Staffing will be the biggest issue. Not sure how may people from Tulsa is going want to commute back and forth 65 miles everyday.
I mean they probably had the same issue with Disney World in Orlando and they figured it out. I’m sure they can hear. Vanita is going to grow A LOT if this happens.

LOL. Yes I never said they would build a casino as part of the project...Okana is a big resort without a casino. i said they could build one nearby which the amusement park would have absolutely no control over. Obviously if brought in, they would be brought in as a financial backer.

My point was that it would certainly benefit them if this blew up and brought millions of people into their reservation area every year (as an example, they would have a massive built-in crowd for a casino/resort between the amusement park and Grand Lake) so there is plenty of financial motivation for them to support it. They don’t have the benefit that the chickasaws do of being the closest casinos to the DFW area so anything that draws people to their area is a good thing.

There already are a couple of casinos on the lake.

Staffing will be tough, but not as bad as people think. I know SDC struggles with staffing, and I probably mentioned it once before but they are just about to open a new employee dormitory/apartment building right next to SDC to help attract workers. They could do similar, but really there are a good amount of people willing to drive 30ish mins within the area. Since they are just off of I44, within 40 mins you've got quite a few towns such as Grove, Pryor, Miami, and almost Claremore, not to mention a plethora of tiny towns and rural people. They could scrounge up a few hundred workers pretty quickly, and more will move into the area as opportunities open up and housing is built.

There already are a couple of casinos on the lake.

There's one small casino in Grove which is 30 minutes away from Vinita and well off the beaten path from I-44. Others are quite a bit farther than that. Grove could probably draw from something like this...but if you're the tribe and can build one almost where ever you want...why not build one closer to this (assuming it becomes anything similar to what they are proposing) which would be the only one on the west side of the lake?

well the dude isn’t worth $2 Billion so that would seem kind of odd.

I mean...finance is definitely a real thing. And we have no idea how many investors they already have. Bicknell (apparently the main investor) just received a documented tax return windfall of $63 million, and that was money that was initially taken from him - wrongly, according to the courts - as part of a transaction wherein he sold 800 Pizza Huts that he owned. Meaning the sale number was surely many multiples of that original tax withholding. The most recent pre-sale era revenue numbers I could find for NPC (his holding company) was half a billion in annual sales. I'm sure when he sold his shares what he ended up clearing was in the multiple hundreds of millions.

He also owns radio stations and other businesses, and Mansion Entertainment looks to be huge and growing in the fields of live entertainment, film and TV production, animation and others. They are the main sponsor for the 2024 Rose Parade. People like this know how to gain project financing.

And THG Creative just announced a partnership with American Heartland (https://thgcreative.com/). Click on that link and you will find that they are a pretty massive player in the attractions industry.

Last but not least, Cathy O'Connor (former CEO for Oklahoma City's Alliance for Economic Development) just announced on social media that her consulting firm is working on this project, meaning that most likely they will be pursuing a dedicated TIF for the development's footprint and likely also any state incentives that make sense. All of this tells me that this is a pretty serious project, and far from a simple "throw it at the wall and see if it sticks" call for investors. I think it's real, and I think these people know what they are doing when it comes to financing a project like this.

I mean...finance is definitely a real thing. And we have no idea how many investors they already have. Bicknell (apparently the main investor) just received a documented tax return windfall of $63 million, and that was money that was initially taken from him - wrongly, according to the courts - as part of a transaction wherein he sold 800 Pizza Huts that he owned. Meaning the sale number was surely many multiples of that original tax withholding. The most recent pre-sale era revenue numbers I could find for NPC (his holding company) was half a billion in annual sales. I'm sure when he sold his shares what he ended up clearing was in the multiple hundreds of millions.

He also owns radio stations and other businesses, and Mansion Entertainment looks to be huge and growing in the fields of live entertainment, film and TV production, animation and others. They are the main sponsor for the 2024 Rose Parade. People like this know how to gain project financing.

And THG Creative just announced a partnership with American Heartland (https://thgcreative.com/). Click on that link and you will find that they are a pretty massive player in the attractions industry.

Last but not least, Cathy O'Connor (former CEO for Oklahoma City's Alliance for Economic Development) just announced on social media that her consulting firm is working on this project, meaning that most likely they will be pursuing a dedicated TIF for the development's footprint and likely also any state incentives that make sense. All of this tells me that this is a pretty serious project, and far from a simple "throw it at the wall and see if it sticks" call for investors. I think it's real, and I think these people know what they are doing when it comes to financing a project like this.I agree. I think they still have a lot of moving parts to put together, but good businesses don't hire people like Cathy O'Connor on a whim. Her consulting firm is pretty pricey.

