Just a general curiosity and enthusiasm question here, but IÂ’m wondering where weÂ’re at as a state for applications and efforts toward increasing services, destinations, and connections for the Flyer. WhoÂ’s working on what? Seems rather quiet lately on that front (especially with lots of other states making splashy inroads to taking advantage available funding).

The rumor is Amtrak want to get as many of the state funded routes upgraded and opened within 5 years (of 2022) because the thought it there is a clearer path to getting them done and it can happen with less money. I would assume we haven’t heard anything because they are having negotiations with BNSF who owns the track that might have to stay confidential until it’s agreed upon and that can be hard since the freight operators are notoriously anti passenger rail

They aren’t anti-passenger rail. BNSF in fact operates their own passenger rail services. They just don’t have any need to work with Amtrak on it. Suppose you had a private highway from Oklahoma City to Wichita, no one else can use it. Your trucks go 60 mph on it. Now a bus company wants to use your private highway for their 80 mph motor coaches. You have to pull your trucks off the side to allow the bus company to pass. That’s why they don’t like it. They coexist where possible but remember it is their private rails and their customers who are inconvenienced to accommodate Amtrak. That comes at a cost to them for trackage rights. Whether or not that fits the Amtrak budget is up to debate.

I don’t understand why people on this forum INSIST on everyone being wrong. You said “it’s not that they are anti passenger rail” then sentences later you say “that’s why they are anti passenger rail”. It is literally AGAINST the law for them to block the way for passenger service. I don’t understand why we automatically vouch for huge corporations that have been making record profit year after year on rails they didn’t even build, that got given to them by the government, and then lobbied to kill passenger service on

I don’t understand why people on this forum INSIST on everyone being wrong. You said “it’s not that they are anti passenger rail” then sentences later you say “that’s why they are anti passenger rail”. It is literally AGAINST the law for them to block the way for passenger service. I don’t understand why we automatically vouch for huge corporations that have been making record profit year after year on rails they didn’t even build, that got given to them by the government, and then lobbied to kill passenger service on

They aren’t anti passenger rail. In fact the Raton Pass is owned, maintained, and dispatched by BNSF - yet they don’t operate any freight on it. Very likely they are losing money to maintain that subdivision and tunnel for 2 Amtrak trains a day. In Chicago they operate their own passenger rail service. Across the country they share trackage rights with Amtrak. They accommodate them when and where it makes sense for them to do so. But just because they have rails doesn’t mean Amtrak has an automatic right to use them. It’s literally their private property, they are probably going to want to use it for their core business first. Hence they negotiate with Amtrak when it is possible to accommodate them without major disruptions to their own business. And that access usually comes at a cost.

They aren’t anti passenger rail. In fact the Raton Pass is owned, maintained, and dispatched by BNSF - yet they don’t operate any freight on it. Very likely they are losing money to maintain that subdivision and tunnel for 2 Amtrak trains a day. In Chicago they operate their own passenger rail service. Across the country they share trackage rights with Amtrak. They accommodate them when and where it makes sense for them to do so. But just because they have rails doesn’t mean Amtrak has an automatic right to use them. It’s literally their private property, they are probably going to want to use it for their core business first. Hence they negotiate with Amtrak when it is possible to accommodate them without major disruptions to their own business. And that access usually comes at a cost.

I don’t understand how a person as smart as you seem to be can’t seem to tell the difference between suburban rail and intercity rail. Weird. But based on UNITED STATES LAW they have to give way to passenger rail. Once again surprised a genius doesn’t know that. If you did know about it you would know that the freight railroads will not rebuild or replace sidings that are too small for their trains because they technically don’t have to and the government will not enforce a rule that forces them to yield because the infrastructure is not there. You mentioned highways. Why aren’t our highways private? Because of exactly what you said. Someone would by them and block people from using it. Why are rails not treated the same and built by the state and federal governments?

Low speed rail sucks-FACT
Flying cars rule- FACT
Bears beat Battlestar Galactica.

They aren’t anti passenger rail. In fact the Raton Pass is owned, maintained, and dispatched by BNSF - yet they don’t operate any freight on it. Very likely they are losing money to maintain that subdivision and tunnel for 2 Amtrak trains a day. In Chicago they operate their own passenger rail service. Across the country they share trackage rights with Amtrak. They accommodate them when and where it makes sense for them to do so. But just because they have rails doesn’t mean Amtrak has an automatic right to use them. It’s literally their private property, they are probably going to want to use it for their core business first. Hence they negotiate with Amtrak when it is possible to accommodate them without major disruptions to their own business. And that access usually comes at a cost.

BNSF does not run their own passenger rail service in Chicago. They are contracted with - and operate commuter rail service on behalf of - Metra, the commuter rail division of the regional transit authority for the greater Chicagoland area. Metra's BNSF line operates between Chicago Union Station in downtown and the western suburb of Aurora.

Also, USSOklahoma is correct - Federal law does require that passenger trains be given preference over freight rail anywhere that Amtrak operates. For new lines of service, Amtrak will negotiate with rail carriers - but if they are unable to come to an agreement, the Surface Transportation Board is authorized to force the rail carrier to allow Amtrak access to their system if it is deemed necessary, per 49 U.S. Code § 24308.

The latest news I have seen on Heartland Flyer expansion was from October of last year, where ODOT, KDOT, and TxDOT sent a joint letter to the US Department of Transportation and the Federal Railroad Administration formally requesting the line's inclusion in the federal Corridor Identification and Development Plan under Biden's big infrastructure bill that was signed into law in 2021. This would enable federal funding for the expansion. As of December, this request is still working it's way through the system. See https://texasrailadvocates.org/post/tx-ok-ks-ask-us-dot-and-fra-to-expand-heartland-flyer-corridor and https://texasrailadvocates.org/post/tx-ok-ks-heartland-flyer-corridor-designation-request-awaits-fed-approval for more info on that letter.

