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2023/11/06/notes-live-amphitheater-okc-construction-begins-2024-suites-for-sale/70833377007/

Complete infomercial in regards to a company that has bought at least 20 full-page ads in the Oklahoman and is still very much trying to find investors.

Just printing what this guy wants out there. No research, context, or fact-checking. Super irresponsible and plenty of con men have played Lackmeyer in a similar way while defrauding people in the process. Not saying this project or person are frauds, but the whole thing is very strange.

In the splashy front-page article in the print version that was delivered this morning, the writer incorrectly called the CEO "Worth" rather than "Roth" 14 different times. Was posted online with the same glaring error before being corrected.

Also, a little bit of digging reveals Roth declared bankruptcy (2001) as have two of his companies.

^^^^^^^
Yeah, total supposition on my part but would make sense. Clearly something was lost in translation.

Yep, your explanation makes sense, and I was kind of thinking along those lines, but didn't have the time to do much more thinking about it, thx...

Am I still the only one that thinks the design is terrible? Aside from all the red flags about the developers, I am still questioning the basic economic logic behind this development. What bands are they bringing in? If it's going to be mostly country/gospel/christian etc I can kind of get it, but for most rock shows this ampitheatre setup would suck. Too much open space dedicated to the "fireplace pits". Most of the crowd is set back way far away from the stage. It would create a weird vibe for everything that isn't low-energy music to begin with. Seems like they are going to compete with the Casino circuit more than anything...

Will those acts really sell 12,000 tickets? Will lots of people want to shell out for the pits/drink and food service/etc. to make this place work? I'm just scratching my head to think of WHO would be coming so many times a year that would fit this venue. A lot of the major acts would rather play at Paycom if it's available. Not many acts are big enough for this venue yet low energy enough for the ambiance they are going for.

Admittedly, I don't go to many shows at amphitheaters, but I do go to a lot of shows and festivals and I don't see this seating arrangement being appealing for any band I would want to see.

Comparing to the Walmart Amp, they have an area of seating near the front that is more high end/exclusive, but beyond that the tiers aren't as overtly obvious. Most other famous ampitheatre venues don't have major sections broken up like this one. Maybe Hollywood Bowl in LA, but it's a bit different and they don't have a ton of high energy concerts there from what I've seen - mostly singers and orchestra.

Am I still the only one that thinks the design is terrible? Aside from all the red flags about the developers, I am still questioning the basic economic logic behind this development. What bands are they bringing in? If it's going to be mostly country/gospel/christian etc I can kind of get it, but for most rock shows this ampitheatre setup would suck. Too much open space dedicated to the "fireplace pits". Most of the crowd is set back way far away from the stage. It would create a weird vibe for everything that isn't low-energy music to begin with. Seems like they are going to compete with the Casino circuit more than anything...

Will those acts really sell 12,000 tickets? Will lots of people want to shell out for the pits/drink and food service/etc. to make this place work? I'm just scratching my head to think of WHO would be coming so many times a year that would fit this venue. A lot of the major acts would rather play at Paycom if it's available. Not many acts are big enough for this venue yet low energy enough for the ambiance they are going for.

Admittedly, I don't go to many shows at amphitheaters, but I do go to a lot of shows and festivals and I don't see this seating arrangement being appealing for any band I would want to see.

Comparing to the Walmart Amp, they have an area of seating near the front that is more high end/exclusive, but beyond that the tiers aren't as overtly obvious. Most other famous ampitheatre venues don't have major sections broken up like this one. Maybe Hollywood Bowl in LA, but it's a bit different and they don't have a ton of high energy concerts there from what I've seen - mostly singers and orchestra.

Are you new? Look at all the rock shows thst go to amphitheater over the summer. Dozens of large traveling rock festivals and tours go every year.

And yes, they will. OKC gets passed over by bands and tours in the 10-12k range that go to amphitheaters, because we have the Zoo Amp at 7k.

I mean, seriously, just look at the acts who play at Walmart Amp. All genres, not just country or gospel. At least look and see what these amphitheaters provide, show-wise.

Not bashing you, but you bashed this based off amphitheaters not getting an eclectic mix of shows, when thst is, at its core, factually incorrect.

I don't think OKC gets passed over due to not having a venue that seats 12,000 for a concert.

