The new sports site that Tramel adn Jenni Carlson left the Oklahoman for is live now.
Yeah, no paywalls!

https://selloutcrowd.com/

I talked to the main guy at Sellout Crowd, Mike Koehler, a former Oklahoman employee.

He said SC helped each writer set up their own website, Youtube channel, and brand -- all of those belong to the writers/broadcasters.

The Sellout Crown site is basically an aggregator for all of them, and each gets a share of the advertising the site generates.


Interestingly, I find myself reading Tramel a lot less since he made this move. And I'm not really that interested in the rest.

Is Sellout Crowd eventually going to be a subscription site?

Is Sellout Crowd eventually going to be a subscription site?

I don't think so.

I really like a lot of their writers in addition to Berry T. Guerin Emig for example is very good IMO.

I'm starting to warm up to Sellout Crowd.

It seems Berry Tramel is writing more than he was before, and he just had a great podcast with Dusty Dvoracek.

Tramel is the one sportswriter in this state who seems to really do a lot of research and often uses that for perspective. To me, that sets him way apart from everyone else.


I hope all these writers are making money, especially since most of them were laid off or underappreciated (I remember when they forced Tramel and others into unpaid furlows) by the state's two biggest newspapers.

I'm starting to warm up to Sellout Crowd.

It seems Berry Tramel is writing more than he was before, and he just had a great podcast with Dusty Dvoracek.

Tramel is the one sportswriter in this state who seems to really do a lot of research and often uses that for perspective. To me, that sets him way apart from everyone else.


I hope all these writers are making money, especially since most of them were laid off or underappreciated (I remember when they forced Tramel and others into unpaid furlows) by the state's two biggest newspapers.

Berry is a sports writer who is also an historian. That is my favorite sub-genre of sports writers. He is also very accessible and although I don't always agree with him, he has never failed to answer an email I sent him.

He is also very accessible and although I don't always agree with him, he has never failed to answer an email I sent him.

Agree 100%. I have had the opportunity to meet Berry on a couple of occasions at various events. The very first time I saw him, I decided to strike up a conversation. We ended up chatting for quite some time. A year later or so, I saw him again and he remembered me. We chatted again for a bit even though there were plenty more important people at this particular function. Just an overall good guy and a very good writer.

I've grown to really like Eli Lederman, who was the OU beat writer (served the same role for OSU for a year previously) for the Tulsa World who left on his own accord to join Sellout Crowd.

He's a sharp, young dude who is originally from New York state and went to a real journalism school (Mizzou).

Already very good at what he does and he's still in his 20s.

I've enjoyed the content so far, both written on the site and Berry Tramel's podcast. He has used his network to bring in some great guests.

I have seen at least two people (Todd Lisenbee and Eli Lederman) tweet that today is their last day at Sellout Crowd. I am wondering if this means the entire site isn’t long for this world.

I have seen at least two people (Todd Lisenbee and Eli Lederman) tweet that today is their last day at Sellout Crowd. I am wondering if this means the entire site isn’t long for this world.

I think Eli Lederman is really good and the best on that site.

I talked at length to the founder and basically it's a bunch of Oklahoma legacy media people trying to create their own digital brand, and SellOut is the umbrella with tools to make that happen, then serves as an aggregator.

It's all unproven and may be an easy way to start your own channel, but I'll have to talk to people behind the scenes to see what kind of revenue is being created.

I have seen at least two people (Todd Lisenbee and Eli Lederman) tweet that today is their last day at Sellout Crowd. I am wondering if this means the entire site isn’t long for this world.

add Brett Dawson to this list

add Brett Dawson to this list

and the hutchens twins

and emig ..

Several of them saying they were 'laid off'.

Something strange going on here.

I recall hearing somewhere it was primarily funded by Bob Stoops and Toby Keith.

Yeah you have to wonder if Toby Keith's passing is a factor.

This does not sound good:



Todd Lisenbee
@ToddOnSports

Someday I will tell the (unedited) story of everything that happened at Sellout Crowd and how nearly all of what I was promised never came to fruition. I took a chance and it didn't work out, and I can rest easy knowing that I did the best I could.