Also, USSOklahoma is correct - Federal law does require that passenger trains be given preference over freight rail anywhere that Amtrak operates. For new lines of service, Amtrak will negotiate with rail carriers - but if they are unable to come to an agreement, the Surface Transportation Board is authorized to force the rail carrier to allow Amtrak access to their system if it is deemed necessary, per 49 U.S. Code § 24308.
That federal law must apply only to Amtrak and not all passenger rail service. I took the Rocky Mountaineer passenger rail from Moab, Utah to Denver in 2021. We definitely had to pull onto a siding for any freight train. Amtrak does operate on that route.

I don’t understand how a person as smart as you seem to be can’t seem to tell the difference between suburban rail and intercity rail. Weird. But based on UNITED STATES LAW they have to give way to passenger rail. Once again surprised a genius doesn’t know that. If you did know about it you would know that the freight railroads will not rebuild or replace sidings that are too small for their trains because they technically don’t have to and the government will not enforce a rule that forces them to yield because the infrastructure is not there. You mentioned highways. Why aren’t our highways private? Because of exactly what you said. Someone would by them and block people from using it. Why are rails not treated the same and built by the state and federal governments?

Lets not get in to name calling. Doing that just to try to pop up your own side, is not constructive and doesn't actually do anything other than make you look bad (and that you dont have evidence to support your side).

But we do have this. It's called the Turnpike. OTA is about as private as roads get where you have to pay to use them. There are alternate routes you can take. They're just not as fast.

If a rail company used anything other than private funds to lay their line, then they should be subject to control since the public has an "interest' there. But if they bought the rights of way and paid out of their own pocket to lay down the rail, then common capitalism says that the government should stay out of the conversation.

Rail already has more rights than they really should. They're protected extremely well from anyone that tries to make them be good partners (like not blocking crossings, or shutting the F up with their horns while in town). Not to mention that they always seem to be in the way. But because they bought that land when it wasn't "in town", they are protected (the whole we were here first argument). I'd personally rather see the yards in Moore and near GM ripped out and moved. But it's never gonna happen.

And as for passenger rail, well it's the same old chicken/egg thing. But unless there's a public/private partnership in this, then it will never happen. No private company is going to buy the rights and build a line across the country for high speed rail, even Musk. They have to partner with the government to do it, which brings a whole other level of involvement (and rightfully so). You can't tell me X number of people will use it when it's not even a concept yet. It would be an extremely expensive guessing game. And if it fails, we're all out the money. My magic 8 ball says that the short haul folks will probably continue to drive their own cars. And that the long haulers will continue to fly since it's so much faster. Rent a car or grab an Uber on the other end and you don't have to worry about if there's good public transportation on the other end.

Other places where this works well, the distances are in that middle space where it's a wash between flight/car/train. The Eurozone for example. The US is just not laid out that way.

Other places where this works well, the distances are in that middle space where it's a wash between flight/car/train. The Eurozone for example. The US is just not laid out that way.

The entire point of the Amtrak Connects US plan is to identify these corridors where overall travel time is a wash and prioritize implementation of service. Many such corridors have been identified that will work *today*, including expanded service on the Heartland Flyer corridor.

But we do have this. It's called the Turnpike. OTA is about as private as roads get where you have to pay to use them. .

By that standard, I guess it's sorta private. The profits are private, but it was created by statute, the legislature picks where the projects go, and the governor is the top officer that can remove any board member anytime they want. Members of the authority are not paid, but I'm not sure if they, the legislature, or the governor are barred from investing. So, it may resemble a private entity more so than other toll roads (I honestly don't know how they work anywhere else), it's still kind of a stretch to use the word "private" to describe it.

The OTA justifies its existence on its website based on inadequate funding of ODOT. Which, in a sense, just means it's a choice by the government to convert public utility / infrastructure services to a profit center for (mostly?) private investors.


And as for passenger rail, well it's the same old chicken/egg thing. But unless there's a public/private partnership in this, then it will never happen. No private company is going to buy the rights and build a line across the country for high speed rail, even Musk. They have to partner with the government to do it, which brings a whole other level of involvement (and rightfully so).

It's definitely clear that a private organization almost always needs to partner with government to produce large scale services and infrastructure in order to produce a positive return for private investors.

I just wish Heartland Flyer ran twice a day each direction. I often want to come up for a Thunder game and have to come an entire day early because the train arrives at 9:30pm. It would be so much more viable with both mid-day and evening arrivals.

Also, I really wish Amtrak would add a Denton/Sanger stop in between Gainesville and Fort Worth. I live in Denton and I am almost exactly a 45 minute drive from each stop even though the train runs pretty close to Denton. I feel like it's a huge lost opportunity. If you have to go that far to get to a station then people just might as well drive to OKC.

It'd have to be a stop in Sanger as the rail shoots under I35 between there and Denton and goes to Ft Worth.

It'd have to be a stop in Sanger as the rail shoots under I35 between there and Denton and goes to Ft Worth.

There is a spur that sits just on the west side of I-35 in Denton. Looks like enough space for a train station

I just wish Heartland Flyer ran twice a day each direction. I often want to come up for a Thunder game and have to come an entire day early because the train arrives at 9:30pm. It would be so much more viable with both mid-day and evening arrivals.

Also, I really wish Amtrak would add a Denton/Sanger stop in between Gainesville and Fort Worth. I live in Denton and I am almost exactly a 45 minute drive from each stop even though the train runs pretty close to Denton. I feel like it's a huge lost opportunity. If you have to go that far to get to a station then people just might as well drive to OKC.

If Amtrak is able to fully implement their expansion plans for the Heartland Flyer, there will be 3x daily service between OKC and DFW. Expansion plans here: https://www.amtrakconnectsus.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Heartland-Flyer-Extension-Fact-Sheet-FINAL-1.pdf

If Amtrak is able to fully implement their expansion plans for the Heartland Flyer, there will be 3x daily service between OKC and DFW. Expansion plans here: https://www.amtrakconnectsus.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Heartland-Flyer-Extension-Fact-Sheet-FINAL-1.pdf

Let’s hope this can be done. For those that remember, the Lone Star (Amtrak post ATSF) was a very well used train, all the way to Chicago. Not only did I ride it, after hiring out on the SF, got to ‘deadhead’ several times from Purcell to Arkansas City. You can’t beat getting paid to ride a passenger train! The train was always packed.