Many/most at Paycom are that size; unless they sell tickets behind the stage, which is rare.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/paycom110623b.jpg

Are you new? Look at all the rock shows thst go to amphitheater over the summer. Dozens of large traveling rock festivals and tours go every year.

And yes, they will. OKC gets passed over by bands and tours in the 10-12k range that go to amphitheaters, because we have the Zoo Amp at 7k.

I mean, seriously, just look at the acts who play at Walmart Amp. All genres, not just country or gospel. At least look and see what these amphitheaters provide, show-wise.

Not bashing you, but you bashed this based off amphitheaters not getting an eclectic mix of shows, when thst is, at its core, factually incorrect.

I don't think you understood what I was getting at, at all. It's not the amphitheater being an amphitheater that is the problem, it's the weird segmentation in its specific design. I compared the Walmart Amp because it doesn't have a design that very similar. The Zoo Amp is another example of an amphitheater that doesn't have this design or reliance on food/drink service to the pits. The Zoo amp does well, but it's a completely different economic logic that doesn't rely on the investment in these fireplace pits.

Both the Zoo and Walmart Amp get good mixes of music, but they are more or less open amphitheaters where the vibe could work with anything. Would you want to go see a punk rock show at a place where you had to sit way back and look out over the high rollers in their fancy pits?

^

The better question is: Why would someone prefer to sit out in completely uncovered elements with a large number of seats very far away from the stage and vastly inferior acoustics vs. Paycom?

Apart from California, most newish amphitheaters have a good portion of the seats covered both to protect from the elements and provide much better acoustics. What happens if it's raining or blistering hot or freezing cold or the typical Oklahoma wind is blowing the sound around or nearly away? Acts and their booking agents care very much about these things as they obviously want to sell as many tickets as possible.

The $1 billion+ new arena will be even better in about 5-6 years.

This place and Paycom will have a similar capacity and if you want a suite experience, you can get a real suite at Paycom. Not exactly sure what need this facility will be filling, other than a money grab by the developers.

One more big thing no one has mentioned: this amphitheater is very flat.

Most are built into large hillsides to provide slope and better sight lines, bring the audience closer to the stage, and aid acoustics by helping to trap the sound. Or, they are built in a stadium-type structure to provide all these things.

You can see from the rendering that there isn't much grade change anywhere on this project. Not a huge deal in a smaller venue but at this scale a lot of the seats will be very far from the stage.

It reminds me of the Shoreline Amphitheater in the Bay Area. I saw the B-52s there and we were out on the grass which was very far away and we spent the whole night watching the video screens. It completely sucked, even in the gorgeous California weather.

One more big thing no one has mentioned: this amphitheater is very flat.

Most are built into large hillsides to provide slope and better sight lines, bring the audience closer to the stage, and aid acoustics by helping to trap the sound. Or, they are built in a stadium-type structure to provide all these things.

You can see from the rendering that there isn't much grade change anywhere on this project. Not a huge deal in a smaller venue but at this scale a lot of the seats will be very far from the stage.

It reminds me of the Shoreline Amphitheater in the Bay Area. I saw the B-52s there and we were out on the grass which was very far away and we spent the whole night watching the video screens. It completely sucked, even in the gorgeous California weather.

The rendering you posted on the first post of this thread make it seem like a normal amphitheater with the stage lower than the audience. Unless I am missing an updated rendering somewhere.


They are trying to raise investment funds for this site but also Tulsa and a bunch of others around the country:

https://noteslive.vip/properties/okcsunset/



HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/notes1.jpg

The rendering you posted on the first post of this thread make it seem like a normal amphitheater with the stage lower than the audience. Unless I am missing an updated rendering somewhere.

Indeed. I’ve seen some early stage civil plans and there will be a tremendous amount of dirtwork there. The stage will be well ‘below ground level’ so to speak.

It doesn't seem the renderings begin to show the reality of building on that particular site and the images have to be distorted.

Look at these two renderings. The stage (which is supposed to be much lower) is above the trucks and then the road and everything behind it is a the current grade (everything around there is very flat).

And then the rear – which should be much higher – has oceans of parking at the same level of the back of the seating, save maybe a few feet. You can't see any sort of raised plateau by the buildings in the distance on the same grade.