I appreciate all the support from all of you. It would've been nice to have that support from the behind the scenes leadership at Sellout.

Guerin Emig did several posts following this one below. Definitely sounds bad.
@GuerinEmig
Sellout Crowd unraveled today, and the only thing worth understanding right now is decent people suffered as a result. (more ahead)

They let go of 7 of their "content creators" yesterday.

Tweet from Berry Tramel: https://twitter.com/BerryTramel/status/1764755290736447931


Tough day at Sellout Crowd. We said goodbye to a bunch of great colleagues. We had big plans when we launched, now we have to thin down, but getting to work with Guerin Emig, the Hutchens twins, Eli Lederman and Todd Lisenbee was a tremendous experience...

I have no insight here but I’ll suspect Toby Keith was consistently writing ongoing checks to get it up and running, and now those checks are no longer coming. The timing is too coincidental. It sounds like this project was a bit of a labor of love for him.

After cutting 7 of 12 content creators, the 5 left are:

Berry Tramel
Jenni Carlson
Bob Stoops
Scott Verplank
Sam Mayes


And really, the only two that generate consistent content and coverage are Tramel and Carlson.

Kinda looks like the first Monday in March was the deadline to "pay to play". Guessing Stoops and Verplank could buy in, and Carlson and Tramel generate enough revenue. Not sure about Sam Mayes.

Yeah of all that got cut....Mayes stays?

Scott Verplank was a neighbor of my good friend and he has almost no personality, something evident on his podcast.

And I love Bob Stoops but he's not very good at this either.

It's really down to Berry and Jenni and it's hard to believe the two of them could carry an entire business.

Yeah of all that got cut....Mayes stays?

My guess is that he was the lowest compensated member of the group and cheap enough to keep for the time being.

She done!

Per TLO:

According to the Ogle Mole Network, the overly ambitious and financially impractical Oklahoma sports website –
@selloutcrowd_
– is shutting down this week.

I'm hearing current and former employees are owed a lot of money, investors feel like they were ripped off, and lawsuits will likely be filed.

^

It was backed by Toby Keith and that investment has dried up due to his death.

The way they are set up, each writer has their own brand and media channels. So, people like Berry Tramel and Jenni Carlson will likely just continue on that path, just not have the Sellout aggregator. And since they have been the main draw, things probably won't change much for them.

It was an interesting idea. Not sure why anyone would sue as there can't be many/any assets.

Yes, that was part of the TLO post, not my words, so not sure on basis for a claim unless there was some claimed misrepresentation made by someone personally or something.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Berry increased his time on the Sports Animal too. (Wish he would take over for Al).

Yes, that was part of the TLO post, not my words, so not sure on basis for a claim unless there was some claimed misrepresentation made by someone personally or something.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Berry increased his time on the Sports Animal too. (Wish he would take over for Al).

on a side note about the local sports radio. I like the franchise but absolutely can't stand jerry ramsey. He's the absolute worst. I have completely stopped listening to it because he seems to always be on when I turn it over so I've stopped turning over to it.

^I would not argue with you!:)

Me too. I have no clue how Ramsey stays on the air. His only claim to fame is being funny. Which he isn't. I'm also not a fan of Phil Inzinga for the same reason.

Good comparison Bill. Like they have to have a guy with a schtick to inject humor. Kelly Gregg is the funniest guy on local radio.

Good comparison Bill. Like they have to have a guy with a schtick to inject humor. Kelly Gregg is the funniest guy on local radio.

Yes, Kelly Gregg is amazing, love that guys stories. I wish he was on more.

Can't stand Jerry either, my guess is that he gets so much air time because he is cheap. Big fan of Kelly Gregg. KREF is my go to when I want local sports radio.

Interesting comments on Sports Animal last night by Al and Traber going after the organizer of the deal - they called him a “scam artist.” Saw posts from Berry and Jenny C on X about the shut down in general. Called if flawed from the inception.