I just wish Heartland Flyer ran twice a day each direction. I often want to come up for a Thunder game and have to come an entire day early because the train arrives at 9:30pm. It would be so much more viable with both mid-day and evening arrivals.

Also, I really wish Amtrak would add a Denton/Sanger stop in between Gainesville and Fort Worth. I live in Denton and I am almost exactly a 45 minute drive from each stop even though the train runs pretty close to Denton. I feel like it's a huge lost opportunity. If you have to go that far to get to a station then people just might as well drive to OKC.

Every stop you make, makes it take longer to get from point A to point B. Why not stop at the casino and Ardmore and Pauls Valley?

OK Denton, that can make sense because it's where the 35's go together and it's the last big stop on the north side of town. But really the best way to get ridership here is to make it as much of an "express" as possible and minimize all these stops. The overwhelming majority of the traffic is from the main end stops. Anyone that gets on in Ardmore can drive to Ft Worth faster than the train is going to get them there.

^ The Flyer currently has scheduled stops in PV and Ardmore. Thackerville is currently being proposed.

Every stop you make, makes it take longer to get from point A to point B. Why not stop at the casino and Ardmore and Pauls Valley?

OK Denton, that can make sense because it's where the 35's go together and it's the last big stop on the north side of town. But really the best way to get ridership here is to make it as much of an "express" as possible and minimize all these stops. The overwhelming majority of the traffic is from the main end stops. Anyone that gets on in Ardmore can drive to Ft Worth faster than the train is going to get them there.

Local traffic still accounts for a decent portion of ridership - and Ardmore aside, these stops don't really account for any materially significant delay in travel time. There's only 5 intermediate stops currently. Ardmore is typically scheduled for a 5-10min dwell time for "station work", but all other intermediate stops are just long enough for passengers to embark/disembark. I looked at the numbers on this a while back in the main Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR) (https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=37949) thread.

Actually, Pete/Martin, could we maybe merge this thread with the main passenger rail updates thread? These are both basically the same topic.

Local traffic still accounts for a decent portion of ridership - and Ardmore aside, these stops don't really account for any materially significant delay in travel time. There's only 5 intermediate stops currently. Ardmore is typically scheduled for a 5-10min dwell time for "station work", but all other intermediate stops are just long enough for passengers to embark/disembark. I looked at the numbers on this a while back in the main Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR) (https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=37949) thread.

Actually, Pete/Martin, could we maybe merge this thread with the main passenger rail updates thread? These are both basically the same topic.

You just made my argument for me.

I can drive this in 3 hours. With those stops, you just added an hour to the train ride, thus eliminating any possibility of the train beating my car. That's exactly what i'm saying can't happen, or it will never be worth it's cost.

You just made my argument for me.

I can drive this in 3 hours. With those stops, you just added an hour to the train ride, thus eliminating any possibility of the train beating my car. That's exactly what i'm saying can't happen, or it will never be worth it's cost.

Nope, I didn't. Taking the train does not need to be faster than driving your car for the service to be competitive. That said, it also shouldn't take an inordinate amount of time, either, and Amtrak's timetable lists the trip as taking just shy of 4 hours to downtown Ft Worth. That's how much time I budget for every time I drive down there anyway - and that combined with the amenities of being able to relax, work, and eat on board while someone else does the driving for you is what makes it competitive. Eliminating these intermediate stops that account for something like 20% of annual ridership (if I'm recalling correctly) would NOT improve the train and would only shave off maybe 20 minutes of travel time, at most. What holds the service back is the single round trip a day with less convenient departure and arrival times - especially for those who may want to use the train to come up here from DFW. Additional round trip frequencies will do much to help in this regard.

Nope, I didn't. Taking the train does not need to be faster than driving your car for the service to be competitive. That said, it also shouldn't take an inordinate amount of time, either, and Amtrak's timetable lists the trip as taking just shy of 4 hours to downtown Ft Worth. That's how much time I budget for every time I drive down there anyway - and that combined with the amenities of being able to relax, work, and eat on board while someone else does the driving for you is what makes it competitive. Eliminating these intermediate stops that account for something like 20% of annual ridership (if I'm recalling correctly) would NOT improve the train and would only shave off maybe 20 minutes of travel time, at most. What holds the service back is the single round trip a day with less convenient departure and arrival times - especially for those who may want to use the train to come up here from DFW. Additional round trip frequencies will do much to help in this regard.

I was about to reply with this, just doubling the frequency would make better for my family. Maybe the ability to take the morning train and spend a couple of hours in D-FW then taking the evening train back would mean more trips from us.

I was about to reply with this, just doubling the frequency would make better for my family. Maybe the ability to take the morning train and spend a couple of hours in D-FW then taking the evening train back would mean more trips from us.

To be fair, you can already do exactly that from OKC - on it's current schedule, Amtrak's Heartland Flyer departs Santa Fe Station (OKC) at 8:25 am and arrives at Fort Worth Central Station (FTW) by 12:25 pm. The return trip departs FTW at 5:25 pm and arrives back in OKC by 9:25 pm. This gives you about five hours in the afternoon to explore and do stuff in Fort Worth before the return trip to OKC. If you want to venture beyond Fort Worth, two commuter rail services have hourly departures from the same station - the Trinity Railway Express (https://trinityrailwayexpress.org/) (TRE) toward Dallas or the TEXRail (https://ridetrinitymetro.org/texrail-schedule/) toward Grapevine/DFW Airport. Both commuter services currently have departures within 20 minutes of arriving at FTW, but the TRE transfer is pretty tight (scheduled for 12:32 pm) so be prepared to move quickly if going that route - or wait for the 1:32 pm departure (especially if the Heartland Flyer encounters any delays). Ticketing for both TRE and TEXRail is done by kiosks on the station platform or via the GoPass mobile app. Whether purchased from a kiosk or the GoPass app, the "Regional" fare costs $12 per person (as of the time of writing) and will get you full, unlimited access to all public transit services across the DFW metro on the day of purchase; this fare is required to go all the way to Dallas from FTW. If you're not going that far, cheaper "local" fares are available, both in single-ride and multi-ride options (for more info, see https://ridetrinitymetro.org/tickets/)

Increased frequencies on the Heartland Flyer will eventually allow travelers from DFW to do the same sort of day trip here.