So the actual grade change from the stage to the last seats has to be quite small.

The grade change number comes from comparing the floor level at Paycom to the highest seats, which is a little over 100' (130' from floor to roof). So if the Sunset grade change is significantly less -- and it would very much have to be -- that means the back of this facility would be way farther away from the stage.

I think these renderings are strongly distorted (remember, they've used them for proposed projects in other cities) to make the facility look far more compact than simple math would allow.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/sunset110623c.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/sunset110623d.jpg

I mean, I get that most on here are basically counting this project dwad before it starts, and think everything about it is low-brow, dirty, and feels wrong, but someone said they have seen civil plans already, and they show plenty of elevation change.

I am not bashing you at all, or anyone on here. Just seems the site wants this to fail, and has basically ruled it out before it has a chance. Another amphitheater is already being built by this company, so that lends some credence to their words.

It could fail completely, sure. But I truly think this has the potential to be a game-changer for, so I am hoping it succeeds.

I'm just pointing out these renderings have to be strongly distorted.

It may get built but that section with more than half of the seats is going to be very far from the stage.

There is simply no way to create enough slope on a flat property to bring that number of seats anywhere near the stage, especially with two very large areas of low-density seats mixed in.


If there are civil plans, post them then we'll know for sure. But I would absolutely not trust pretty renderings that are being used to solicit investors.

Not at all saying this project won't happen and I haven't seen anyone say this is "low-brow". Just trying to look past the marketing hype and a couple of pretty pictures.

I can believe this development will happen, and that it can be successful. What is hard to believe is the renderings, like Pete said.

You have to admit that this company has gone about all of this in a completely suspicious way. You can't just wave off all the red flags by being optimistic.

I mean, one of the people involved in the project is straight up lying on facebook trying to rustle up some investors and ODOT had to issue a statement shooting their claims down. After stuff like that, everything is subject to question in regards to this development. I can be hopeful, but I'm damn sure not going to invest or even expect much from this group.

I will agree the Hefner stuff is frustrating. I'll grant you that part.

I can believe this development will happen, and that it can be successful. What is hard to believe is the renderings, like Pete said.

You have to admit that this company has gone about all of this in a completely suspicious way. You can't just wave off all the red flags by being optimistic.

I mean, one of the people involved in the project is straight up lying on facebook trying to rustle up some investors and ODOT had to issue a statement shooting their claims down. After stuff like that, everything is subject to question in regards to this development. I can be hopeful, but I'm damn sure not going to invest or even expect much from this group.

The fact this same group is trying to build about 10 more of these facilities before they have even opened one is very concerning.

I'm not at all saying those involved are dishonest but when you are taking money from thousands of people across many huge construction projects which are notorious for going way over budget, it's incredibly risky. And the CEO has declared bankruptcy in the past as have at least two of his companies.

Plus there is simply no way those renderings are close to reality for all the reasons I've mentioned.

Personally, l wish they would locate a piece of suitable property closer to the N l-35 zone where there ARE hills and trees to provide a more picturesque location. Thats part of what makes the zoo amp. a memorable place.

202 suites, $7 per owner sounds very sustainable to me. Not sure why the negativity on here. I mean, they’re not even seeking TIF for once and people still complaining. Jeez

As with many things, it just seems it could have been proposed for a better location - especially seeing the riverside proposal for Tulsa and the site in Colorado Springs.

As with many things, it just seems it could have been proposed for a better location - especially seeing the riverside proposal for Tulsa and the site in Colorado Springs.

The riverside proposal for Tulsa got scrapped for Broken Arrow.

202 suites, $7 per owner sounds very sustainable to me. Not sure why the negativity on here. I mean, they’re not even seeking TIF for once and people still complaining. Jeez

Q. How would anyone know if there was a big fraud happening in OKC?

A. You wouldn't.


That's because of this twisted local mentality that everyone has to be positive about everything, even when they know something very bad is happening. Lots of examples, such as the craziness at Chesapeake (outted by national media), TEEMCO, Farmer's Bank, Relax Park and several others. In all cases, tons of people knew exactly what was going on (I personally interviewed a bunch for all of these situations) but said nothing and the end result was that a lot of people were defrauded. OKC has a serious case of Emporer's New Clothes. Behind the scenes and in private conversations most people with any exposure know what exactly is going on and say nothing.