And if climate change keeps happening and Florida and California end up underwater, Oklahoma might just be the new Florida! :wink:

Reminder that the very dubious guy with Block 405 also hired Cathy O'Connor. So did Strawberry Fields some time ago.

Her involvement is by no means a stamp of credibility.

There are more millionaires and billionaires than ever. So, it shouldn't be too hard to find financing for Heartland. Probably enough of them would think it would be cool with building the next Disney World. Musk was crazy enough to raise and pay $44 billion for Twitter. $250 million would just be pocket change to these billionaires. Or hog credit for the whole thing by throwing in $2 billion. The man behind it is wealthy and well accomplished himself, so would have some credibility with them.

Reminder that the very dubious guy with Block 405 also hired Cathy O'Connor. So did Strawberry Fields some time ago.

Her involvement is by no means a stamp of credibility.
Since I’m the one who mentioned Cathy’s announcement I suppose this is directed at me. I didn’t mention it to infer credibility, and not sure why you read it that way. I mentioned her because a previous poster had raised questions regarding funding.

While her involvement may or may not speak to the legitimacy of a client, I think we can agree that she has made a career out of connecting developers with public incentives. Her involvement infers a pursuit of incentive dollars, and also probably gives them an excellent chance of success in that specific regard. In no way speaks to the developer’s legitimacy, though I’ve come to believe they do indeed have more of that than I’d originally expected.

I mean...finance is definitely a real thing. And we have no idea how many investors they already have. Bicknell (apparently the main investor) just received a documented tax return windfall of $63 million, and that was money that was initially taken from him - wrongly, according to the courts - as part of a transaction wherein he sold 800 Pizza Huts that he owned. Meaning the sale number was surely many multiples of that original tax withholding. The most recent pre-sale era revenue numbers I could find for NPC (his holding company) was half a billion in annual sales. I'm sure when he sold his shares what he ended up clearing was in the multiple hundreds of millions.

He also owns radio stations and other businesses, and Mansion Entertainment looks to be huge and growing in the fields of live entertainment, film and TV production, animation and others. They are the main sponsor for the 2024 Rose Parade. People like this know how to gain project financing.

And THG Creative just announced a partnership with American Heartland (https://thgcreative.com/). Click on that link and you will find that they are a pretty massive player in the attractions industry.

Last but not least, Cathy O'Connor (former CEO for Oklahoma City's Alliance for Economic Development) just announced on social media that her consulting firm is working on this project, meaning that most likely they will be pursuing a dedicated TIF for the development's footprint and likely also any state incentives that make sense. All of this tells me that this is a pretty serious project, and far from a simple "throw it at the wall and see if it sticks" call for investors. I think it's real, and I think these people know what they are doing when it comes to financing a project like this.

I agree that financing would be the route he probably plans to take. But $2 Billion is a ton of money even for a guy worth several hundred million and it would seem odd maybe even foolish not to seek additional investors on it. Maybe the guy is capable of getting a substantial part of that $2 Billion in financing but it’s just seems hard to believe…especially for an amusement park in the middle of nowhere (relatively speaking). $1-2 billion in financing for a residential tower in the middle of an urban area or a resort on the coast? Sure but that would seem like a big ask for an amusement park in general let alone a start up that’s an hour from the closest large city (which is only 1 million people).

First off, we don’t know if he’s only worth a few hundred million dollars. I do know I read somewhere that his own son has an estimated net worth of $1 billion, independent of his father. Second, we don’t know if he’s the only investor. Could be that there’s a network of billionaires quietly chipping in because they like the guy’s politics or something. Who knows? We don’t, and that’s my point.

First off, we don’t know if he’s only worth a few hundred million dollars. I do know I read somewhere that his own son has an estimated net worth of $1 billion, independent of his father. Second, we don’t know if he’s the only investor. Could be that there’s a network of billionaires quietly chipping in because they like the guy’s politics or something. Who knows? We don’t, and that’s my point.

Fair enough. Definitely hope that’s the case

I agree that financing would be the route he probably plans to take. But $2 Billion is a ton of money even for a guy worth several hundred million and it would seem odd maybe even foolish not to seek additional investors on it. Maybe the guy is capable of getting a substantial part of that $2 Billion in financing but it’s just seems hard to believe…especially for an amusement park in the middle of nowhere (relatively speaking). $1-2 billion in financing for a residential tower in the middle of an urban area or a resort on the coast? Sure but that would seem like a big ask for an amusement park in general let alone a start up that’s an hour from the closest large city (which is only 1 million people).