For longer journeys via rail, you can also transfer to Amtrak's Texas Eagle (https://www.amtrak.com/texas-eagle-train) in FTW; the westbound train (train 21/421) towards Austin, San Antonio, and LA departs FTW at 2:10pm, and the eastbound train (train 22/422) towards Dallas, Little Rock, St Louis, and Chicago departs FTW at 2:20pm.

Most of the stops take 2-3 minutes. They’re very quick. They do a 5 minute stop in Ardmore. All the stops are probably 15 minutes total. A stop in Sanger wouldn’t make hardly any difference.

Nope, I didn't. Taking the train does not need to be faster than driving your car for the service to be competitive. That said, it also shouldn't take an inordinate amount of time, either, and Amtrak's timetable lists the trip as taking just shy of 4 hours to downtown Ft Worth. That's how much time I budget for every time I drive down there anyway - and that combined with the amenities of being able to relax, work, and eat on board while someone else does the driving for you is what makes it competitive. Eliminating these intermediate stops that account for something like 20% of annual ridership (if I'm recalling correctly) would NOT improve the train and would only shave off maybe 20 minutes of travel time, at most. What holds the service back is the single round trip a day with less convenient departure and arrival times - especially for those who may want to use the train to come up here from DFW. Additional round trip frequencies will do much to help in this regard.

Obviously I very strongly disagree with that. Speed and convenience are what has to happen for an option to win over another. Otherwise, here in OKC we would all use Embark, and in NYC, everyone would drive. I have to be able to beat a car in speed and convenience for any MEANINGFUL portion of the population to make use of it. Enthusiasts are not that. For one thing, it goes to Ft Worth, so it's already got a ding against it. North Dallas (not downtown or anything like that) is where people go in Dallas most of the time. Frisco/The Colony/etc. If i dont have transportation once I get there, then the whole deal is off anyway. I'm not walking 5-10 miles once I get there. That infrastructure does not exist in the burb world of either Ft Worth or Dallas. Yes maybe I get a crappy bus schedule at bad hours and go somewhere or pay for an expensive Uber, but the bus takes time and will still only get me so far. And people are lazy and dont walk in the US. The Uber is gonna cost me both ways, more than it really should. So what's my reason for riding this train? What's my benefit, other than to say, "oooo, i rode a slow train between OKC and Ft Worth".

Now if you get that train down there in an hour, well you're giving me my time back. That's a winner. But if you still take 3 hours and i have to work out transportation when i get there, well you lost before you started. And if that wasn't the case, you would see a heck of a lot more people using it. My argument is made every single day that the Heartland isn't packed like an India commuter.

Obviously I very strongly disagree with that. Speed and convenience are what has to happen for an option to win over another. Otherwise, here in OKC we would all use Embark, and in NYC, everyone would drive. I have to be able to beat a car in speed and convenience for any MEANINGFUL portion of the population to make use of it. Enthusiasts are not that. For one thing, it goes to Ft Worth, so it's already got a ding against it. North Dallas (not downtown or anything like that) is where people go in Dallas most of the time. Frisco/The Colony/etc. If i dont have transportation once I get there, then the whole deal is off anyway. I'm not walking 5-10 miles once I get there. That infrastructure does not exist in the burb world of either Ft Worth or Dallas. Yes maybe I get a crappy bus schedule at bad hours and go somewhere or pay for an expensive Uber, but the bus takes time and will still only get me so far. And people are lazy and dont walk in the US. The Uber is gonna cost me both ways, more than it really should. So what's my reason for riding this train? What's my benefit, other than to say, "oooo, i rode a slow train between OKC and Ft Worth".

Now if you get that train down there in an hour, well you're giving me my time back. That's a winner. But if you still take 3 hours and i have to work out transportation when i get there, well you lost before you started. And if that wasn't the case, you would see a heck of a lot more people using it. My argument is made every single day that the Heartland isn't packed like an India commuter.

I won't argue with you if it doesn't work for you - you're right that there are a lot of factors involved in whether or not the train is useful for you and it sounds like your desired destinations in the DFW metroplex aren't areas that you can get to easily via Amtrak/TRE/DART. That's completely understandable. Most of my trips down to DFW in the past several years have been to go to events like conventions and concerts being held in and around downtown Dallas, so it has worked very well for me. DART works super well to get around downtown Dallas too. I've even connected with DART light rail services from Dallas to visit friends in Plano and Carrollton... but like I said, I know that doesn't work for everyone, because everyone's needs are different and not all destinations are easy to get to via rail. Heck, I've certainly made the drive myself sometimes when my destination just wasn't feasible to get to by rail, like going to IKEA. I'm also certainly not saying that I wouldn't welcome faster service to our neighbor to the south, but the realities of the equipment, infrastructure, and operational schedule for the Heartland Flyer just don't make that feasible at the current time - the train already goes as fast as it's allowed to go on the tracks we've got.

The point is, while I think I understand your experience and where you're coming from, I believe your metrics for success are too narrow. The train will not provide value for all, but that doesn't mean it's not a worthwhile endeavor - it already provides value for many who may not wish to drive themselves (or may not be able to in the first place) and there have been numerous occasions where the train is full or nearly so. The speed of the train isn't hugely different than driving, either. The comparison to Embark isn't apt to me, because I could take the bus to work if I really wanted to (stops are conveniently very close to both my home and office) but it turns a 20 minute commute into an hour commute. The Heartland Flyer isn't three times slower than driving lol. And when you're not driving yourself, traveling anywhere even by airplane is still going to require figuring out local transportation at your destination, too, so that isn't a strike against the train in my book. But the biggest things holding the Heartland Flyer back today are that it only does one round trip a day, and that it doesn't connect all the way through Wichita to the Southwest Chief in Newton. The current schedule is really only convenient for people from OKC to visit DFW or to connect with the Texas Eagle for longer journeys. Even just adding one more round trip a day - a second northbound morning train that leaves FTW around the same time that the southbound morning train leaves OKC, and the same in the evening - would significantly increase ridership and allow visitors from DFW to day trip up here to OKC.