It's healthy to ask questions, discuss things that seem contrary to common sense, and have skepticism. In fact, the first job of any real journalist is to do their own research and ask informed and direct questions. That simply does not happen in this market and instead, you get the Oklahoman and everyone else doing these ridiculous puff pieces, as they did for all the scandals I mentioned.

Strawberry Fields fits in this category as well. It's very odd, they have proposed many things and done nothing, and then lo and behold they get sued by the majority of their investors. If it wasn't for research and discussion on OKCTalk, all you'd have are ridiculous PR pieces by the Oklahoman. Absolutely everyone wants SF to succeed, but at the same time, it's healthy to ask questions and do research (such as delinquent property taxes and missed City-mandated development deadlines).


Nobody is bashing anyone unfairly. There are merely a lot of good questions around this development and plenty of red flags. We are merely discussing them in a pretty respectful way, and it seems to me that people want this venue to be successful.

Q. How would anyone know if there was a big fraud happening in OKC?

A. You wouldn't.


That's because of this twisted local mentality that everyone has to be positive about everything, even when they know something very bad is happening. Lots of examples, such as the craziness at Chesapeake (outted by national media), TEEMCO, Farmer's Bank, Relax Park and several others. In all cases, tons of people knew exactly what was going on (I personally interviewed a bunch for all of these situations) but said nothing and the end result was that a lot of people were defrauded. OKC has a serious case of Emporer's New Clothes. Behind the scenes and in private conversations most people with any exposure know what exactly is going on and say nothing.

It's healthy to ask questions, discuss things that seem contrary to common sense, and have skepticism. In fact, the first job of any real journalist is to do their own research and ask informed and direct questions. That simply does not happen in this market and instead, you get the Oklahoman and everyone else doing these ridiculous puff pieces, as they did for all the scandals I mentioned.

Strawberry Fields fits in this category as well. It's very odd, they have proposed many things and done nothing, and then lo and behold they get sued by the majority of their investors. If it wasn't for research and discussion on OKCTalk, all you'd have are ridiculous PR pieces by the Oklahoman.


Nobody is bashing anyone unfairly. There are merely a lot of good questions around this development and plenty of red flags. We are merely discussing them in a pretty respectful way, and it seems to me that people want this venue to be successful.

Is it possible for you to have someone do direct interviews with the parties and provide direct information to us? Seems like that would be a great way to address lack of true information in real time. Real news in real time.

Is it possible for you to have someone do direct interviews with the parties and provide direct information to us? Seems like that would be a great way to address lack of true information in real time. Real news in real time.

I report when I feel like I have hard information. I've done so with every topic I mentioned, often over the course of an extended period.

And at other times, I point things out that look unusual (like delinquent property taxes, previous bankruptcies, progress of lawsuits) that lead up to the fuller, bigger story.


Most people I interview in regard to any of this do not want to be named.

Not sure what else I can do.

Pete, Im not discounting OKC Talk or the wonderful work tthat you and your team do in serving as the best investigative jounalistic source in the OKC Metropolitan Region. There's no doubt you provide the best coverage and don't just fall for the PR antics.

I was only pointing out that most on here don't seem to want to give this one a chance. Many of the things we complain about (use of TIF, for example) aren't being implemented here yet people are still complaining. While I can agree that the lcoation could be better - the developer appears to have his ducks in a row and his primary funding model may or may not be successful - but why all of the skepticism? Why not let the market dictate.

If he starts in January, will it negatively impact OKC? There's no TIF, there's work the city was going to do anyway and this development might accelerate that (ala how the Olympics might for other OKC projects). Again, I'm not saying anything against you Pete or OKC Talk, just that it appears to be a theme on here where people complain endlessly over and over about projects yet we have one here that isn't asking for assistance that should be given a chance in my opinion.

^

There have been about 10 different issues that have been raised about this development, all documented upthread, hence the skepticism.

It's not 'complaining', it's a healthy discussion especially when the developer is actively seeking investors in the local newspaper.

It doesn't seem the renderings begin to show the reality of building on that particular site and the images have to be distorted.

Look at these two renderings. The stage (which is supposed to be much lower) is above the trucks and then the road and everything behind it is a the current grade (everything around there is very flat).