Interesting comments on Sports Animal last night by Al and Traber going after the organizer of the deal - they called him a “scam artist.” Saw posts from Berry and Jenny C on X about the shut down in general. Called if flawed from the inception.

If the organizer was a scam artist, surely there was evidence or knowledge of that before they all jumped on the train and became a part.

The founder and main man was Mike Koehler, formerly of OPUBCO.

I talked to him when Sellout Crowd first launched. The general idea was that SC would allow various sportswriters to create their own social media channels, then also benefit from the SC aggregator. At the same time, SC provided resources to help with podcasts, video production, etc.

I suspect they all receive revenue from their social media channels, then some share of the revenue generated by SC overall.

It was an interesting idea that drew a bunch of well-known sports journalists in the state. However, the aggregator never seemed to get much traction and I think many of the contributors vastly overestimated the value of their coverage and opinions. There are just so many sources for all that already and I never understood how they expected to grow a substantial market share.

Also, I don't think anyone in this state truly understands how to really grow social media. It takes two things: 1) original content that interests a sizeable audience and draws an ever-growing number of followers; and 2) years and years of work. You can't just do what others are already doing; you need to have a unique niche and then work the hell out of it.

Todd Lisenbee has been very frank about his experience with Sellout. His explanation strongly suggests talent was drawn in by, shall we say, "allegedly" bogus claims about investment into the company that was really a loan, and most of their financing came from Toby Keith. Sounds like a serious shell game, and when Keith passed, they were running on fumes. Sounds like all arrows of blame are being pointed at Koehler, but even if all kinds of threats to sue are launched, it's going to be tough sledding to find any assets to attach from which to peg any recovery. Sounds like a lot of people got dragged in. I know opinions of Tramel run the gamut, but whether you agree with his sports takes, I surely don't take him to be dumb, and how he didn't see this poor financial footing from the outset is a little mystifying.

It seems all the writers had either been recently laid off from the Tulsa World or Oklahoman, or opted to take a buyout in order to pursue Sellout Crowd. It's hard to imagine that Tramel couldn't have stayed at the Oklahoman if that's what he wanted to do.

But everyone else had almost nothing going on and thus little to lose. Maybe they had to buy in? Otherwise, just go back to what you were doing; all of them still have their own social media channels.

It seems all the writers had either been recently laid off from the Tulsa World or Oklahoman, or opted to take a buyout in order to pursue Sellout Crowd. It's hard to imagine that Tramel couldn't have stayed at the Oklahoman if that's what he wanted to do.

But everyone else had almost nothing going on and thus little to lose. Maybe they had to buy in? Otherwise, just go back to what you were doing; all of them still have their own social media channels.

Yeah I don't really understand all the scam comments. They had what seemed like a decent idea if done properly. They just probably didn't execute it all that well and didn't have enough of a runway from a financing standpoint for it gain the necessary traction to take off. It sounds like that combined with their limited funding drying up when Toby passed just put the the nail in the coffin.

Overall it's just disappointing that it failed. Similar to Prairie Surf (which is obviously starting to struggle as well), it's somewhat rare in Oklahoma for people to take big, outside the box (or outside of traditional OK industry) ideas and attempt to execute them. Really disappointing when they don't work out.

^

The main complaint seems to be that they were given false information and assurances and then decided to leave other paying gigs to sign up with SC. They thought there was enough funding for a 3-year run but that proved incorrect and they feel misled.

I'm sure there is another side to this story, just don't know if we'll ever hear it.

^

The main complaint seems to be that they were given false information and assurances and then decided to leave other paying gigs to sign up with SC. They thought there was enough funding for a 3-year run but that proved incorrect and they feel misled.

I'm sure there is another side to this story, just don't know if we'll ever hear it.

That seems like a reasonable complaint. Just wonder how much Toby Keith passing away had to do with the abrupt funding cut.

That seems like a reasonable complaint. Just wonder how much Toby Keith passing away had to do with the abrupt funding cut.

Todd Lisinbee -- one of the biggest critics of SC -- has said repeatedly that Toby's death had nothing to do with the failure.