Now if you get that train down there in an hour, well you're giving me my time back. That's a winner. But if you still take 3 hours and i have to work out transportation when i get there, well you lost before you started. And if that wasn't the case, you would see a heck of a lot more people using it. My argument is made every single day that the Heartland isn't packed like an India commuter.

There's a lot in your post I disagree with, but when I take the train, I am able to work the entire time for 4 hours. When I drive, I work none of the time. There's your time back.

Every stop you make, makes it take longer to get from point A to point B. Why not stop at the casino and Ardmore and Pauls Valley?

OK Denton, that can make sense because it's where the 35's go together and it's the last big stop on the north side of town. But really the best way to get ridership here is to make it as much of an "express" as possible and minimize all these stops. The overwhelming majority of the traffic is from the main end stops. Anyone that gets on in Ardmore can drive to Ft Worth faster than the train is going to get them there.

One way to compromise on this would be to have on-demand stops. For instance, a stop at say Thakerville Winston World Casino would only stop if there were pax to get on or off. This could be implemented at several stops along the route between FTW and OKC to help speed up the train. And, with 3 round trips in the works, we could make 1 train be a true Express train; OKC-FTW and FTW-OKC non-stop (perhaps the noon-lunch timing).

Here's my thoughts:

7:30am-11am OKC-FTW and FTW-OKC
11:30am-1pm OKC-FTW and FTW-OKC nonstop
9pm-12am OKC-FTW and FTW-OKC

These would run M-Sat, Sun would not use the lunch nonstop. This would require 2 trainsets to work but would give us great service. With the KS extensions it would look like:

12:30am-3:30am OKC-Newton via Wichita
4:00am-7:00am Newton-OKC via Wichita

and would connect trains to/from Kc and on to/from Chicago.

This would be fantastic service and give us somewhat of HSR with the express runs.

That's a really good idea, Hot Rod. They should know if there are passengers to get on and off with their manifest. I guess in the old days they HAD to stop but today they don't. Great observation. That would speed things up.

There's a lot in your post I disagree with, but when I take the train, I am able to work the entire time for 4 hours. When I drive, I work none of the time. There's your time back.

This 1 million percent. If there was a train between downtown OKC and downtown Tulsa that took 2.0 - 2.5 hours, I would take it in a heartbeat and frequently. If it ran 2-3 times per day I could still plan to be in town when I needed to and could work or relax for the 2-2.5 hours instead of driving for 1.5. Sounds like a great option.

My dream scenario would be to be able to get on a train in Tulsa and take it to downtown OKC within 2 hours and then get on a 25 min OKC Metro commuter rail train to Norman for an OU football/basketball game. Not having to fight gameday traffic and find parking would be a game changer for many people.

Thunder games would be fun too but there would need to be a late train back to Tulsa.

Well you better tell them not to stop at Sapulpa, Bristow, Stroud, and Chandler on the way.

That also did make exactly my argument. You made it more convenient for yourself in that scenario. Of course that's a win. Are they going to build that? Well it's got as much of a chance as anything else. Even if it didn't beat on the exact time, it beat your time to destination or got so close that it was a wash....BUT since you didn't have to park/walk in Norman (assuming they build a station near campus...and i think that likely), it actually did beat it. I think that's the perfect example of when it would work well.....but keep in mind that this is a VERY SPECIFIC use-case. For the Norman use, it's only 5-6 times a year so that won't pay for the rest of the year. That whole chicken/egg thing I think falls apart in OKC commuter rail for sustainability, but we've beat that horse dead here. Thunder games do happen more often so you'll get a more frequent opportunity there. And downtown to downtown works in this case.

You made it more convenient for yourself in that scenario.

but you are the one who keeps making it inconvenient for YOU in every scenario. so fine, you won't ever use it. but that doesn't mean that it is unfeasible for others, just because it doesn't meet your use case.

Well you better tell them not to stop at Sapulpa, Bristow, Stroud, and Chandler on the way.

That also did make exactly my argument. You made it more convenient for yourself in that scenario. Of course that's a win. Are they going to build that? Well it's got as much of a chance as anything else. Even if it didn't beat on the exact time, it beat your time to destination or got so close that it was a wash....BUT since you didn't have to park/walk in Norman (assuming they build a station near campus...and i think that likely), it actually did beat it. I think that's the perfect example of when it would work well.....but keep in mind that this is a VERY SPECIFIC use-case. For the Norman use, it's only 5-6 times a year so that won't pay for the rest of the year. That whole chicken/egg thing I think falls apart in OKC commuter rail for sustainability, but we've beat that horse dead here. Thunder games do happen more often so you'll get a more frequent opportunity there. And downtown to downtown works in this case.

You vastly underestimate the amount of people who travel either way on the turnpike everyday that would be interested in it as an option. There may not be enough currently to make someone take the plunge and do it without significant federal funding but there would be decent ridership if the trip was around 2 hours.

I wouldn't mind seeing a company like Brightline in Florida, shoot I would be happy to see them start up the service between OKC -- TULSA -- KC

You vastly underestimate the amount of people who travel either way on the turnpike everyday that would be interested in it as an option. There may not be enough currently to make someone take the plunge and do it without significant federal funding but there would be decent ridership if the trip was around 2 hours.

If that's the case, why don't we have it yet? It's been talked about in Oklahoma since the 90's. They barely have the pool lots. If there was such a demand, someone would be making money on this already. You may not agree with me, but so far the players required, seem to. Commuter rail has had most communities pull out. There's still no OKC/TUL line. The Heartland Flyer continues to require a subsidy to stay in operation. There's a lot of evidence that shows i'm not just full of it guys.....