At least the circumstances you brought up didn't keep Branson from being a long-term success to this day.

At least the circumstances you brought up didn't keep Branson from being a long-term success to this day.

What do you mean? Branson wasn't made by one person or one main investor... None of those circumstances are at all pertinent to Branson except maybe being in the middle of nowhere.

It seems their marketing is confusing at least some people....

Disney Bringing Enchanting New Theme Park to Oklahoma | stupidDOPE (https://stupiddope.com/2023/07/disneyland-oklahoma-american-heartland/)

It seems their marketing is confusing at least some people....

Disney Bringing Enchanting New Theme Park to Oklahoma | stupidDOPE (https://stupiddope.com/2023/07/disneyland-oklahoma-american-heartland/)

Yeah, that's just bad research... I was thinking it was a parody, like a lost ogle type of site, but it is not.

Yeah, that's just bad research... I was thinking it was a parody, like a lost ogle type of site, but it is not.

That was my first thought, too. I had to double check to make sure it wasn't some parody / joke site before I commented. People responded to their tweet about it, commenting how they were wrong.

Well that’s Dope. And stupid.

At least the circumstances you brought up didn't keep Branson from being a long-term success to this day.

Uh…wut? How does your comment make any relative sense in response to mine? How does a situation in which potentially one guy wants to build a $2 billion destination resort and theme park in a 3 year timeframe in the middle of nowhere under today’s economic circumstances in general but especially regarding theme parks…compare in anyway to Branson outside of an off the beaten path location?

I've seen a few people bring up Branson in relation to the location of this development and getting established, and I don't think it compares that well. Branson did not randomly happen out in the sticks. Branson has been a tourist destination for a long time, even before the Table Rock Dam was built. It was a major fishing/camping/outdoor destination with fishing guides/camps all along the white river. When the dam was built, tourism grew, and then when the country stars started the trend of opening their own theatres it really exploded. This all happened decades ago when things were completely different and it has grown and evolved for decades. Obviously opening a hotel or a country music theatre today is a completely different investment/risk calculation than today. SDC, the large theme park people keep trying to compare this to, grew from a cave attraction in 1960 and didn't start adding major roller coasters on a regular basis until the 2000's.

Just completely different growth than trying to kick things off all at once. The only good example of someone building a giant theme park out in the middle of nowhere and making it work is Walt Disney with Disney World, and Disney was already a powerhouse at that point with DW being their second park, and Orlando wasn't THAT far away or THAT small.

I guess the fact that it's partially drawing people from the lake resorts and attractions is a similarity, so they aren't completely out in the middle of nowhere. Still not like they have an established resort town in the vicinity.

I've seen a few people bring up Branson in relation to the location of this development and getting established, and I don't think it compares that well. Branson did not randomly happen out in the sticks. Branson has been a tourist destination for a long time, even before the Table Rock Dam was built. It was a major fishing/camping/outdoor destination with fishing guides/camps all along the white river. When the dam was built, tourism grew, and then when the country stars started the trend of opening their own theatres it really exploded. This all happened decades ago when things were completely different and it has grown and evolved for decades. Obviously opening a hotel or a country music theatre today is a completely different investment/risk calculation than today. SDC, the large theme park people keep trying to compare this to, grew from a cave attraction in 1960 and didn't start adding major roller coasters on a regular basis until the 2000's.

Just completely different growth than trying to kick things off all at once. The only good example of someone building a giant theme park out in the middle of nowhere and making it work is Walt Disney with Disney World, and Disney was already a powerhouse at that point with DW being their second park, and Orlando wasn't THAT far away or THAT small.

I guess the fact that it's partially drawing people from the lake resorts and attractions is a similarity, so they aren't completely out in the middle of nowhere. Still not like they have an established resort town in the vicinity.

Orlando was pretty small back when Disney World was hatched. Disney World opened in 1971, and back in the early 1960s when Disney started planning and buying land Orland was just a large town. The 1960 census had Orlando with just 88,135 people and the Orlando metro area at only 263,540. Just a bit larger than Joplin, Mo today (51,762 city/181,460 metro), just as a comparison. Orlando is only 20 miles from Disney World, but then Joplin is only 40 miles from Vinita. Disney World does have Tampa about 55 miles away, but that’s just like Vinita has Tulsa 55 miles away. Back in 1960 Tampa’s metro population was 820,443. Tulsa’s population today is over a million.

Highways also are a difference. Vinita is on I-44, a major interstate that connects it to Tulsa and Joplin. Orlando did not have that in the early 60s. There was no interstate connecting Orlando to even Tampa yet.