He also said he and others were told there were 3 years of funding (likely a big chunk of it coming from Toby) but that it was always a loan, not a direct investment.

I don't listen to local sports radio so no idea who most of the personalities or journalists are but...

...Sellout Crowd concept had a scammy vibe as soon as it was announced.

OK, I am going to sound like an idiot, so feel free to blast me if you want...

Is there enough sports in Oklahoma to have a fully run sports website? The website has listed the Thunder, OU and OSU as things covered. I don't see anything on the website on high school sports, but maybe it wasn't viable because most of the content was already being covered by ESPN affiliates?

Again, I might sound a bit obtuse, but am asking to better understand...

OK, I am going to sound like an idiot, so feel free to blast me if you want...

Is there enough sports in Oklahoma to have a fully run sports website? The website has listed the Thunder, OU and OSU as things covered. I don't see anything on the website on high school sports, but maybe it wasn't viable because most of the content was already being covered by ESPN affiliates?

Again, I might sound a bit obtuse, but am asking to better understand...

exactly this. i remember just a few years ago, had a friends kid playing at UCO, and could never get details on their sports. why only cover OU and OSU. i mean atleast put up box scores for the smaller universities and high schools. then you generate some regular traffic and hopefully they stay around for the content that truly makes them money.

OK, I am going to sound like an idiot, so feel free to blast me if you want...

Is there enough sports in Oklahoma to have a fully run sports website? The website has listed the Thunder, OU and OSU as things covered. I don't see anything on the website on high school sports, but maybe it wasn't viable because most of the content was already being covered by ESPN affiliates?

Again, I might sound a bit obtuse, but am asking to better understand...

There are plenty of sports but is there a large enough population to support it financially?

Also, I don't think anyone in this state truly understands how to really grow social media. It takes two things: 1) original content that interests a sizeable audience and draws an ever-growing number of followers; and 2) years and years of work. You can't just do what others are already doing; you need to have a unique niche and then work the hell out of it.
I think it's a generational issue as much as anything.

At a former job I worked with a task force group that was trying to do anti vaping and anti smoking targeted at youth. One of their ideas was to use Facebook. They thought they were being progressive. It had to be explained to them that their target audience would never see it because no one under 30 uses Facebook.

But it also takes understanding your audience and what you're providing.

Brett McKay who runs The Art of Manliness is from Edmond but lives now in Tulsa. He understands his product, his brand, and his audience. He knows how they consume his media so he doesn't waste time and effort on media channels where his audience isn't. He's built a successful business for himself but has kept it a small, cottage industry instead of trying to make it something it isn't.

They should have started small and refined the business model.
As PhiAlpha said, didn't have enough runway.

Hiring 15 people right out of the gate didn't allow them to trial and error everything over 4-5 years. Once they had a path to profitability, then you get the loan to go hire 15 people. You at least understand and know the model at that point.

The Athletic came screaming out of the gate, they had $139.5MM in funding (5 rounds), almost went bankrupt, eventually sold off to the NY Times, then re-org'ed with layoffs.

Media might be the hardest business there is.

Berry T headed to the Tulsa World.

It looks like they actually hired several of the creators as employees and more or less guaranteed them a 3-year salary.

I suppose that's why many of them are so mad. They thought they had a guaranteed income then it all imploded pretty quickly.

Sam Mayes has always been one of my favorite sports talk personalities (the favorite locally).

The Frontier has a good write-up on this mess.

https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/sold-out-the-rise-and-fall-of-americas-most-ambitious-sports-media-company/Sold out:
The rise and fall of America’s most ambitious sports media company
June 24, 2024
Sellout Crowd’s founders lured writers with promises of lucrative pay, and, thanks to some big name investors, enough funding to stay in business for three years. None of it was true.

This is the crux of any litigation, although I don't know if the main people accused have any money:


But Tramel said he later learned Sellout Crowd hadn’t raised the millions of dollars in cash to get the site off the ground that Koehler had claimed. What the startup had gotten instead was a $1.5 million loan from Toby Keith, Keith’s business partner Hunter Miller, and former University of Oklahoma Coach Bob Stoops that carried a 12% interest rate. And now, unaware, he was on the hook for it.

