The canoe sprints in Paris in 2024 are taking place at the same venue rowing uses. If they give us rowing, do the canoe sprints come too?

The canoe sprints are all 200m to 1000m, so if we get rowing because LA doesn't have a 2000m course, it stands to reason they'd probably have room for the shorter canoe sprints. But maybe it's better to have similar events in one location. Could be some overlap in athletes, staff, etc.

Yes, which is why those events are typically grouped; they were in Tokyo and will be in Paris. Even if LA was to build a whitewater facility, it would be more than 50 miles away from the rowing venue.

I'm very familiar with where LA28 is currently planning to do the rowing events. Because it's a long, narrow area in the Long Beach marina, I used to do open-water swim training for triathlon along with a bunch of other people in the sport. It's not only too short for Olympic events (max of 1,500m vs. the 2,000m every other Olympics has used), it's incredibly dense along the shore due to the demand by everyone wanting to live near water; no idea how they would put up stands for spectators. It's also nasty because of the heavy boat use and a jetty that keeps the water calm but also stops oil and other crap from being swept out to sea.

I coached triathlon for a long time and we would always have some people refuse to swim at the Long Beach marina because it was pretty disgusting.


For all these reasons, I know OKC is pushing for rowing, just no idea if it is going to happen.

The south-shore of the rowing course stretch is along my frequent running/biking route. I always hit the stretch (designated rowing stands in Pete's exhibit above) and wonder about the railyard to the south. Now that the area is obviously in transition, the railyard is starting to feel out of place.

The south-shore of the rowing course stretch is along my frequent running/biking route. I always hit the stretch (designated rowing stands in Pete's exhibit above) and wonder about the railyard to the south. Now that the area is obviously in transition, the railyard is starting to feel out of place.

good luck ever getting that moved ...

it took a threat of congress to get the railroads to sell the empty and abandoned yard between the GM building and tinker for the tinker expansion ..

The south-shore of the rowing course stretch is along my frequent running/biking route. I always hit the stretch (designated rowing stands in Pete's exhibit above) and wonder about the railyard to the south. Now that the area is obviously in transition, the railyard is starting to feel out of place.
Agree, 100%. But also, good luck getting a railroad to vacate a working rail yard. I mean, it DOES happen; just not very often.

Edit: haha BoulderSooner beat me to it.

The south-shore of the rowing course stretch is along my frequent running/biking route. I always hit the stretch (designated rowing stands in Pete's exhibit above) and wonder about the railyard to the south. Now that the area is obviously in transition, the railyard is starting to feel out of place.

A number of years ago, there was a very specific plan to erect a large screen to block the view of the railyard.

It didn't end up being funded and the idea was dropped, but if we got rowing, it might be revisited.

The screen was also a hoped-for wind break. That said, the river benefits from being far below the grade of those berms. Even on very windy days it’s typically much calmer than area lakes.

Lol for sure I get it! It would probably be a big pain to re-route that stretch and even if that were done there would likely be environmental considerations (Phase I and II hoops to jump through). It just sticks out like a sore thumb and acts as a prominent psychological boundary.

Here are some old renderings showing the proposed grandstand on the south shore near the finish line, with screens behind:

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/boathouse060723c.jpg


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/boathouse060723b.jpg


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/boathouse060723a.jpg


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/boathouse060723d.jpg

This may have been asked already, but if rowing were to come here also, any chance the city would go in and harden the shore of the river through this section? Or at least do something to better disguise the rip rap?

That railyard is an active switching yard for local industries along that line as well as for BNSF interchange traffic to Stillwater Central. Moving it would be very costly for local businesses who rely on that line and its cheap cost to interchange onto the Class 1 RR’s. Moving it somewhere else would probably double the switching fees and interchange costs.

That railyard is an active switching yard for local industries along that line as well as for BNSF interchange traffic to Stillwater Central. Moving it would be very costly for local businesses who rely on that line and its cheap cost to interchange onto the Class 1 RR’s. Moving it somewhere else would probably double the switching fees and interchange costs.

Yeah, no possibility of moving it.

Just screening the view. The City owns all the shoreline going back about 100-125 feet.