I’m not saying this is going to happen or be the next Disney, but you can’t compare Disney today to this project, you should compare the situation and site for Disney when it started.

I think in some aspects of it being a small town it can be compared to Disney but I’d be surprised if it ended up anything like Disney or the quality of Disney. The only reason I mentioned that is them being built out in the sticks.

Florida had been growing massively long before Disney opened in Orlando; in fact as a percentage it grew more in the 60s and 70s than any other time.

That crazy growth, temperate weather, massive tourism and access to the huge population on the East Coast are the exact reasons Disney built there.

There is absolutely no comparison to tiny and shrinking Vinita, Oklahoma and nearly stagnate Joplin, Missouri.

Yes there is. Orlando was not at all growing and the NWA along with NE Oklahoma is growing in tourism so the comparison in that regard is valid IMO.

I could easily see Tulsa becoming the next austin type city a mega region from Tulsa to Osage to SW Missouri and NWA and Springfield along with Tahlequah and Grand Lake.

OKC becomes the mega economic engine for Oklahoma much like Dallas or Houston.

In order to reach their ambitious opening date, won’t they need to break ground immediately?

Yes there is. Orlando was not at all growing and the NWA along with NE Oklahoma is growing in tourism so the comparison in that regard is valid IMO.

This is nonsense.

Orlando quadrupled in size from 1950 to 1970 and Central Florida -- along with the rest of the state -- was growing at an incredibly fast rate.

The Orlando MSA is now twice the size of OKC and growing at a much, much faster rate. It won't be long before the population of the Orlando MSA is larger than the entire state of Oklahoma.


An attempt to compare this to Vinita, OK (population 5,000 and dropping) is absurd.

Ok we’ll see

I could easily see Tulsa becoming the next austin type city a mega region from Tulsa to Osage to SW Missouri and NWA and Springfield along with Tahlequah and Grand Lake.

OKC becomes the mega economic engine for Oklahoma much like Dallas or Houston.

Tulsa is growing at a slow rate and has been for decades.

Some pie-in-the-sky theme park in Vinita 60+ miles away is not going to change that.

Tulsa is growing at a slow rate and has been for decades.

Some pie-in-the-sky theme park in Vinita 60+ miles away is not going to change that.
Right now it is but the potential for growth is there. We’ll see what happens. I personally don’t care and I’m not expecting much. My opinion of Tulsa is it’s not a very nice town but has potential. I don’t like the place but I could see it building off of NWAs momentum.

Maybe the exact comparisons between current vanita and 1950 Orlando don’t make sense but my point is they are/were very small towns for the size of the theme parks proposed of course Disney was much larger and ambitious.

I could see NE Oklahoma become a tourist Mecca like SE Oklahoma is becoming.

Right now it is but the potential for growth is there. We’ll see what happens. I personally don’t care and I’m not expecting much. My opinion of Tulsa is it’s not a very nice town but has potential. I don’t like the place but I could see it building off of NWAs momentum.

Maybe the exact comparisons between current vanita and 1950 Orlando don’t make sense but my point is they are/were very small towns for the size of the theme parks proposed of course Disney was much larger and ambitious.

Dusney World started construction in the 1960's, not 1950. Disney also had name recognition and a sucessful brand going back to the early 20th century. Florida was already a tourist destination. Olahoma not so much.
There are no comparissons.

I’m not going around in circles anymore. Pete say I’m ridiculous. Anyone else say there is no comparison. I’ll beat the dead horse one more time and I say there is. Let’s see what happens with this sh!t.

In order to reach their ambitious opening date, wonÂ’t they need to break ground immediately?

I think it's hard to know at this point. Basically, it seems like everything we know about this has come from press releases issued by the developers (and maybe some statements by local officials). And there is no doubt that this information from their PR arm seems very ambitious in terms of scope and timeline, but, it also isn't likely to be saying what many seem to think it's saying.

For example, the 2 billion dollar figure. There's no breakdown in the press release, so I'm assuming that's for the entire development. Some have been taking that number and comparing it to the cost of other amusement parks. But there is nothing that indicates that is the amount being spent on the theme park itself. There are several components to this and the RV park, which is set to open first according to the release, is actually more than 2 times bigger, land wise, than the theme park is. That is a massive RV park. There's also mention of a 300 room resort hotel. They say "1000 acre" development, but we don't know if the land acquisition costs are included that $2 billion figure. My guess is that it would be.

I am not a developer, but I would guess they could probably get the RV park open by their stated open date. It's even possible they could get the amusement park open by the press release's stated date, but what does that really mean? Both could be officially open for business by that time, but would that be at the full scope and working amenities shown in the press releases and promo materials? Who knows? That would indeed be impressive.