You vastly underestimate the amount of people who travel either way on the turnpike everyday that would be interested in it as an option. There may not be enough currently to make someone take the plunge and do it without significant federal funding but there would be decent ridership if the trip was around 2 hours.

While I'm 100% in support of a train to Tulsa, reasonable trip times may end up being a big hurdle to success. The Stillwater Central Railroad owns and operates this line, known as the Sooner Subdivision, and currently maintains the line to FRA Class III conditions - allowing a maximum permissible speed of 60mph for passenger trains. Only about 120 track miles separate downtown Tulsa from downtown OKC, however the Sooner Sub contains quite a few curves that require trains to slow down so they can't operate at maximum speed across the majority of the route - unlike BNSF's Red Rock Subdivision line that the Heartland Flyer uses to get to Fort Worth.

In 1959, predecessor railroad St. Louis–San Francisco Railway - a.k.a. the Frisco - operated two trains over this route: the Will Rogers (which made regular stops in Tulsa, Sapulpa, Bristow, Chandler, and OKC, with additional intermediate whistle stops on request only) and the Meteor (which was an express train with whistle stops only in Sapulpa, Bristow, and Chandler). The Will Rogers was scheduled to take 3 hours to complete the trip from downtown to downtown, and the Meteor only saved 10 minutes off that according to this old Frisco timetable (http://streamlinermemories.info/South/Frisco59TT.pdf) (see "Table 6" on page 10 of that PDF) - making for an average speed of between 40-45mph.

Testing with modern equipment would be needed to see what trip times would actually look like under today's conditions... but based on what I've found, I think it's likely that the route would require expensive upgrades to track condition and straightening to bypass slow curves in order to cut trip times down. Maybe a real railroader like Mott has some real insight on what this line would need to make sure one-way trips aren't 3 hours. I mean, I personally am still willing to ride a 3 hour train to Tulsa, but I am fairly sure I'm in the minority there - I agree with you that it probably needs to be in the neighborhood of 2 hours to be a real success.

If that's the case, why don't we have it yet? It's been talked about in Oklahoma since the 90's. They barely have the pool lots. If there was such a demand, someone would be making money on this already. You may not agree with me, but so far the players required, seem to. Commuter rail has had most communities pull out. There's still no OKC/TUL line. The Heartland Flyer continues to require a subsidy to stay in operation. There's a lot of evidence that shows i'm not just full of it guys.....

For all three of these, the barriers to entry are high. The RTA will need to implement an additional tax to fund operations, and building out actual service will very likely require double-tracking multiple segments of the Edmond-Norman corridor to ensure consistent, timely service. For the "Eastern Flyer" to Tulsa, track improvements to the line - as well as an additional connector track to get trains up to the platform at Santa Fe Station in OKC - will be required. For the Heartland Flyer, additional frequencies are needed to make the service convenient for all in both directions, instead of just for people looking to go down to DFW for a day or two. That requires at least one additional trainset. This is not a complete list, and these problems are not insurmountable, but solutions for all are expensive and the capital hasn't been there to make it happen yet. The federal funding under the Biden infrastructure bill that Amtrak wants to use for expansion will do much to improve the Heartland Flyer's service, and that should hopefully have some spillover effects on the planned commuter rail service too.

There's some interesting stuff here if you don't mind digging through PDFs for a while: https://fralongdistancerailstudy.org/meeting-materials/.

While I'm 100% in support of a train to Tulsa, reasonable trip times may end up being a big hurdle to success. The Stillwater Central Railroad owns and operates this line, known as the Sooner Subdivision, and currently maintains the line to FRA Class III conditions - allowing a maximum permissible speed of 60mph for passenger trains. Only about 120 track miles separate downtown Tulsa from downtown OKC, however the Sooner Sub contains quite a few curves that require trains to slow down so they can't operate at maximum speed across the majority of the route - unlike BNSF's Red Rock Subdivision line that the Heartland Flyer uses to get to Fort Worth.

In 1959, predecessor railroad St. Louis–San Francisco Railway - a.k.a. the Frisco - operated two trains over this route: the Will Rogers (which made regular stops in Tulsa, Sapulpa, Bristow, Chandler, and OKC, with additional intermediate whistle stops on request only) and the Meteor (which was an express train with whistle stops only in Sapulpa, Bristow, and Chandler). The Will Rogers was scheduled to take 3 hours to complete the trip from downtown to downtown, and the Meteor only saved 10 minutes off that according to this old Frisco timetable (http://streamlinermemories.info/South/Frisco59TT.pdf) (see "Table 6" on page 10 of that PDF) - making for an average speed of between 40-45mph.

Testing with modern equipment would be needed to see what trip times would actually look like under today's conditions... but based on what I've found, I think it's likely that the route would require expensive upgrades to track condition and straightening to bypass slow curves in order to cut trip times down. Maybe a real railroader like Mott has some real insight on what this line would need to make sure one-way trips aren't 3 hours. I mean, I personally am still willing to ride a 3 hour train to Tulsa, but I am fairly sure I'm in the minority there - I agree with you that it probably needs to be in the neighborhood of 2 hours to be a real success.


A few points, from 38 years on theATSF/BNSF, worked in the north yard (Stillwater Central). The line from OKC to Tulsa was 20 mph, and even if the SLWC has upgraded it any more, there are no signals, which would limit any passenger train to 49 mph. So at this time there would be no speed restrictions on curves. Would love to see passenger service, but the track will take a huge investment that no one will, or can make.

A few points, from 38 years on theATSF/BNSF, worked in the north yard (Stillwater Central). The line from OKC to Tulsa was 20 mph, and even if the SLWC has upgraded it any more, there are no signals, which would limit any passenger train to 49 mph. So at this time there would be no speed restrictions on curves. Would love to see passenger service, but the track will take a huge investment that no one will, or can make.