This may have been asked already, but if rowing were to come here also, any chance the city would go in and harden the shore of the river through this section? Or at least do something to better disguise the rip rap?

For better or worse the rip rap is consider a feature for the course, and it's job of clearing water out of the city during heavy flooding.

Though there has been a trend of lowering how high the rip rap goes, since their now is a normal water level in each of the basin regions, verses the original cover all the bank strategy they did decades ago. Where you basically can not see it in the park area north of the Chesapeake Boathouse, and half of the North Shore of the Boathouse district had it removed almost to the waterline, for a sidewalk and making the bank more amenable for visitors to view races from.

Multiple renderings for the new resort have showed possibly doing major changes to the south bank near it, some even had concepts for the north bank too. Granted some versions seemed unpractical and plausibly interfering with the river being use as a race course, either way those seemed to have been toned back over time. I am not sure where the most recent renderings could be found or if what is being built is still similar to those.

I have mentioned this before but I really wish they would build a boardwalk over the riprap. This would conceal them, and allow an even closer view of the river without compromising the water calming abilities of it. My biggest complaint is how ugly the river looks because of the rocks, I do appreciate their function though.

Rip rap is the chainlink fence of riverbanks: cheap and ugly. There are litterally dozens of other options that look better and work just as well in controlling wake

I have mentioned this before but I really wish they would build a boardwalk over the riprap. This would conceal them, and allow an even closer view of the river without compromising the water calming abilities of it. My biggest complaint is how ugly the river looks because of the rocks, I do appreciate their function though.

I couldn't remember who brought it up originally but it was the first thing I thought of for improving the look of the river when Pete dropped the Olympic news. Seems like a great and feasible idea.

Some issues about a boardwalk: 1) we are talking about 3 miles of shoreline just between the Lincoln/Central bridge and Eastern; and 2) it would have to have a railing because to cover the rocks, the walk would be several feet off the water.

It's a great idea and maybe they just do it between Lincoln and I-35, but it would be an expensive proposition and I believe that is why the Riversport Foundation has set a bunch of other priorities they want to fund. I've never seen this idea mentioned in even their most aspirational presentations, and they do a lot of them.

I've never seen this idea mentioned in even their most aspirational presentations, and they do a lot of them.

Would you mind sharing some of the "aspirational" ideas that they have presented in the past? I know most are not feasible but it is nice to dream haha

Would you mind sharing some of the "aspirational" ideas that they have presented in the past? I know most are not feasible but it is nice to dream haha

The renderings of the grandstand, screen and other improvements came from one of those presentations.

This is the latest masterplan:

https://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/boathouseupdate1.jpg

Would you mind sharing some of the "aspirational" ideas that they have presented in the past? I know most are not feasible but it is nice to dream haha

For years OU was shown as having their own boathouse (between UCO's and what is now the Whitewater building), though at some point OU seems to have shifted to building an on campus training facility and continue to use the small boathouse at Exchange ave in the next basin over. There seemed to be pretty complete plans and renderings done by the same designer who did the others in the area. With indications there was a fourth unnamed university that was considering another one too.
They even built the chevron retaining walls for both, eventually the whitewater center took the land the unidentified collage could have built a boathouse, the space where OU might have built there's now has tent structures on.

Stands on the south side, with a floating stage

Extend the terraced viewing area either to around the whitewater center or i35

Towers from the walkways on both sides of the waters edge to Lincoln bridge, shortening travel between the sides, it at least had stairs. Maybe there was an elevator too (my memory is fuzzy on this)

The windscreen along the length of the course, which also could be used for a projection surface

Lighting for all 2000m of the rowing course, 500m were built

A number of things were aspirational for years, but some variation got built even if not where or how was originally proposed.

Edit: I forgot there was a small window they were considering making sort trails (plausibly small docks or ramps too) to carry canoes from different basins around the dams for portage races (though presumably could be used if you wanted to travel the river more casually too), the race type implies you have to carry the canoe over land some minimum distance a couple times during the race. Though instead they set it up more as a loop, where the land portion has them carrying it on the wide sidewalk in front of the crowd.