Are they building a $2 billion dollar theme park in northeastern Oklahoma that will rival a Disney park in three in a half years? No. The press release doesn't really even indicate that, so it's weird that anyone is coming to that conclusion. Even at face value they are saying they're building a massive RV park, a resort hotel, and a theme park about 25% bigger than silver dollar city with a similar Americana theme. That's not nothing by any standard, but I think that comparisons to Disney World or the idea that this will transform Vinita into the next Orlando over the next couple of decades are a little strange. The press release suggests 5 million people will visit this development a year. By comparison, Branson, as a whole, gets 10 million visitors a year. Silver Dollar City gets 2.2 million or so.

Objectively, it sounds as if Vinita is going to get a world class RV park and, if that works, a nice theme park and resort to go with it. That will be nice for northeastern Oklahoma commerce, but I don't see anything concrete in the information we have now that it will be something that will transform the area into an international hub as some of suggested.

The website for the theme park literally says “Opening Fall 2026” so maybe that’s why people are coming to that conclusion.

The website for the theme park literally says “Opening Fall 2026” so maybe that’s why people are coming to that conclusion.

I just meant that even if they're able to meet that target, it doesn't mean it will be fully completed to the extent that they're showing in the press releases. I agree with you it sounds ambitious in context of what these renderings and press conference models show, but they could also open it with a fraction of what's shown and technically meet that date.

It's really all just guessing at this point, but what we've seen so far is more like campaign promises than a detailed road map of how it's actually going to be implemented. There could easily be phases to the amusement park and campgrounds that allow for them to officially open them before they're fully realized.

Y'all seem to forget that the Space Coast (Melbourne, Cocoa, Titusvillle, Orlando) was booming during the 60's and 70's.

"Family where do you want to go for summer vacation this year, DisneyWorld & Universal Studios in Orlando, Florida or American Heartland Theme Park in Vinita, Oklahoma?"

I rest my case, lol....

^^^^^^^^^^^^
This park will be for parents who don’t ask their children where they’d like the family to go for vacation. And parents who actively don’t want to go to Disney.

^Uh, you actually just made a case for this park. Many people in the central US can't/won't go to Disney. That's a huge part of the economic logic behind this, such as it is. Disney got prohibitively expensive last year, but apparently crowds have been lighter this year and prices may fall? It's still a huge pain for a family to fly out to Orlando and stay in a resort within Disney's kingdom. Driving to Vinita isn't much of a struggle for people from a multi-state region, including Texas.

BDP makes some good points. Would love to see a breakdown of what they are planning to open and when. $2 billion as a total buildout over the course of a decade or more is much more reasonable than it being plopped down all at once. They are making it sound like a lot is already in motion. Just have to wait and see what shows up at this point.

^Uh, you actually just made a case for this park. Many people in the central US can't/won't go to Disney. That's a huge part of the economic logic behind this, such as it is. Disney got prohibitively expensive last year, but apparently crowds have been lighter this year and prices may fall? It's still a huge pain for a family to fly out to Orlando and stay in a resort within Disney's kingdom. Driving to Vinita isn't much of a struggle for people from a multi-state region, including Texas.

BDP makes some good points. Would love to see a breakdown of what they are planning to open and when. $2 billion as a total buildout over the course of a decade or more is much more reasonable than it being plopped down all at once. They are making it sound like a lot is already in motion. Just have to wait and see what shows up at this point.

I'd say the small universal in Texas will take most of that crowd. Universal has the big rides and big IP names.

But also I will eat a shoe if this actually gets made to what they are showing in the renderings.

"Family where do you want to go for summer vacation this year, DisneyWorld & Universal Studios in Orlando, Florida or American Heartland Theme Park in Vinita, Oklahoma?"

I rest my case, lol....

You seem like the same kind of person that wonders how Long John Silvers stays in business.

News flash, people have different preferences.

I understand there is a niche for "This Is Merica" conservative families in the Bible Belt that will frequent to this park. But lets stop comparing it to DisneyWorld, its not even close.

Again, its in the middle of nowhere. I just don't see people booking flights and carving out a week vacation to go there. We will see...

I think it's hard to know at this point. Basically, it seems like everything we know about this has come from press releases issued by the developers (and maybe some statements by local officials). And there is no doubt that this information from their PR arm seems very ambitious in terms of scope and timeline, but, it also isn't likely to be saying what many seem to think it's saying.