And then the rear – which should be much higher – has oceans of parking at the same level of the back of the seating, save maybe a few feet. You can't see any sort of raised plateau by the buildings in the distance on the same grade.

So the actual grade change from the stage to the last seats has to be quite small.

The grade change number comes from comparing the floor level at Paycom to the highest seats, which is a little over 100' (130' from floor to roof). So if the Sunset grade change is significantly less -- and it would very much have to be -- that means the back of this facility would be way farther away from the stage.

I think these renderings are strongly distorted (remember, they've used them for proposed projects in other cities) to make the facility look far more compact than simple math would allow.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/sunset110623c.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/sunset110623d.jpg

I don't think that's what these renderings show. Visual cues suggest that the highest elevation shown here is along the back row of seating (private suites?). The amphitheater seating area slopes downward from the high point down to the stage - but crucially, the parking lot also slopes downward away from the high point in the opposite direction (albiet at a more gentle angle). You can see the retaining walls on the side of the facility showing this slope. The other parking lots shown in the rendering are at true ground level.

I think the elevation change isn't as obvious as it would otherwise be due to the viewing angle in both of these renderings.

^

The grade change as shown or anything remotely close to it is completely impossible on the proposed site.

The rear of the seating and stage (and everything beyond both areas) are at ground level on a completely flat property. So how is the seating sloped?

^

The grade change as shown or anything remotely close to it is completely impossible on the proposed site.

The rear of the seating and stage (and everything beyond both areas) are at ground level on a completely flat property.[...]

Please forgive the crude drawing, but hopefully this helps to illustrate what I'm talking about. I'm making assumptions here because I'm only a layman, but based on the visual cues in the image, this is what it appears the elevation will be like. I am also assuming that they would need to build that hill, which would involve bringing in a massive amount of fill dirt.

https://www.okctalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18443&d=1699385186

Please forgive the crude drawing, but hopefully this helps to illustrate what I'm talking about. I'm making assumptions here because I'm only a layman, but based on the visual cues in the image, this is what it appears the elevation will be like. I am also assuming that they would need to build that hill, which would involve bringing in a massive amount of fill dirt.

https://www.okctalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18443&d=1699385186

For your theory to be true, the downward grade change from the 'Top of Hill' across the parking lot behind would have to be equal to that of the seating area, and the pitch of the slope probably greater given what seems to be a shorter (maybe significantly shorter) distance.

The elevation changes have to be equal to match up with ground level all around. And there is no way that is 1) what is shown here and 2) even possible. No parking lot has anything like the slope of the seating area depicted. Imagine getting into your car at the back of the seating and driving straight down to the stage -- that's what you are suggesting, just the other direction.


My central point is that this amphitheater will be much more spread out and flatter than these renderings show, which means the images are highly distorted.

Look at this Notes Live facility planned for Tennesee.

Way smaller than the OKC venue yet the rear of the facility is lifted way off the ground to provide the proper slope.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/sunset110623g.jpg


Similarly, the proposed DFW facility shows a big structure at the rear.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/sunset110623e.jpg

That Tennessee facility looks way better. The pits don't stand out nearly as much (though I still think they are garish) and it looks like the real fans have more room to actually experience the show. The Texas one looks horrible. Again I have to wonder what kind of show makes the fans happy in a place where it feels like most of the space is dedicated to high rollers.

I don't think we should worry too much about the accuracy of concept art in regards to things like elevations though. I'm sure the civils/architects will figure it out somehow, lol, or it wouldn't get built.

The fact this same group is trying to build about 10 more of these facilities before they have even opened one is very concerning.

I'm not at all saying those involved are dishonest but when you are taking money from thousands of people across many huge construction projects which are notorious for going way over budget, it's incredibly risky. And the CEO has declared bankruptcy in the past as have at least two of his companies.

Plus there is simply no way those renderings are close to reality for all the reasons I've mentioned.

This and the fact they mentioned in the Oklahoman article that fire pit suite buyers will earn 19% on their investment. Rrrrright.

^

They will figure out the engineering by building it much flatter than is shown in the renderings, which means most of the seats are very far removed from the stage.

That's a hugely important point because I've been to amphitheaters with that type of layout and most of the area feels like you are miles away and you end up watching the entire show on the big screens with half the people completely distracted.