^

Regarding OU, I was told they decided to stay in the modest facility down near the stockyards because that section of the river is far less congested than Boathouse Row, which has several teams training.

They have slowly made improvements to what they have, as well as the on-campus training facility you mentioned.

I think the idea of OU building on Boathouse Row has been completely dead for several years, although there were sexy renderings of it for some time.


And to be completely fair, what once was aspirational (finish line tower, most of the boathouses, the zip lines and slides, recreation equipment, the e-sports center, improvements to the pump track, connection of the river trails, surf and ski facilities, and even the whitewater facility itself) all started out as "dream big" ideas from the Boathouse Foundation (or more specifically Aubrey McClendon, Mike Knopp, and Rand Elliott).

It would take me a long time to list all the improvements that have been made over the last 15 years. They have been continuous for so long, I had forgotten most of it until I went back to read the beginning of the Boathouse Row thread, when there was only Chesapeake down there.

I just so happened to attend a rowing session at the Rio Olympics, mostly because the tickets were cheap and the link to Olympic rowing and OKC. The grandstand that Pete showed in the renderings look every bit as sufficient as the temporary grandstand that was in Rio. The one thing that we may not have room for is ticketing and staging areas. The rowing in Rio was held at a lake and I seem to recall a lot of temporary barriers around the lake at the rowing venue so people could not have an access to viewing the race except from the paid stands. I imagine something like that would be necessary along the river to some extent.

I wonder if they are considering holding the BMX events in Tulsa at the Hardesty National BMX Stadium?

https://www.usabmx.com/tracks/2011

I doubt it as LA probably has venues for it.

Oklahoman in on it now. https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2023/06/07/summer-olympics-2028-riversport-okc-venue-canoe-slalom-los-angeles/70297615007/

Another problem will be getting more upscale hotels. Those who go to these events aren't poor, and likely would want to stay in nice, top-notch hotels.

yes, hopefully the market will respond in kind. Would LOVE to see highrise Marriott, Hyatt, Westin, and Hilton added to downtown. ...

Looks like the Oklahoman let Pete do their reporting again without any attribution.

Shocking

The Oklahoman would make a decent pee pad for a puppy in potty training, then again I don’t think I would subject the poor creature to such reading material while using it.

It wasn't possible until the IOC changed the rules in 2019.

They added that flexibility specifically for situations like this: even the biggest cities have to absorb massive expenses to build facilities that have little to no value after the 2-week Games are over.

It's getting harder for cities to make the Games work financially, so they added this alternative.

LA's initial plan was to build a temporary facility for close to $100 million and then immediately tear it down. Through this change, this type of wasteful expense can be avoided and the Games will have a brighter future with more cities bidding.

That's not true, the 2008 Beijing Olympics had events in Hong Kong, Qingdao and Shanghai

That's not true, the 2008 Beijing Olympics had events in Hong Kong, Qingdao and Shanghai

Okay, it was possible but you had to go through a long process to get approval.

That is no longer the case.

Another problem will be getting more upscale hotels. Those who go to these events aren't poor, and likely would want to stay in nice, top-notch hotels.

I agree, OKANA will be online by then, but we still need another 500+ room hotel. OMNI can't handle it all, and we have to remember, this will be during the summer months, so those hotels will be already be somewhat booked. Would hate to see OKC get denied based on hotel shortage and lack of accommodations.

I agree, OKANA will be online by then, but we still need another 500+ room hotel. OMNI can't handle it all, and we have to remember, this will be during the summer months, so those hotel will be already booked. Would hate to see OKC get denied based on hotel shortage and lack of accommodations.

Dream Hotel would be done by then, and that's well in progress.

And we still have over 5 years.

^
Yes, so when officially announced, let's hope OKC gets in gear. This is a the same situation that happened with SLC when they hosted the 2002 Winter Olympics. People thought they couldn't handle it. But they got in gear quick. Their TRAX Light Rail system was developed specifically for their Winter Olympics, and its in still good use today. This was over 20 years ago. Hopefully OKC can see the glass half full.

I wonder if they are considering holding the BMX events in Tulsa at the Hardesty National BMX Stadium?

https://www.usabmx.com/tracks/2011

How in the world is there BMX but no softball?