For example, the 2 billion dollar figure. There's no breakdown in the press release, so I'm assuming that's for the entire development. Some have been taking that number and comparing it to the cost of other amusement parks. But there is nothing that indicates that is the amount being spent on the theme park itself. There are several components to this and the RV park, which is set to open first according to the release, is actually more than 2 times bigger, land wise, than the theme park is. That is a massive RV park. There's also mention of a 300 room resort hotel. They say "1000 acre" development, but we don't know if the land acquisition costs are included that $2 billion figure. My guess is that it would be.

I am not a developer, but I would guess they could probably get the RV park open by their stated open date. It's even possible they could get the amusement park open by the press release's stated date, but what does that really mean? Both could be officially open for business by that time, but would that be at the full scope and working amenities shown in the press releases and promo materials? Who knows? That would indeed be impressive.

Are they building a $2 billion dollar theme park in northeastern Oklahoma that will rival a Disney park in three in a half years? No. The press release doesn't really even indicate that, so it's weird that anyone is coming to that conclusion. Even at face value they are saying they're building a massive RV park, a resort hotel, and a theme park about 25% bigger than silver dollar city with a similar Americana theme. That's not nothing by any standard, but I think that comparisons to Disney World or the idea that this will transform Vinita into the next Orlando over the next couple of decades are a little strange. The press release suggests 5 million people will visit this development a year. By comparison, Branson, as a whole, gets 10 million visitors a year. Silver Dollar City gets 2.2 million or so.

Objectively, it sounds as if Vinita is going to get a world class RV park and, if that works, a nice theme park and resort to go with it. That will be nice for northeastern Oklahoma commerce, but I don't see anything concrete in the information we have now that it will be something that will transform the area into an international hub as some of suggested.

I'm one of the ones comparing that $2bln figure to other parks. Just to be clear, the new Universal Studios park, Epic Universe, is going to be 750 acres, which actually doubles the size of Universal. Universal has said that the land will also include an entertainment center, hotels, shops and restaurants, and there's certainly enough room for it all. It is slated to open 2025. That has a price tag of an estimated $1bln and includes over $150mil provided to the County to expand roads around the area. So, to recap, the difference between what we know between Epic Universe and American Heartland= American Heartland will have roughly 250 more acres and an RV park for only $1 billion more.

I'd say the small universal in Texas will take most of that crowd. Universal has the big rides and big IP names.

But also I will eat a shoe if this actually gets made to what they are showing in the renderings.

The universal resort in Texas will indeed be fairly small (at least by big destination park standards) and is aimed almost exclusively to younger kids. The larger Universal parks are for everyone, and even Disney gets a broad visitor base even though it's theoretically a kid's park. I don't think it will soak up the entire market for theme park entertainment. Even with both it at Six Flags, there's millions upon millions of people around Dallas alone and the Texas market is huge and underserved. I'm actually still surprised that Universal didn't opt for a more standard sized theme park in Dallas. They are building a second park in Orlando as we speak for pete's sake.

I understand there is a niche for "This Is Merica" conservative families in the Bible Belt that will frequent to this park. But lets stop comparing it to DisneyWorld, its not even close.

Again, its in the middle of nowhere. I just don't see people booking flights and carving out a week vacation to go there. We will see...

No need to get political. I'm sure there are people from all types of background that might enjoy an American Themed amusement park.

No need to get political. I'm sure there are people from all types of background that might enjoy an American Themed amusement park.
In fairness it seems that this development is inherently political in nature. If you check out the podcast of the lead investor he is all-in on the culture war stuff. Pretty sure this is intended to be an anti-Disney alternative park, and that the target market is people within reasonable driving distance (most of the central U.S.). I don’t think they give two ****s about missing the jet set crowd.

I think it's hard to know at this point. Basically, it seems like everything we know about this has come from press releases issued by the developers (and maybe some statements by local officials). And there is no doubt that this information from their PR arm seems very ambitious in terms of scope and timeline, but, it also isn't likely to be saying what many seem to think it's saying.

For example, the 2 billion dollar figure. There's no breakdown in the press release, so I'm assuming that's for the entire development. Some have been taking that number and comparing it to the cost of other amusement parks. But there is nothing that indicates that is the amount being spent on the theme park itself. There are several components to this and the RV park, which is set to open first according to the release, is actually more than 2 times bigger, land wise, than the theme park is. That is a massive RV park. There's also mention of a 300 room resort hotel. They say "1000 acre" development, but we don't know if the land acquisition costs are included that $2 billion figure. My guess is that it would be.

I am not a developer, but I would guess they could probably get the RV park open by their stated open date. It's even possible they could get the amusement park open by the press release's stated date, but what does that really mean? Both could be officially open for business by that time, but would that be at the full scope and working amenities shown in the press releases and promo materials? Who knows? That would indeed be impressive.