^What an absolute disaster. Berry must have signed a personal guaranty to be on the hook - just being an owner does make you personally liable on the company debt. Huge oversight by a very smart guy it appears.

Good article from The Frontier.

If this Koehler dude has his own marketing company, how is it still in business? It doesn't sound like he could successfully run a vacuum let alone a company. Did he just think that you could launch a site and the advertisers would come and find you? How did he not have that lined up ahead of time? It sounds like people from a 20th century industry trying to copy and paste it onto a 21st century model.

Good article from The Frontier.

If this Koehler dude has his own marketing company, how is it still in business? It doesn't sound like he could successfully run a vacuum let alone a company. Did he just think that you could launch a site and the advertisers would come and find you? How did he not have that lined up ahead of time? It sounds like people from a 20th century industry trying to copy and paste it onto a 21st century model.

Koehler was day-to-day but there was a self-described investment manager (Michael Carnuccio) who was raising the capital and interfacing with the big money guys.

I've seen the proformas that were sent out to investors and the numbers are insane. Like projecting someone like Jeni Carlson could bring in a sponsor for $35,000/month for her podcast and videocast. Plus, tens of thousands more a month for web ads driven by her content. Similarly, completely outrageous numbers were given for all the content providers.

They were also paying most the writers a guaranteed salary which was more than any had been making previously, which is why some quit their jobs. And they were promised that pay for 3 years.

This is complete craziness. The market price for digital advertising is very easy to determine just by getting rate sheets from some of the more success businesses in the area. I've done it myself. And I can tell you those ad rates are 50x market and then they projected that for all 20 or so creators.

Also, how do you expect to pay salaries from the jump?? You have no revenue.


They took this big chunk of money (turned out to be a loan, not an investment) and then burned through most of it in only a couple of months. And if they generated more than a few thousand dollars in revenue I'd be very surprised vs. the $1.5MM+ they spent in this short time.

My impression that Koehler was going on the projections of others and was way out of his depth.


I have to say absolutely everyone involved looks pretty bad in this situation. Nobody did even a cursory due diligence and if they had they would have quickly realized none of this was remotely realistic. Somebody put ridiculous numbers into a Powerpoint, went out and got a high-interest loan, and then everyone just followed him over the cliff.

Koehler was day-to-day but there was a self-described investment manager (Michael Carnuccio) who was raising the capital and interfacing with the big money guys.

I've seen the proformas that were sent out to investors and the numbers are insane. Like projecting someone like Jeni Carlson could bring in a sponsor for $35,000/month for her podcast and videocast. Plus, tens of thousands more a month for web ads driven by her content. Similarly, completely outrageous numbers were given for all the content providers.

They were also paying most the writers a guaranteed salary which was more than any had been making previously, which is why some quit their jobs. And they were promised that pay for 3 years.

This is complete craziness. The market price for digital advertising is very easy to determine just by getting rate sheets from some of the more success businesses in the area. I've done it myself. And I can tell you those ad rates are 50x market and then they projected that for all 20 or so creators.

Also, how do you expect to pay salaries from the jump?? You have no revenue.


They took this big chunk of money (turned out to be a loan, not an investment) and then burned through most of it in only a couple of months. And if they generated more than a few thousand dollars in revenue I'd be very surprised vs. the $1.5MM+ they spent in this short time.

My impression that Koehler was going on the projections of others and was way out of his depth.


I have to say absolutely everyone involved looks pretty bad in this situation. Nobody did even a cursory due diligence and if they had they would have quickly realized none of this was remotely realistic. Somebody put ridiculous numbers into a Powerpoint, went out and got a high-interest loan, and then everyone just followed him over the cliff.

TK and Stoops giving out private loans with 12 percent vigorish is like the Okie version of the Sopranos. Drake Stoops is going to make collections Moltisanti style. :D

just being an owner does make you personally liable on the company debt

I think this is supposed to read "Just being an owner does not make you personally liable on the company debt."