Imagine the streetcar getting a special Olympic extension off the Bricktown loop that goes Reno to Lincoln, down into the Boathouse District. You could even have a special inside-stop underneath I-235 that can snipe the conglomerate of hotels that are east of Bricktown and the Interstate Exchange.

https://i.imgur.com/mDznvRu.png

How in the world is there BMX but no softball?

The hosting city has a lot to say about which of the newer sports to the Games get included.

Paris is doing break dancing for crying out loud.


Softball was in Tokyo mainly due to the Japanese obsession with it and baseball (which was also included).

Imagine the streetcar getting a special Olympic extension off the Bricktown loop that goes Reno to Lincoln, down into the Boathouse District. You could even have a special inside-stop underneath I-235 that can snipe the conglomerate of hotels that are east of Bricktown and the Interstate Exchange.

https://i.imgur.com/mDznvRu.png

They'll just do rubber-tired shuttles buses.

Super easy and efficient.

The hosting city has a lot to say about which of the newer sports to the Games get included.

Paris is doing break dancing for crying out loud.


Softball was in Tokyo mainly due to the Japanese obsession with it and baseball (which was also included).

BMX has been in the Olympics since 2008 and 2028 will be the sports 8th games.

Channel 4 just ran a story about this and stated “ As first reported by The Oklahoman and THEN OKC Talk …..”. SMH

Channel 4 just ran a story about this and stated “ As first reported by The Oklahoman and THEN OKC Talk …..”. SMH

Good grief.

And they are the best of the bunch.

Imagine the streetcar getting a special Olympic extension off the Bricktown loop that goes Reno to Lincoln, down into the Boathouse District. You could even have a special inside-stop underneath I-235 that can snipe the conglomerate of hotels that are east of Bricktown and the Interstate Exchange.

https://i.imgur.com/mDznvRu.png

While I do love this idea, there are a few things that would *greatly* complicate such an extension. First and foremost, this proposed streetcar extension would need to cross the Union Pacific railroad tracks on Reno. It's not unheard of for streetcar or light rail lines to cross freight rail lines at-grade, but there is often a lot of friction between the freight rail companies and the transit operators that make this really difficult. For instance, in Tampa, FL, the TECO Line streetcar line crosses an active CSX freight rail line just east of Tampa Union Station; when the TECO Line was built, CSX demanded the transit operator maintain a $500 million insurance bond in case of accidents. As I understand it, later that demand was dropped in favor of using CSX employees to pilot the streetcars through the crossing (paid for by the transit operator, of course) - and then later still that demand was dropped in favor of protecting the crossing with automatic signals. However, it took a long time to reach that point. I'd expect UP would likely push for similar restrictions to cross their line here.

In addition, the Lincoln Blvd bridge over I-40 would need to be assessed to determine if the current structure could support the weight of a streetcar - and to further complicate matters, I'm honestly unsure if our streetcars could negotiate the steep grade of the bridge without stalling out.

These issues are not insurmountable but the costs could add up quickly and make the line untenable. Adding a short, temporary bus circuit here might be the better option.

The OKCTalk Facebook post on this subject has received 650,000 views, and still counting.

Over 200,000 on Twitter. Over 100K on Instagram.

Probably end up reaching over 1 million people. Amazing.

That's not true, the 2008 Beijing Olympics had events in Hong Kong, Qingdao and Shanghai
Just for reference, During the Atlanta Olympics in 1996 events were held in multiple places from Washington D.C. all the way to Miami. I had soccer tickets for Orlando but wasn't able to go at the last minute. Even Birmingham, AL had events. What will be interesting is where the award ceremony is held.

18065

Just for reference, During the Atlanta Olympics in 1996 events were held in multiple places from Washington D.C. all the way to Miami. I had soccer tickets for Orlando but wasn't able to go at the last minute. Even Birmingham, AL had events. What will be interesting is where the award ceremony is held.

18065

Columbus Georgia hosted softball, and hardly anyone showed up, IIRC.

I suspect if OKC was able to get Softball there would be no trouble filling the stadium. In fact, they would probably need to add seats. Maybe the LA Olympic Committee will think about adding it. Softball is pretty popular in California.