Are they building a $2 billion dollar theme park in northeastern Oklahoma that will rival a Disney park in three in a half years? No. The press release doesn't really even indicate that, so it's weird that anyone is coming to that conclusion. Even at face value they are saying they're building a massive RV park, a resort hotel, and a theme park about 25% bigger than silver dollar city with a similar Americana theme. That's not nothing by any standard, but I think that comparisons to Disney World or the idea that this will transform Vinita into the next Orlando over the next couple of decades are a little strange. The press release suggests 5 million people will visit this development a year. By comparison, Branson, as a whole, gets 10 million visitors a year. Silver Dollar City gets 2.2 million or so.

Objectively, it sounds as if Vinita is going to get a world class RV park and, if that works, a nice theme park and resort to go with it. That will be nice for northeastern Oklahoma commerce, but I don't see anything concrete in the information we have now that it will be something that will transform the area into an international hub as some of suggested.

FYI the land acquisition costs were $7 million or slightly more than that if you include other associated costs. They have around 1700 acres, given that there’s an in owned tract in the middle of their acreage leads me to believe they aren’t finished but time will tell if they spend more. Either way, a drop in the $2 Billion bucket but also not insignificant.

"Family where do you want to go for summer vacation this year, DisneyWorld & Universal Studios in Orlando, Florida or American Heartland Theme Park in Vinita, Oklahoma?"

I rest my case, lol....

And now do a potential price comparison for a family of 4-5. Driving vs flying. Accommodation at Disney vs a Hotel or RV Park in Vinita. And too far out to say for certain but I’m guessing significantly cheaper admission pricing vs Disney world.

Disney might be a once in a childhood experience (I was fortunate to have one opportunity growing up), but this (similar to SDC or six flags) might be an annual or bi-annual option even for some families that may not ever be able to afford one trip to Disney.

And now do a potential price comparison for a family of 4-5. Driving vs flying. Accommodation at Disney vs a Hotel or RV Park in Vinita. And too far out to say for certain but I’m guessing significantly cheaper admission pricing vs Disney world.

Disney might be a once in a childhood experience (I was fortunate to have one opportunity growing up), but this (similar to SDC or six flags) might be an annual or bi-annual option even for some families that may not ever be able to afford one trip to Disney.

And yet I know quite a few for whom Orlando is an every year destination. They have time shares, etc. Disney, Universal, and the others, as well as the Orlando dining scene and other entertainment, means they can keep going and see and do different and more things every year. And, the weather in Orlando in the winter offers a respite from biting Oklahoma winters. I just don't see that kind of tourism happening in this part of Oklahoma.

And yet I know quite a few for whom Orlando is an every year destination. They have time shares, etc. Disney, Universal, and the others, as well as the Orlando dining scene and other entertainment, means they can keep going and see and do different and more things every year. And, the weather in Orlando in the winter offers a respite from biting Oklahoma winters. I just don't see that kind of tourism happening in this part of Oklahoma.

Yes some people can afford to do that. I know some people who can also afford to have a beach house, a lake house complete with half million to two million dollar boat, and a house on a ski resort...and can even fly to each of them! I know people who just upgraded from one private jet to a bigger one.

How do you think the cost of all that in Orlando/Disney compares to something like driving to Silver Dollar City or Six Flags? The point is that many families can't afford to take an annual trip to Disney but could afford to drive to a nice resort in Oklahoma every year or two and not blow their entire entertainment budget for the next 3 years to do so.

"Family where do you want to go for summer vacation this year, DisneyWorld & Universal Studios in Orlando, Florida or American Heartland Theme Park in Vinita, Oklahoma?"

I rest my case, lol....

If the family has already been to Orlando before, then Vinita is likely to win out.

I’m not going around in circles anymore. Pete say I’m ridiculous. Anyone else say there is no comparison. I’ll beat the dead horse one more time and I say there is. Let’s see what happens with this sh!t.
You know, I gave it some thought and my comparison was ridiculous. I went and looked up some numbers and I don’t know what the hell I was thinking.

And yet I know quite a few for whom Orlando is an every year destination. They have time shares, etc. Disney, Universal, and the others, as well as the Orlando dining scene and other entertainment, means they can keep going and see and do different and more things every year. And, the weather in Orlando in the winter offers a respite from biting Oklahoma winters. I just don't see that kind of tourism happening in this part of Oklahoma.