I appreciate the corrections, thank you! I've never worked on the rails - I just have always been interested in trains and their related infrastructure. I thought I had read somewhere that there were speed restrictions on curves on the Sooner Sub, but maybe that would only apply if the overall speed limit was higher. A couple of posts on the frisco.org forums (http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/tulsa-oklahoma-city-track-profile.6746/#post-52426) notes that speed limits on this line (then called the Oklahoma Sub) historically were as high as 70mph for passenger trains - but that was in the mid 60's, back when the line was still equipped with ABS signalling and the track was kept to a higher standard of repair under the SLSF. And I had totally forgotten about the speed restrictions due to the line's lack of signals today - to be brought up to modern standards, those would need to be reinstalled and I think they'd also have to add PTC to the line too, right?

I appreciate the corrections, thank you! I've never worked on the rails - I just have always been interested in trains and their related infrastructure. I thought I had read somewhere that there were speed restrictions on curves on the Sooner Sub, but maybe that would only apply if the overall speed limit was higher. A couple of posts on the frisco.org forums (http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/tulsa-oklahoma-city-track-profile.6746/#post-52426) notes that speed limits on this line (then called the Oklahoma Sub) historically were as high as 70mph for passenger trains - but that was in the mid 60's, back when the line was still equipped with ABS signalling and the track was kept to a higher standard of repair under the SLSF. And I had totally forgotten about the speed restrictions due to the line's lack of signals today - to be brought up to modern standards, those would need to be reinstalled and I think they'd also have to add PTC to the line too, right?

Back in the day there was a whole dept on the FRISCO (and all class 1 railroads) to oversee the passenger trains. As well as section gangs for track maintenance at regular intervals. When I rode in the cab on VIA between Calgary and Winnipeg (1979), the engineer said it was up to him to know the line and he was permitted to run a bit over the speed limits to make up time. He got those covered wagons (F9Â’s I think) up to 93 mph. Anyway not only the signals, you’re correct about installing PTC. Got to ride in the cab on Amtrak when I was working out of Ark City, and the engineer was constantly busy, with 79 mph max and all the speed restrictions on various curves, as well as speeds thru the many cities. Then the ATSF had automatic train stop, electro magnetic readers above the ties at every signal, and under the front steps on the locomotive, and if the speed exceeded the signal indication a brake application was applied. Had super elevation on the curves to enhance the speed on curves, and a track department that kept it all up. When Amtrak was ended, the super elevation and the ATS was removed. Like I have said, would love to have that back, but on the Tulsa line, it is a real stretch.

I appreciate the corrections, thank you! I've never worked on the rails - I just have always been interested in trains and their related infrastructure. I thought I had read somewhere that there were speed restrictions on curves on the Sooner Sub, but maybe that would only apply if the overall speed limit was higher. A couple of posts on the frisco.org forums (http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/tulsa-oklahoma-city-track-profile.6746/#post-52426) notes that speed limits on this line (then called the Oklahoma Sub) historically were as high as 70mph for passenger trains - but that was in the mid 60's, back when the line was still equipped with ABS signalling and the track was kept to a higher standard of repair under the SLSF. And I had totally forgotten about the speed restrictions due to the line's lack of signals today - to be brought up to modern standards, those would need to be reinstalled and I think they'd also have to add PTC to the line too, right?

https://oklahoma.gov/odot/programs-and-projects0/multimodal/rail-programs.html

This is a link to the states rail plan. It was pretty recently done. If you enjoy digging through pdfs this is a good one. It talks about the 2011 study about HSR between okc and Tulsa that was following the turnpike alignment for parts of it a little bit. I know that the State of Oklahoma also bought the tracking between Midwest city and Sapulpa from bnsf in the 90s or early 2000s and then sold it on to Stillwater Central RR with requirements that they bring the track up to 60 mph standards, show that a passenger train can be run on the tracking with a trial train and then establish a passenger service with service also on leased track to stanta fe staion and Tulsa union station (https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ipd/project_profiles/ok_sooner_subdivision.aspx). The upgrades were done and the trial train was run on the route (https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2014/02/10/oklahomas-eastern-flyer-takes-first-voyage-to-midwest-city/60845911007/) (sorry for the paywall can’t find another good link) but there wasn’t ever service established. The deal was within 10 years I believe. So in 2024 the state might have the ability to claw back rights or buy back trackage and take bids for a new service or dare I say run a state service like New Mexico or partner with Amtrak if possible

Wanting to clear up some misconceptions about the SLWC track between OKC and Tulsa, made an inquiry on Sooner Rails Facebook page. A fellow employee still working said they took some rerouted trains due to bridge fire on the Avard sub, back in September. 20 mph with 17(!) 10 mph slow orders. This isn’t a judgement on the SLWC, just the facts. A passenger train, let’s get REAL.
And the second problem for any passenger train at reasonable speeds, comes from a former lawyer for the FRISCO/BN. This line is unique in the angle NE across Oklahoma to Joplin. It has the most public grade crossings of any Class 1 RR In Oklahoma. Think about the BNSF north to south, roads only cross east to west. On the old FRISCO line they cross east west, and north south. A huge liability as a great many crossings are only protected with cross buck warning signs, not lights, or gates, that alone is a huge cost and liability.

Wanting to clear up some misconceptions about the SLWC track between OKC and Tulsa, made an inquiry on Sooner Rails Facebook page. A fellow employee still working said they took some rerouted trains due to bridge fire on the Avard sub, back in September. 20 mph with 17(!) 10 mph slow orders. This isn’t a judgement on the SLWC, just the facts. A passenger train, let’s get REAL.
And the second problem for any passenger train at reasonable speeds, comes from a former lawyer for the FRISCO/BN. This line is unique in the angle NE across Oklahoma to Joplin. It has the most public grade crossings of any Class 1 RR In Oklahoma. Think about the BNSF north to south, roads only cross east to west. On the old FRISCO line they cross east west, and north south. A huge liability as a great many crossings are only protected with cross buck warning signs, not lights, or gates, that alone is a huge cost and liability.