If OKC gets Olympic whitewater events, could others follow? (https://www.okctalk.com/content.php?r=959-If-OKC-gets-Olympic-whitewater-events-could-others-follow)

As we reported earlier this week, Oklahoma City is in a strong position to land six canoe slalom events as part of the 2028 Summer Games hosted by Los Angeles.


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/olympics061123a.jpg


Final decisions are to be made by the organizing committee and International Olympic Committee on all sports and venues before the end of 2023 in order to allow for the considerable planning and construction that would be involved.

If Oklahoma City was indeed granted the canoe slalom events to be held in the Riversport Rapids Whitewater Center – and that is a very real possibility – the door may be opened to river-based events such as rowing and sprint kayak and canoe.


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/olympics061123b.jpg


As it stands, LA28 sought and received approval to host rowing events at the Long Beach Marina, even though constraints would require all 7 rowing competitions to be shortened from 2,000 meters -- long the Olympic and international standard – to 1,500 meters.

As we also reported, there has been much recent movement on the Oklahoma River to provide clear-span rowing for a full 2,000 meters, including plans for the complete replacement of the two I-35 bridges over the waterway. Renderings show suspension structures that would eliminate any columns in the river. It would also feature a viewing platform for river events.


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/olympics061123f.jpg
Planned I-35 bridges and viewing area

Also very recently, plans have been submitted to construct a pedestrian bridge across the Oklahoma River near the massive OKANA project that is under construction. The planning schedule shows that section of the river being drained later this year to facilitate construction on the bridge and a landing for Oklahoma River Cruises.

The plans for the pedestrian bridge also show a starting platform directly to the west for 2,000-meter rowing races.


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/olympics061123g.jpg
Planned pedestrian bridge and rowing start

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/olympics061123l.jpg
River boat landing



For the 2024 Summer Games in Paris, they will have a new whitewater facility constructed directly next to a river where rowing will be held. This is a very similar configuration that exists in Oklahoma City.

In Paris, they are planning to host 12,000 fans for the whitewater sessions and 10,000 for rowing. Each series of events, composed of multiple heats and then the final medal round, runs about a week to 10 days.

Since the only viable option in Los Angeles is to shorten all the rowing events, and since it would be held in a very dense area where it would be difficult to construct spectator seating, there may be an opportunity for Oklahoma City to take on rowing as well, with promises to complete the I-35 bridges and other work before 2028.

The Oklahoma River has ample space to place stands for river and whitewater events. And if Oklahoma City was awarded the six canoe slalom events there would be synergies and cost savings in adding rowing as well, as opposed to a sub-optimal location in Long Beach which is nowhere near related events.


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/olympics061123j.jpg
Proposed rowing grandstand

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/olympics061123d.jpg
View from grandstand


Local officials and the Olympic organizing committee will not speak about any of these possibilities until official announcements are made before the end of the year.

But be sure that Oklahoma City would love to have both canoe slalom and rowing and perhaps a few other river-based Olympic events as well. Most the facilities are already in place and due to planning that has been performed, the remainder could be completed well in advance of July 2028.

One other obvious possibility: What about softball? Oklahoma City is already the softball capital of the U.S. and Hall of Fame Stadium holds 12,000, far more than any other softball-specific stadium in the country. OKC has ample experience hosting large softball events such as the just-concluded Women's College World Series after another wildly successful run.

Softball has yet to be made officially part of the 2028 Games but is still a possibility. The Olympics added softball in 1996, with the U.S. winning that year, in 2000 in Sydney, and in 2004 in Athens. It had been absent since 2008 but then included in Tokyo for 2020. But softball will not be a part of the 2024 Paris Games.

Since it is unknown if Los Angeles will even include softball in the 2028 Summer Games, any opportunity for Oklahoma City to host would be a longshot.

Splitting events between cities and even countries is the new normal for Olympic Games. The evolution was necessary to help defray costs and avoid cities constructing expensive facilities that are then effectively thrown away, as would be the case if LA28 chose to keep the whitewater events in Southern California.