That would be me and my family. This year we bought into Disney Vacation Club (Disney's timeshare). We are going to Disney next week for an extended weekend for my wife's birthday. Flights were about $1,100 through southwest. Direct OKC to MCO on the way out there and connecting in Austin on the way home. We were season passholders for four years and let our annual passes lapse in October of 2021. We would go 3-4 times per year. Most of the time we drove (18 hours, overnight stop in Olive Branch, MS, Tupelo or Atlanta area) over two days. We have stayed on property, off property, VRBO, Airbnb, Club Level at the Beach Club and every where in between. The draw for Disney is several things:

1. Year round good weather (for the most part)
2. The Disney Bubble is real. When you are there, it's like a different world
3. Activities for all ages. Want to drink around the world? Got it. Want a six month old to go on the tea cups? Got that too. And everything in between
4. Service and people is top shelf. In our more 15+ years going to Disney, I have maybe 2-3 bad experiences with an employee (cast member). Every sit down dinner, servers are very nice, informed and helpful. Cast Members at parks are usually in a good mood, smiling and helpful.
5. The theming is great. There are certain small details at Disney that people might not notice but the designers have put in so people would have with it (google search hidden mickey's in WDW).
6. At Disney World, if you don't go that often, you need a week to make sure you can do a lot. We have been to Disney hundreds of times (days, not trips) and there are still things we haven't done.

Beyond all that, my dad and his family grew up in Orlando. He was born in 1946 and was 20 years old when Disney announced it was coming to Orlando. It might have been small, but it didn't have just 5,000 people. The point of all this is comparing the potential of this theme park to Disney is not needed. Just say it is inspired by Disney and ex-Imagineers from Disney are working on it.

According to this video Bicknell apparently has the money to build it:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suJiUUE-diY&ab_channel=MickeyViews

So, to recap, the difference between what we know between Epic Universe and American Heartland= American Heartland will have roughly 250 more acres and an RV park for only $1 billion more.

From what I can find, the theme parks would be very similar in size, Epic at around 110 acres and Heartland at 125.

So far, the campground is by far the biggest part of this and schedule to be complete first.

There's just a lot of this that isn't very clear at this point. especially in terms of how much is going to spend on what.

FYI the land acquisition costs were $7 million or slightly more than that if you include other associated costs. They have around 1700 acres, given that there’s an in owned tract in the middle of their acreage leads me to believe they aren’t finished but time will tell if they spend more. Either way, a drop in the $2 Billion bucket but also not insignificant.

Thanks for the info.

In context of $2 billion, I think it's okay to call 7 million insignificant. lol

Universal has the big rides and big IP names

Which is very significant.

They are pitching this as "Americana themed". Most people live within a days drive of an amusement park that incorporates at least some sort of Americana themes. In fact, this one will be 135 miles from one that's pretty much all Americana themed, too.

Big rides will probably be the most important factor for it to draw beyond the region / driving distance. I don't think we know the scale or mix of rides it will have at this point.

^^^^^^
The YouTube video linked upthread has quite a bit of reasonable speculation on the rides, based upon a scale model presented at the kickoff media event.

The one issue I take with the YouTuber has to do with assumptions he is making regarding financing. He is apparently taking it at face value that, essentially, Bicknell will be writing a $2 billion check and self-financing everything. He is saying this based on the fact that at the media event they stated that they are not looking for investors. As I have (also) pointed out upthread, nobody has said that there aren't ALREADY other (more silent) investors. They also haven't said that there would be no financing involved. They've only just played it close to the vest.

I think that the guy (Bicknell) is quite possibly a billionaire with a "B." Again, he owned over 1,000 Pizza Huts and sold them just a few years ago. He owns media companies, entertainment companies, film and television production companies, and on and on. He is real.

That said, none of that means he is writing a check for all of this. And he has a proven ability to finance big things. He has also already clearly spent millions to get to this point on this park plan. I think he is quite serious about this development. And again, I think he/they may have enough horsepower. But the idea that he is personally writing a check for $2 billion is a bit silly on the surface. It's not something he will have to do if he doesn't want to.

I believe it to be true that most very wealthy people use other people's money for risks, and they pocket the profits. Aside from a few of the more "in-your-face" rich people like Musk, Bezos, etc. they keep their personal wealth by avoiding risk while reaping the profits. They will borrow money or get investors. I'm not saying he won't put any money towards it, but let's for argument's sake say he is worth $4 billion, would he risk 50% of his net wealth on this? If he was worth $2 billion would he risk 100%? doubtful. If he was worth 10 billion (doubtful) even gambling 20% of your net wealth on one single thing is insane.

The logic for me says he will take investors, financing or already has both. It doesn't work, the company files bankruptcy and he didn't just force himself to move into one of the RV lots on the site.