Too bad they can't include new track as part of the I-44/Turner Turnpike rebuild

Too bad they can't include new track as part of the I-44/Turner Turnpike rebuild

The only way to have a high speed line would have been on the Turnpike right of way, in a perfect world. You think the turnpike authority would like that? And who could pay for it? Perhaps a landslide for Biden and the Feds would build as a demonstration of high speed rail in a non passenger environment. Been lucky enough to have ridden the TVG in France, Paris to Marseille. Really an amazing experience. Passing the airport outside of Lyon we easily passed a 737 coming in for a landing. And your glass of wine has barely a surface ripple.

^^^ the authority wouldn’t like that but that’s supposedly why we’re supposed to have a government that looks out for our common interests, not that only of OTA.

^^^ the authority wouldn’t like that but that’s supposedly why we’re supposed to have a government that looks out for our common interests, not that only of OTA.

Got me feeling more patriotic than ever with such a simple statement.

https://oklahoma.gov/odot/programs-and-projects0/multimodal/rail-programs.html

This is a link to the states rail plan. It was pretty recently done. If you enjoy digging through pdfs this is a good one. It talks about the 2011 study about HSR between okc and Tulsa that was following the turnpike alignment for parts of it a little bit. I know that the State of Oklahoma also bought the tracking between Midwest city and Sapulpa from bnsf in the 90s or early 2000s and then sold it on to Stillwater Central RR with requirements that they bring the track up to 60 mph standards, show that a passenger train can be run on the tracking with a trial train and then establish a passenger service with service also on leased track to stanta fe staion and Tulsa union station (https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ipd/project_profiles/ok_sooner_subdivision.aspx). The upgrades were done and the trial train was run on the route (https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2014/02/10/oklahomas-eastern-flyer-takes-first-voyage-to-midwest-city/60845911007/) (sorry for the paywall can’t find another good link) but there wasn’t ever service established. The deal was within 10 years I believe. So in 2024 the state might have the ability to claw back rights or buy back trackage and take bids for a new service or dare I say run a state service like New Mexico or partner with Amtrak if possible

So that's not looking good for that line. If all this has been done and there's still not activity on the line, well i bet the state pulls this back as a failure to complete the deal.

I'm not blind to know that there's more to it than just the line, but even with the hard work being done here, we still haven't gotten this done. I say again, if there was money to be made here, someone would already be making it.

Take a look at the BILLIONS that have been spent in California on their LA to SFO line. It's still a shadow of what it should be and it had everything going for it to be successful. Demand, the ability to beat a car by hours (and actually still beat the airplane when you consider security/wait times/etc and not just flight time). It's been what, 10 years, and they aren't really any closer to getting something with that high of a demand and population density going. It was going to have oodles of stops on the way, but being a bullet train, sill was going to make the trip in 2 hours. California is difficult to do any sort of business in so it's not apples to apples. But that also does not make this look good for OK's possibilities.

^^^ because California has ridiculous endless red tape laws, much higher construction and labor costs, and not to mention the fact that the connections to the major cities will require passing through mountains something that is no issue in Oklahoma. I-44 down turner should be a straight shot and could be done much cheaper than cali’s.

That ignores the other half of the comment about the existing line that has resources put in to it to bring it up to spec. And yet it still sits there....

The other line isn’t even worth considering. Average speed of 45MPH? That’s embarrassing.

The other line isn’t even worth considering. Average speed of 45MPH? That’s embarrassing.
The current average speed is less than 20MPH.

The current average speed is less than 20MPH.
Isn’t it 0 since no passenger trains are present?

Isn’t it 0 since no passenger trains are present?

The speed of the freight trains SLWC presently runs. There hasn’t been passenger service since 1967 or so.

I guess you didn't read the article where it said that the upgrades were done to that line to make the average speed 60......

I guess you didn't read the article where it said that the upgrades were done to that line to make the average speed 60......

So rail speed limits are kinda funny and I forgot to explain that before. The maximum allowable speed limit on any stretch of track is a function of the condition and state of repair of the track and roadbed, as well as track geometry. It is determined via regular track inspections and is regulated by the Federal Railroad Administration. There are 10 grades of track in the FRA's grading system that represent increasing levels of compliance with track geometry standards, and for each grade the FRA sets maximum allowable speeds for freight and passenger trains. When WATCO/Stillwater Central bought the Sooner Sub, they were required to inspect and repair the line to meet Class III standards, which does allow for a maximum permissible speed of 40mph for freight trains and 60mph for passenger trains - but railroads can post slower speed limits if they choose. It's sort of like how Broadway Extension is only signed for 60mph even though the road is well maintained and designed to permit higher speeds. This is a decent overview of how that all works: https://blog.railfandepot.com/your-questions-answered/do-trains-have-speed-limits/

Further complicating matters, there are additional speed restrictions for lines that do not have any sort of block signal systems installed, like the Sooner Sub. This is known as "Dark Territory", and the Feds restrict passenger trains to a maximum of 60mph and freight trains to 50mph on such lines, even if they would otherwise qualify for a higher maximum speed (49 CFR 236.0(c)(2)).

But given that Mott has gotten reports from actual railroad engineers that the line is currently 20mph with more than a dozen slow orders, that suggests to me that WATCO did the work to get it up to Class III to avoid the penalty under their purchase agreement, but then let maintenance lapse again after that provision was fulfilled. Slow orders are generally imposed when track inspections find deficiencies in sections of the track, or when curves, switches, or grade crossings require slower movements to navigate safely - sort of like road speed limits in construction zones and school zones.

The more I learn about the Sooner Sub, the more I am realizing how much work and how much money would be needed to bring this line up to par to enable competitive passenger service. It *should* be possible, given that the line hosted at least 2 passenger trains a day in each direction way back when the line was owned and operated by the Frisco railroad. But conditions on the ground now are nowhere near as good as they used to be, sadly - and there doesn't seem to be any political will to fix the problems here. Building a new line that parallels I-44, as was proposed by ODOT back in 2009 (https://www.odot.org/recovery/hs_rail/final-fra.htm) would be even more expensive - but it would remove many of the barriers to entry that the Sooner Sub represents today.

Good explanation of track speeds. The FRISCO ran a good Railroad, but remember it was built before 1900, and then, until the turnpike and interstate, was the fastest way between OKC and St.Louis