It may sound strange that a host city like Los Angeles would farm out events as far away as Oklahoma City, but there are solid economic and logistical reasons to do so. Case in point: for the Paris 2024 Summer Games, the surfing competition will take place in Tahiti.

It is anticipated Oklahoma City will know its exact role in the 2028 Games sometime this fall.


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/olympics061123e.jpg
Boathouse Row Masterplan


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/olympics061123c.jpg
Conceptual layout


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/olympics061123i.jpg
Rowing course; OKANA development in the foreground


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/olympics061123k.jpg
OKANA development

The hosting city has a lot to say about which of the newer sports to the Games get included.

Paris is doing break dancing for crying out loud.


Softball was in Tokyo mainly due to the Japanese obsession with it and baseball (which was also included).

That's sad. Break dancing is in but baseball is still not a permanent sport. Breakdancing isn't really a sport. Soon they'll have something like knife throwing or team bungee jumping......

Great reporting, Pete. It's a shame KFOR are total idiots (except Emily Sutton, of course).

would they end up having a mini Olympic Village situated near the venue(s)?

would they end up having a mini Olympic Village situated near the venue(s)?

Yes, I'm sure they would.

I bet they would construct a hotel (long in the plans) to house athletes and their related delegations.

That's sad. Break dancing is in but baseball is still not a permanent sport. Breakdancing isn't really a sport. Soon they'll have something like knife throwing or team bungee jumping......

They are trying to compete with the X Games and Redbull Events. On that note, I'm looking forward to watching Olympic Soapbox Derby racing.

Yes, I'm sure they would.

I bet they would construct a hotel (long in the plans) to house athletes and their related delegations.

Hopefully a decision from LA28 will allow us to get plans for hotel-housing accommodations planned well ahead of the event.

That's sad. Break dancing is in but baseball is still not a permanent sport. Breakdancing isn't really a sport. Soon they'll have something like knife throwing or team bungee jumping......

For a sport to be included in the Summer Olympics, it has to be widely practiced (in 75 countries and in at least 4 continents) and governed by an International Federation recognized by the IOC. The IOC decides which sports should be permanently included in the Olympics (for example, dropping baseball/softball after the 2008 games and adding golf and rugby as of the 2016 games). Starting with the 2020 Olympics, the IOC also allows the organizing committee for a specific games to propose additional sports to include in their edition of the games. This helps cities manage costs and also gives them an opportunity to showcase sports that might be more popular in their country. Tokyo 2020 added baseball/softball, karate, skateboarding, sport climbing, and surfing. Paris 2024 will include skateboarding, sport climbing, surfing, and breaking (breakdancing). It's possible that skateboarding, sport climbing, and surfing will be promoted to permanent sports before the 2028 Olympics. LA 2028 is considering cricket, breaking, baseball/softball, flag football, karate, kickboxing, lacrosse, squash, and motorsport, and we should find out which ones will be included after the IOC meets in October of this year.

I guess the question is, what is a sport, what is a game and what is a skill?

I guess the question is, what is a sport, what is a game and what is a skill?

They all fall under the umbrella of competition, but there has to be some way to establish who is better. I don't know how one could possibly score 'breaking' since I would consider it performance art and not a competition.

^^^^^^^
No differently than figure skating, ice dancing, gymnastics, diving, snowboarding and multiple other judged competitive disciplines.

Yeah, I'm not a real big fan of competitions that require a non-participant to decide the winner. I don't even watch the singing or dancing reality TV shows.

I agree with you that one. Not a fan of judged completions in general. Much prefer sports where the method of winning is to run faster than the other competitors, to jump higher, throw something further, score the ball (or puck, or whatever) more, to wrestle (or punch) the opponent into submission, etc.. Objective results rather than subjective.

All of that said, breakdancing is no different than the others I mentioned previously.

Except every single sport has judgment. Football, basketball, baseball and virtually everything else have results that can be completely determined by calls made by human officials. Replay reviews have helped but not eliminated this.

Even something seemingly straightforward as a foot race or swimming has humans deciding if there is a false start, and sometimes athletes get disqualified before they even get their chance. There is actually a lot of judgment in swimming regarding illegal strokes, turns, time spent underwater, etc.


Human judgment is part and parcel of any competition.