This is exactly why they are using heavily distorted renderings, which is itself intentionally misleading.

This and the fact they mentioned in the Oklahoman article that fire pit suite buyers will earn 19% on their investment. Rrrrright.

And get a discount on cheese fries

Look at this Notes Live facility planned for Tennesee.

Way, way smaller than the OKC venue yet the rear of the facility is lifted way off the ground to provide the proper slope. So, extrapolated by 5 and you have a ton of elevation gain at the size of the Mustang facility, yet somehow that all levels out to the surrounding roads? [...]

Respectfully, it doesn't. The main parking lot behind the rows of seating is NOT at ground level. When you look at the contextual clues in these renderings, the parking spots closest to the back rows of seating are definitely depicted as being elevated to the same level as the entry walkway into the facility - which you can tell is also elevated above ground level due to the presence of the retaining wall shown in the rendering. The peak of the hill is under the private suites at the back of the amphitheater, and the parking lot is sloped downward from there toward the rear of the property. The only thing elevated over the peak of the hill are the private suites. All of the other parking lots shown in the rendering are on flat ground at ground level - only the main parking lot behind the seating would be sloped like this.

Here's an even more crude drawing that absolutely isn't to scale! But if you were to stand at ground level and look at this thing from the side, this is what the rendering suggests to me that the elevation would look like:
https://www.okctalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18444&d=1699391346

Now, that said - I'm 100% on board with the idea that this is a generic concept image and not specific to what's planned for OKC. None of the surrounding background elements in the rendering match the area around the amphitheater on Mustang Creek Crossing's development plans (https://www.cedarsgroupcommercialdevelopment.com/projects/mustang-creek-crossing). The scale of the facility in these renderings also doesn't appear to fit with the actual space earmarked for the amphitheater. I hope they release some new renderings that are actually specific to OKC soon so we can get a better idea of what this will *actually* look like!

You are conflating two different points. In your hypothesis, of course the parking nearest the seating is not at ground level, hence the impossibly sloped parking lot. At Tennessee, they didn't attempt something so costly and unrealistic even in a much smaller facility; they merely built a structure at the back and kept the area around it flat.

It's one or the other given a venue this size. You either have impossibly sloped parking (and huge retaining walls and big slopes in all directions) or you build a structure at the rear that would need to be quite high to have any slope at all given the number of seats and big chunks being low density.

The renderings show neither and my point is they can't be close to what they end up building. So, what will it actually look like? How far will most seats be away from the stage? We don't know but there is no way they can build as depicted.

I expect that if this is built, it won't much resemble the images and therefore they should be largely disregarded as unrealistic marketing hype.

Colorado-based Notes Live has submitted planning documents for the proposed 12,000-seat amphitheater in far west Oklahoma City near Mustang.


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/noteslive121123fg.jpg


The exact location would be just north of Mustang North Middle School, with Kilpatrick Turnpike to the West, SW 15th to the south and between Mustang Road and Sarah Road. I-40 is just to the north.

The group is under construction on a similar project in Colorado Springs and is seeking investors for additional locations around the U.S., including Tulsa.

For the OKC facility, they are still advertising fire pit memberships for sale.

From their website:

"The Sunset Amphitheater at Mustang Creek will be a state-of-the-art outdoor amphitheater located in Oklahoma City, with a total capacity of 12,000, comprised of 120 eight-person VIP fire pit suites available for lifetime purchase, 12 super suites, lower and upper bowl fixed seating, and a general admission lawn. Each fire pit suite will feature a natural gas-powered fire pit and fully configurable seats with abundant room for food and beverages, to make for an exceptional and private environment to take in a show. The amenity-rich fire pit suites offer incredible views of the stage. To elevate the experience even further, they will include high-touch service for food and beverage before and during the show. The Sunset Amphitheater at Mustang Creek will be the most luxurious and hospitality focused music venue in Oklahoma City."



HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/notes1.jpg


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/noteslive121123f.jpg


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/noteslive121123d.jpg


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/noteslive121123c.jpg


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/noteslive121123a.jpg


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/noteslive121123x.jpg

So the entry/exit is utilizing the old turnpike. That is pretty cool.

The Adventure District is a better option for this project, IMO.

The Adventure District is a better option for this project, IMO.

Beggars can't be choosers.